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Daas > taking the lomdei Torah out of the beis medrash would be a tragedy
so, you are also for drafting those charedim that are not in beis midrash? Is this your personal opinion, Daas Yachid?
Daas, I am not saying that everyone is doing it for the wrong reasons. A rough estimate, one should have iq at least 120 to be learning, which is 10% of population, this is not accounting for middos.
And I am not denying that many have good intentions and following the advice they are given. Still, at some point, people need to be responsible themselves. … A friend told me that he was trying to encourage his married son to get a better job to support his own family, and the son blamed his parents back for sending him to yeshiva that encouraged him to stay in learning too long.
Dr Pepper, I think this sounds suspicious. Theoretically, you are allowed to benefit the person without his knowledge, but in this case you are also bothering all the references.
Daas > OpenDNS and the like are easily bypassed.
Together with a filter on the router? Maybe we should not go into too much details, children might be reading đ
I was trying to move soft on my relatively well behaved teens. This included
– monitoring their activities for some time to map out what is being used, and how it changes after some are blocked
– selective filtering out the worst, while creating minor problems in others. Sometimes even somewhat denying that my interference is the source of problems.
– in case of misbehavior or rebellion against the measures – whitelisting, leaving only math sites accessible đ
– kids learned some of cool cyber skills that might help him land a job with NSA> Keeping an unfiltered computer in a public area is a disaster waiting to happen. There isnât always someone else home.
Why such extreme – why totally unfiltered. This is in addition to other measures. But if you have an account that it totally opened to everyone, it would be pretty hard for someone to mis-sue it. And how many families have 1 teen sitting at home for long time periods? where are parents? siblings?
And for total assurance – You can also have a parent control system that takes snapshots of the screen every so many minutes so that you can exclude any untoward things happening when nobody is looking. One I saw was I think shareware for $30 or something like that.
ard > you realize that when you say âthe authors of these lettersâ
And I am trying to understand the motivation besides these difficult lashonos – and giving you an opportunity to put your explanation, or if you have access, direct or phone or email to them or people around them – you can just ask these questions directly and let us know.
Menachem > So you agree with me that there is such a thing as accepting a âdaas torahâ and obeying them unquestionably even when you donât understand.
acculturation. daas torah did not exist in Litvishe pre-WW2 community – but chassidishe rebbes already existed. Now, with so many people streaming to learn from litvishe yeshivas, the inmates gradually took over the asylum.
German elections, while they were fair, give us a good lesson – 1/3 of the country was voting for nazis because they were afraid of commies
and 1/3 – for commies because they were afraid of nazis. And the more they were voting this way, the more they were scared, etc
and german democracy was not built with enough strength to survive through such two-sided attack.We still have this effect – with a crazy on one side saying something inflammatory, the other side gleefully sends those quotes around to fundraise.
So, try not to vote for someone just because they are opposite of something, find someone who cares for population in general.
Do you always need to know rebbe’s sources? Is seeing the rebbe actually doing something not sufficient in some cases? Maybe not enough to pass to others though.
Some jew, you are right in theory, that is why I am asking based on reported cases. Apparently r Eliashev relied on what his trusted assistants told him without double checking that required picking up the phone. I understand why this might happen, but I would have to presume that it is unlikely that this happened only once. In the other case, RJBS presumably didn’t disclose to the students his confidential sources in the Israeli government, just related the conclusion that it is best for soviet jews to continue being quiet. Interestingly, you are right that the students who didn’t follow this psak, as well as R Moshe, L Rebbe and r Teitz presumably reevaluated the explanations (other rabonim had a different explanation: personal risk to students from soviet agents)
ard > one can always wave off daas torah by saying the gadol was lied to, have an open mind
I’ve heard gedolim admitting that, such as
– RJBS first was against open demonstrations for Soviet Jews (like other gedolims) but then changed it based on realization that his Israeli contacts provided him biased info (suggesting what was better politically for Israel at the time, not what was better for Soviet Jews themselves)
– R Eliashiv supposedly being told that R N Kamenetsky continues selling the book despite him pausing the sales, and later, supposedly, explaining “how would I know I was lied, I am not a navi”.These admissions raise the question how “daas Torah” operates – is it guaranteed Torah-based inference applied to externally provided facts? Does DT include ability to evaluate sources of information? Every beis din is supposed to be able to interrogate witnesses. What does it mean that an elderly DT is in full control of his Torah-attuned inference but is not able to pick up the phone and call relevant people? Given cases like that, how do you evaluate DS advise for elections? Do you respectfully ask him what his sources are?
