Always_Ask_Questions

Yserbius,
this seems like a collective version of the following effect: you earn $100, you remember it for a minute. You lose $100 and you are upset about it. Same here: we have 1,000s of unelected people spending billions of dollars and you are OK with that. Suddenly someone comes and cuts some of that spending and you are worrying. Did you worry before about what was done (or not done) under previous administrations? I’ve seen sometimes how they make these decisions, and it is a draw of luck: some are reasonable, and some are totally crazy, based on very limited thinking from one particular person, based on political leanings, etc. Just to make you feel a little more comfortable, I saw a quote from Musk that his madness has a system: he suggested to rescind regulations wholesale – and then see if some of them were actually useful, they’ll put them back.

phil > Talking about social security

Phil, I think that your attitude that you don’t need to follow the laws that you don’t find convenient is a bigger issue than what will happen with social security. In a democracy, voters will come to some consensus how to spend money and how to support old people. And you will be able to express your opinion. And please consider any offense you perceive society perpetrated against you in the context of all the good that you enjoy daily. Sorry for sounding like Obama “you didnt build that”, but this goes back to, I think, Ben Azzai who wondered in morning brochos how many people had to work that day to make all the things he will be using.

Lav > He told me that in his experience it is very unlikely for a teen with a smartphone (even if they only use it for Kosher content) to grow up frum, let alone a Ben Torah.

I am ok with not using smartphones, but, in the interest of Emes, this statement is only partially true. It is quite possible to raise Torah-loving children with phones provided they are surrounded by parents and schools that teach and monitor kids appropriately. What this menahel is saying that within his framework, where defence of Torah is primarily by building siyagim, then the smartphone is a breach that he does not know how to repair.

Just do a thought experiment: would it hurt a kid, if a kid will be using a computer only together with his thoughtful parent to access Torah resources; math quizzes; communications with Savta; buying tzanua clothes on Amazon? Obviously not. So, probably deviating somewhat from that ideal will also not hurt them too much. Just find the right dosage for a particular kid.

from halakhipedia, these are some starting points for the discussion.

One who does not pay taxes violates a Torah commandment of “lo tigzol” (Vayikra 19:13), as one is stealing from the government. Shulchan Aruch C.M. 369:6. Rabbi Menashe Klein writes that tax evasion is equivalent to hafkaat halvaa, withholding payment for debt, which is only prohibited in case of chillul hashem (Mishneh Halachot, Chelek 12, Siman 445).

One who violates tax laws of a country with a legitimate system of taxes is obligated to pay the resulting fines. Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 369:7; Rambam, Hilchos Melachim 4:1, Hilchos Gezeilah 5:12

A Jew is permitted to work a tax agency and turn in Jews found guilty Shevet Halevi, Chelek 2, Siman 18

It is prohibited to avoid paying taxes in a democracy such as the United States. Shu”t Igrot Moshe CM 2:29, Shu”t Shevet Halevi 2:58,

taxes nowadays would not only be binding because of dina dimalchuta dina. Paying taxes is also your obligation to the partnership because taxes are used to provide services to the citizens (fire, police, military, garbage, mail etc). All the people of the city, state, country have to contribute to provide for that. Thus, one who withholds his taxes is not only taking from the government. He is taking from the other citizens, which inevitably includes other Jews. Rav Schachter

According to some poskim, patronizing a Jewish merchant who cheats on his taxes violates the biblical prohibition of lifnei iver. Rav Schachter ?

Maybe you can start by asking your clients what their Rabbis pasken about this? It would be interesting to see the range of opinions.

As far as I know, there might be a heter to cheat oppressive governments, especially when there are laws targeting Jews, but not of democratic governments. But maybe there are other views. I am surprised that some people ^ just quote their feelings to allow something like that.

maybe you can have a discussion with your parents and come to a compromise.

One suggestion – do you need a phone or any internet-connected device. I understand that some parnosos take require a phone – an uber drive, hgatzola, lhavdil, drug dealer. Otherwise, you can have a full computer with a big screen in a living room, turned towards the public so that everyone can see what is on the screen. That could solve a lot of concerns they have. You can have whatsapp on the computer also. And show that you are responsible individual otherwise.

