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Avira, of course, I just had one. I am just suggesting that we need to deal with non-perfect situations. And sholom might indeed override the concerns. And the Rav who suggests it is not necessarily “meikel” but can be simply correct in balancing concerns.
At the end, maybe the kid could bring a loupe and inspect his own salad.
Avira> point is that halacha allows and encourages taking tzedaka to learn. I showed you that in plain words of shulchan aruch and rema
I am looking back, I don’t see how Avira transfers allowing accepting of support for a Rav and for a sick person to an average kollel member. Also, not clear from that quote – is it accepting tzedokah, or accepting support in the form of salary for a Rav in lieu of time he is not working. And accepting tzedoka from non-Jews. First, you seem to be stretching the ruling too far, and second you are not acknowledging your stretching.
and, at the end, there is also a question what is wrong with following S’A l’hathila approach for healthy people – work a little and learn the rest? This is a problem similar to what Chabad has – not only the approach is questionable, but the insistence that other approaches are invalid. It may be a problem inherent to all modern mass movements – you need to convince and motivate the followers and the easiest way is to call everyone else hazerim. Ain’t emes though, so you won’t get Hashem’s haskomah.
> says anything about Mussar as Rav Yisroel Salanter explained it
Someone already asked R Salanter about this. He said – in the Gemora. Questioner: I can’t find your answers in my gemora. R Salanter: they are in _my_ gemora.
conservatives started in Europe, I think.
Avira, of course, but so is rov cabbages, at least the ones I buy. But coffee seems to be not aware of all sicknesses cows might have, those mentioned in gemora and the modern ones caused by their unhealthy lifestyle and modern stress.
coffee, you do realize that you probably ate some treifa from whatever hashgoha. I presume your shochet checked the lungs, but how about all other possible problems that Gemora mentions?
Did your cow went a full physical? did she have heart problems, high blood pressure, diabetes, covid? Did she eat fruits and vegies and exercised daily according to modern recommendations? Likelihood that each particular cow was already treifa is pretty high. And the more different cows you consumed – the higher the chance. If you ate a hot dog – you probably ate pieces of 100 different cows in one bite.
I also vote that historically C- came from R-. That does not deny that there is some gray zone between MO and C.
A better question is – where did R come from? Usual response is to blame Haskala, Napoleon, etc. But why we do not see anyone from Bnei Brak becoming Reform currently? Because, over time, we developed counter-measures and defenses. We did not have those defenses when R started.
We had Rabbis denouncing them, we had R Hirsh trying to defend remnants of his community, but probably not enough. R Salanter thought that nothing could be done. At some point, he went to Western Europe, abandoning Lita, saying that it is possible to affect people who are at the bottom but not the ones who are still on the way from the top to the bottom. I am still not sure that there was no better way – modern yeshivas, not just one volozhin, chabad houses, etc. So, you can say that 18-19th century O- Jews caused, in part, Reform.
Sq Root, where does he not get the credit? Sure in the eyes of Hashem and probably his friends also.
And how is it different from a regular FFB person who goes to the yeshiva after high school?
Is it that he (a) pays and loses money v. kids whose parents pay? (b) he chose himself rather than under parental and social pressure?AAQ>> “BLACK-HA(UGH)TINESS”
Avram > <vehemently disagrees>Ugh, I thought it was a good pun. If it does not apply to you, then it is not intended for you!
I am referring here to people changing their family/community mesorah based on some theories, however elevated. Why does a grandfather in a turban or in a beret need to endure his grandson in a hat just because the grandson won’t find a shidduch otherwise?
here is a related mesorah: R Naftali Amsterdam, who actually had a smicha, was dressing so lowly that his wife complained to his teacher, r Salanter and the Rav paskened that while preventing haughtiness is definitely a good middah, but doing what a wife wants is chesed that overrides working on your middos, so he somewhat upgraded his dress code.
When R Amsterdam (who, I think, never was in Amsterdam) arrived to EY unannounced to prevent excitement and went to the house of his chaver R Itzele Peterburger (who taki was a Rav in that city while on vacation from his humbleness), the neighbors said – Hello Rabbo, to which he replied – I am not a Rabbi.