Dr Pepper > In the name of âshidduchimâ theyâre all of the sudden allowed to call anyone
in fairness:
1) our community is dispersed and looking further around allows (in theory) for better matches, so if you have no personal connection, you have to rely on information from others.
2) sharing such info is, of course, allowed & encouraged, within some limits. There is probably more undersharing (“yes, he/she is a wonderful person”) and mis-communications: how does a rav on the phone knows what is a “good learner” for you?
3) people should be as sharing when selecting schools, business partners, and charities.You can’t legally vote for Biden any more (unless he is running for the dogcatcher), so time to retire this thread.
It would have been better for Napoleon if Berezina river parted for him when he was escaping Russia.
ZSK > RJBS is known for TuM, not RZ,
you may be right. RJBS was often looking from US POV, that is reacting to events in Israel from the POV of what choices were in front of American Jews or American Mizrahi. Even then, he sometimes prefaces his speeches with – I am not an expert on specific political issues, I am simply bringing my knowledge of Torah to contribute to the discussion. For example, he suggests to American Mizrahi to spend more energy/money on organizing American yeshivos rather than simply trying to fundraise for Israel (“I just built mine, I am not asking you to contribute but I am surprised you did not”). This stand-off view is actually makes it interesting comparing with those who were/are involved in daily issues in Israel.
As an illustration, I understand what you are saying about effect of Gush Katif, but from the outsider’s POV, it is a tactical issue, even as much as it was painful for some, and there is no way to make it as a defining issue in politics, even with the after-knowledge of the events that transpired later on.
ZSK to katan> when challenged, you ignore the challenge
I don’t think he is doing it to spite us. He is simply used to talk to people with same views and his “knowledge” is from his own sources, so he is not able to respond to texts he never saw… we all are confronted here with unfamiliar positions, but some react with curiosity and some do not.
non-political b’shem katan>
1) It is forbidden to make a state before Moshiach comes
2) You are joining in an enterprise with people who are using the said enterprise to replace authentic Yidishkeit with NationalismMy question is how should we behave now based on current situation, and I think we are all partially mislead by history of events. This is not new: Berel Wein, for example, blames animosity of Zionists towards religious communities on Russian czar’s policy that required the kahal to collect required number of recruits to the Russian army, creating negative forces in Jewish community between those in power and those who might get recruited, often poor/orphans …
So, try starting from a clean slate. How come similar people live their lives in US and other non-observant countries without being obsessed with sins of the government, but then do opposite where the country happened to be in EY and people in power happened to be Jewish. It is not that they want a choice to move to a non-Jewish state in EY – they could move to PA or Syria any time, just what is their problem; why can’t they find a way to live their life the way they want, accommodating demands of the government as Jews did over the centuries. If they demand more from the Medinah than from other medinos, then they are also zionists.
I tried posting what I learned from tag site, but it either got lost or filtered out. I’ll post just brief summary, if it is controversial, hopefully just the offending lines will be taken out:
tag has almost free option (one tim $25)
tag discloses that installation is free, but companies charge for filters
the disclosure is in small print, which is not a good midah but this is nitpicking
tag does not suggest free tools like openvpn that might be a good help for many people
tag does not seem to have serious discussion on how to deal with the problem – put computer in right places; talk to children; learn good things to do on computer, etc. This is I think is the major problem – insisting that filters are a technical solution to communication/education problem – this is a good emergency method to stop inappropriate behavior but it should not lure you into thinking that the problem is now addressed.somejew,
I am going back to your OM (opus magnus). You seem to be proving that we need to go over and thoroughly learn Vayoel Moshe because of his godlus. I don’t think it is a bad idea, but I don’t think you have to force people to do that.As many here posted, there are other respectable opinions out there – from those who are now cooperating with Medinah while barely tolerating to those who appreciate Israel’s role in giving homes to those who lost their homes to those who would hang the flag just one day a year to those who have hopes that Medinah will lead to something good in the future to those who think there is redeeming value in the Medinah despite shortcoming to those who were willing to work with Medina lehathila hoping to make it better to those, at the extreme, who think that Medinah can do nothing wrong. You may claim that some of the listed are not of sufficient stature, especially at the extreme, but there were many names posted here that are not disprovable by, for example, their association with other Talmidei Chachamim that you respect.
