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Avi K > please cite where Rashba bans secular knowledge
this was from a quote on sefarimblog by by Edward Reichman and Menachem Butler Feb 2021.
Here is the full footnote on Rashba. some of these may be online.For an overview of the controversy, see David Berger, “Judaism and General Culture in Medieval and Early Modern Times,” in Cultures in Collision and Conversation: Essays in the Intellectual History of the Jews (Boston: Academic Studies Press, 2011), 21-116, esp. 70-78. See also Joseph Shatzmiller, “Between Abba Mari and Rashba: The Negotiations That Preceded the Ban of Barcelona (1303-1305),” Studies in the History of the Jewish People and the Land of Israel, vol. 3 (1973): 121-137 (Hebrew); David Horwitz, “The Role of Philosophy and Kabbalah in the Works of Rashba,” (unpublished MA thesis, Yeshiva University, 1986); David Horwitz, “Rashba’s Attitude Towards Science and Its Limits,” Torah u-Madda Journal, vol. 3 (1991-1992): 52-81; and Marc Saperstein, “The Conflict over the Ban on Philosophical Study, 1305: A Political Perspective,” in Leadership and Conflict: Tensions in Medieval and Early Modern Jewish History and Culture (Oxford: Littman Library, 2014), 94-112.
There is actually a medicine for hoarding, I keep a couple of boxes in the closet.
Right behind the box of medicine from gaava that I didn’t find any use of.Syag >> how drastically different your “quote” was from the truth?
I do not. I suggest you actually say what you mean. I listened to his talk off his website.
sorry for mixing up Twerskys with Twerskis – is there a split in the family based on the y/i?!ujm > seforimblog isn’t reliable.
they refer to a sefer where letters were published, and they have a longer account that what I read previously in one of the R Twerski’s books. Maybe someone could look up the original and report? A fascinating topic. I agree that their description of 2nd critical letter from The Steipler does not fit well with R Twerski’s conclusion that he got The Steipler’s blessing. Maybe there is something missing in the re-telling.
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Syag, I mean R Avraham Yehoshua Twersky Z’L, the psychologist. Thanks to your question, I revisited the story I thought I knew and it turns out more complicated:
Rav Twersky wrote to his mentor The Steipler in 1955 asking for his advice on choose a profession. I saw several sources descriving the letter a little different. Maybe someone has access to the published letters and can confirm. Most of below comes from seforimblog Feb 2021:
He asked wither whether he should go to medical school or a general question about a non-Rabbinical profession. The Steipler replied that medicine is preferred as it is a mitzva to learn it and is excluded from Rashba’s ban on secular knowledge. He suggested being stringent in – learn in depth at least two hours a day; attend all minyanim; go regularly to the mikva; be strict about Shabbos – not to read secular/science literature, learn musar daily.
There was a second letter, where R Twersky asked about his choice of being a Rabbi in low-observance community (and impact on his children) or being a doctor. The Steipler replied that rabbinate is preferred, but that R Twersky will become also become a successful physician (and it will make his observance even more challenging). R Twersky got from this that he went to be a doctor “with The Steipler’s blessing”.
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Syag, thanks for the clarification. Are you suggesting excluding, say, February-April 2020 from the analysis? Thanks, I’ll try to look at that, bli neder. I do need to say that DW made us fly in masks in mid-February already, and I was ducking embraces from people when delivering shalahmonas… Mi hu haham. haroeh at hanolad …
Rav Twersky suggest studying physiology to appreciate Hashem’s vision. He says – you don’t have to do it in yeshiva, could do it at home. The way he says this last sentence off-hand makes it unclear to me whether this is a preferred way to do it at home, or is it his pre-buttal to those who would disagree with teaching science at school.
>> The Bill of Rights was added because some wanted to strengthen the legal basis.
I understand that there was an interesting machloket between American avot: if you have a general statement that anything not in constitution is reserved to states and people, this is enough to protect personal liberties. Furthermore, if you list specific rights, then you are implicitly allowing for additional restrictions. The “paranoid” insisted that we should protect them anyway. I think modern experience of ever-expanding state powers justifies the paranoid (“if you are paranoid, does not mean that there is no one after you”).
