Always_Ask_Questions

>> rav’s opinion, which was that distanced outdoor minyanim are so unreasonable

I’ll put aside considerations of hillul Hashem and following the laws, as we are focused here on things that can be proved by objective research. for this purposes, I am applying this psak to those cases where objective research can be applied.

>> What are your “hard numbers” on the effectiveness of masks?

Look at Jeremy Howard, et al An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19 published in PNAS Jan 2021. A review of various studies.

The issue includes more than masks – SD, air flow, HVAC. It is clear that all of these significantly reduce risk. My sources include multiple articles on airflow simulation, discussions with a distinguished aerospace engineer, and my own experiments measuring airflows in several rooms, including a shul under controlled conditions (with/without people; with windows/doors opened, far/near vents).

Important statistical question – how correlated is mask rejection and vaccine rejection? are these independent issues in people’s minds or do we have same people denying everything?

why is it important? say, 20% of people refuse each of them. If these are the same people, then you can expect pandemic to continue raging at 5x lower level. If these issues are independent, then only 4% of population (0.2*0.2) will be fully unprotected and we can expect significant reductions at the end…

Argument for independence – people are bring unrelated reasons for each of the rejections. Argument for correlation – the reasons are excuses, and the rejection in both cases is based on distrust of science and authorities, independent character, ignorance, lack of empathy.
Can we take a vote on 2 issues at the same time:

reluctance to wear masks and to take a vaccine from 0 to 10?
mine: 0 and 2

Charlie: There was a big decline in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths in NYC after the BLM rallies.
Syag: Had no more serious a spread than other minyanim.

you_all guys need to start asking shaylos from your local Rabbis/PhD….

Charlee – Indeed. There is a paper analyzing this. Mobility data explained what happened: rallies scared most other people from going to downtown and going out in general.

A similar effect might happened in Syag’s shul: vulnerable people were coming less to maskless minyanim, and more to masked ones. Also, if you are saying multiple (more than 4) people getting it at the same time, it means “masked” minyanim were not really taking full measures correctly, such as closed windows; ventilation that does not have filters and goes into their faces; prolonged davening; flimsy non-medical masks bouncing on the nose; exempting chazan; reading Torah close together, etc. We discussed this here at length early on, too bad you didn’t digest this info to them.

> nearly half of cancer treatments never underwent the golden standard double blind trials.

I googled for this phrase, and seems that missing part is “emergency authorizations” or something like that. I agree, in general, that in emergency we should be relying more on observational studies, especially when safety risks are small. Performing small blinded studies could compliment this.

The issue is also confounded with a need to consider multiple settings – who to give, when to give, etc, as discussed above. Note that A-Z Phase 3 was almost derailed by a simple fact that there were two different doses. Uncertainty of interpreting multiple arms is harder. You can’t just say “HCQ+zin given at day X” worked, when you went through 100 different combinations – as your success is a random result out of 100.

Note that this is still science, just harder science than blinded tests. One type of such math is called “multi armed bandits” (as in Vegas): you run multiple arms and estimate two things – possible effect and remaining level of uncertainty. Sometimes you want to explore more of arms that have more uncertainty even if they did not show sufficient result yet.

DY, not just koron, but CORON OHR … don’t need no Torah codes, the peshat is here
nisht: do not make up your own reasons.

these are not my reasons, I think most commentaries say it is to not embarrass others or not to make them used to it (Chizkuni), or make it posibble for people to come for judgment.

Moshe was wearing it all the time, except when teaching (Ohr HaChaim, Behor Shor) or only when communicating with Hashem, (Kli Yakar, Tur HaAroch) or both (Rashi, Rashbam, R Bahya). This seems like an argument for those who want to teach without masks, as student needs to see teacher’s face (Seforno, Chizkuni, Eruvin 13: R Yehuda being zoche “seeing back of R Meir”).

Moshe retained the rays for his whole life (R Bahya), so he was wearing mask on and off for 40 years. So, don’t claim it is not possible.

Seems a machloket between Onkelos saying that he used more than N95, a full mask, and Yerushalmi meikel on just a one-layer cloth mask.

Syag >> to say you are complimented and throw in a joke and a smile, and then make sure to leave a pinch in your exit.

I am not trying to pinch anyone, h’vsh. I am just saying that it is a possibility to consider: if you see something not fitting, maybe your measure is off. Need to analyze.