Thus, if I am not a Satmar, I do not have to rely on Vayoel Moshe if I am already following other mesoras. Same way, I don’t need to know all kavonos of all chassidishe rebbes before davening shacharis. I can rely on Gaon who did not learn those kavonos also. Now, if I were to insist that Vayoel Moshe is incorrect and a wrong shitah and makes a mistake – then I will be obligated to go research each of his heilike arguments one by one. But I am just not interested right now, no offense, but I have other lakunas in my Torah that I need to cover first. I might have done it were I to live in the time he published it. But right now, Medinah exists, it is full of religious Jew, b’h, so there are lots of other issues to deal with, such as whom to vote for in WZO elections. (can you write in Vayoel Moshe?).
Now, you insist that Vayoel Moshe is correct and every other gadol is not. To say that, you need to go and learn original sources of those you think are wrong and review their arguments. Thankfully, people here provided you a lot of references. Let us know which one you are starting with and let’s have a substantive discussion.
ZSK > significant plurality here is not going to agree with you
but this is a safe way for that group to get exposed to different opinions without risking physical exposure to army officers.
simcha > similar spiritual challenges occur when fathers and husbands realize they need to start providing for their families
part of the problem that charedi defense mechanism is based on isolation. I see same in US. My teens sometimes host friends from isolated towns – and some of them start doing questionable things the moment they are OOT. This is like someone who grew up in sterile environment and having no immunity against common diseases. So, the fears of exposure are partially reasonable and it is very reasonable to provide special units for such soldiers. I was reading about some charedim working on F-16 maintenance where get exposure to complex cognitive tasks and no serious challenge to the lifestyle. Hopefully, both sides can work jointly on figuring out a solution. Maybe those who learned how to search internet thru filters can join cyberunits đ
was it on the day of prayer that a son & a grandson of Meir Porush weer assaulted? I did not see it on front page here, as if safety & dignity of haredi politicians are not important.
Ard, there’s nothing in the Torah about protecting our spiritual values at the expense of other people and Hashem’s values. If you are carrying such a sentiment, you then presume that lives and spiritual situation of other Jews is of no value to you. I think the authors of these letters realize the difficulty. That is why they are smoothing over it by constantly putting together prayers for hostages and for those who don’t want to serve, trying to somehow latch to the prayers of the whole am yisroel.
But this only highlights the contradiction; Hashem please save the hostages, but not thru us. Esther tried that but then she listened to Mordechai.Zsk, I am not well versed in internals of tzahal. Would it be a case of rz having, on average, less interest in full time Army career, or is it that people tend promote people with similar values?
HaKatan, on the two actual claims at the end of your post:
Def rz and mo are not holding by 1. RJBS writes in many places about fallacies of non religious zionists on that.On 2, there are different opinions… RJBS hopeful in some cases and warning that, for example, megila says that jews should not feel safe anywhere, including in state of Israel. At the basic level, if you put aside history of animosity between different groups, what would be your problem with the state? It just happened that currently a group of jews, some religious, some not live in EY and they vote together how to fight enemies and how to collect taxes. We live among non jews like that in other countries. We lived in EY under bad Jewish leaders in history. We dealt with problems as they were presented. I don’t recall neviim recommending boycott of the state.
Litvishe rabbis of 100 years ago would be horrified if someone would charge them with solving social problems. In a crisis, many stepped up, like r Kotler saying that cpr sometimes requires breaking ribs. Now, someone had to deal with problems in the society created by several generations that lost balance in their life. I think we should not throw more societal problems on roshei yeshivos whose competency is in learning and making them address all the problems that were created in last 70 years. Get a group of professionals and businesses leaders and let them develop solutions, with proper halachik advice of course.
