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@RebEliezer – interesting comparison. I recall it is also if patient says that he needs to eat, we listen to him too. In modern terms, doctor knows statistics for general population; the patient himself knows himself best. I do not recall an option to consult a tzadik. .. So, you can either listen to CDC or be more careful.
R Meir Twersky addresses an additional question in his teshuva – when there is a new unfamiliar disease, it is not enough to listen to one doctor as information is not certain. Also, do not listen to politicians, as they have their own political reasons that are not the same as our standard on saving lives.
se2015. I agree positive rates are not a precise statistics. But it is an early predictor. Overall excess mortality would be a better measure – but it is available maybe a month later after the deaths, or 1.5 months after the first infections. You can go back over last several months and compare excess mortality with positive rates 1-2 months before – and see if positive rates predict mortality.
There are other ways to get early predictions – google searches for “I am coughing”, wifi thermometers, but I am afraid best predictor would be population activity level, especially inside (schools, bars, shuls), and percentage of people wearing masks …
@Reb Eliezer There is a ruling (psak) that someone who contributed to his illness should not be davened for
I think this psak should be publicized and posted everywhere … the article quotes an oral ruling. Is there a written version?
This psak may shock some people into submission. But maybe not those who already are not able to imagine things beyond their immediate perception. Can someone ask for a psak – can such pere adam be not called to the Torah, any other immediate consequences?
I am genuinely curious: I see many posts with people declaring great insights into public health data, overriding public health experts and potentially contributing to killing people in their own communities and Hillul Hashem. How do you make sure your analysis is correct? Is there any way you can – for your own sake – test your ability to make judgments here? For example, do you have an advanced degree in public health, statistics, biology? This is not a necessary condition, of course. But if not – could you google online, for example, an advanced test in statistics and see if you can pass it?
To start the discussion, here is a multiple choice question:
You go to a street and ask two random people: does the bus N 5 pass on this street. One person said yes, one – no.What is the probability of bus N 5 passing on this street:
A. 50% B. More than 50% C. less than 50%.Re: Tehilim for Trump.
First, it may be late to question the tehilim, they apparently worked. So you probably wouldn’t want to retract tehilim after Hashem accepted them.
2nd, President Trump did use multiple measures: frequent rapid tests for himself and others around him; social distancing for everyone else. Secret service is great at enforcing social distancing. How does the psak apply in such a case? For example, to shlimazels who wear mask on one of the two face orifices or take the mask off to talk to others.
3rd. We might have different criteria for heads of state. Jews prayed for health of various kings and emperors, many of whom were involved in pretty unhealthy activities
@Hakatan re: questioning that someone who witnessed Hillul Hashem can call it as such without having a smicha.
I heard directly from a community Rav who stopped a black-hat person on shabbat without a mask and explained to him that this is Hillul Hashem. The person replied that whose who want to avoid him are free to walk around.
@hakatan, today’s Daf Yomi Eruvin – if you see something against Torah, esp Hillul Hashem –
you need to act and not to defer until a more senior person issues a psak. [contrasting with the usual case that you do not issue psak in front your Rav]@rational, I agree. Seems like American Jews assimilated into free speech and separation of powers – even those who do not learn this at school. This never ended well, of course – with Rome, Spain, Germany … I think we should be both grateful and mindful at the same time.
HaKatan – government did not release the virus on Jews, at least it is not US government. Thus, it is not a gezerah shmad. We do not blame TV forecasters when it rains in the Sukkah.
Whatever your mayor and governor say, the outbreak is objectively happening. You want less outbreak – make your community be more careful; do teshuva for any other aveiros related or unrelated to the pandemic.
There is a teshuva from R Mayer Twersky in May stating (predicting?) that all politicians will have their own motives, and we should make our judgment based on Torah values independent of what politicians are saying. You seem to be so carried away blaming a politician that you are ready to hurt yourself to prove your point.
I see in a protest letter – “how dare they close shuls ner a holiday”? Maybe Hashem is sending these politicians to davka protect you near the holiday, so that you can learn in a healthy state the whole year ahead.
Syag,
could you help me understand how this 2 positions can be reconciled:1) dont tell me that I need a mask, it is my private issue
2) high infection in my community is due to overcrowdingyou expressed each of these positions clearly, thanks. I just do not see how this machloket between
Syag and Syag can be reconciled.coffee, just contact whomever you consider a gadol, or ask your local Rav to consult whomever he consults. And then please report the answer here as this is the public matter. If you don’t receive the answer, you can post that also.
Syag. All I am saying: if you live in small apartments, you should be more cautious. You listed multiple reasons thru several threads why you should not be more cautious.
Other poor community you mention consist of people who work in risky conditions and have low education.
A community that learns Talmud should do better.
Syag,
thanks for fixing my post. Let me return the favor, then.You seem to be claiming that religious Jews should behave same as other communities, but, due to smaller apartments, they will understandably be affected more by the pandemic, and that’s OK. We can keep our equal rights sustained, sorry, grandpa. We’ll say the kaddish with no masks, don’t worry.
Syag, apartment sizes do matter, indeed. Hard to judge which part of the problem is due to human factors and which due to environment. I can understand other locations mostly by newspaper photos. Some photos are zoomed in on someone and it is hard to say whether they are representative of general behavior. Still, I saw many wide-area Israeli and NY photos showing many people in masks, and many without; on the beard; on the mouth only; taken down to talk to a neighbor. Is it different from non-religious Israelis and Americans? not sure. But why should we hold religious Jews to such a low standard?
I agree with everyone here – yes for davening, yes for hishtadlus, and yes for being open-minded…
on one hand, davening is better than burning tires and starting protests….
On the other, to protect Yserbius from being accused of insensitivity, we can look at the idea of “sheretz b’yado” – can we daven while doing averos (not just passively not doing hishtadlus …)?Presuming that a plague is a punishment and lesson for us – we should at least try to discern the lesson and learn from them. Some of the “lessons learned” I heard are usually simply an extension of the speaker’s agenda, adding Covid for better taste.
OrechDin – you mention poskim in Israel who require masks. So, if a Rav of a shul follows that psak and someone shows up without a mask or in a half-mask – what happens? Do they get an aliya? Or do we now have separate shuls with and without masks?
Maybe we could use a 2×2 mehitza with traditional men/women separation in one dimension and mask/non-mask dimension in another. I saw this happening spontaneously sans the mehitza.
@GH, I agree that sometimes this bracha does not feel authentic. Indeed, I once witnessed how an elderly congregant broke down on Yom Kippur in some country during this prayer “Why do we say this? They are murderers.. They killed my family” …
At the same time, as we all choose to live in this country (we are all free to leave, right?), I think we should acknowledge it. Thankfully, we do not have to say “adoneinu” as both my Russian and Austrian machzorim say, but why not wish “Hashem give wisdom to …”. Should also apply to governors, unless you are still voting Federalist.
We had more difficult cases.
Look up old machzorim. I have mahzor from one side of my family with a prayer for Kesar Nikolai Alexandrovich (and a named list of his wife and children) and from another – for Franz Jozef.I don’t think one would be allowed to have both in his house during WW1…
School IT person should have an admin account and students should have a local account. Admin account should NOT have “613” for the password.
Administrator should be able to disable wifi. See link 1. I think bluetooth access may depend on a computer model and is often switched on using an external button. See link 2 that describes how to switch it on. Use in reverse.
If you have already disabled Wifi, you might not be able to see the links or even read this, of course…
links removed, sorry