Neville > Because if I’m going to have a state that can coerce me into giving it money and being subjected to its will, then I want it to be as limited as possible. States are free to “compete” by giving us even more rights that what the Constitution guarantees, but I see no advantage to the consumer in them being able to give less.

Constitution gives certain rights to the Feds. The rest is between States and people (or towns). States can not give you _more_ rights. That is, if Feds can regulate interstate commerce, they have it whatever the States say. What happened from 14th Amendment and on, the rights of the states are minimal – both Feds and People got more. On a positive side, we live in a reasonably free country and enjoying a lot of rights. On the negative side, we lost the ability of individual states to implement different systems of government, whether in culture or in economics. I am calling your attention that a large portion of current political wars could be resolved by doing it differently in different states.

> That’s a cute way of justifying only using the parts of the Constitution that serve your shittah, but it’s a nonsensical distinction. You now have to also ignore the Constitution’s ability to be amended so that you can justify ignoring all amendments, but to do so would ignore part of what you call the “ikar.”

I am not calling for a revolution. I am suggesting using existing political process to favor restoration of state powers where possible, The fact that such system existed – and had certain flaws that led to civil war – makes it easier to analyze. If you consider original American idea a success, then you’d pay attention to the lessons and maybe go read federalist papers. If you follow modernishe view that the country was founded on aveiros only, then you’d advocate for a federal government that will solve all the problems. I don’t think this is your shitah.

Nrville > being subjugated by private companies is no better than being subjugated by the government. I don’t agree with them, because in a free market you can take your business elsewhere

exactly this is the problem with the government – monopoly, and, as I am saying, a state system partially alleviates this problem by providing competition between state governments. I am not sure why you don’t agree with this, maybe I do not understand your arguments, such as:
> If a state wanted to make their own currency, and refuse to do business with any other state, what would stop them?
article 1, sec 10, see text below

> makes the commerce clause a “fundamental of the Constitution” while the 14th amendment is just something you think should be scrapped?

14th amendment came later after civil war. Constitutional structure existed from the beginning. Ikar v tofel. My argument here is that this structure of competition between government is gradually decreased over time and it may be worth going back to. For a comparison, think of how Roman Republic changed over time into Empire. Interestingly, modern historians start using the term “empire” from the time of .. Emperors, duh. At the same time, say, Tacitus who lived at that time, describes his government as republic with emperors. He sees emperors as part of republican government, although he realizes that there is a change happening. He seems to define it as a Republic as long the Senate is there and it goes through motions confirming emperors, approving wars, and doing all the other Senate stuff – all of that while describing in detail how weak and corrupt the senate became. for example, when the next emperor approaches Rome with the army, Senators abandon current emperor and run to the future one to proclaim that they always were on his side.

#article-1-section-10-clause-1
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it’s inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

some > Ever Jew is obligated to keep the Torah and the Torah’s rejection of Zionism is a refection of fundamental of Yiddishkeit.

You might have been exposed to very partisan info at some point, but you participated in several discussions here where you were exposed to a number of sources that show there are a number of Talmidei Chachomim that hold, to a different degree, pro-medina views – and you continue repeating that there is only one position. Maybe “Zionism” is a loaded term, so that you can easily say it refers to specific anti-religious views and activities and rightfully reject them, and then, mistakenly, mis-apply this disapproval to kosher Talmidei Chachomim. The other alternative is more disturbing – that someone with reasonable Jewish education and can not be classified as tink shebanishba can reject Torah authorities who happen to disagree with him.

Ap is credible to say what they mean and provide explanation to their statements. In this case, it is an oft repeated reference to studies of immigrants in general to make a statement about illegals crossing Rio grande ..
All you need is some reading 📚 comprehension.

> I see the litivsher velt learned the chasidisher way of life

yes, assimilation. Even without such overt copy. And without admitting how far from litvishe mesorah they are going.