I am trying to understand shidduch strategy of guys who are not going into rabbanut, and will eventually need to look for a job – when they are looking for a girl or a shver who will support their learning for several more years. So, they are severely limiting their choices to a small number of rich girls, compromising on other issues, from middos to beauty, so that they can spend several more years not being responsible for the family, then go into subpar jobs due to their lack of skills and then having to support the wife used to rich life for the rest of his years. An alternative is so simple in our days: learn just 8 hours a day, work 6 to 8 hours a day, marry a wife of modest means and middos tovos who will raise great children and continue learning for decades to come.
From this, I am concluding, and unfortunately also observing, that guys who embark on this shortsighted path have to be seen with suspicion: either they have a feeling that they’ll fall apart outside of yeshiva, or they are a little lazy and use learning as an excuse, or they overestimate their own potential, or they and their parents have wrong ideas what Torah asks from jews …
Anon, are you sure. Wzo has large reform and anti religion factions, so the anti zionist vote in wzo will help to counter those votes.
Observer,
There is clear difference between halakha that is reasonably static over time and a psak that depends on a combination of issues at the time. Thus, r Shach deciding to participate more in Israeli politics is not a rejection of rabbis of previous generation.Rocky, so if you have enough backup to vote, you should now look into who to vote for.
Zsk > Modern Orthodox is about survival in the modern era as an Orthodox Jew
There is definitely an element of that, but the same is of the isolationist also, but both approaches have their own claim to actual Torah truth, not just Tactical survival. RJBS writes that I we hold to have access to Hashem’s truth then we should be able to relate to modern issues rather than hide in the cave.
Nonpolitical, it seems though that mo stereotypes are mostly based on charedi stated positions, while charedi stereotypes are based on projections. That is, if you tell that charedim do not want to work, you might get a response why it is a right thing to do. If you tell a mo that they are conservative, they’ll say it is not true.
Don’t drink and post
Chaim re deficit, you seem to be stating numbers in a weird way. First, deficit is spending- revenue. Given that revenue for the government is simply money taken from us, reduction in that is, by some opinions, good, but at least neutral. Revenue went from 18% of gdp to 16% during Trump years and then up to 20-21 for 2 years after that. Spending stayed flat at 20% until went up in 2020, so there was no extra spending pre covid. Defense spending, that is essential, was decreasing before and increasing during T years.
As to annual deficit itself, it indeed increased from .5t lowest during o years to 1t that was also seen in earlier o years. So, sum of t fiscal policies are: tax reduction, slight increase in defense, covid. I am sure you can argue with some of it, but not at all a disaster
Yeshivaman, thanks for the information.
But are you sure you are not a zionist in any form? If you are voting, you presumably care about wzo votes about issues in Israel? Don’t feel bad about this, I know one charedi rav who was asked by some non observant people if he is a zionist. He didn’t have a heart to say no, he said yes, in a sense of mehazir shehinaso ltziyon.Chaim, is tag giving instructions on how to deal with technology or only offering filters? I recall attending a presentation from a message I think from Baltimore that went through multiple things, including positioning computers in public places, negotiating rules with teens: buy a new iPhone in exchange for following new rules. Relying only on filters may not work: you are addressing symptoms not the problem and have a misleading feeling that you “addressed ” the problem.
HaKatan, usual assertion without the argument. What’s the point of taking your time to type this
BTW, if you go to moetzes website, it has RJBS photo in the list of former moetzes members right near r Silver
yeshivaman, thanks! did the Dayan tell you how to vote (like R Shmuel does) or left it for you to decide? (or is it self-understood within the community that you need to vote for as certain party only)
Simcha, I asked on the newspage about an irony here: the fast is commemorating Jews fasting under direction of Esther before going to battle against the enemies. Where does tefila against the draft go in the service then? Right before thanking Hashem for letting our army win against Haman?
I got two answers (I presume the rest agreed): (1) current army has girls (2) Purim army was led by Mordechai (not really, the order was from Esther and Jews presumably organized locally, Mordechai was not the general).
