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ZSK, you are leading an interesting question: when/if charedim become a majority or a significant minority of voters – would they demand all, or most, electricity to be shut off for shabbat? Or going to the original question, would they require police chasing car thieves on bicycles? I think you quoted RZ teshuvos, are there charedi teshuvos on this issue? Even if they are not currently involved in running a state, a charedi policeman could ask such a shailah.
yankel> those rabbanims integrity and yirat shamayim totally precludes that from being the case
It may be so. I looked closely at the case of cherem of making a gadol and it seems clear that the author has great esteem of the gadol who banned the book and still describes his reliance on information from people around him. Consider this as they call in math “a proof of existence” for rabbanim making bad decisions based on bad facts. The usual explanation is that talmidei chachamim are perfect halachik machines – but they depend on the reliability of inputs, so GIGO applies. Chassidiche rebbes might overcome this and have direct access to ruach hakodesh, so if the signers were not just Litivishe, their signatures are reliable regardless of bad information they might have relied upon.
More generally, and without taking a position here, people who try to be pro-active and resolve new issues, put themselves at risk of both mistakes and accusations. Applies to many in history, both who are now roundly condemned and those who are eventually vindicated, see Rambam, Moses Mendelsohn, for example.
ZSK> I never said those Rabbonim had no integrity or yiras shamayim. What I said is that no one immune from biases, not even highly esteemed Rabbonim.
and this is a good example how information flows … imagine that ZSK is a well-known talmid chochom (and maybe he is) and a gadol will ask his close student Yankel about ZSK, ending with ZSK put in cherem. So, Yankel will tell his teacher what he said here. Would it be gadol’s fault that he listened to Yankel?
ZSK> The Rabbonim could certainly have told the outlets to turn the level of vitriol down and to be respectful in their criticism – which they did not.
more likely, that outlets were not listening to the rabbonim, and maybe rabbonim knew their limits already. There are lots of cases where rabbinical opinions show up late: turns out R Landau is against demonstrations. A year after covid after so many talmidim infected their revered teachers, we found out that R Zilberstein was sitting alone in his room all this time and then came to give a lecture behind a giant plastic fence. What stopped charedi press from posting pictures of the Rav daily before other rabbonim were niftar?
YYA> Let’s focus on the core issue. Secular Zionism was a highly organized and targeted campaign to destroy Judaism and replace it with a secular national identity.
First, this does not contradict my ramblings. I am not fully condemning the separation that Chazon Ish created (nor I am saying it was the only way to go). It lead to a lot of successes in preserving and expanding observant community. I am just calling to understand what the negatives are. I am not sure Chazon Ish would disagree – he used the word “midbar”. He knew that wandering in midbar is not for your guf and neshomoh. He just did not see other choice. So, logically, by now, 80 years later – 2x more than Hashem’s measure – it is even less healthy. You don’t even have great-grandparents who remember life outside the desert. As an example, when Soviet Jews were coming in 1970s – they had no memory of Jewish life after 60 years of communist erasure, except Jews coming from Lithuania and such – who had “only” 30 years – and they still remembered.
So, I am calling for honest diagnosis of accumulated problems leading to treatment. That’s all.
ZSK> Regarding use of electricity not being public order – it is public order if you consider the consequences of no electricity in the modern era, which would be utter pandemonium.
I agree. Yes, public order would require electricity for hospitals and even to make sure those driving on shabbos do not bump into each other. It does not mean that someone has to use it personally, so charedim seem to be ok here as long as they keep medical equipment for their own sick connected,
ZSK> As for starting a solar panel business in Israel, the IEC will work with people who want to install solar panels to reduce their power bills (and maybe charge batteries for use over Shabbos
right, but this sends electricity back into the same grid. I think you should be able to use your own solar panels or connect them between nearby houses to be totally “off the grid”. Meah solar panels over Meah shaarim.
