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Bottom line is that we need to have good Jewish education affordable to normal jews who work. Without that, we will continue having social distortions. parents consider staying in chinuch to afford education for their kids, schools using the tuition powers to dictate all rules, kids seeing their parents in constant financial distress despite working hard..
Neville, CE (first VE – vulgar era) is several hundreds years old. Whether to use it will depend on the culture and pressure to assimilate that vary over time/place.
Something I just saw in R Soloveitchik drasha in June 1945 (right after WW2 and in the middle of political ups and downs in Palestine):
Cohen godol had tzitz (symbolizing Torah learning, answering Torah questions) and hoshen (answering practical questions – to go to war or not, etc). Note that the same person wears BOTH, that is Cohen godol is responsible both for learning and for practical action. Then, he laments that in our days, these two are separated – our tzitz (T’Ch) are focused only on analyzing shulchan oruch (he quotes specifical seforim), and our “cohanim” who are running politics are doing it as if they are the smartest in the world without benefit of Torah views. And he calls (Mizrachi) to be that force that unites both. So, he clearly sees both values and problems in both charedim and zionists and calls to unify for the common goal.
Good thoughts, but most of us do not know how the committees work. Presumably, those who are closer to the school, either as family, by hashkafa, by teaching there, etc will get a better deal. I am all for making the system more transparent, but practically speaking we are using the approach that we saw several of older “working” friends were using:
do not submit any financial forms, simply come to school and suggest that you’ll pay X $$$ or X%. The number should be fair, depending on your circumstances, number of children in school. your dependency on the school and how much markup the price is over the true cost. Do this number yourself, do not leave it to them. Generally, it would be 50%-70% of published price. This presumably covers your own children, excluding paying for the “non-working” families. If, say, general studies are so bad that you will have to teach them separately, then maybe 40%.
How do I know this is a good number? I once started conversation with a new financier, saying “I would like 30%” (meaning I am asking for 30% off). He thought that I am asking to pay 30% and almost had a heart attack. I quickly finished the sentence and we immediately shook hands.
If you run a business, you can define your own financial year. Maybe make it by Julian calendar – January 13. I wonder whether IRS will accept Tishri 1 or Nissan 1.
Dec 11 – a person with chinese name arrested in CA for allegedly flying a drone over and taking photographs of Vandenberg Space Force Base
Dec 12 Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH closed airspace
Dec 15 – 2 people arrested in MA for flying near airportthere are also reports like this:
June 18, 2024, – arrest in upstate NY for shooting down neighbor’s droneOne thing that can be tried in USA – let states do different things. Then, we can compare results of different policies – and even move there.
Rocky, thanks for the information.
As to disclosing info, one of my local chabad-affiliated very small schools posts 990-like info in their bulletins, together with ratio of funds coming and going attributed to different types of activities. So, it seems that even a small organization is capable of providing some info to the public.
As to TU focus on chareidi v. other schools, I found this in 1945 speech by R Soloveitchik in the process of developing ideas of early day schools, paraphrasing:
Some of those deep in NY boroughs assume that there are two types of youngsters: ones in yeshivah, and the rest immersed in materialism. As I live in “real world” town, I can attest that there is another group – youngsters who are deeply interested in spirituality, religion, philosophy – but not having right information and environment. We should not cut them off, and the most successful way to address them is through schools.This discussion is one-sided: obviously, would-be posters who object to the years will not post posts that will have that date posted above their post. Time for a heimishe branch of blogging software with dates from Alexander. AAQ. Year 0 of Trump II.
I think “common”, originally vulgar in latin, before vulgar got current negative connotation does not mean anything good, such that “uncommon” is weird.
Maybe you got corrupted by our democracy that “common” = “popular” = wins the votes …It simply means – used by most people (a fact) and it is a common convention to count years so that we do not get into a mess using different years.
Maybe, it is even better to say VE than CE, the way Kepler said it, if we can get away with calling them Vulgar.