So, based on these answers, I am suggesting that every bochur should make a written stipulation with the army that he should be drafted and one of the chiloni maidens should go to a sem instead. Then, at the end of the service, he gets the first dibs for shidduch. Let’s see if the army agrees.
And after enough bochrim join the army, some will become generals, the way other religious generals got there.
yankel > The navi [!] Shmuel was mistaken about Yishayâs sons
indeed, Shmuel was mistaken about his own sons … this episode actually bothers me. Anyone knows of a good explanation. Shmuel’s first nevuah is about telling Eli that Eli’s two sons are not proper and more bad news to tell Eli … That is how Shmuel becomes a leader – instead of them. Then, he raises two sons himself – and both are also not proper. Then, when frustrated Jews come and request a king (true, not wording their request properly) – Shmuel is all offended. But how is that Shmuel is not addressing his own failure – that is repeating Eli’s failure, so he was warned …
This time I clarified something from this discussion.
Think of a doctor that does not recommend you to exercise and have a healthy lifestyle and giving you preventive medicine but reassures you – don’t worry at this rate, you will need heart and lung transplant in 10 years, I’ll be there for you! same with the car mechanic who does not do oil changes.There are simple first steps that you should take by yourself: put your computer in a public room; share that computer account with others; learn useful things to do on that computer; do them together with your parents and siblings; share your room with siblings; establish a sleep routine, etc. This advice probably has some details that are worthy discussing. If you ignore basics and only talk about filters that will “protect” the kid who is allowed to sit in a dark room at night with his phone – either this person is selling something (so it can not be “free”) or he is not very smart and you need to find other role models.
As an example, one of my kids was reading silly rhymes online and even generated by AI. Nothing inappropriate. I suggested googling a poem by Robert Frost. He did. “It does not rhyme” he said. I suggested – read slower .. now, he is taken by the road less taken …
somejew > RJBS was the leader of the Tinukei Shenishba kehilla. Not familiar enough with Yiddishkeit to be fully frum, but sincere enough (presumably by chazukeh) to keep the Torah if their leaders would ever dare tell them the Truth.
I don’t think you picture well the American scene in 1930-50s. Majority of American Jews were assimilated or on the verge of it. NY and I think other states allowed for one or several hours of religious study at public schools and various tzaddikim were trying to recruit several Jewish students at their locations to teach those students. RJBS writes with accolate about such chabad shluchim in his area (under the previous L rebbe).
I still do not understand the “fully frum” idea. I’ve davened at YI at various parts of the country and did not see any halachik problems. Maybe you are confused by the fact that less-observant people come to [some] “modern” shuls. Is this bad? The shuls themselves are generally committed to halakha. There are indeed cases where amei chaaretz take over shuls. RJBS answers several queries from his former students whether they are allowed to take jobs at places with mixed seating and he replies that they can not.
lakewhut > He also wasnât the only decision maker in YU.
Right, I think RJBS had direct influence on his students, but not always at the institution. He was not a founder. His initial discussions (while he father was with YU) were an agreement to allow associating his Boston yeshiva in 1930s-early 40s with YU and sharing fundraising funds with YU. This agreement was with YU as an institution, not like a son of a chassidishe rebbe ready to inherit.
> Not every town had a touro and yeshiva program.
Touro started in 1970s and while it has solid programs for people coming from yeshivos with limited general studies enabling a pathway to respectable jobs , YU is way higher academically. They both have a niche, not fully covered by the other.
somejew, I looked up this article, thanks, it seems to be written by a total outsider, zeroing on some inconsistencies in the reports.
Let’s look at a bigger picture: Ohr Sameach was a rav in a large city, Dvinsk that was full of political activities. I’ve read a couple of articles, it seems that Ohr Sameach was generally pro- yishuv eretz yisroel but wary of anti-religious groups involved, still having some sympathy. I’m putting below some quotes. Given where and how he lived, I don’t think his activities and letters would go unnoticed by contemporaries, he was not always outgoing with his positions, but he was not hidden in a desert. In particular, the letter ^ was published in 1922, there are his responses from right after Balfour in 1917-18. He was niftar in 1926, surely an actual forgery would be noticed during his lifetime. The quotes below are from a long article A Light Unto Our Nation: R. Meir Simhah of Dvinskâs Approach to Nationhood and Zionism in Meshekh Hokhmah By: JONAH STEINMETZ – you would be better off reading the original than my random quotes to understand complexity of Ohr Sameach views.
