Always_Ask_Questions

Current Israeli numbers for over-50s: -80% of haredim and Arabs either recovered or vaccinated (at least once, I think), and 98% of the rest of the country. Almost all people currently in hospital are those who were not vaccinated (include younger ones)
So, this may be a forecast for similar numbers in some pockets of Israeli community – a minority of 20% has to be convinced

The next line in Shabbat 12a talks about shaking clothes looking for lice at night on Shabbat. I am not a lice expert, but it seems if you just put on fresh clothes before shabbat, you would not need to take them off immediately.

In our days, many people wear what we would consider shabbos clothes the whole week. So, they have another problem – when they touch wine of havdala on their clothes, the bracha never gets to their work clothes.

maedaliyah> That either we never wear masks or we always do?

I agree. I would start with – whenever governor of your state mandates it, and when other people expect you to do it, such as in the stores, offices. It is also not an only choice. “wearing mask” became a short-hand for this madness. There are lots of other decisions you can make. for example, not too fly for a vacation on Spirit this year, limit other optional things and find appropriate, or even better, substitutes, such as learning Torah, gaining a profession, spending more time with yor spouse and kids. I would presume that, for example, Vilna Gaon, would not need to wear mask much, as he rarely ventured out of his house.

>> @akuperma are you trolling?

He is, unfortunately, right in certain circumstances. In some corners of Jewish society, more than 50% of people are intermarried. Thus, having a non-Jewish last name increases a chance that the mother is Jewish (unless you are talking about several generations of intermarriage).

I presume this joke was posted here 4 years ago: what is the difference between Donald Trump and a Reform Jew? His grandchildren are Jewish.

At the time of Mishna, some people would have one set of clothes, including talit

Er>>The last thing we want is an efficient system of government like the right wing governments Germany and Italy had

Exactly. Italians seem to realize their mistake and they change their governments pretty often. Israelis are trying that too… Could you imagine if either of extreme Israeli parties were in the firm control of the government for 4 years?!

In American system, gridlock is, of course, part of the design. Only items that substantial groups agree to will pass. The danger is the Polish Seim experiment – each member had a veto power and eventually nothing passed, until the country declined and was partitioned by neighbors. Now, suddenly nobody had a vote …

Also, part of the frustration and fight for Presidency is atrophy of local and Congressional democracy. Why do we need feds to decide minimal wage and order of vaccination? Why do we need Presidents issuing EOs when Congress could make a law.

DY: These rabbonim are paskening that there is no chiyuv to wear a mask

did you hear this first hand? did you ask to clarify – where and under what conditions?

could you please ask the Rav you asked whether it is MUTAR to properly wear a mask under different conditions, such as in the airplane when required, in federal buildings, where it is required, in the offices, where you can be fired, in the stores, in the street, where people see that you are Jewish?

If not, this would mean that this ISSUR to wear a mask is comparable to ISSUR of avoda zara.
Maybe he meant only the masks that have avoda zora painted on them?

Dr Seuss and other gedolim of English anbd History are being taken out for a reason:
to make space for new programming. Public school programs add new diversified program into schools.

As Dr. Seuss is for younger kids, that means that even elementary school is under attack. Expect new generation of AOC-like people growing up.

ISIS used a similar strategy in Syria and Iraq: several years they were allowed to run a quasi-country, they were taking young kids into their schools, teaching them a terrorist curriculum, and in 2-3 years they matured into well-trained young terrorists.

New Englanders, like John Adams, felt that State should care about religion and religious education, requiring towns in MA to pay salaries to preachers. He, and others, felt that society needs morality. So, it was not about having trees or menorahs at town halls, but about having middos.

The controversy was whether they should all be from the most popular sect, or could local hasidim redirect payments to their own shtibles. Interesting, this is about the times of Vilna Gaon and Chasidism controversy. Adams was definitely a Litvak….

I think we all agree that we benefit from US gov not running a church, but does it mean that we support excluding G-d from public sphere? “Sorry, G-d, we find it easier to do Your Will if we keep it quiet somewhat”? This seems like throwing the baby with the water.

common,
maybe I misunderstood you. You said – you were fully complaint (using your common saychel) and nobody bothered you. So, that seems liker a proof that they would not bother complaint people. Others were not and they were told so. I don’t see why you would not support this. “Partially complaint” is a subset of “non-complaint”. What makes you feel that rules are suggestions, and people expect to comply after a couple of reminders? Note that you are making an occasional trip, the airline personnel is in the air a lot at the mercy of non-compliant passengers. Their risk is pretty high. You should be telling other passengers to comply in order to protect the people who enable you flying.