Neville, states had those rights as you admit; Connecticut did have official religion. Things changed after post civil war amendments when rights were expanded to states, maybe also some court decisions. I am sure there are lawyers here who can explain further. And that was not the end of changes, with income tax, direct vote for senate allowed dramatic expansion of federal government. You can try to restore state rights without restoring slavery, of course.

Again, difference between moving to another country is that states have common language, economy, interstate travel and commerce making moving between states easy.

Neville > The way you worded it made it sound like you would always vote yes on any new regulation proposed by a state regardless of its merit,

Of course, I’ll vote according to my own sechel. What I am saying, a lot of things that are considered, l’havdil “sacred” by one or another side of american politics, will be ok to be violated at state level. USA will still work if Connecticut will have an official church and if Pennsylvania quakers will ban all guns. Early on, all freethinkers from Massachusetts moved to form Rhode Island and both states survived fine. If things will be difficult, maybe enough Yidden would move to South Dakota and make it into a halachik state that will live in peace with a sharia state in North Dakota.

With less federal power, we will stop these silly high stake battles for president. You want to have high taxes, live in a state with high taxes … The Presidential elections then will be mostly about military and foreign politics.

Ard, there is no question that chabad was early in caring for the non religious jews in US. r Soloveitchik writes about this contradiction we are discussing in 1940s, under previous rebbe

ard > you consider them apikorsim there is no issur of loshon hora

so, people standing on street corners trying to find all lost yidden are apikorosim, but those who sit in their chadorim not even noticing the tragedy of millions are the tzadikim allowed to say loshon horo? Olam afuch … As R Soloveichik remarked to the argument that he learns less time than other gedolim due to his interest in philosophy: when they learn, I learn; when they talk loshon horo about me, I study philosophy.

Avram > [about states] They have to be constitutional.

of course. Note that this notion stretched over time. First amendment et al initially applied to feds only. States were able to have government-sponsored churches, for example. I guess slavery issue is by now settled. I presume the rest of bill of rights was applied to states after civil war.

> What’s the difference between your argument and telling people if they don’t like it they can just move to another country?

this is the critical part of the US design. The difference is that US provides uniformity of culture and law. You can move between states without going thru immigration, keeping your property right, dollar bank account, have same language, walmart and mcdonalds, and even your job nowadays. And you can always move back. In math terms, you have 0 switching costs, allowing optimal allocation of resources. Moving from Poland to Germany may be close geographically but way more difficult. It was even worse before EU that tries to emulate USA idea. People risked their life to jump over Berlin Wall.

Competition between businesses works all over the world, except China and Russia. Government monopoly stifles economy everywhere. This ability to move creates competition between (state) _governments_. So, when we make issues federal, we remove this ability for governments to compete. In other words, federal gov is a cartel created by politicians to avoid competing with each other at state level and stick it to the people. Any unnecessary, unsupported by Constitution federalization should be, thus, prosecuted as a illegal cartel under RICO or something.

Neville, it is not my point, here is what one “modernizer” said:
What we have said about this from the beginning is that the entire position of the stargazers is regarded as a falsehood by all men of science. I know that you may search and find sayings of some individual sages in the Talmud and Midrashim whose words appear to maintain that at the moment of a man’s birth, the stars will cause such and such to happen to him. Do not regard this as a difficulty, for it is not fitting for a man to abandon the prevailing law and raise once again the counterarguments and replies (that preceded its enactment). Similarly it is not proper to abandon matters of reason that have already been verified by proofs, shake loose of them, and depend on the words of a single one of the sages from whom possibly the matter was hidden. Or there may be an allusion in those words; or they may have been said with a view to the times and the business before him. (You surely know how many of the verses of the holy Law are not to be taken literally. Since it is known through proofs of reason that it is impossible for the thing to be literally so, the translator [of the Aramaic Targum] rendered it in a form that reason will abide. ) A man should never cast his reason behind him, for the eyes are set in front, not in back.

I am, frankly, for almost any regulations at state level.

If majority becomes too overbearing, people can move away to other states. If the persecuting minority is a small group, then it is better that they move to another state than continue fighting. If small majority tries to impose it’s will, and then 10+% of population moves away, the state would suffer economically and possibly reconsider.