From the day our holy Torah was given, prophecy has never ceased to command us to settle the land [of Israel]. There is no section in the Torah which bears no mention of the Land of Israel… From the day that Zion and Jerusalem were singled out, David in his praises [i.e., Psalms], Isaiah in his visions, Jeremiah in his rebukes, and Ezekiel in his parables never ceased to stress the commandment of settling the land… So too in the Grace after Meals, we pray for the land and Jerusalem… Indeed, in this century, rays of light have shone through the efforts of activists… but many rabbis have opposed it… However, providence has intervened, and at a conference… it was decreed that the Land of Israel will be [given] to the nation of Israel… [And so,] the command to settle the Land of Israel which is as weighty as all the Torah commandments [combined] has returned to its place. It is [therefore] incumbent upon each person to support, to the extent that he can, the fulfillment of this command. The words of the one who awaits seeing the salvation of Israel, Meir Simhah Kohen Ha-Tor, Vol. 3 (1922)
Eulogy from R. Hayyim Zev Harash
Everyone claimed him as their own. Agudath Israel says he was theirs, the Hasidim say he was theirs, and the âZionistsâ say he was theirs. And this is the truth, because he would find positive aspects in every group. And so, he once said to me in conversation… that in every group and in every organization, there are found good aspects and evil aspects⊠[A] person who stands on the side, a neutral person, is able to truly know and understand the good aspects found even in the lowliest of the groups; and to find the evil aspect which exists even in the finest of the groupsYou asked me… to express my opinion regarding the new movement which came to be in our times… by the name of âHovevei Zionâ are they called..
[F]or one who looks at the history of the Jewish people in exile with open eyes sees that at some times crazy, imaginative people arise from among our nation… and place their trust [in the idea] that the redemption is close in coming. And being that their words are [destructive] and all their acts are [ensnaring], many from the nation of God left the religion and the nation and denied the hope of the future⊠Behold! How terrifying is the sight of the enthusiastic [people] who go out saying: âThis is the way which leads to the ultimate redemption From R. Meir Simhahâs letter to Slucki.
I see also ref to
Meshekh Hokhmah, Bereishit 12:5; Devarim 11:31.
Meshekh Hokhmah, Bereishit 50:24. where he supports oaths
after Balfour, he supported yishuv, but does not join Zionist movement Iggerot R. Hayyim Ozer, vol. 1, pp. 311-12 (no. 289).
see also Sheâeilot u-Teshuvot Avnei Nezer, Yoreh Deah 454:56UJM & RJBS > true, there is a bit of Torah in the Diaspora; however the number of Torah students is proportionately very low, and it is impossible to forecast what will happen in future generations. . . whereas in that very non-observant Israel the future of Torah and traditional Judaism is far more secure.â
this is a very accurate description at the time and reflects the feelings of many. I heard from R Nosson Sherman that his father was encouraging elderly students to continue coming to class in the snow “because who knows if there will be a class after you”. This is also in the context of destruction of European Torah from which RJBS came from and pondering how we restore the glory of Torah.
And he was right that Israel is a great environment, and note that he says “impossible to forecast” about US. He is not totally pessimistic – and he is obviously doing something to change the course. In another speech, he says that Mizrachi is wrong when they only try to collect for EY and recruit people
to go to Israel: we need yeshivos in America more as people are disappearing here. Then he says – we already collected money for our school in Boston, I am not fundraising here, I am just surprised that Mizrachi did not run to help us.> also acceptance of not full adherence to the Taryag Mitzvos
I am not sure what this means. Maybe you can clarify. That not fully observant people attend MO shuls? Most MO Shuls have normative halakha, a Rav and a core group of fully observant people. YI movement has a charter. I talked to marginally observant people, incl Israelis, who said that they were welcome to a local YI but were not given membership. And they respected that.
Jewish communities always had all kind of individuals. Now, you’ll say Chabad is not observant because they invite people from the street. With millions of Jews who already disappeared or are on the verge, it is more appropriate to look down at a shul that makes no effort to invite someone non-observant.