Now, my question is: why did they know he is a Rabbi if he was not dressed in a black hat?
as we are speaking about chumros, what do you think about stopping on a freeway rest area and using a bathroom in a McDonalds? R Yaakov Kamenetsky has a chumra about it. What do you think?
It is not automatic to have one teacher. R Meir had two (or three) teachers. He tried out w R Akiva first, did not hap it, went to R Yishmael, and then went back to R Akiva. But these two illustrious teachers were not enough – he would also run after Acher’s horse on Shabbos. And then he married Talmida Chachama, and learned from her also.
Yserb > We cannot just read books (no matter how holy) and have that be our Rebbi, we need a person who is dynamic and understands his talmid and the world.
Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to express, thanks for clarifying it. I am comparing a written approach (there is a nice greek word for that that I misremember) and oral, with latter being passed through the people.
Avira > Every lther talmid in the world will tell you that he said it was bedieved.
If this were about eruvin, your argument has weight. but about milk – no. One might think that the sons, who are Talmidei Chachamim, were exposed multiple times to situations where milk was discussed at home. Even if they did not halav hacampaniesat home, I am sure there was a simcha somewhere where this was an issue.
coffee, interesting stories.
In the first one, Rav may understand better than the kid how important relationship with mechutonim are long-term, so it might be time for the kulos. All concerns about mechutonim kashrus level shold have been addressed before the shiduch.
In the 2nd story, Rabonim may have relied on hazoka – everything from that mshgiach or around them is always kosher. And maybe, also, any sofek could create a medauraite problem of ruining the simcha.
what was that about a signed letter that was forged (i.e. had parts that were not shown to the signer)?!
If true, this is beyond the Pale, and these people should be put in cherem and sent from the Pale to Siberia. Where is the Czar when we need him?!We insist on eating hot food to show we are not tzdukim. Maybe same applies to eruv?
One interesting argument I see in this discussion – if some shita is constructed in a way that invalidates all eruvin (or, if I can expand – invalidates what was normal practice before) – then it is apikoirosus, not chumras. Thus, if there is a kosher eruv, one must carry. There is probably a loner list of activities that one must similary do because of people asurim what used to be matir. I’ll leave it to others to suggest them.
Yserb, thanks for the explanation, but then it comes down to who you consider the klal: everyone marginally observant, shomer shabbat, those who keep same humros/kulos as you, went to same yeshiva, etc
Some people decrease this circle 🔵 and think it is a chumra. See discussion between r Yannai and a guy who ate his food without knowing birkat hamazon.
YS > However, speeches and letters are all about specific audiences and to take those speeches and treat them as halacha applicable l’oilom vo’ed is not a proper mehalech. What worked in the Shtetl doesn’t work in the USA. What worked for Russian immigrants in 1970 doesn’t work for Israeli Yeshiva bachurim in 2023.
This is an interesting point. Indeed, we historically have this balance between written and oral sources. There is a lot of Gemora built from maase Rav and it is an appropriate way to learn halakha, better than the books. Obviously, the Teacher should be someone who values what he does and says. You seem to imply that we are “better than that” now – when we have books and searchable databases … I do not fully agree. And a lot of uniformization, black-ha(ugh)tiness, and loss of minhagim are due to peple abandoning their local teachers.
So, chabad, like everyone else, have a right to follow on their teacher. Now, the way they do it is sometimes bizarre, and also now the generation who did not see him in person.. ok, so they hear stories from their parents …
sechel > just learn chassidus
why don’t you also learn Divrei Yoel, R Salanter, R Hirsh, R Soloveichik, and then intelligently discuss how they relate to your chassidus so that we all could appreciate it?