This approach is way better than a small majority imposing their will at federal level.

ChatGPT FACTCHECK:
It is incorrect to day that Nazis started WW2.

First, Germany responded to an alleged provocation by Polish army
After that, Britain and France declared war on Germany
Two weeks later, USSR declared war on Poland.
So, many countries started WW2 and Germany was only one of them.

Rambam in Letter on Astrology: Know, my masters, that it is not proper for a man to accept as trustworthy anything other than one of these three things. The first is a thing for which there is a clear proof deriving from man’s reasoning—such as arithmetic’ geometry, and astronomy. The second is a thing that a man perceives through one of the five senses—such as when he knows with certainty that this is red and this is black and the like through the sight of his eye; or as when he tastes that this is bitter and this is sweet; or as when he feels that this is hot and this is cold; or as when he hears that this sound is clear and this sound is indistinct; or as when he smells that this is a pleasing smell and this is a displeasing smell and the like. The third is a thing that a man receives from the prophets or from the righteous. … something will happen one way and not another, and that the constellation under which one is born will draw him on so that he will be of such and such a kind and so that something will happen to him one way and not another—all those assertions are far from being scientific; they are stupidity. There are lucid, faultless proofs refuting all the roots of those assertions.
…
science of the stars that is genuine science is knowledge of the form of the spheres, their number, their measure, the course they follow, …On all this and the like, the wise men of Greece, Persia, and India wrote compositions. This is an exceedingly glorious science. … How many amazing conditions are made intelligible by this science, all of which is undoubtedly true. It is this calculation of astronomical cycles of which the (Talmudic) sages said that it is wisdom and understanding in the sight of the (Gentile) peoples (Shabbat 75a). But as for these assertions of the stupid astrologers, they are nothing

ard > that it’s not a yeshiva bochur’s (or yungerman’s in this case) job to worry about the hostage deal. his job is to immerse himself in torah as much as possible

as I mentioned, we might not have the context for RY words. I posted my guess. But as to your interpretation, a person who is learnt in Torah obviously should have an ability and a desire to reflect on what is happening in the world. As an example – R Avigdor Miller suggests we learn lessons from what is happening in Vietnam, because if you don’t learn from that, you might get a lesson closer to you … in this case, those lessons were pretty close. Of course, one might argue at which point of learning one should engage with the world and where a particular student stands.

Simcha, sometimes kids simply repeat what they read in the papers and maybe even start arguing with each other using words from opposing papers or tiktoks, so this could be referred as devarim betulim. Maybe this is one of those “you have to be there” moments to understand what the discussion was about.

> I would recommend you retract what you said about believing in mazalos because it is just flat out denying Torah sh’beksav.

I think he is also on firm ground if he follow Rambam on this.

WSJ report (full version, not YWN) says there were several stipulations made by Trump’s envoy:
to Israel
– if hamas reneges on the agreement, US will fully support resumed fighting
– US will work with Israel to create Gaza government without hamas
to Arabs
– US will press on Israel to continue with the 2nd part of the deal

Neville, the problem with “secular” midnight is not that it is goyish, but it is not based on any physical event.

Hatzos is defined by the time between sunrise and sunset. As we see with DST, midnight is totally a human convention. For example, if you have two cities nearby in different time zones, as often happens in US when they are in different states – do their mazalos differ by an hour? And whole China is one big time zone – so their 6th hour could be in the middle of the night or day.

So, you are trying to be traditional and follow a minhag and then tie it to a totally artificial convention.

As to the main sugya, it may be that both following and ignoring mazalos have respectable traditions. For example, gemorah has a lot to say about amulets (but provides for an empirical procedure to test their efficacy), while Rambam rejects them. We could apply Pascal’s wager here (if you are an agnostic – not sure that G-d exists, it is less risky to be frum) and follow mazalos, unless you can encounter a large expense, such as paying for an extra hour for the wedding hall. For some, just having their soup cold on Shabbos evening outweighs other considerations.