>> Amendments 1-10 were added soon after adoption of the Constitution
There would not be enough states to sign constitution without bill of rights, so they should be considered part of the main body.
Ctlawyer >> There is NO law that separates religion and state in the USA.
to be precise, First Amt originally meant Congress. Your state had a state religion and it was perfectly constitutional. Paying state taxes to a specific church was ok, even in states where other religions were allowed.
n0> You have a reasonable way of making yourself unreasonable.
if you agree with my method but disagree with my conclusions, you should revisit your conclusions.
>> Torah is democratic.
this seems to be the preference as we see from Shmuel’s discussion with people who wanted a king, and his decision to appoint a weak shy kid looking for his donkey… to be more precise, Berachot 55a and other places seem to recommend an appointment system, akin to a limited republic, where a leader is appointed with agreement of the public. Also constitutional limitations imposed by Torah (Sefer Torah for a king), that was not always fully working (Agrippa weeping when reading that he is eligible to be a King, and people approving him). Overall, seems Torah allows for people to come up with our own solutions for leadership that may change with times as long as it makes us a better People. Cf. Shlomo and Rehovaam – they had the same position, and Rehovaam insisted in the same taxes (against recommendation of his father’s advisors!) and opposite results. So, it is not just about optimal tax rates, but about leadership
> WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO PREPARE FOR ANOTHER DAY
Kidushin ~ 30 says that it is a mitzva to teach a kid profession or business so that he will not become a bandit. Would this not betray a lack of emunah?! this actually may bring some light to the thread of proselytizing …
I once was approached by a guy like that in the course of doing business. I quoted him that what do you do when you see people on the road marching to Yerushalaim in the middle of plowing season… They say they are going to greet Moschiach.. So – you finish plowing and then go (in that order). The guy accepted that and got back to work. So, maybe they see a group of people who spend their merits in hope of Hashem solving them from sakanot and parnasa, so they think they can lure some..
> He walks to and from Yeshiva even late at night. I insist that he carry pepper spray with him
I don;t know what is happening in your neighborhood, but there are lots of gemorot not recommending walking by yourself at night for a number of reasons… can several of them go together? can a father go for a walk. meet the son onthe way, and walk back together sharing whst they learned during the day? good for everyone’s health, learning, and family values. Also, put location sharing on the phone google maps, so that the family know where the kid is.
Syag, I still do not fully understand your objections to my analysis. I agree that measuring at one particular moment is noisy. Epidemics indeed come in waves and time of waves is different at different locations. That is why I looked at cumulative rates over a year and specifically compared with nearby areas. The numbers were higher and there were similar reports from Israel, that I didn’t verify, so I don’t understand how you are saying that nothing bad happen. You bring not one number to support your position. Again, the numbers I brought have limitations, but they are quite suggestive.
Maybe you mean that you didn’t see people getting sick right after an event. This doesn’t refute statistics because the virus propagates thru the community with little symptoms until someone gets seriously sick and then you don’t see a connection. This is known in halakha that teshuva is hard when a person can’t connect two events, so I am not holding my breath to see people changing their minds.
I am not sure why you pepper your text with disparaging remarks though. I am very sad about all the losses we had and disturbed by the attitude of ostensibly observant Jews who do not care about lives. I am not excited about talking about it, not I am happy to see the data later that confirms initial warnings. Again, if you know of data that refutes it, please provide it. If you don’t have it yourself, maybe you can ask your experts. I am sure someone somewhere in your community used some logic to allow what you did. You should be interested in that
common, this is I mentioned limitation. Of course, a response to a Hashem command “how about the rest” is not really appropriate.
Syag,
an interesting question about big public gatherings. There was a research paper about this looking at statistics in multiple cities. These gatherings actually decreased infection rate – because most people in the city reduced their activity and did not go to stores and restaurants in downtown while a minority of citizens raged there. This was not just a hypotheses, activity levels in cities are systematically measured using cell phone and similar data, and correlated well with decrease in covid levels.I am not sure why you are saying:
>> checking the death rate anywhere does not find you that answer and you know it. You just don’t like it.I agree that you might want to do a little more analysis, taking maybe several locations. You seem to reject this approach entirely, without any explanation, implying that I somehow know what you mean. I do not.