As you confirmed that this is directed towards me but did not specify the issue, I’ll try to guess: my previous comment was about who is a posek. Are you of the opinion that current poskim are ordained via urim v’tumim? I am mentioning the process of how one Rav gets recognized by others, and that there are also specialists in specific areas. All of that expanding on a remark from a Rav, who has many decades in official roles in a pretty mainstream community.

DY, we seem to have a different recollection about specific case – whether it was illegal at the time. The lesson I learned is that if someone behaves irresponsibly or illegally, he should not be relied to for his judgment.

Please note that this is not just about different opinions. I am fine if you stand for kiddush, and I sit. The question is about several opinions, each of them having downsides. I don’t think even exacting Daas Torah takes you off the hook. Say, you go to the Rav and say – my son does not know how to swim, and he needs to take a dangerous boat to learn Torah. So, Rav says he has to stay home and be an ignoramus. It is still your fault that you did not teach him how to swim (Kiddushin 30).

Same here. If your posek determined that your community can learn and daven without SD and masks (reasoning that otherwise you’ll not learn at all), it is still your fault.

And the reason I talk about people walking in the streets w/out masks, because it is a shocking indicator how careless these people are even when a required effort is minimal.

DY, Mrs. Syag,
let’s go step-by-step so I can understand your logic.

There are numerous cases and groups of people who disregard DS and masks in their shuls and schools, and who disregard state mask orders. I am excluding gray areas here. Many people, including myself, see them, and they are all over photos, and the photos are not all done by evil chilonim. Do you agree with that?

The fact that these people contributed to extra deaths seems to be straight-forwards from statistics. Do you agree?

You can argue that some communities live in small urban dwellings, etc. This is a reason not to accuse people wholesale based on statistics, but this is not a reason not to be careful, just the opposite.

Is there an over-reaction on the other side? I don’t see it, but will be happy to discuss. I personally just go around un-masked people. I have to admit that I was ready to use a chair or a foot to clear space when unmasked Hamans showed up at the end of Purim davening with their gifts – but just the look worked.

DY, to clarify: the question was during a lockdown in that state, when the activity is question was against the rules. It was an oral ruling, not in writing. Similarly, at the same early time, R Heinemann responded to a question whether one can do minyanim with people standing on different porches, etc to stay within the rules. His response – a passerby will not delve into minute details, he will just know that Jews are doing something questionable – and then, some Jew may be denied a ventilator because of that. Using this criterion, our current minyan is OK: a passerby snapped a picture of us during a snow day and – when I looked – showed a thumbs up.

Ms. Syag >> Are you for real?

on peshat level, it seems to be the case that COVID may leave a lot of internal damage, not seen originally.

For me personally, the biggest shock of the pandemic is how many Jews and whole communities behave irresponsibly and feel no shame about it. Specifically, people who claim to learn. So, you learn all machlokets of Abbaye and Rava, subtle arguments of what is or is not real mesorah, you can use kal ve’homer, and you learn maris ayn, and all examples of behavior by Talmidei Chachamim – and then you disregard simple public health measures, kill your Rosh Yeshiva, and go to his funeral without the mask. I may have rachmonus on such a person, but for sure I do not want someone like that in my family.

ujm: You have Gedolim on both sides.

I am with GH here. So, you are using a reference to unnamed gedolim and will only follow them when there is an anonymous opinion?! and if not, you’ll do whatever you want? Is there a specific Rav you are following on this?

Same question for tristate – did you ask? video? what is the date on the video?

>> Are they rodfim? Is it muttar to kill them?

Again, subject to previous conditions, you should use least extreme measures you can. Traditional measure is to isolate from the society. Frankly, this already happened. A lot of people who can do it moved recently out of big cities. So, if you or I live too close to people who do not follow the rules, we should maybe just move. Of course, there are people who, for various reasons, are not able to move.

>> if everyone else is vaccinated, why would they care if some weren’t?

If sizeable portion of population (20%) will not vaccinate, then pandemic will continue at reduced rates (20%?) level and will be endangering even those who are vaccinated. I hope it will be soon known whether one can rely on antigen tests to see who really acquired immunity, then at least we will know who should be more careful – or maybe take extra vaccines …

ujm >> Is it proper to recommend what is best for public policy even if it may be bad advice for different individuals?