Shimon> We are sheep for the slaughter and proud of it,
I think you are going too far, while protesting against secular movements that were destroying Judaism 100 years ago (and full picture – it was not only zionism, it was bundism, socialism, communism, local-country nationalism …). We suffer when we have to, but we defend ourselves, either through presents or through fight when need to and are able to. This is Yaakov/Esav 101.
Shimon> Don’t tell me stories about “protecting Jews”. There are plenty of Jews protected by the US Army (including those in Israel…)
So, Jews – and non-Jews – serving in the American army deserve their level of respect. How does this contradict the fact that IDF protects Jews in Israel? I did not read this whole long thread, so I may be not following this. Are you in the camp of “Jews could have lived in other places”? This is not true historically – before WW2 and after WW2, there was no place in US or UK for all Jews of Europe. Same for Sephardi and Soviet Jews, majority of whom found a save place in Israel. Undoubtedly, early zionists and state of Israel saved Jewish lives. Furthermore, in terms of assimilation, Israeli Jews are fairing much better than those who settled elsewhere. Even those who are not religious, have a high chance of marrying someone Jewish.
Shim re:Herzl > He saw antisemitism as a useful tool to convince Jews to join his secular nationalistic project. He said so to many non-Jewish leaders as well… More like a terrorist setting your proverbial building on fire to force out the children and kidnap them.
He was a journo shocked by the Dreyfus affair from his beliefs in successful assimilation. Why are assigning to him some nefarious motivations? He was telling non-Jewish leaders whatever he thought would work best to achieve his goals. He was a total ignoramus, but he was not a professional politician who needed to create a job for himself.
Shimon > Actually, secular Zionism began as a response to the non-Jewish nations refusal to ALLOW the Jews to escape their identity.
I think there was an argument in non-Jewish world about it. Napoleon wanted to assimilate Jews (his question to his Sanhedrin: are you our brothers? willl you let us marry your sisters?), Marx initial impulse was to blame Jews for capitalism and “assimilate world from Jews” in response to someone else who wanted to “assimilate Jews”.
n = 2, x = 1, y = 2, z = 2
2 = 2
maybe you missed something in the riddle?A question on Taanis: so the good doctor gets 7x visits from yeshiva shel maaleh over Abaye.
First, why such unusual “yeshivish” distinction – not Eliyahu talking to him, or golden table in olam habo. I guess this also means that he is not an Am Haaertz DESPITE (tm YYA) being a doctor.
Why are they visiting? do they ask him questions? do they teach him? do they have a pleasere talking to a doctor with middos?And one more: surely in the shamaim they are aware that bloodletting is not as helpful as advertised, so they good doctor might have killed a number of patients – and they still respect him “for the effort”. Or maybe they were coming so often – to warn him not to do bad medicine and save his zechus from the gehinom that was awaiting other doctors!?
YYA> He wasn’t a Tzaddik BECAUSE he was a doctor. DESPITE being a doctor,
I will agree that he is not a tzadik “because he was a doctor” – it is clear that he is a special doctor, not like others. But “despite” is taking it too far – gemorah clearly values his services, otherwise who cares that he did not charge … he is special because he used his skills in the right way. It is not just tzniuyut – he does not charge fixed fee, respects dignity by not seeing who pays what, helps young T’Ch who do not have a job yet. judge pretend-swindlers l’tzad zechut, I probably skipped a couple of middos. Maybe I can accept “despite” as – a doctor has an opportunity to charge high fees and be dismissive of patients, he does not do that.
This easily transfers to our life: I asked a related shayla once – why are people visiting cholim are recognized as baaley chesed, while people doing heart operations are seen as “professionals”. The answer (from a yeshivishe rov): if a doctor’s priority is money, then he is a professional; if his priority is chesed, then he is baal chesed. Along the line of the gemorah. I am sure there are people in IDF who are there on a power trip, and there are those who are for the right reasons.
Shimon> what their ‘success rate’ is.