Excellent meta-discussion. I neglected to put a caveat that I am not an accountant and just refer others, hopefully more knowledgeable, to this data.
I don’t think the charity navigator grades are always relevant. For example, they take points of for not having 990 info on the website, something that might be forgivable for a small hemeishe organization whose target population does not live off twitter. Also, their grades may be based on some automatic harvesting of info that might not always correspond to reality. For example, it grades lack of external audit. I won’t rely that it is true or true for all years … again, someone who knows something about accounting should say something.
to the original topic, I noticed that front page direct quotes from many RYs are consistent in seeking protection to BNEI YESHIVA. There are also some that say that “nobody should go” … but the theme of “bnei yeshiva” seems to be more consistent. I am thinking that these RYs are implicitly admitting that those who are not learning could go to IDF, they just not saying it directly to the face of the public. But when politicians come to the RYs, they respond – please protect bnei yeshivos. So, possible those who are trying to extend this protection to those who are simply members of the same community as bnei yeshiva, who live on the same street, and wear same type of hats – should not be relying that RYs will be fighting to protect them.
Re: gedolim. We used to have a smicha from Moshe Rabeinu, and now we have some sort of semicha. So, I would define a set of talmidei chachomim those who got either formal semicha or some srt of respect from other T’Ch. And then within that set, identify rankings – who asks whose questions as gemora often does.
for example, R Soloveitchik learned with his father and grandfather and also with R Ozer (at least during visits home when he was @ University of Berlin). He was also part of early Moetzes until he decided to leave it.
2scents > Given the large databases and the variations in geographic and socioeconomic factors, how can we accurately measure outcomes in schools?
this is an excellent question. I saw some research creating metrics on improvement – that is taking the 5th grade where students were at 40% percentile in math tests for their year and making them 6th graders that are in 60% percentile for their year – means this school/teacher improved by 20%. This is not perfect (much easier to improve from 40 to 60% than from 80% to 100% for example, and who knows what happens at 0%, maybe murder), but at least it is a starting point to compare disparate situations, better than simply claiming our school is the best (because we selected best students).
I brought several times a gemora in Bava Basra about creating a school system during BM2 era. It clearly went through several stages, taking many years of trial-and-error. First attempt (preferred) is provate – fathers need to teach; then fathers need to take teens to Yerushalaim, where public will teach them, ending with local public/private system where teachers are local, and it seems that they might be paid privately, but community is responsible if that fails.
YS, some drone sightings were real and arrests were made. “If you are paranoid, it does not mean that there isn’t anyone after you” – applies to the country also, not only individuals.
gobrit > using your smartphone to spend all day posting on ywn coffee room isn’t exactly the best occupation and can intrude on your life and family time a lot
Arguably, sitting with your haverim without smartphones and saying wild denigrating things about members of other communities you never talked to is less productive than going to YWN and actually exchanging opinions with those who hold other opinions.
YS > catching a teacher doing something the Yeshivish velt considers wrong
so why not catch a teacher driving a car? A CAR! It might have a radio. It might take you to some places of disrepute and even some modernishe shuls.
I do agree that the problem is not with hte kids but the adults who conditioned them to value nonsense above respect to T’Ch or even just human beings.
BTW, if those teachers are Torah teachers, these children should be taught a halocha of asking the teacher in a respectful way – why were you doing X if the Torah says Y? (and in most cases, after the fact, so that there will be no hint of disrespect).
Why not just use traditional numbering “in the 4th year of president Biden”, this seems to be the most common usage during Roman empire and other countries. Roman republic just used the name of one the councilors, given that both of them had one year terms.
CE (Vulgar Era) is attributed to the astronomer Kepler. I think he used the term when he was showing that it is “wrong” in a sense of being several years of the event his religion was trying to commemorate. So, in that sense, when we use these numbers, we are reminding the velt that they can’t even get their dates right.
