Always_Ask_Questions

YSL1234> Today I work as a programmer and learn as much as possible.

congrats. But this is a good question – seemingly not many people can hold middle ground. You either do not work at all, or work “full time”, that in USA means often overtime. What stops, say, a computer programmer to work part-time 20 hours/week? Is it pressure from the employer or contracting house? Or is it internal – hard to stop when you have a lucrative job going. Computer programming is often months-long projects. How about a 3-month full time contract and then 3-month-long learning? anyone tried such “seder”?

Teaching your own kids and saving on tuition and gas.

Working as Uber driver on most lucrative routes, like nights and airports.

I am not sure how this works, but I think most drivers rush into the next ride. You can sit and learn waiting for a more lucrative, or closer to you, order.

Also, Uber has a benefit – free college tuition for Arizona State U online. That will let you transition smoothly into the $100/hour 1-hour a week role as an accountant or a lawyer, or a software developer.

his brother Nathan built Lakewood Hotel because, I think, his visiting relatives, as Jews, had hard time finding hotel rooms.

At the end, learning a maseches well is probably the best thing one could do to show respect to his parent. Maybe a masechet that reflects the parent’s values.

TLIK, the words people use reflect values. so, if we adopt wrods without thinking, we adopt and propagate those values.

People who value word “frum” typically include in that those who are not nice to other people or break societal norms. Those who value “erliche” start shouting “hillul hashem”.
Chofetz Chaim, for example, writes bitterly that people consider some aspects bein adam l’havero “etza tova” rather than halakha that is as strict as kashrus.

Chofetz Chaim also brings another dichotomy: “people say that in our times, one needs to be frum, but I say – you need to be klug, klug, and then frum”. That is, acting with sechel is the first defense – and the second – and chumros and obstinance the third.

Indeed, Sephardim (or more precise – non-Ashkenazim, they didnt have to be in Spain) did not have haskala and all machlokets that came out of it. Of course, they lived side-by-side with Karaims centuries earlier.

“Charedi” is not a synonym of what was Judaism before, it is one of the modern responses to current condition.

Amirican, thanks for R Moshe’s quote. I heard this expression as an “litivishe saying”, but was not sure whether it has right pedigree or comes from some chiloni sources. Glad to hear that R Moshe approved it. I actually suggested ehrlich instead of frum when kids started using the latter term before I heard the expression, and I am glad that my intuition has a good source! thanks, again.

There is a universal like/dislike button at the bottom – it is called “submit”. It is not a Jewish way to have majority by vote in lieu of a discussion! I am OK with a vote button after, say, 70 opinions are expressed on a topic.

BT movement is also due to Tzahal, it started in large after six day war that made some Jews re-evaluate their positions. And Chabad was there to help them.

> poskim are clear that one who only has a short amount of time to learn should learn halacha

I learned from a Lakewood Rav that dividing time in 3 parts – Torah/Mishna/Gemora – means that all 3 need to be finished at the same time, that is one needs more time spent on Gemora, and he meant all 3 areas in a general sense, that is Tanach/Halacha/Ability to reason, not daf yomi. I saw this in writing also, but can’t recall the source right now.

Avira, re: letter, my source is a footnote in a sefer that I am not 100% sure is unbiased. This is a full footnote, not abridged. So, if you need to check out further, you would need to find the letter in an archive. But N0 seems to be pointing to more accessible writings.

anon > , it’s funny but you don’t mention the largest reason for the need for a second salary. Yeshiva tuition

this is true, but you can look for additional options. Wife can stay at home while kids are small, if she likes it; no need for “universal pre-k”, kids can chant alef-beis at home and with friends. Some parents are educated enough to teach some of the classes also. There are cheaper schools with inferior general education that you can supplement at home with online classes or full-fledged schools. Time you have with your kids is worth the effort.

sechel> conmen practice was for the husband to work, and the wife to stay home,

My family still did that until kids grew up, and then my wife switched from stay-home to WFH.

Chaim Volozhiner was not yeshivish, he was Rosh Yeshiva.

I agree with those that this is cultural/aspirational. It may lead someone to be better than they’d be otherwise, or it may make someone think that dressing up the right way is good enough, no need to spend hours learning and years to improve your middos.

CTL, thanks for a correction. My family was running businesses in areas with less developed markets. At one of the businesses, it became imperative to only use family as employees to avoid being arrested by out-of-control “workers” for “exploiting” them.

But being good to workers was not out of character for Jewish businessmen. A friend told me a story of his family’s business that was overtaken by Soviets, then Nazis, then again Soviets. When the owner came back home from Siberian labor camp, his family gone,, his factory equipment gone, the goyishe workers offered to work for a year for free if he were to rebuild the factory. He replied that he saw enough in the camp to understand that there will be no free business and left.

Avira, I was concerned that you misuse Rema with an emphasis that Torah debates presumes striving for Emes rather than showing off sources for your side. And the more you know, the more is your responsibility to stay with emes. This is not controversial, this is throughout mesora.

On Igros Moshe, there are several teshuvos. I looked just at one, I think he is suggesting several possible shitos – whether we accept that Rambam, and your conclusion is only under one of them.

I personally have no questions on R Moshe’s shita at the time & place he was. It is hard to put oneself into a different circumstance or to prove that to others, but I was, for about a year, part of a remote community that had no leadership and learning, and I spent a year running a school’s Jewish dept, leaving math to others, even as I was more qualified to run the math dept. I don’t even remember who was running the math dept, I had my priorities straight.