I agree it is not about success rate. Specifically, for chabad more than for others, there are people who end up not in a good place, some OTD or OTD children or very frum but still crazy. The question to ask – what would happen with that person without the intervention. He would probably still be drinking just non-kosher… there might be a detrimental effect on the community, but a particular individual almost always benefits. I don’t think I know baalei teshuva who took a worse path than the one they were following to begin with. Well, maybe some who in an attempt to feel frummer sent their children learning at a low level instead of college/profession, but this is a different story and not only chabad fault.
YYA> As soon as we have determined that the person putting on Tefillin is in fact a בר חיובא and has at least minimal intention to do a Mitzvah
Is the concern that the person does not care what he is doing or whether he is Jewish?
In terms of not caring, this might happen but how do we verify. Modern people are very fickle. I’ve accompanied a Chabadnik to blow a shofar to a pizza guy who continued making pizza while the shofar was sounding. I think he was paying attention, but it was really hard to say. This was not his first year, so there was no explaining happening. In the hospital, patients were aware and grateful, except I did not see those in worst condition, as he went there by himself.
As to non-Jewish: I understand that generally if someone presents himself in a shul as a Jew, we do not question his Jewishness. In theory, he might be a reform convert or even a curious Buddhist.. Can we stretch this to someone coming up to a tefilin stand that the person understands that this is a Jewish thing.
ZSK,
I get it, but your references are from the last century, I presume. You should be able to start your own solar-panel based shomer shabbat business and have electricity at least during the sunny days.YYA> discussion (which is in fact a discussion in contemporary Poskim) started with Tefillin because theoretically there is a ‘down side’ of ‘defiling’ the Kedusha of the Tefillin)
I get it. Still, focusing on such a psak focuses on the big picture of what Chabad shluchim achieve. I am not suggesting mitzva b’yadei avera, but just fair appreciation. Especially when criticism comes from people who did not bother to do anything themselves…
I came up of an interesting definition of Chabad in R Soloveitchik 1976 hesped for R Rivkin, a Chabad Rosh Yeshiva at Torah Vadaas:
Therefore, having spent my young years in Choslovich and being familiar with chassidus, and particularly Chabad, if you were to ask me what Chabad wanted to teach Jews, I will give you the answer. Chassidus, in general, and the mission of the Baal Shem Tov, and particularly Chabad, was how to recite a berachah! As the Gemara states in Perek HaMeiniach (Bava Kamma, 30a): “One who wants to become a chassid, should fulfill matters of berachos,” meaning, “Do you know who is a chassid? One who knows how to recite a berachah.”qwerty, you suggested that “kiruv” started outside of Chabad. I just added a couple of facts to that.
pekak, of course it is not a valid contract, as I said “forced on them”. I never heard an answer to this.
YYA> WRT Chabad Tefillin stands,
You don’t have to focus just on that one event. It is not as if Chabad just doing that. It is part of their trying to find and touch non-observant Jews.
Your opponent logically extends his “I do not care” towards these Jews to “caring about them is wrong”. Sad.somejew, thanks, this teshuva deals with some other issues – whether it is appropriate to live among people who not keep shabbos, it is also does not discuss the issue of tinokos. You mentioned Rambam. So, hilchos mamrim 3:3 says this applies to people like Tzadok & Beitos and then defines tinokos as an exception to that:
אֲבָל בְּנֵי אוֹתָן הַטּוֹעִים וּבְנֵי בְּנֵיהֶם,
There is nothing here about killing them slowly, but rather bring them to teshuva and Torah with words of peace.
פִיכָךְ רָאוּי לְהַחֲזִירָן בִּתְשׁוּבָה, וּלְמָשְׁכָם בְּדִבְרֵי שָׁלוֹם, עַד שֶׁיַּחְזְרוּ לְאֵיתַן הַתּוֹרָה.Note that Rambam here talks about generations of karaims, who would be more learned in Chumash than modern day non-O or non-observant Jews.