> Meaning in America as I understand it even if I am allowed to do something if someone gets harmed they can sue me
Israeli Supreme Court Judge Menachem Elon worked hard on how to weave Israeli/Turkish law with halakha. He explains the difference between Roman/Brit/American and Jewish approaches – in Roman law, it is caveat emptor, the buyer/victim needs to protect himself and sue if necessary; in halakha, the seller/perpetrator has an obligation not to hurt others. Examples: one with the higher roof needs to build a fence not to look down (BB). Thus, halakha needs to be simple enough for the person to ensure unbiased decisions: a pigeon within 50 amot belongs to the house, outside – does not. R Yirmiahu raises an issue of a pigeon standing on the line and he is expelled because he questions this whole idea of a farmer making decisions for himself.
Safety of the oven that you are quoting is similar: if you are following regulations, you are not liable, right? You can choose not to follow them, but then you’ll be liable for damages (aka sued).
Another interesting example: Yaakov feels something is unusual in Mitzraim where a prime minister suddenly has humane regulations, establishing limits and selling to foreigners during a famine, this is not a usual goyishe law.
A big question here is – when do we support goyishe law in their form and when we push it towards higher Jewish norms. The answer is probably realpolitik – if society might be ready, we can suggest higher ethics; if not, work within the goyishe mishpat.
Bensolomon, I am sure what you are saying applies to many people and should be used. At the same time, you should focus first on creating the right environment – kids can use phones to stay in contact with friends and family, follow Jewish and world events, learn grammar and math, check out shidduchim. A lot of this is better done on computers rather than phones, of course.
This is normal use of technology. It is not different from cars – that can also take you to bad neighborhood; go thru red light; etc. Or from books. A lot comes from examples. I was happy to see that (some of) my kids started driving and ask me questions – was I supposed to let this car go in front of me? They possibly do it because I was pointing out to them when I let someone in a difficult position into the road or lane.
Of course, if there are abuses, measures need to be taken.
We have at least 4 new years, including a new year for kings. There is nothing wrong with celebrating getting a W2 or 1099 form for the year.
for those who are interested in effectiveness of non-profits, you can look up raw data at IRS form 990 and there also charity navigators that evaluate charities across multiple financial parameters (some may be not that important)
I think TU is 13-5564128 National Society for Hebrew Day Schools. Maybe it is only part of TU, I don’t know,
I see latest info on IRS siste – $54.2 mln income, of which $44.6 mln is spent on grants ($27M domestic, $17M foreign), $4.3 mln on salaries (of which 8 officers account for $800K), $4 on other expenses.charity navigator:
FY 2022 revenue $71M Program Expense: Ratio – 96% (pretty good)
no audit (expected from charities with $2M+)
website does not link 990 formsomejew > If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
Despite all our references, you continue in your circular thinking: everyone who disagrees with Satmar Rebbe is against Torah and thus needs to prove himself. We showed that many Rabonim that you disapprove had some level of approval or personal respect from important rabonim that you presumably respect. Note that those rabonim do not always agree 100% with Satmar shita also… So, it seems that the world of Torah is not neatly divided into two camps, one of which miraculously agrees with you, and the other – kulo kofrim.
I do agree with your desire to have all rabonim express clear opinions about each other so that we have it on record. It is, perhaps, a Jewish ideal – and this is how it was when we had a Sanhedrin, where Talmidei Chachomim were able to argue their positions and come either to an agreement or to, at least, understanding their differences. I also wish we could put pro- and anti-Z and any other topics in the same room in the presence of the students of their yeshivas and have a learned discussion. For some reason, this is not happening for quite some time. Vilna Gaon, for example, left his house when Alter Rebbe tried to have such a discussion… In our times, it may be that each of the Rabonim does not see value in arguing with each other, but rather in pursuing activities he finds productive. Would it help anyone to R Kotler argue with Lubavitcher Rebbe or R Soloveitchik? Maybe it is to the best that one od them grew yeshivas, another looked for Baalei Teshuva, and third one organized day schools for children of colleege-educated … we need all of the above ….