Avira > chabad just asks people if they’re Jewish and plops it on them,
So, if you feel you can help here, stand nearby and interrogate these potential yidden to help the busy shluchim? It could be a conveyer –
one chabadnik asks “excuse me, are you Jewish”? yes go to the right, no goes to the left
Avira stands on the right, asks them about their grandmother, checks out answers on his laptop, passes them further to the right to the 2nd and 3rd chabadnikim who put shel rosh veshel yad at the same time.Having a mashgiach criminal is an appropriate mida kneged mida for being a convicted criminal.
smiler, I am really interested in what your Rav thinks about your idea, whether he agrees or not, or says it is mutar. Please keep us posted.
n0 > I can’t think of anything outside the Yeshiva that would help one be more mindful. Can you?
yes, hard facts. Getting low grade on SAT/LSAT/GRE, getting rejected at job interview, effort to get to the train on time very day, fired from a job for being late or rude to customers, hard (mental) work required to either do a job or come up with something new – all of that might give a person objective feedback and impetus to change. I am not saying that this cannot be learned in yeshiva, but I think general educational trend is “lake wabegon” where “everyone is above average”. And I am not saying that everyone will learn from school of hard knocks – some might simply blame anti-semites for their problems, as the Mishna says – not every socher becomes chacham.
Just a personal illustration. I thought I am reasonably polite to people at work, until I had a colleague (who himself trained himself from a lowly background) who would know by name, say hello first, and cheer up every guard and other invisible people … I hope I learned something from that.
mdd1, thanks for your learnt input. Presumably from the bathroom?
I don’t think it is a problem that Chabad is learning seforim of their Rebbe seriously. A response that sure many gedolim wrote something and this is light reading is strange. Obviously, leaders of our time address issues relevant to our time and it is worth studying in depth. Previous Torah is of course important and we can’t just red recent responsa without learning earlier material, but we are not resolving last centuries’ issues, but the current ones!
So, a possible problem arises when someone insists that everyone should learn their derech in a significant way, otherwise, why can’t they learn their own Rebbe and share that Torah with us?
n0, I am ok with this more general, Hirshian, definiton, but pirkei avot seems also to focus on specific – both by referring malacha, and also later in 3:6 mentioning derech eretz as the opposite of sorts of Torah learning, if it dominates.
In both general and specific cases, Maharal, I think, explains this that a person needs to be fulfilled in both areas to be a complete person.
n0 > He should stay in yeshiva and be mindful of others
Great suggestion. But what takes? If he learned a masechta and did not start implementing it yet, why would he suddenly change? In other words, is Bava Kamma addressing someone who already learned and somehow did not start doing!?
Anon, Jewish history under Russian empire predates Alexander. Russians were pressuring Jews into assimilation and submission to a centralized system early on. In Vilno, Misnagdim and Chasidim were appealing to Russ. gov. against each other, and this was of course used by Russians to divide and conquer. Similar to Pompey coming to make peace for Chashmonaim.
At some point, R. Salanter was offered a position as a head of Russian-led educational system. He hesitated, thinking that he would have a positive effect on it, but at the end his, and others, decision was to totally disassociate from the Russian-forced school and rabbinical system, so that nobody would confuse an appointed “official” rabbi and a real one.
There were also several visits by groups of gedolim to Petersburg, trying to argue for various leniencies in schooling.
mdd > Belarus and Lithuania were parts of the Pale.
of course, all Polish areas occupied by Russia were the Pale, Russia proper did not let Jews in from very early in Moscow history. I don’t think this was the case in other slavic and eastern european lands: Jews settled in Poland, Belorussia, Kievan Rus, Crimea. Not sure, were there any other countries in Eastern Europe who did not allow Jews? (in Western: England for a time)
Mdd1, several issues here:
1) I quoted numbers of victims from recent research. I have no independent opinion on that, but this seems to be more fact-based research than oral history from that time.2) not sure how history of Litvish/Polish ownership of Slav regions is relevant here. It has nothing to do with Russia, aka Moscovia. I don;t think we need to resolve battles between Kiev, Poland, etc. If we take a side, it should be Jewish Khazars 🙂
3) my main point was that this Ukrainian cruel rebellion was the beginning of Russian occupation of Polish (and thus Jewish) areas, leading to several centuries of difficult Jewish history, including pogroms, cantonists, etc, etc. Note that Ukrainians or whoever they were at the time, Kozaks, peasants wanted to be “partners” with the Czar and soon understood that they made a deal with the devil, but it was too late.
4) the essence of pogrom (russian word) is not just violence, but that it was organized and had government support. So, even if Ukrainian peasants attacked Jews (obviously, not Russian peasants as Jews were not allowed to live in Russia proper with exceptions), it was impossible to defend as the police will arrest the Jews who would try to fight.