Am I misinterpreting this short paragraph incorrectly? Do your poskim disagree? And please post explicitly about this case, not about general opinion about mehalel shabbos.
Also, I notice that you are trying to bring sources close to your heart – Brisker, R Elchonon. I am very interested to learn what they say on this topic, but they are no substitute for normative halacha accepted by large swaths of Jews – Rambam, S’A, MB, R Moshe …
ZSK> even with automation, the “system” is managed by Jews who make decisions based on economic savings rather than Pikuach Nefesh
I am not sure I understand the argument: Jew defines the algorithm before Shabbos.
There is a related issue with automatically driving car: it makes decisions based on whatever algorithm is there. For example, in a crash, it may benefit the owner of the vehicle v. other drivers, or even select to crash into a person with better insurance coverage or less years left to live. Are you responsible for allowing this or shuold you rather rely on your own, imperfect, judgement.
ZSK, use of electricity is not the same as dealing with public order.
I hope someone looked into how modern electric grid works. I presume most of it can be automated, so it is a question of metziyut – whether it is. Also, possibly you can establish a “kosher” station that puts enough electricity into the grid? In US, you can “buy” electrons from different companies, even as they are delivered over the same grid. You can also get solar panels, except you might be empowering their chinese producers that can come back and enslave you later.
pekak> That *might* have been commendable if they actually wanted to support Torah.
well, this “Issachar/Zevulun” contract is indeed forced on them. But I believe tzodaka is one of those mitzvos that give the person zechus even when he is not doing it with full heart, just based on the results.
qwerty> NCSY began in 1954. while the first Chabad House was established in 1969.
As I quoted before, R Soloveitchik acknowledged work that Chabad was doing earlier than Chabad houses – and he did not see any fault in their work.
2nd-to-last rebbe would send chassidim to a town for several years and then they would come back to the community, while the last one innovated settling in the community.yankel> idea of the ‘veltishe’ kiruv orgs … did absolutely not ‘come from’ habad
I think it did. It is true that there are always yehidim and organizations that tried to either directly addressed non-observant public or those who would become non-observant without the intervention, such as Rambam, Mendelsohn [don’t want to start a war about him, but it would be unfair to skip[, R Hirsch, R Salanter, R Kook, R Soloveitchik. The latter: not just in his writing, but in his high-school push and re-org of YU to mass-produce rabbis who can lead out-of-town congregations, and he contrasts this approach to those who contend to lead the frummer in Brooklyn. He also acknowledged the heroic approach used by Chabad under the 2nd-to-last Rebbe.
ZSK> Rav Goren is not a Rabbinic authority to the Charedi public
indeed so. I heard first-hand testimony about R Goren giving a visiting class in a yeshiva and then a student got up and demolished every part of his presentation. R Goren looked very happy and said that he gave this class several times already and nobody said a word! He asked for the student’s address, saying that he’ll review the arguments and send a response. The rav who told this story considers R Goren big talmid chochom based on both his writings and this episode.
ZSK> more expansive codes – Rambam, Rif, Rosh, etc. – address the subject of Moshiach
right. I am just saying that in your list, there is a need for careful analysis – to what degree such a topic should be expected in the source based on much related zman Moschiach/political material is there. You have to be very erudite to make an argument from absence to make sure what is not there 🙂
and you can still be wrong: an unrelated but cute story. A T’Ch asked R Salanter what is the source of his mussar teachings. RYS: Gemorah. T’CH – no it is not in the gemora! [that is how we know he was a T’CH!]. RYS: It is in MY Gemorah.
yankel> the peshara was the inclusion of the words ‘tsur yisrael’ which the religious understood as referring to God.
right. But was it understood some other way by the non-religious leaders? They knew their Tanach … most were not tinokos shenishba. The argument is not that different from US first amendment: how can the state impose religion on those who do not agree. If there were a possibility to establish a smaller, but viable, religious state – maybe that should have been done, but there was no such possibility.
