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DY, Mrs. Syag,
let’s go step-by-step so I can understand your logic.There are numerous cases and groups of people who disregard DS and masks in their shuls and schools, and who disregard state mask orders. I am excluding gray areas here. Many people, including myself, see them, and they are all over photos, and the photos are not all done by evil chilonim. Do you agree with that?
The fact that these people contributed to extra deaths seems to be straight-forwards from statistics. Do you agree?
You can argue that some communities live in small urban dwellings, etc. This is a reason not to accuse people wholesale based on statistics, but this is not a reason not to be careful, just the opposite.
Is there an over-reaction on the other side? I don’t see it, but will be happy to discuss. I personally just go around un-masked people. I have to admit that I was ready to use a chair or a foot to clear space when unmasked Hamans showed up at the end of Purim davening with their gifts – but just the look worked.
DY, to clarify: the question was during a lockdown in that state, when the activity is question was against the rules. It was an oral ruling, not in writing. Similarly, at the same early time, R Heinemann responded to a question whether one can do minyanim with people standing on different porches, etc to stay within the rules. His response – a passerby will not delve into minute details, he will just know that Jews are doing something questionable – and then, some Jew may be denied a ventilator because of that. Using this criterion, our current minyan is OK: a passerby snapped a picture of us during a snow day and – when I looked – showed a thumbs up.
Israel now reports that 90% of hospitalized are those who did not yet vaccinate. This is a picture in transition while some are partially vaccinated.
I think when US reaches same levels, the issue will resolve: priovate and Obamacare insurance will start asking for vaccination status, workplaces and schools will to. It is really issue of social convention. Right now, schools ask for flu vaccine even when kids do not go to school, and it is considered normal.
Ms. Syag >> Are you for real?
on peshat level, it seems to be the case that COVID may leave a lot of internal damage, not seen originally.
For me personally, the biggest shock of the pandemic is how many Jews and whole communities behave irresponsibly and feel no shame about it. Specifically, people who claim to learn. So, you learn all machlokets of Abbaye and Rava, subtle arguments of what is or is not real mesorah, you can use kal ve’homer, and you learn maris ayn, and all examples of behavior by Talmidei Chachamim – and then you disregard simple public health measures, kill your Rosh Yeshiva, and go to his funeral without the mask. I may have rachmonus on such a person, but for sure I do not want someone like that in my family.
Speaking about vaccines and shidduchim:
do people put there covid, mask and vaccine status on shiduch resume already?
if not, do people ask?it cuts both ways – some may not want a candidate with potentially damaged lungs, others might be happy that the candidate survived OK..
ujm: You have Gedolim on both sides.
I am with GH here. So, you are using a reference to unnamed gedolim and will only follow them when there is an anonymous opinion?! and if not, you’ll do whatever you want? Is there a specific Rav you are following on this?
Same question for tristate – did you ask? video? what is the date on the video?
DY >> Tongue in cheek much
no, very straighforward – I am arguing _these_ are issues that require more attention.
meta-question – whom would you ask? A posek is a democratically “elected” figure – it is a person who is being often asked by other deciders. Now, if most of questions being asked are not in this area, then we might not have a well-developed poskim in the areas we are not asking questions. “our fault”, as we discussed before. Maybe time to start is now.
>> Are they rodfim? Is it muttar to kill them?
Again, subject to previous conditions, you should use least extreme measures you can. Traditional measure is to isolate from the society. Frankly, this already happened. A lot of people who can do it moved recently out of big cities. So, if you or I live too close to people who do not follow the rules, we should maybe just move. Of course, there are people who, for various reasons, are not able to move.
>> if everyone else is vaccinated, why would they care if some weren’t?
If sizeable portion of population (20%) will not vaccinate, then pandemic will continue at reduced rates (20%?) level and will be endangering even those who are vaccinated. I hope it will be soon known whether one can rely on antigen tests to see who really acquired immunity, then at least we will know who should be more careful – or maybe take extra vaccines …
rightwriter,
may I ask you – did you have a chance to learn halakha and if you comfortable to disclose – where? and did you have a chance to run your questions by your Rav or Rosh Yeshiva?ujm >> Is it proper to recommend what is best for public policy even if it may be bad advice for different individuals?
Following example seems to show that one needs to be honest and recommend what is good for the person in question: students that were starting demonstrating for Soviet Jews in the 1960s asked (among others) R Soloveichik. Rav S asked someone in Israeli government – what is best for Soviet Jews. That person replied that it is better to stay quiet. Later, Rav realized that he was lied to: Israeli government thought it is based for Israel to stay quiet, not necessarily for Soviet Jews.