>> “The Torah does not command up to be politically active.”
shoftim veshtrim titen leha?
tzedek, tzedek tirdof?the limitation on social activity is to stay within the Torah. If Hashem would not give us Torah, we would not live space for other nations, as we have strength/hutzpa (azut) like dogs among animals and roosters among birds (Beitza about 25)
n0 >> Halachah has to rise above whatever we want the outcome to be.
I don’t understand Rav Solovietchik that he does not trust the process, or does not want to participate, or hopes to convince anyone. I read it that he is making a pragmatic decision not to become a target if the issue is not practical. If the question would be of actual value to some Jewish kids, he would not be afraid of talking a position. [important contrast to some educators that told me that they would not do a right thing for our kids because of concern for the school or “others would ask for the same thing”].
interesting .. Halachapedia refers to Shulchan Aruch 251:1, Mishna Brurah 251:5, discussing not starting new jobs after mincha.
The wuestion is – are you viewing sharpening pencils as the first task in your yom rishon job, or do you just feel that a good engineer needs to keep his pencil sharpened? If you have an extra hour after you sharpen your pencil, would you be tempted to start the drawing? If yes, then it falls under “new job” category
It is hard for me to relate, as I don’t think I sharpened my pencils this century .. But now am I right, when I train machine learning models, I prepare several versions and have it run over shabbat. Am I right doing thaty before shabbat and also making my computer chum in the corner (or in the cloud)?
Got, so just hire redleg for a second opinion next time you are told to do your construction legally.
as redleg says, people are not very good at estimating low probability events – falling of the 6ft platform, catching COVID from short encounters, crossing street in dangerous places.
to see the value v. cost of such procedures, you can sometimes conduct a social experiment. Compare two localities with different rules or different attitudes towards rules and look at the accident statistics.
for example, look at statistics before and after a new OSHA rule is in place. Or nearby cities in different counties or states with different rules. Upon someone’s claim here that Jewish communities are doing fine under COVID without a need to bother, I looked up death rates in Lakewood and surrounding communities and saw a factor of 2x difference (or 4x if you adjust for Lakewood younger population).
>> Look at what happened in the U.S. under the last President.
“why bad things happen to good people” ? there is actually one case where naive looks are not good for democracies.. pollsters say that last 6-12 months before election determine people’s attitude.
BUT, when we are dealing with adversaries, they can easily exploit that! So, if a US president stands up to Nazis, Soviets, or Chinese, it may lead to increase of hostilities, oil crises, wars, Korean airlines going down, maybe even pandemics. Don’t let them manipulate your opinion (easier said than done).
I think these missionaries put an extra value on a Jew v. a heathen. It seems like a transformation of the medieval view that Jews in ghettos is the proof that they are right. Now, they feel that they need our approval. This would explain why they are specifically interested in observant Jews.
> please quote your source for the one-year rule’
So far, I am not able to recall or find where the one year idea comes from. I think Gemora says something like “next year” .. or my memory is mis-firing.
For the general idea of going back on regulations that are not acceoted: Avodah Zorah 36 discusses a possibility of cancelling the law that majority of people did not accept. An example of an empirical approach – they investigated and found it that the law was not accepted. And then cancelled it. In our times, they might have just denounced all non-acceptors as Modernistas …
Avi, interesting idea, but I understand the issue that we want Torah understanding of the issue if possible. If not, then use democracy as a second best option.
Then, in our time, we don’t have a situation when an Adam Hashuv is not available – they are all a call or an email away. I don’t think it matters whether a talmid chacham is an economic expert himself or he asks an expert, as long as he has intellectual capability to deal with the issue. Every expert consults others, books, etc. The point is that the final decision is based on Torah framework and not on the economists.
Here are a couple of examples where outcome may differ:
paying teachers. Current policies in US favor heavy regulation of schools, tenure and union protection for teachers. Halacha seems to favor unlimited competition, exempting teachers (as well as peddlers of perfume) from standard medieval guild protection – to make education more affordable for poor people. In other professions, we balance interests of buyers and sellers, but in education, interests of buyers are much higher. That’s the Jewish value and economists may or may not agree.another one – COVID rule relaxing. Politicians care about economy and about reelection. A Torah authority might be more careful.