Also, I think the final draft was written by a small group that did not include Aguda rep, but Mizrachi R Maimon who insisted on mentioning Hashem, and Ben Gurion suggest the Tzur compromise. R Maimon put the Shem near his signature or something like that. But maybe they were texting others also. I am sure there are books written about this topic.
more qs:
how do people choose to become member of peleg or stay with the mainstream? Do they ask their local rov or do they, H’V, decide on their own?
how do members react to gedolim who strongly disagreed with peleg?yankel> Those AAQ’s comments reveal his ignorance of the basic facts of the israeli scene ….
the point of the discussion is to build a full logical argument by combining different facts and viewpoints. Combining an ad hominems with an ad silentium makes it into an absurdum: you don’t know the person and you don’t know why that person chose to exclude some information. Here is how you actually argue:
Moshe> gedolim who hold differently than R Lando … Peleg
Right, I heard the reference. This raises a lot of questions:
Does it mean that only Peleg are demonstrating?
Is there anyone who has standing over whole community?
We had here before Steipler’s letter to NK and I had a feeling that Steipler was trying to convince, including by flattering, rather than direct. Are there any communications between groups going on now?
Many charedi leaders, or at least followers, express their opinion about RL and non-religious sector, often implying that disobedience to their shitah is against the Torah, etc. Is there more respect to different shitot in this case?somejew> most tinokos shenishbu today are mumarim.
In my understanding, these are mutually exclusive categories. Could you please suggest sources for such statement and, even better – ask a shailo of your ruv, so that you get a reply from a source you respect lhathilah. I am interested in hearing this opinion.
in an attempt to give you some unbiased starting point, here is Gemini:
q: can a person be both at the same time or are these categories exclusive
a: In the framework of Jewish law (halakha), these two categories are mutually exclusive as legal statuses, but they are overlapping as descriptive behaviors.
To put it simply: a person cannot be both a tinok shenishba and a mumar for the same action because one category exists specifically to cancel out the other.
If they are a Mumar, they lose certain communal privileges (e.g., their testimony is invalid).
If they are a Tinok Shenishba, they are viewed as an oness (someone under duress/accidental) and retain their full legal standing.Discussion of mumarim donning tefilin at chabad houses is noreshkeit. Most people whom chabad addresses are tinokos shenishba.
I once encountered someone who claimed to be an apikoires – learned when he was young and based on some interactions we had, became nostalgic for some learning. I first sent him to a litvishe rov, who said – you can come to the class on the condition that you’ll stay quiet. This did not work. Then, I sent him to chabad shaliach who spent some time discussing their differing worldviews without any problem.
ZSK, a question on your argumentum ex silentio (argument from absence) – it is a strong one, but the question is – at least some of these sources talk about daily halakha and do not necessarily talk about zman moschiach or other potential future events that do not look as a factor in the daily life of the readers. Rambam, for example, focuses on a simple Yid, omitting all references, etc.
Good point on R Akiva – were he familiar with the 3 oaths, he would at least address it somewhere in a braisa – did he?
If I can generalize by driving I see in heilicke towns in NJ, I would not want charedi drivers unless their yeshiva teaches them middos of driving.
israelidoc> It will never happen b/c the idea of a chareidi following orders / instruction from anyone other than a Torah authority is an anathema.
yes and no. There is a video on front page with R Landau saying that bochurim should not be at the demonstration and that situation is not simple and leadership is “doing the best they can”. So, who are all these people demonstrating while ignoring/or being ignorant of the instructions?
My theory is that this is a history-driven sociological trap: leadership established separate communities (Rambam’s deserts in the words of Chazon Ish), had to use separatist ideology to protect them (and this worked well both in Israel and US), and now these ideologies took over the crowds beyond the temporary measures they were, and leadership is unable to change them, in part because the protection is based on “we are right, and they are always evil”, but also because they can’t go against the load crowds. Emes is the biggest loss of this complex process.