DY – yes, the Israeli study is the first indicating reduced transmission. this is an early study with some caveats if you read reporting to the end. Even with this condition, there are two others that I mentioned. The next question is how to stop them. Anti-maskers are visible, so you can usually walk around them and exclude from the company. Maybe in the future non-vaxers would need to wear, indeed, special signs that people know to avoid them.
This thread is drunk. Bobby Fischer had nothing to do with Open-O.
He might have been a meshugane but he was much smarter than that.
He did have great openings, though.I could not find Esther in the Parsha, but found two Vashtis… why two?
DY: I think they are wrong, but rodfim?
There might be several arguments why they are not currently rodfim:
1) If they take serious precaution measures, equivalent in effect to vaccination, they are not.
2) I believe there is no determination yet that vaccine sufficiently reduced transmission, although there are preliminary estimates. so, this would be sofek rodfim.
3) while there is a shortage of vaccines, someone else could use it.Note that none of these justifications apply to those who are not taking precautions.
It took Covid for kids to realize that they can give shaloh-monosto each other and their parents!
common,
DON’T DRINK and DRIVE!!!WALK
RebE, thanks! interesting, how a discussion about waste of time turned out not to be one!
L’ChaimHere is an exercise:
there was early report from a French hospital that smokers in that hospital are surviving COVID better than the others. Numbers were pretty clear.
Now, we have smoking as one of diseases that gives a priority to get a vaccine.question: what was wrong with that French hospital result? Drink a little and think about it.
The writer has a point. Maybe he could petition to open vaccine-free restaurants for non-vaccinated only. The food will be even cheaper as the chef does not need to care how the food smells, so he could use left-over from the other restaurtants.
I am not sure Supreme court will allow back of the bus reserved for the vaccine-free
>> why didn’t Rav Shimon Hamosini think of Rebbi Akiva’s darush
best explanation, imho, I forgot the source: R Shimon for sure saw a possibility of such an answer. He was a baki, after finding derashot on all previous ones. But, in tis case, he felt that even if he can come up with an answer, it is not the EMES here, so he just followed Emes despite losing all his previous academic work. Now, you made me thinking, maybe, even more – he JUMPED at the opportunity to
1) receive a unique award for retracting. He had so many rewards for derashot, he did not care for one more, he knew the value of retracting is higher!
2) teach his students the value of EMES at the expense of his career. So, we need to review this regularly, he wanted us toremaining question: how did R Akiva then dare to say the rejected opinion? He saw R Shimon – chachamim like that deserve the yerah like Hashem
And feel comfortable to share this dvar Torah – it is not mine, I heard it from Lakewood R Nosson Wachtfogel Z’L. I did not put his name first, expecting someone reacting to a “Rebbe” designation for Esther. I was surprised by his choice of words – maybe I looked modernishe? – but I see a big applied value in his message for the CR room on who can pasken.
>> reglaim is never mentioned in the torah,
Ex 20:14 שָׁלֹ֣שׁ רְגָלִ֔ים תָּחֹ֥ג לִ֖י בַּשָּׁנָֽה׃
plus purim, chanuka and lag b’omer – here are 6 feet min HaTorah!
masks? Hester Panim, of course!
PS Crystallization – and this is of course straight out of Hoshen Mishpat: judges are not supposed to listen to one litigant without the other.
RebE, agree on R Shimon darshening “es”, my favorite example of intellectual integrity.
Famous Psychologists Kahneman/Tversky talk about crystallization: if you get 2 contradicting pieces of information, the person tends to accept the one that came earlier. That may explain why people have hard time changing their opinions about politics or COVID as they get attached to their first impression.
I did not go to all these interesting references, but I want to confirm the math part:
26.4%, down to 20.1% would be a 23.9%.One question is what is uncertainty of the estimates.
You would also need to accept that there might not be a simple answer here: there are multiple variations to be tested: doses, early/late interventions, combinations, and it will take time to go through all of them at high confidence.
The question is how to act under uncertainty. The answer is to balance risk and reward.
I saw some articles that advocates several cocktails with multiple specific components, including hCQ, zinc, etc as long as they are relatively safe. Trying to uses and evaluate a cocktail together, instead of separate elements.
>> it is odd to select specifically Indian food for seudas Purim.