UJM > But he thought (and states) that âseparatist Orthodoxyâ would disappear and only MO will survive. Like you pointed out above, âtourist attractionsâ he says Chareidim would end up. Clearly he was 100% mistaken. And it was that which he said justified âModern Orthodoxyâ â survival, nothing else.
many good thoughts to discuss here, thanks. I suggest to read on RJBS more than just the most quoted (and misquoted) major addresses to understand his line of thought. He clearly argues that his derech is emes, not just accomodation. The way I understand him: Hashem gives every generation the world in it’s current state and it is our challenge to address it. We learn gemorah on relationship between Jewish leaders and Rome – and supposed to apply this knowledge to modern politics. Same way as Tannaim were learning Chumash on Yaakov Esav when going to Rome. So RJBS is trying to address these issues – see his several speeches to Mizrachi gatherings. In these speeches, he is not claiming to be an expert in politics, just bringing his Torah knowledge to their discussions. As an example of his limitations – students demonstrating for Soviet Jews in the 70s asked him whether it is a good idea, and he said “no” (as did R Feinstein and R Teitz, and, I think not sure, L Rebbe – their answers was primarily out of fear that Soviets will retaliate against these students). They did it anyway. One of them asked RJBS later if he still objects, and he said – not objecting anymore. I first asked my contacts in Israeli government what is best policy “for Soviet Jews”. Israeli advised him to be quiet. He later realized that the answer was based on Israeli interests who hoped to negotiate with Russkis. His psak was to do whatever is best for shevuim themselves, disregarding side effects on others.
And he paints “separatist O” as people who do not want to engage with the world. My own understanding is that many “separatists” positions are not based on emes but are haraa shaa to save Jews from surrounding dangers. And many of these were successful in preserving and growing large communities. But the expense of creating sick hashkafos is evident right here and we now need to heal the ribs of all those saved by R Kotler’s CPR.
lakewhut > I think itâs not a far stretch to say if not for RJBS, most of what we call Modern Orthodox would not be religious at all today
Or become chabadnikim :).
> YU is designed to be an alternative to Jews who would go to a secular college.
not only that, but to train rabbis who can address communities of Jews who went to college.This development also shows the deficiency of previous generations of religious leaders who were not able to address Jewish masses who got access to general culture and education. They were not doomed for assimilation if there will be someone who could talk their language. This is a generalization, of course. There were, of course, R Hirsh, R Salanter, etc. It is very instructive to read letters from Chofetz Chaim in 1920-30 and from R Soloveitchik starting mid 1930s. Ch.Ch is vividly describing increasing devastation of Jewish observance and education in Poland but his proposed solutions are simply cries of desperation – please have at least one kosher school in your town, please do not send your daughters to (polish) gymnasiums (and send where?), please women who know how to read, read enclosed halochos niddah to your friends who can’t read (how about teaching them to read?). At the same time, RJBS develops ideas how to quickly train rabbis to address this ignorant population.
RJBS was probably followed his father who, I think, was already involved in modernization of Jewish schools in Poland.
Note that RJBS was not responsible for everything that was done at YU. He did not even start there – he first negotiated a partnership with YU when his father was the Rav there and RJBS had a yeshiva in Boston.
One example is his article about opening of YU Medical school. He said that many people asked him – why is YU going into this business when it was first formed on donations for a rabbinical college. He then says that he can justify it b’dieved – because he was not consulted about this l’hathila! His justification is that Jewish community suffer from non-religious doctors (it was that way in Lita) who are not sensitive to religious patients (it is easier for me to talk about these issues with non-Jewish doctors than with non-religious Jewish doctors). So, if some doctors will go to YU – they will not necessarily become observant, but at least they will have sensitivity to halakha and hopefully will be better for religious Jews.
rocky> Using language like â risking your olam haBa”
This is a variation of Pascal’s wager: it is better to be religious than not because you may lose eternal reward in one case, and almost nothing in the other.
Of course, in this case you are probably not risking your olam haba if you make your decision after carefully studying arguments of both sides and end up following one of the decisions. But you are probably at risk, if you make your decision based on biased and hateful ideas.