Front page has a video of R Landau saying that bochurim should not be at these demonstrations. So, those who were there either did not bother asking the gadol, or went against his instructions? If so, what are their expectation – what zechus is protecting them?
this latest link says that Finance ministry is sending money to charedi schools without receiving knesset authorization. Are you posting this in a hope that the schools will do the ehrliche thing and return the funds for knesset approval?
Hashmonaim were wrong taking over malchus, being Kohanim and not from Yehudah. Did any of tannaim mention this when dealing with any of those kings or queens? I think they were mostly dealing with the current events of the time.
The discussion of 3 oaths was relevant 100 years ago. It is not now – when we have a state. See what Hashem says to Yonah regarding the kikayon.
It may be of historical interest to see who was right or wrong, but this is also limited – there were much bigger mistakes made 100 years ago, underestimating danger from Commies and Nazis to Yidden in Europe comparing with relative safety of EY and goldene medinah.akuperma> An argument can be made that a Melekh Yisrael (which by definition is a usurper, since he isn’t from Beis David) who goes against Torah, can and should be overthrown
Not so fast. See discussion between Herod and Bava Ben Zuta in the beginning of Bava Basra – rabonim were very reluctant to talk against the government even when it was extremely bad.
akuperma> By drafting, and arming, Hareidim who see the zionist state as lacking legitimacy, you are giving weapons to those who will turn on the medinah.
Do peleg really represent ajority of charedi public? Probably, a majority of them will quickly learn how to live with the Army without comproming their principles – as long as the leadership let them do it.
> how many balei tshiva have been led astray with faux-Chabad’s faux teachings
how many became baalei teshuva due to you and your community efforts?
ZSK, thanks a lot for looking it up! I am glad the story is confirmed. Would anyone know what charedi poskim say about such matters – either early on or now.
guteyid> Set up a independent self-defense course and you’ll have many (C)hareidim join.
a gut point! Not sure why you expect someone else to set it up – the charedi community should do it on their own. Can start by policing people who attack buses and army events. Then, extend to protecting their communities.
Just> Everyone would be obligated to become a doctor in order to save lives. Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l famously rules that no such obligation exists.
Self-protection from attackers is different from being a doctor, and obligation would be different. And even when one is not obligated, we have a lot of people who are trying to be super-frum in mitzvos. Maseches Taanis describes a doctor who was visited by yeshiva shel maaleh more often than Abaye and Rava (despite his bloodletting methods were not the most effective ones – surely a fact known b’shmayim!). I would presume many would like to follow in his steps.
some> as Rav Elchonon Vasserman said in the name of the Chofetz Chaim: the zionists are amulek.
this seems to a new claim to me. Does REW indeed say “in the name of Chofetz Chaim”? Before I saw only references to REW himself.
And given how much Chofetz Chaim published, it would be good to confirm this in his own writings. I did not see such so far.
Katan> LOL. As per halacha?
I have siddurim that have prayers for Emperor Franz Josef and for Czar Niklai Alexandrovich (different siddurim, not at the same time :). Ponevezh rav used kal vahomer for having Israeli flag from having Lithuanian Republic flag. So, my kal vahomer is much stronger. So, you should also have prayers asking Hashem to have President and Prime Minister favor the Jewish people.
CTL, I am not arguing against your personal experiences. I am just saying that your personal experiences should not colour your opinion about world events. And at least you have some personal reasons, but what about all others?!
It is reported but R- support for action against Maduro jumped from 50% to 75% in several days due to the success. It is understandable that some people were not sure this will work (I was in this group), but liked it when it happened. At the same time, number of D- supprt jumped by a factor of 2!! from 6% to 12% …. how is it possible that 90% of D-s are against something so basic as an arrest of a dictator? Not all D-s are commie supporters – you are not.
I don’t know if you knew well your Senator Joe Lieberman. He would probably have approved – but that only 10% of D-s are capable of supporting a good thing just because the other party did it – it is very sad.