5) Jews consistently took the Polish side during the latter rebellions against Russia. The only pro-Russian group seemed to be Chabad, with Alter Rebbe deciding that Napoleons come and go, but Russian Czar will still be there … and anyway safer from haskala .. He passed away running away from Napoleon
Smile, thanks for clarifying your position. Let me propose a difference:
1) in case of price and quality, there are established halochos to what degree one should favor the Jewish store. And if the store owner is T’Ch or/and an Ehrliche Yid, I am sure people will push it further. Still, if I prfer to feed my kids fresh food, I’ll go where it is.
2) in your case of a chumra, you have a halachik balance between being machmir l’Hashem and being supportive of another Yid. As many say, as Hashem also wants you to support the Yid, the halachik decision is to favor the Yid v. a chumra that becomes simply inapplicable in this case. You literally have nothing to lose – the Yid is happy, and Hashem is happy. Why aren’t you!?
This is just a milder form of a chosid shoteh who would not touch a woman to save her from drowning. Evidently, Hashem wants him to touch her in this case, so he has nothing to be machmir about.
n0, Derech Eretz is indeed not “sustenance” in a sense that it is not about what you earn, but about the process of working. It is mentioned next to melacha and to oskey btzibur. This does not match well with the other definition of derech eretz, as in middos. Maybe I misunderstand your statement, please explain yourself.
n0 > Learning them isn’t what makes one a chossid.
n0, thanks for the correction, of course it is “doing” (lekayam, BK 30a). But that requires learning (lo am haaretz hasid) first, and as we are discussing learning, I got carried away and misquoted… My apology.
Of course, the next question is whether learning leads to doing it, I did not want to run away from that question. So, say someone learns nezikin, but did not accustom himself to do it all the time. Should he skip avos and go to brochos, or should he first take a semester off and practice nezikin?
If we take a high road and say – mishna is meant for someone who already learnt everything, and now needs to focus his maasim in one area, it is still unclear – was he simply learning before and not doing any of them? maybe, with f/t learning and no opportunities to interact with people, and now preparing for that?
Hm, even a goodbye generates a controversy here! But maybe see this is a coffee house as it is, where people come simply when they need a sip or to say something, no dramatic announcements needed.
re: shaharis. People used to daven early and then going (walking or riding a donkey) to work. Unless they were bnei melachim. Some still do this, but others daven at more convenient times. Maybe we should search for halochos for bnei melachim – were they supposed to also starve?
common, the real reason I am suggesting to go ask a Rav is Rambam in halochos deos that says when a person is unhealthy he needs to go to the doctor, when he has problems with deos, he needs to go to a chacham. That is what I I think I meant, not simply get a psak on a particular question.
Interesting dichotomy: when we discuss the Pesach aspect of it, there are learnt references. When we discuss l’havero aspect – everyone is wandering in the dark.
n0> You don’t understand retail at all!
yes, I am not in retail, B’H. you are right about competitiveness. But there are still pockets of monopolies – selling in poor neighborhoods where people do not drive to Costcos, government contracting … kosher stores in small towns used to be such, dented by Costcos and other stores now selling many kosher products and online shopping, but still they have their captured audience of older or uninformed customers who sometimes pay over the roof.
common > AAQ, “so you should probably ask a Rav …”
You don’t believe in that.Stop trolling me. I explained already – I do not believe in Daas Torah. Why? Because I asked the Rav and he said so.
> Cute theory. It didn’t convince me an iota.
what Rabban Gamliel is too outdated?
Avira > so all the working amei haaretz have impeccable manners?
I was pondering the same question. hillel in Avos 2:6 is pretty sure that bor is not yere het and am haaretz is not chasid, a shy person can not learn and an angry person can not teach (my kids had a question on the latter – so how do we call angry teachers!?), but then a strange expression (my translation) “_not everyone_ who increases in selling becomes wiser”. It does not say – “a businessman can not be wise”. So, this seems to be saying – as you do – that while it is reasonable to presume that engaging in business will make one smarter, it is not always, especially of you overdo it. Unless, Hillel is using this for irony to mock those who think that selling is beneficial, and it went over my head. As a reference, Alter from Novordok would teach his students chochma in addition to mussar – “someone who can not buy a wagon of wood without being swindled must be lacking in his ruchniyous also”, referring to Rivka and Eliezer’s camels.