Following example seems to show that one needs to be honest and recommend what is good for the person in question: students that were starting demonstrating for Soviet Jews in the 1960s asked (among others) R Soloveichik. Rav S asked someone in Israeli government – what is best for Soviet Jews. That person replied that it is better to stay quiet. Later, Rav realized that he was lied to: Israeli government thought it is based for Israel to stay quiet, not necessarily for Soviet Jews.

This thread is drunk. Bobby Fischer had nothing to do with Open-O.
He might have been a meshugane but he was much smarter than that.
He did have great openings, though.

DY: I think they are wrong, but rodfim?

There might be several arguments why they are not currently rodfim:

1) If they take serious precaution measures, equivalent in effect to vaccination, they are not.
2) I believe there is no determination yet that vaccine sufficiently reduced transmission, although there are preliminary estimates. so, this would be sofek rodfim.
3) while there is a shortage of vaccines, someone else could use it.

Note that none of these justifications apply to those who are not taking precautions.

common,
DON’T DRINK and DRIVE!!!

WALK

Here is an exercise:
there was early report from a French hospital that smokers in that hospital are surviving COVID better than the others. Numbers were pretty clear.
Now, we have smoking as one of diseases that gives a priority to get a vaccine.

question: what was wrong with that French hospital result? Drink a little and think about it.

>> why didn’t Rav Shimon Hamosini think of Rebbi Akiva’s darush

best explanation, imho, I forgot the source: R Shimon for sure saw a possibility of such an answer. He was a baki, after finding derashot on all previous ones. But, in tis case, he felt that even if he can come up with an answer, it is not the EMES here, so he just followed Emes despite losing all his previous academic work. Now, you made me thinking, maybe, even more – he JUMPED at the opportunity to

1) receive a unique award for retracting. He had so many rewards for derashot, he did not care for one more, he knew the value of retracting is higher!
2) teach his students the value of EMES at the expense of his career. So, we need to review this regularly, he wanted us to

remaining question: how did R Akiva then dare to say the rejected opinion? He saw R Shimon – chachamim like that deserve the yerah like Hashem

>> reglaim is never mentioned in the torah,

Ex 20:14 שָׁלֹ֣שׁ רְגָלִ֔ים תָּחֹ֥ג לִ֖י בַּשָּׁנָֽה׃

plus purim, chanuka and lag b’omer – here are 6 feet min HaTorah!

masks? Hester Panim, of course!

RebE, agree on R Shimon darshening “es”, my favorite example of intellectual integrity.

Famous Psychologists Kahneman/Tversky talk about crystallization: if you get 2 contradicting pieces of information, the person tends to accept the one that came earlier. That may explain why people have hard time changing their opinions about politics or COVID as they get attached to their first impression.

>> it is odd to select specifically Indian food for seudas Purim.

It does happen but does not end well. Muslims do set up seudot in India, then Hindus run in shouting “WHERE IS THE BEEF”. Seuda first, shehitah after

>> not farmilar with a measurement called reglaim,

actually 4 amot is about 6 reglaim or 2 meters …. basically privacy is as far as you can spit

RebE: Later I wrote a detailed teshuva justifying my decision.

Curious, how did you avoid being biased by your original decision when looking up sources!?
Unless, you had all sources in your mind when you made the original decision

Bobby Fischer was a brilliant chess player and probably was mental to begin with.
He then became world champion while standing up to a collective action of Soviet chess federation. This whole adverse process could crack stronger souls. Later on, Victor Korchnoi ran away from USSR and also played against the whole country – and lost, in the process claiming that his opponent was getting forbidden drinks and that a Soviet doctor was hypnotizing him. In the hindsight, now that we know about polonium teas, it is hard to say whether this was real or paranoid…

You can survive mental ordeals though. Samuel Reshevsky, who lived in Monsey, did not played on Shabbat, and, at least in later years, played in a beret, and behaved in general. Also did not always like Fischer.

>> learned from my students

RebE, I totally agree with the general notion (one reason to ask quertions and to hear questions), but confused how this relates.

Are you saying that M is still the Rebbe, but he learned from E, rather than E becoming the Rebbe? Interesting interpretation , but it does not seem to fit better. It is not just one advice that E gives to M, she starts consistently acting as a Rebbe. It is a one moment switch at the time of mesirus nefesh. Interesting – deciding on it, not even acting yet.