a relevant anti-regulation example is that we allow people to take water along the river as they come from upstream down, rather than measuring everyone’s water intake to ensure “equitable” distribution. Lfnei darchei shalom. somewhere in bava metzia.
frumfemale > They’re doing it because they see an excuse to disrespect the teacher,
you are probably right. Once, an elderly rov told me, with a smile, that he works as a “goyishe teacher”, that is he is teaching history in a yeshiva and that is how students see him despite his appearance … So, this disrespect is indeed the core problem.
ard > I dont know of a single rov (not modox) who said to vote for biden.
Ard, any rav who says to vote for anybody better be an employed professional and not run a non-profit. Otherwise, he might lose his non-profit status.
The dismissal of “modox” rabbonim is a way bigger outrage against Torah than voting for Biden, lo aleinu.
Ben Ish Hai on vayigash ponders, theoretically I think, about a difference between the thieves. A poor person stealing out of hunger should be dealt with chesed. A rich person who steals shows that this is his character. In parallel to Ben soreh vemoreh he might be judged based on his future tendency, namely, he eventually is going to steal so much that he will not be able to pay double fine, so it is better to make him a slave now, and he won’t want to steal because it will belong to his owner anyway. This is in relationship to dialog between Yoseg and Yehuda regarding the cup Benyomin allegedly stole.
I would expand this from “rich” to anyone who is able to earn livelihood but prefers stealing l. Same logic seems to apply.
two recent articles NYT about Israeli war on hisbolla and WaPo about Biden, give these positive and negative points:
– Biden thinks that his infrastructure and other policies are good for the country in long-term, he pursued them even if they are not politically beneficial (this is stated, not proven how beneficial they are)
– Biden is trying to be helpful in current transition, spending extra time w/ Trump and planning to attend inauguration
– caveat, this WaPo article is based on B’s public statements and interviews with his helpers, “Wh House did not make Pres available for the interview”
at the same time
– he still thinks he could have won if he ran
– he thinks that his Justice Dept was wrong for not prosecuting Trump faster, and for prosecuting Hunter too much
on Israel (NYT)
– after Oct 7, and Hizbolla attack on Oct 8, Israel was considering an immediate attack on Hizbolla . “After talking to Biden on Oct 11”, this plan was shelved. I wonder how more successful Israel would have been if they immediately prevailed against Hizbolla, leaving Hamas fully isolated
– before killing Nasralla, the decision was made not to inform Us in advance, as it was judged that US will not support it lehathila, but will go along bdieved.An interesting story from a biography of R Ysroel Meir Lau, Israeli chief rabbi. After WW2, he was an orphan in case of his uncle and was learning in R Shlomo Zalman’s yeshiva. The uncle wanted him to prepare to pass bagrut. R Shlomo Zalman said that while there are no secular studies in the yeshiva, he can study on his own in the evening in the dorm. Some time later, Rav asked Yisroel how are his preparation for bagrut are going. He answered that he became interested in philosophy and history, but does not like physics and other sciences. R Shlomo Zalman was shocked – you are not interested in how Hashem runs the world. When on a bus, I often hear Hebrew Univ students talking about science and I am fascinated by it, how could you not be?!
KGN > I don’t think that DL hates us for non-conscription because
I don’t think other observant Jews “hate” “you”, whatever you call “you”. This over-the-top “hate” accusations often happen in Israel when politicians take away some privileges from the Charedi community. Someone else not wanting to pay for your expenses is not “hate”. Simply, people think they can spend their tzedokah money on something else. They are entitled to that.
(Part 1/4) masis … madiach … “yimach shemo” …
Thanks, this is a great start for a Torah-only response! A freileche chanuka and all the best wishes to the mods who had to read the rest of it.