I also did not mean this as a general statement, but specifically for your situation and what you are lacking. Also, most modern jobs are close to trades than business and that is what I recommend (even as I am nominally in business, most of my day is spent on tradecraft rather than running the business). Yitzele Peterburger married his son to a daughter of a craftsman and people were appalled. He replied – if he were to mayy into a shopkeeper who possibly swindled a lot of people, this would be ok, but somehow a person whom Hashem loves for earning his bread honestly is not ok … Not sure whether this was in Yerushalaim or Kovno. And no mention of marrying into a rabbinical family either ;).
jackk, thanks, B’H
> I just would rather give a yid parnassah but only if he gives me the products that I want.
“I want” seems like such a goyishe attitude, you should probably go to walmart lehathila!
Posters here raised good objections that this chumra is a kula towards the Jewish sellers, so you should probably ask a Rav …
In defense of the poster though – if you are in a place where a Jewish grocer raises prices thanks to the monopoly in the Jewish commuity, you might be justified going to walmart not only because it is 20% cheaper for you, but in order to break the excessive pricing for the whole community.
sechel, you need to absorb the idea that shulchan aruch harav is one of many respectable seforim over last several centuries. If this happen to be your group’s leader – gezunte heig, learn it more than Mishna Berura, but there is no reason to look for a conspiracy of other people not focusing on it. If you want others interested in your Torah – behave and talk in a way that other people want to emaulate your ways…
Historically, chasidim separated from ashkenazim of their time, change minhagim, weakened kahal, diverted taxes through separate shechita, etc. So, it would not be reasonable for you to demand that others follow your opinions. You can ask or persuade, but not demand.
By the way, current estimates of Jewish casualties are lower than it was before – in tens of thousands rather than 100,000 and higher, primarily because Jewish communities in Ukraine were small and dispersed, as the Jews were managing Polish farms, and probably had 50,000 people total. By those times, it was understandable that stories and rumors created an impression of an even bigger suffering that it was, given the high proportional devastation.
At the same time, this rebellion led to further occupation of Poland by Sweden and Russia, leading to huge losses both in Polish and Jewish population immediately then, and eventually bringing Jews into Russian empire, with all the suffering that this entailed. So, maybe the focus of remembering 1648 is in a longer term effect rather than immediate.
WSJ has a long profile of the Soros-jr. He is more pro-political than his father, so expect even more support that might go to pro-democracy movements in 3rd world and Dems in US and leftists in South America, I think. On the other hand, he “acknowledges” some Jewish holidays, contrary to his father. Presumably non-Jewish given WASP last name of his mother.
which is mostly the same as niftarim from the wars.. does this override the minhag of using the date the person was last seen?
whether someone will switch to other Republicans is a separate issue. If T wins the primary, the voters will have the same choice as before. Biden has more reasons to lose votes, after all the national and international upheavals he created or slept through.
for people looking for chumros – why not do chumros in this issues?
If you are not currently able to fully avoid being supported, try to minimize relying on kulos. Say, return part of government subsidy back to the government. Even a small part, just as a statement of intent. Then see if you can increase that. Consider all your expenses with a fresh eye as Alter from Novordok did – if I live at someone else’ expense, how can I reduce my spending and return the money?
It is not just tannaim and amoraim who paid their own way, pretty of modern T’Chachamim did that (including not working as a Rav). Chofet Chaim sold his books and had a story. R Salanter refused Rabbinical position. R Yitzele Peterburger served as a Rav but then went back to having a pub with his wife, if I am not mistaken. Someone asked him whether pouring mashke was better than being a Rav?! He said – of course. I can think of Torah while filling glasses, but I can not while dealing with balabosim.
I know there is no Gemora on pirkei avos and we do not pasken from the Mishna. Still, how do your kids learn Avos 2:2 that Torah goes well with derech eretz and has bad side effects otherwise? Avos describes human reality. So, even if you have a psak l’kulah here, how do you deal with side effects?
Maybe ask your kid or maybe you are teaching yourself, will be interested to know.