It does happen but does not end well. Muslims do set up seudot in India, then Hindus run in shouting “WHERE IS THE BEEF”. Seuda first, shehitah after
@RebE: I don’t see where she was rhe rebbi.
just as I looked up pesukim where Esther is mentioned before Mordechai, Bach amended “Rava and Abaye” to Rabba in Pesachim daf yomi, because teacher is listed first … confirmed min hashamayim? We use a similar order analysis to show that Mordechai fell out of favor due to his political activities.
here they are:4:14 Mordechai teaches Esther
4:15 Then Esther sent back this answer to Mordecai [that includes instructions for all Jews and her mesilas nefesh decision. How does she have hutzpah not to ask her Rebbe?! because she the Rebbe now, she is not even asking Mordechai for recognition]
לֵךְ֩ כְּנ֨וֹס אֶת־כָּל־הַיְּהוּדִ֜ים הַֽנִּמְצְאִ֣ים בְּשׁוּשָׁ֗ן וְצ֣וּמוּ עָ֠לַי וְאַל־תֹּאכְל֨וּ וְאַל־תִּשְׁתּ֜וּ שְׁלֹ֤שֶׁת יָמִים֙ לַ֣יְלָה וָי֔וֹם גַּם־אֲנִ֥י וְנַעֲרֹתַ֖י אָצ֣וּם כֵּ֑ן וּבְכֵ֞ן אָב֤וֹא אֶל־הַמֶּ֙לֶךְ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר לֹֽא־כַדָּ֔ת וְכַאֲשֶׁ֥ר אָבַ֖דְתִּי אָבָֽדְתִּי׃
“Go, assemble all the Jews who live in Shushan, and fast in my behalf; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens will observe the same fast. Then I shall go to the king, though it is contrary to the law; and if I am to perish, I shall perish!”and he listen to instructions
וַֽיַּעֲבֹ֖ר מָרְדֳּכָ֑י וַיַּ֕עַשׂ כְּכֹ֛ל אֲשֶׁר־צִוְּתָ֥ה עָלָ֖יו אֶסְתֵּֽר׃ (ס)
So Mordecai went about [the city] and did just as Esther had commanded himLater, Mordechai becomes even more hashuv, but he is listed second almost always:
8:7 וַיֹּ֨אמֶר הַמֶּ֤לֶךְ אֲחַשְׁוֵרֹשׁ֙ לְאֶסְתֵּ֣ר הַמַּלְכָּ֔ה וּֽלְמָרְדֳּכַ֖י הַיְּהוּדִ֑י
9:29 וַ֠תִּכְתֹּב אֶסְתֵּ֨ר הַמַּלְכָּ֧ה בַת־אֲבִיחַ֛יִל וּמָרְדֳּכַ֥י הַיְּהוּדִ֖י
reversed though in 9:31, which can be explained as Mordechai’s letter going out first
לְקַיֵּ֡ם אֵת־יְמֵי֩ הַפֻּרִ֨ים הָאֵ֜לֶּה בִּזְמַנֵּיהֶ֗ם כַּאֲשֶׁר֩ קִיַּ֨ם עֲלֵיהֶ֜ם מָרְדֳּכַ֤י הַיְּהוּדִי֙ וְאֶסְתֵּ֣ר הַמַּלְכָּ֔ה>> not farmilar with a measurement called reglaim,
actually 4 amot is about 6 reglaim or 2 meters …. basically privacy is as far as you can spit
@DJT (and other politicians & doctors) Feb 2020: The coronavirus is very much under control in the USA.
This is about when my wife put masks on all of us when flying despite people looking at us.
Now I know whom to listen to.
RebE: Later I wrote a detailed teshuva justifying my decision.
Curious, how did you avoid being biased by your original decision when looking up sources!?
Unless, you had all sources in your mind when you made the original decision@nischt: you can just eliminate a part of davening because of tircha
minyan already skipped pesukei d’zimra. There are numerous recent teshuvot for COVID about it. One teshuva offers a klal: you can skip some parts, but it should not be so short that it just feels like it just touches the main points: shma -> shmone esre -> aleinu.
you may be right whether this is “tircha”, I see that you and RebE started a scholarly debate. You can call it tzaar baalei chaim. People were freezing. Some people may go over their limit of cold without realizing it. Especially, American city youngsters.
rebE – there was no issue of getting up. Nobody was sitting for a long time (first sign that they were cold). Maybe I had a choice of saying all kadishim faster than you can say Mississippi, but it seems I feel the same way you do: when there is a strong reason to skip, just do it firmly.
L’Maase, I once observed a Rav, who is proud of slow davening, going super-fast and skipping one kaddish (in Sephardi nusach). Then, doing some tehilim slowly. I asked – he said the 10th told him he was about to leave for work.
Bobby Fischer was a brilliant chess player and probably was mental to begin with.