Seriously, rather than focusing on some Rabonim that you find so objectionable, look at the bright side. We provided you here with several names of Rabonim who are less controversial than the targets of your wrath. Could you look at their writings and see how your position corresponds to theirs. You may be better capable of having “Torah only” discussion when you look at texts that you consider Torah.
This may be a silly argument when you are suggesting full gov regulation v. full lack of it. Start with the current situation and start deleting the ones that look not reasonable. There are plenty of those. Of course, there is always a fight and with a normal approach, a Republican president will cut some, and then a Democratic one will add 10x of that …
Reagan’s idea was to starve the beast by reducing taxes and thus decreasing ability to spend more on government. This achieved something but the government adapted. Look at the student loan multi-step trick. First, Obama changed the loans from a private to a government program, even counting theoretical savings to find Obamacare. Then, Biden is trying to give the money away, mostly to their own supporters. This will not be possible without the previous step of “saving money” that voters already forgot about. See, how difficult is to restrict government from inventing new ways to manipulate us.
Trump’s idea now seems to be to go faster and cut bigger pieces in order to overcome resistance. Surely, he’ll cut something necessary at some point. Hopefully, it will not be too drastic for human lives. Otherwise, there always be a place to re-do what is necessary.
Yasher Koach, Wolf.
Chaim > After SNAP, HUD, Medicad, HEAP, CHS they come out ahead. The issue is for middle class earners who work and try to earn enough yet its impossible to afford tution even on a 200K salary
First, I agree that this is the problem. This is what Gingrich tried to resolve in the 90s – multigenerational families and whole communities find it easier to receive than to move up incrementally and be temporarily worse off … Maybe your suggestion on tuition will be a similar push. I do not know how tuition committees work – do they take into account all source of income and expenses?
Personally, my suggestion for working people is NOT to provide financial info to the schools, simply negotiate at a fair level that reflects your costs. I usually find it 40-70% of top tuition. What is your experience?
yechiell > biden sent tons and tons of armaments to israel
True, as the Hur report says, he is a nice old gentleman who wishes well (after achieving his own benefits). Look up a recent W0SJ report finally documenting that President was not at full capacilty l’hathila, he often responded to what information was channeled to him thru aides. He is trying to do the right thing here and there, without determination to actually achieve anything. In domestic policy, this leads only to inflation; in foreign relationships, it lead to multiple disasters.
ujm > About 50% of the Daati Leumi join the IDF as religious Jews but by time they exit and are discharged they are irreligious.
where is this statistics from?
I do agree that there is a reason to be concerned about charedi students not being prepared to confront life outside of their community. So, potential solutions should create a special environment for them – and charedi leadership should be helping creating such an environment. And also educate their children accordingly so that they don’t melt from the exposure to life.
Ubi,
I presume the value of lawsuits would be preventive:
it takes years and lots of money to build a factory. If you know that you’ll be sued even some years later, you presumably will not get money from investors to build it in the first place.I am not saying I am against all regulation, just calling for considering alternatives. I, in my business, not polluting anyone’s waters and I am responding to so many government requests that it takes a significant cost and attention from running the business. So, I do believe that there is overreach.
somejew > mods continue to not publish my Torah-only response
Was it the one where you read and analyzed Rav Soloveitchik’s essay and discussed what you agree with and what you do not?
I did not see it.TryingToHelp, if you are trying to help, maybe you can create a website with online assessment so that people could administer this test “remotely over the internet”?
Chaim> In other words why doesn’t it create a fund to solve the tuition crisis. … They’d also have to apply the value of govt programs.
What you describe as “tuition crisis” is the fact that there are too many members of the community who do not earn enough and even rely on “govt programs” for poor people even when they are capable of working. Then, you expect someone else to raise $100M. Why not focus on teaching commuinty members to earn enough and organize schools that help that?