We can also have different solution depending on different behaviors. Famous one that Roman inspector did not like – Jews pay half of damage by an animal, while non-Jews – full, because we presume that Jew was watching the animal and damage was unintentional.
Thus, for example, during COVID in a community where kids can learn at home with parents, they can be told to stay home. In a community, where kids will be roaming streets and facebook, kids might need to come to school despite the risk.
And kids in 2025 will be named Donald II?
>> Yiddish is Yidden’s common tongue.
How non-inclusive of you! R Yaakov Kamenetsky while visiting r Auerbach’s yeshiva suggested that Maschiach will come out of it, because the yeshiva had top shiurim in Hebrew rather than Yiddish, enabling Sephardim to join.
So, it is about context. In some circumstances, Yiddish helps preserve Jews, in others – divides.
Avi > so we should not do anything but learn Torah? Bury our heads in the sand and live by shnorring?
I think you are confounding several issues here:
1) studying professions to get a job. This might be a problem when it involves emerging in a secular culture. Seems to be less of a problem now, with Jewish colleges, night colleges, online education, CLEPS. There is a mitzva to teach a kid Torah and to teach him a job or a business so that he does not join listim. So, this seems to apply universally to everyone who is not independently wealthy.
2) studying science per se. I don’t think this ever was a problem. Tannaim were doing it, Rambam was doing it. Does not mean that everyone should be doing it, though.
Avi K, thanks for the correction Bava Batra 9a, Adam Hashuv indeed. Shita Mekubetzet says Adam Hashuv = Talmkid Chacham + community parnas. So, he seems not interested in the opinions of unlearned merchants and members of kollel, only those who are both learn and are in business. [O, horror ]. Rambam says “Haham Hasuv”, H’M 231:28 uses a similar term “haham hashuv mamono al ha tzibur” …
R Moshe is mentioning these halakhot in the context of allowing modern labor unions. Not clear to me whether members of the union are same as independent artisans. Maybe in “skilled labor”.
I see R Auerbach quoted as referring similarly that as in our days talmidei chachamim do not involve themselves in business affairs, then “it is as if there is no adam hashuv”. This is unclear, as according to definitions above adam hashuv is not just talmid chacham but also parnas, so it is literally there are no adam hashuvim, not “as if”.
This leads to a question – is it a good/bad/pareve thing that we do not have an “adam hashuv” people? Gemorah seems to imply that it is better to have them. so, should people in yeshiva go into business, or should business people learn more to make more hoshuve people?
> My shul does it before mussaf
Does it make it better for the tanna kama?! How is skipping shaharis better than skipping musaf?
and it is not better for the connoisseurs – who wants a cold cholent?! And people may daven even faster knowing that the cholent is getting cold.
Avram >> His interpretation of the quote from Rabbi JB Soloveitchik
I failed to add a context: his was asked regarding what girls should learn at school. He asked back whether this is a practical question and the school will follow up. He was not willing to pasken if this is not leading to a practical resolution. This is similar to your own experience.
>> he views the entire halachic process of arriving at a psak as tainted by politics, and thus unreliable.
I am saying that we should strive for the opposite.>> many of those types of shailos are very personal, and the psak very much depends on the circumstances of the one asking
exactly. I am learning a sefer now on interpersonal behaviors and after multiple footnotes with sources, it often ends with – depends on who is saying, about whom, and to whom [for example, will the person interpret information to the worse, will he get offended, etc]. The fact that mitzvot bein adam l’havero depend on the person means it calls for psak and for more learning.
I do not propose people revealing personal information here, but surely there is a lot can be learned from specific cases, carefully described. We will probably learn better if we focus that halakha, or just an advice, will be different for different people. Whether father should let his son to listen to Ben Shapiro will surely depend on the Av, on the Ben, and on the Ben Shapiro.