Avira,
I was going by a secondary source that, upon further reading, might not be fully unbiased. Looking for hard evidence, I see only one specific reference that is obscure, but meaning seems to be clear.

letter to Joseph Apfel, 1956 – suggesting not to translate Frankel’s Darkei Hamishnah: I am afraid that zealots in England will attack you because they consider him min and apikoires because R Shimshon Rafael Hirsh battled against him.

I think R Hirsh’s disagreement w/ scientific (Wissenschaft) method is not just w/ Frankel but also with other Orthodox school of R Ezriel Hildesheimer. R Hildesheimer though also considered Frenkel treif, so you may want to analyze their differences to understand Frankel positioning.

And even further, it seems that later German sources – R Weinberg – quote Frankel with more respect, maybe because there is less urgency in the machlokes. So, it may be true that at the same time, Frankel initiated a movement that let people astray, and have some valid points to make.
Why is this important? Maybe because we should not through babies into the mikvah: just because someone disagreeable mentions an idea, does not always mean that the idea is wrong.

If we want to compare attitude of inheriting positions to old times, see Shmuel Alef 2:22,
Shmuel Alef 8:3, Divrei Hayamim II 12:1 how it worked for those with nevuah. Some interpret even Gen 27:41 and similar as a caution against strict inheritance rules. Gemora takes yichus into account in Berachos 27b, but see Menahos 53a, Moed Katan 25a.

CTL, my family background is somewhat similar to yours, but your family were smart (or pessimistic) enough to do their business in US where they can afford showing their chesed side. One of my ancestors shared ownership of his businesses with the workers (presumably at the early time of growing worker movement) and soon was kicked out of the business. Next generations learned the lesson and tended to do the opposite – have family members in business. Your family also had family member in business: voted D- and shared their wealth, but did not socialize the ownership, right? None of the “you did not build that” thing?

see Sotah 21, Rambam hilhos teshuva 10:2, Netivos Olam, Netiv Ahavat Hashem perek 2, Alei Shur v. 2 p. 152

n0, a fair point. It was more popular to get by in older time by doing simpler things. I don’t think it was completely easy – there are many gemoras discussing details of farming, and it is clear that even what we consider the most boring job of a farmer (which maybe 80% of people were engaged in) has a lot of things to think about. If you think, when we talk about “Creative” jobs (emulating the Creator), the farmer is literally the one who creates new plants from seeds. Maybe that is the reason we have so many mitzvos for the farmers – from bikurim to hamotzi – so that we don’t get carried away by our own creativity. There is a reverse joke also: a farmer shows his field and is reminded – you did this with G-d’s help. He says – sure, sure – and then shows uncultivated land – and this is what He did without me. But back to your main argument:

so, first, it is still possible to earn money while keeping your mind on the Gemora – gas station, store attendant … there is nothing embarrassing here. See R Yitzele Peterburger above. Maybe moral hazard is in play – people can get more in terms of money and insurance from social program and other support than from earning a living. This is a well-documented problem in black community.

2nd, not everyone earned their living in simple jobs. Merchants (not every socher is smart, pirkei avos). Proper ones would limit their activity to what is needed. I heard a story about Persian Jews who would travel for 2 weeks to get some rare carpets, then come back, sell them, and learn the rest of the year. Can this be done in modern professions? For sure, accountants can work tax season only. Maybe lawyers and real estate agents can.

3rd, in our times, it is possible to choose a kosher profession, where you are not wasting time to earn livelihood but actually doing something that Hashem wants you to (in fact, even a farmer does, but you can always argue that a goy next door can do that). How about being a surgeon, a pediatrician, invent something in medical technology [reportedly, when someone in Slobodka made fun of Einstein, Alter called him (a student, not Albert) an idiot]. I asked a Rav whether a surgeon deserves recognition for chesed, he said – if his motivation is for chesed, not for money (he can still get paid). So, it is possible.

Now, is any of the above easy? Not, of course. Ok, so these are harder mitzvos.

Dear Mod, I am very sympathetic with your situation – you are the only one(s) have the pain reading all the stuff that does not pass the thresholds. I still follow my (Kotzker) Rebbe who suggested that the “best” way to achieve sholom is by throwing emes away …

in this case, I am particularly heartbroken that you chose to keep my worthless opinion posted, while censoring long list of references to Tanach and Gemora that I collected. I am sad that, admittedly, my in-you-face way of posing what I think is a serious question, you felt a need to delete the words of scripture as you felt the honor of your teachers needed protection.

I feel like Eli Hakohen, whose story I referred to – he survived the bad news about his family, but not about Hashem’s ark … I can only think that you mis-copied-pasted and meant to delete my opinion and post Tanach quotes. If this is what happened, pls remove my words and restore the words of Torah.

If it was in my face it wouldn’t have been a problem. Your ‘long list of references to Tanach’ are often, as above, followed by opinion on what probably was meant or flippantly applying a tzadik to your present day scenario in ways lacking respect of people of their stature. It was those opinions which I had deleted.

Thanks for asking.

There is a ref above to halakha favoring Rav’s son for the position. Could you refer to this halakha, I’m interested to hear it. I am familiar though with multiple references favoring meritocracy: R Yehuda refusing to see someone who is “20 gen from Ezra” – I’ll see him on his own merits, but if not …
selections of Roshei yeshiva based on comparison of ocean v. harif. There is a gemora where two T’Ch are taken to burial to EY over a narrow bridge, and the idea that Rav ben Rav has priority over Rav ben non-Rav is condemned.

Yes, there is a concern of non-selection of R Akiva instead of Raban Gamliel because of his lowly yichus.