Sanhedrin 5 talks about stealing and then using for kedusha. Next time, include that page with the cheese.
ubi > Lets start with one Specifically environmental regulations . I have a factory that produces hazardous waste fumes
this is all discussed in Nezikin. In US, you will be simply sued, poss class action. and lose your factory. I am not saying it is ideal way to deal with environmental regulation, but this should work.
Presidential authority to limit immigration seems to come from Section 1182 that was first authorized for WW1, then extended to national emergencies
from congressional research service, Feb 2024:
current version of Section 1182(f) authorizing the President to suspend the entry of aliens or classes of aliens if such entry would be detrimental to the interests of the United States derives from the initial passage of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) in 1952.e Supreme Court has understood Section 1182(f) to convey broad authority to the President to limit the entry of aliens into the United States. In the 1993 decision Sale v. Haitian Centers Council, Inc., the Court upheld the validity of an interdiction program established by President George H. W. Bush through Executive Order No. 12,807, which was based on the authority under Section 1182(f). According to the Sale Court, “[i]t is perfectly clear that 8 U.S.C. § 1182(f) grants the President ample power to establish a naval blockade that would simply deny illegal Haitian migrants the ability to disembark on our shores.” In the 2018 decision Trump v. Hawaii, the Supreme Court interpreted Section 1182(f) as granting broad presidential authority to suspend the entry of aliens
somejewiknow, did you look at R Soloveitchik’s works? He is not as ideological as R Kook and is not always agreeing with religious zionists (and kal vehomer with non-religious zionists), so maybe you will be able to relate to his Torah views of modern Israel, whether you agree with him or not. Let us know what you think.
ExCTL, currently majority of financial aid comes from federal source. It is great that CT uses FAFSA here. There are other state that explicitly provide student aid for illegals. I have no problem with that, it is up to the voters of the state. A side of effect of central powers given to Feds is also that state powers became weaker and there is less competition, leading to most seats being non-competitive. Bring more power back to states, and the passions invested in electing a president will convert into local elections.
Btw, current presidency advertised their upgrades to FAFSA (and then failed to make the site work). There was one change that affected Jews among others – “family index” changed to “student index”, that is they are not taking into account other children in the family being in college at the same time. This was _not_ heavily advertised. We just bunched up 3 college students at the same time and felt good that we can finally fill out FAFSA but then saw what it does… I wish we had a first amendment that would let newspapers tell us what the government is doing to us…
yechiell > Polio has made a comeback because that nutcase RFK and others have brought it up, as a topic of conversation…was president for 4 years, and allowed this kind of talk to fester
I looked up google trends – and polio is as much a topic of conversation as it was most of the time from 2004, with one peak in July-Aug 2022.
Interest in polio vaccine is similar, with the exception of same topic, plus during covid pls last several days. So, ^ statements are counterfactualfake > Should I commit fraud or eat a piece of USDA American cheese?
We should also distinguish between Cheese and American cheese.
> where someone chose to go with Cholov Yisroel and fraud.
Although we are not allowed to believe this story, it is hilarious. Presuming the victim figured out the trick (say, he heard this happened to someone else) – could he substitute the stam cheese instead: as this was not baal nefesh, there is no good reason wasting perfectly good money. If the lender would suddenly agree to lend the money, he would take the cheese back immediately.
To clarify,
I am not saying that there are no people who need medication. I observed a number of children who were told by their Jewish schools to not bring kids to schools unless they are given medication; and a rav who sent his kids to same schools (his kids did not have problems) told me that ALL kids behaved in a couple of classes that were taught by great teachers. This leads to a conjecture that there is a lot that parents, teachers, and people themselves can do. This is not to brush off medical professionals, but if something can be treated non-medically, there is a good reason to approach it with Jewish point of view, whether using knowledgeable T’Ch or their seforim. The advantage of seforim is that you get access to best advise available globally, after that you can use the local people to help you. I addressed this poster specifically as he showed a good level of understanding himself.Also, note R Moshe’s psak allowing psychiatrist drugs but to be more careful of psychological help from non-Jewish POV.