An old example is of Rav Salanter visiting Konigsberg merchants. He refused to speak first. Later, he spoke and suggested that he understands that ship are arriving on Shabbos, but couuld they at least not write it down? Later – could they unload but at least not load new merchandise, etc. Why did he refuse to speak the first time around? Because there was an observant Litvishe yid in shul, and Rav did not want this guy to hear these ideas.
>> Ballest Teshuva, I laughed and said no,
As Gerer Rebbe said on an occasion “and why not?”
(when a Husid inartfully said – I daven in this shul with baaley teshuva, but I am not one of them).
Having safety officer is a good idea. In addition, we need to listen what the government says even if our experts disagree. If you suspect that you are treated unfairly, you can compare your circumstance with other groups. If you feel aggrieved by the government, Baruch Hashem, you can vote, you can sue, you can move.
Reagan did not name an airport after himself, but Biden has a huge welcome center on I-95. Everyone who is smart enough to build something in his n ame without spending his own money, is surely special. Even Cuomo re-named the bridge for his father, not himself.
The irony of building a welcome center for fossil-driving public …
some people look at Prasha, but lately the daf became in vogue. From today:
Bar Kapora (works well if you are Kapora), Meir, Avin, Aha, Yaakov, Rav (may sounds presumptuous though), Huna, Abaye, Rava (as a girsa only, so be careful), Hisda.
There is also Kushia, but this is questionable.his last words were:
How now?
Even so quickly may one catch the plague?or maybe these:
You herd of—Boils and plagues
Plaster you o’er, that you may be abhorred
Farther than seen, and one infect another
Against the wind a mile!or maybe these – and this is really abhorrent in this group:
a plague of these pickle-herringIsrael should use Al Capone approach – tax him on all the refrigerators that he brought in for his “aliya”.
>> who was educated with the poison of “Modern Orthodoxy”
well, seems like you are listening to some inappropriate shows also, not sure why such flippant insulting of a broad swath of observant Jews is OK. Please clarify who allows that.
> Because the AP loses one site
well, they did lose one site due to Israeli Air Force boycott …
R Feinstein was 19 when Great War started and lived under Russian civil war and Soviets, hardly a normal “Europe”. So, you need to look further at the background of the responsa. Maybe, for example, the wife became pro-communist and influenced by those ideas, rather than a mother of 10 who decided to take time off.
Seriously speaking, there would be tircha d’tziburah if you don’t set it up on time. Depending on the community, it may decrease shul attendance, and make people come home later, make other family members wait longer. Have less time to sleep or learn on shabbat. So, maybe it is a good thing to do.
It also seems that the shul is reasonably fast davening, rather than saying piyutim and making announcements. I would NOT want to be in a shul where announcements take so long that it is possible to serve a big kiddush!
seemingly reputable sources now discuss another matter: Facebook donated money to multiple counties for various ways to encourage voting – vehicles, vote verification, etc. the end result is possible incerase in D votes. Not verified.
Bava Basra discusses a case of butchers who agreed on a cartel – each works on certain days – amd slashed skins of the one who refused. Conclusion is, I believe, that if there is a Talmid Chacham, you should go and ask him to establish just rules al’pi Torah. If there is not such a chacham, a group is entitled to create their own rules and enforce them.
Given, that there were not many yeshivot at the time, sounds like people naturally agreeing to certain rules is a right thing to do.
There is also halakhic idea of testing laws with reality: midrabanans have a year to be accepted by people, and might be rescinded if not; Same Bava Basra describing history of Jewish education during 2nd Temple: fathers (not every father could teach), then Kohanim in Yerushalaim (not every father could drive), then regional schools for teenagers (too late, they would not listen, younger ones would not go that far by themsleves), and finally local competing, underpaid teachers for young kids. So, we search until we find what works. So, enjoy US system while it works…
>> The capability was clear decades ago
that there are viruses around. But not that you can lock the whole world with it. C19 achieved remarkable success in airborne propagation, pre-symptomatic infection, attacking multiple systems and, according to some research, ways to fool immune system (this explain pre-symptomatic – C19 starts multiplying while preventing immune system from working).