He then became world champion while standing up to a collective action of Soviet chess federation. This whole adverse process could crack stronger souls. Later on, Victor Korchnoi ran away from USSR and also played against the whole country – and lost, in the process claiming that his opponent was getting forbidden drinks and that a Soviet doctor was hypnotizing him. In the hindsight, now that we know about polonium teas, it is hard to say whether this was real or paranoid…You can survive mental ordeals though. Samuel Reshevsky, who lived in Monsey, did not played on Shabbat, and, at least in later years, played in a beret, and behaved in general. Also did not always like Fischer.
Amalek, like SAR-COV-2, attacks those who are weak, old, and walk in a disorganized crowd.
The strong, young, and healthy need to step in the fight to protect, starting with their own yetzer hara.
If the young do not help, they will be overwhelmed also (some immediately, some after becoming old)
>> learned from my students
RebE, I totally agree with the general notion (one reason to ask quertions and to hear questions), but confused how this relates.
Are you saying that M is still the Rebbe, but he learned from E, rather than E becoming the Rebbe? Interesting interpretation , but it does not seem to fit better. It is not just one advice that E gives to M, she starts consistently acting as a Rebbe. It is a one moment switch at the time of mesirus nefesh. Interesting – deciding on it, not even acting yet.
>> is that our personal experience doesn’t reflect the horrendous plagues in the past.
Agree. There are 2 parts here:
1) pandemic is happening in the hospitals and nursing homes. you do not always see it. I heard a Rav on Zoom for several weeks (WITH a negative test but with a cough I never heard before), this made enough of an impression. That is why you need to use your math skills to evaluate reports of number of people dying and sick to understand something that is not in front of your eyes. There are lots of people who work with infectious diseases or radiation who are capable of keeping precautions without seeing a threat. Or you can talk to hatzolah people for their impressions.
2) numbers are indeed lower than under Bubonic plague. It is to a credit of humanity that we are taking measures to save lives of many of older and sicker people, and not behaving like Amalek.
Maybe this a double test Hashem sent us – first for our intellectual abilities and second for rahmanus. Maybe a final test before Maschiach comes?
PS a story to support the argument for both me and common to ask our Rabbis:
a friend of mine long time ago lived in a kipa sruga neighborhood and was bothered that his slightly pre-bar-mitzva son would play soccer and not go with him for mincha to the shul one block away. So, my friend took a bus with his son and me to a posek in Mattesdorf, hoping for the posek to give chizuk to the boy. The posek asked the boy how long does it take to say mincha on his own, and then asked whether the boy can interrupt soccer game and say mincha on the side of the field. The boy agreed and the father was shocked. Moved to a more yeshivish neighborhood eventually.common > especially in regards to halacha such as not saying a kaddish
common, let’s be positive (thanks again, Mrs. Syag) ! we are absolutely on the same page.
I did not have azus to disregard halakha of tircha in such extreme situation, when seeing my fellow Jews showing such mesiras nefesh, trying to keep their hands and feet warm, while still holding a siddur. Not one left early. Not one tried to move out of shade into the sun at the expense of neighbor’s place. Some of them, relative after- or in-college youngsters, who probably never experienced such challenge before. If you would have seen such nachas with your own eyes, you would have rachmonus on them too, as rachamanut is said to be a sign of Jewish nations as taught by “Moshe Rabbanu and Yshua ben Nun”.
Still, waiting if you have asked your Rav (when explained both the kaddish and the freezing part) and whether he thinks differently. I would be interested to hear his arguments.
Charlie & Franklin: We must all hang together
that was pre-covid and pre-Trump.
>> your friend is a friend but the Rebbi is a guy?
the one from the story was definitely a guy, not a gal, and not a Talmid Chacham (based admittedly on a strict criteria). I can’t fully vouch for the story but it illustrates a lot what I see.
To be clear, I am in no way denigrating those wonderful teachers who work l’shem shamaim.
What I often see is that many people, both mena and women, are educated in a way that teaching is their only viable profession. Then, some of them are not really into that but they have no other job, and now they are teaching the kids. And this is happening for a couple of generations already, so this attitude becomes the norm. Again, I have greatest kavod for real teachers and always look for them.
YWN reports that Israelis came up with some substance that can be inhaled. 10% of the mispalelim who did not inhale were positive, 2% of those who inhaled, and 0% of those who did not come. Is this positive enough?! 10% is staggering, ithis is what Romans called “decimation”. At least one per minyan.
Mordechai and Esther – who is the Rebbe and who is the student?
First, Mordechai is the Rebbe. Telling Esther what to do. Then, Esther commits to go to Ahashverosh. This is mesiras nefesh. That makes Esther into the Rebbe. She starts telling Mordechai what he and Jewish people should do after that.
A lesson for students on how to become Rebbes.