>> simply look at the prewar size of our own families.
how many survived into adulthood?
in certain time windows and places: killed by Russians or Germans? intermarried?another issue: a right question on the mother MIA from home when she needs to work. But we also now have children MIA from home at schools. how is it beneficial for mother to be at home when (most of) the kids are off? that she can clean the house and cook dinner? kids should be able to do this themselves
Syag, I appreciate your sincerity, but I noticed that you always try to find the worst interpretation of my words for some reason. I am not being flippant – I just presume that people take the idea instead of trying to find what to blame me for. That is why I may look like a blank face – as you are answering to something I did not mean. Say, I am saying that kollel is not work (in the discussion about people paying for their own expenses) and you accuse me of not respecting that people in kollel do not work hard. what should I say – “my best friends are in kollel”? You can also accuse R Elazar and R Ishmael b’ Rav Nachman that teach a need for derech eretz before learning Torah.
If you disagree – feel free to bring some arguments, sources, data. That is what discussions are for.
ctlawyer: The FIRST AMENDMENT ONLY applies to Government action.
of course. somehow, citizen refused to use public HTML protocols and prefer to get their news while watching ads on facebook. We are paying for this aveirah… thus we volunteered to give private businesses control over information.
But private businesses are also regulated – we need government or society to create markets: a place where competition exists, information is available (market does not work if the buyer does not trust seller), payments are secure, etc. Traditional media are regulated. So, it is within government rights to define rules for businesses selling information to ensure that information market is efficient.
Avram > people who care about doing the right thing by Hashem and who come across a situation where they don’t know what the right thing is – and so they ask a shaila.
Of course, but people choose what to ask based on what they think is important. There is a lot of stuff declared in this group that seem to deserve a shaila – taking a lot of free food, taking welfare, not learning profession, not wearing masks, going to mass events. In many many cases, it is not clear whether the person asked a shaila, and sometimes I inquire what was the answer and almost never get a straight answer.
Maybe sometimes, if you dont feel it dserves a question, you can still ask a shaila to convince someone else (say, me). As a friend of mine dragged his son (and me) to a posek in Mattesdorf with a loaded “question”: when his son is playing soccer and the father is going to mincha – should he continue playing or go with his father? it was supposed to be a great less in kibuf av – until the Rav suggested to the kid to break from the game for several minutes and daven mincha right there.
>> That doesn’t mean I think it’s a bio-weapon that got loose
At this point, it is of historical interest how Chinese started this. The question is now that the capability is clear, how it will be used in the future.
n0, two comments:
1) what I mentioned _is_ Torah. Both in terms of learning how to think and in specific sugyot. Why wouldn’t you teach bein adam l’havero to your kids? You need to look wider sometimes. For example, I am connecting Radak on Elisha and the bears with trade unions.2) to be clear, I don’t think there is one universal answer here, as I alluded before. Some people live in insulated communities. Even then, we may not appreciate how connected kids are now electronically. As with the virus, if you send a kid to a group setting for others to teach them, if they have no phone, friends or friends of friends have. But not everyone has such background. I am coming from families that had engineers and doctors for a number of generations. CTLawyer probably comes from lawyers on Mayflower. Rav Salanter’s son was a ship engineer, if I remember correctly. Rabban Gamliel had 1000 yungele learning Torah and 1000 – Greek. We are not all the same, and it is OK.
Nechomah > . Do the boys understand the laws of the road? Are they wearing a helmet? What are the rules and do they follow them?
Things are not much better in big cities in US, in general. Bikers in general disregard the rules, but rarely win when confronted with a big block of metal. Progressive governments protect them by chopping off a half of the road for bike lanes, which steals times from drivers and is lifnei ever anyway – entices more people to use bikes everywhere, not just where it is safe.
Some here might say that Hashem protects innocents, and that surely going for a mitzva is better than a helmet. The opposite opinion would be that if someone volunteers to endanger himself, why would Hashem bother answering his prayers. At best, He can send a thief to steal the scooter.
Participant, thinking in Europe is that it is the role of the government to censor, not private businesses. So this is more of a European approach. I do not deny irony here.
Maybe a business perspective is better: first amendment works when we have a “marketplace” of ideas. We seem to have a monopolistic structure right now, with several large companies dividing a market to minimize competition. Starting new media is a good approach. But it is pretty hard to break monopolies. so, then government regulation is in order.