RebE mitzva of mishloach manos
thanks for the reference. I think one can clearly deliver MM safely and halakhically correct. I can pack it 2 days in advance with gloves and put a note to that effect. This is more of a public policy issue: – how would a community behave.
I am thinking that better not to participate. Last Purim, when issues were not yet well understood, I had to duck from several huggers. Delivering MM is supposed to make people friendlier. If I’ll be bumping into semi-dressed drunk people and walk around them, it will not contribute to ahavas yisroel.
PS disregard the previous shaila, of course the whole family can hang together
ok, height is chameshim amos, but what about bein adam l’havero? shisha reglaim as by CDC, or is it hukas goyim?
Talk radio has a propaganda aspect influencing masses, that I am not fond of, and an educational aspect that is good. You hear not just pronouncements, but arguments and discussions.
I listen more to NPR than to AM radio to get familiar with their reasoning. Does not mean that I agree with them, but I am sure that when I take a position I know what the counter-arguments are. Some here have a curious view that they refuse to listen to the other side – and then pronounce their judgment based on quotes they picked up somewhere. You can not be sure that you are not being biased. You see that a number of reasonable people found something in Talk Radio, so you should investigate and make a reasonable judgment.
PS It appears some liberal-minded Israelis have more integrity than Americans. A story that one Israeli academic told me: “I chose” not to be observant … Then, my older son, growing up, started mocking Datiim. I told him – if you want to talk like that, you need to at least know what you are talking about. So, he went a took a class. Became shomer Shabbat. Does not eat in my house anymore. Then, my 2nd son – same story repeated… (One of them is involved in right-wing Israeli politics). <end of story>. I give this guy a lot of credit – especially that he said the same thing to the 2nd son after what happened with the first.
Leyzer,
if your kids can’t just fight with each other without external help, you are doing something wrong!Find online questions about Purim and print it with one kid so that he can ask others and then give them prizes. Make some questions simple, and others open-ended, so that a couple of kids could disagree and make it into a discussion. See YWNCR as an example!
Ask everyone to prepare a story and 3 questions after that. Everyone votes on best story. Again, prizes.
meir G. Bravo, let’s make sure no child is left behind! Expose everybody. If it is ok for your kids and students, how dare they
common > we then will set up a gallows in our back yard and hang up some people and then party again
You should ask a shailah about it. Gallows need to be seen from reshut harabim according to my tradition.
It would be good if those who feel that there is a problem here, went and asked their Rav. Maybe we can learn something here? I do understand your emotions – Yiddishkeit contains lots of ritual acts; we are habitually under assault; so we need to protect ourselves.
Still, logically, there should be more shailos about lhavero than l’makom. Most mitzvos l’makom are not changing quickly over time and do not change over a person (except strict shiurim that our zeides did not use). Mitzvos l’havero depend on the person you interact with. So, you may be asking whether you are allowed, for example, to post on YWN disagreeing with someone – many times. It may well maybe that you can reply to AAQ in a way you would not to Wolf or GH …
As an exampl, I just listened to a class on Purim: long discussion whether one is yotze when a present is not accepted and a cursory note: of course, things are different this year, people will not congregate and drink in my house. I asked a couple of doctors and they say, giving matanot is not generally a problem. By me, a novel issue would require a little more investigation: would people actually meet and some talk? would they cough while packing? would they start giving it to each other in a crowd after megilla reading? But, no, it is more scholarly to go through all achoronim on an issue that will not affect most of us.
FOCUS on what is important.
Avram, thanks for the Moscow diamond story.
Note the differences between my examples and yours: my were about learning from what a Rav did and often with an explanation. This is straight halakhic reasoning. Of course, it may be possible to argue that the story is not true, or that there are other opinions, or other circumstances. Yours is a story that something happened. ext, you’ll tell me that bat kol confirmed your position?!The story is interesting, I can’t resist asking kashios: how did Bolshevik coup in Petersburg happen in Moscow, and why did some Bolsheviks went after Jews on that day instead of going after the Provisional government as they were supposed to? Maybe someone paid some diamonds to get out after Bolshevik revolution and needed a story to explain how he escaped.
My other argument is that we always choose what is important to ask. I recently quoted a responsa from last April: right now, no questions about dinei mamonot, only nefashot. The counter-argument seems to be – hey, yes, we know we should ask more about Hoshen Mishpat, please do, but first , there is another O’Ch shaila we need to finish. I saw a simple rule in a sefer: parent/spouse should be 80 positive. So, make 4 positive comments, then you can allow yourself one negative.
Try the same with shailos for at least 50-50: do not ask about l’makom before you asked about l’havero. Any takers?