A statistical aside for your decision-making: having a non-compliant person is a higher risk than simply a difference between him having a mask on or off. Presumably, the person is non-compliant in other places also, so he is a much higher risk. He might have just came from a 1000-people wedding in corona-central. So, if you have a minyan and a guy like that shows up, lowering his nose under the mask does not lower the risk. Maybe chachamim used a similar approach defining Haverim in regards to Tumah? Haver is someone who is careful at all times not only when you interact with him, and thus you can rely on him.

Mr. CtLawyer. Not calling you to fly Spirit. You could still say thanks for the rest of the Jewish people. Also, without Spirit, you would not get a chance to brag about your fancy travels! I proudly flew Frontier for $40 on business, saving the client’s money, not that they cared or noticed. The alternative was to stay till the morning, bill for a nice hotel. I decided it would be a good musar for myself to do what I would have done if I were paying on my own. I was the only one in a suit on that red eye, everyone else weared T-shirts.

One of the reasons was probably because I had an un-fortune to attend a learned class about business halakha. The speaker discuss a lot of proper humrot in dealing with the opposite sex and drinks in non-kosher places, and then some kulot in dinei mamonot, such as – can you bill 2 clients for the same trip when you visiting them both, or can you bill your company for fedexed kosher food, if it was delayed and hotel reimbursed you. He did not allow much after some pilpul. After than a local Rosh Kollel interrupting with “sheker sheker tirchok”, the talk was successful. So, maybe I took Frontier to get those possibility off your mind. Highly recommend to everyone who had non-kosher business thoughts.

Syag, you are describing your feelings of frustration very vividly, but you are not saying what do you disagree with. In person, I would be able to follow your raised eyebrows and know exactly what you mean. It is not working online. Maybe you can either express your thoughts, or make a video while reading my post and attach to your post.

The reason I am interpreting your text is to find the hidden meaning. There are people dying and you are saying – no, not in our community, so, it does not matter. I am just trying to respectably square your words with reality. It would much simpler for me to ignore, believe me. so, please do not blame me for trying to understand your point of view.

for a coffee addict, the cup is always more than half full!
The disease is highly contagious, so 10% of all senior citizens is a lot of people … How many people are in Moetses and how many niftarim? this is the rate you should be worrying about.

This is what Romans called “decimation” and it used to keep armies in compliance. The similarity to this barbarity is striking – under decimation, those who got the short stick were clubbed by the lucky ones.

Common, I am not flying. I am enjoying video conferencing and I drive within 8 hours from me. A lot to see…

As you just said: you are complaint and nobody bothered you. You should be thankful that they keep others compliant and keep you safe. There is no reason people in an airplane can’t put on a K95 that does not slip.

Not all idiots are Jewish, I hope you did not imply that. We talk hear about Jews as we expect us to have better midos and common saychel.

common: you are pretty vague accusing airlines of being rude “on a power trip” “roaming the isles looking for reasons to complain”. Are you saying – they want you to wear the mask and you are not complying? Maybe they just want to come home safely?

Syag,
I am not against asking shailos. I was pointing areas where I think it is important to ask them.

Next you complain that I talk about what works for me. If I posted something that you think could not work, I am simply inviting you and others to think how to apply my experience to better yours.

Re: minyanim. First, evidence that religious communities have large numbers is large. See Israeli numbers. Do people get sick in a minyan or a kiddush after that, or a yeshiva or a store nearby, is hard to say. There is a lot of general evidence that larger unprotected gatherings are more dangerous. Would you claim that covid does churches and not shuls?

The way you describe your community points that minyanim did propagate covid (you mention that it went thru multiple people in same shuls). you also mention that maskless got it earlier – this means that maskless had higher probability. It also points out that your masked minyanim were also not safe. It is, again, your fault. I posted recommendations here months ago how to make it safer. You should have advised those minyanim on safety measures. If you did, and they did not listen, then it is not your fault. My experience is 2 out of 3 who followed some of my recommendations. Even 3rd adopted some minimal ones.

If you were not sure, whether it was your business to go and tell them – you should have asked a shailah. You still can. Let us know what your posek says – are we arevim zeb’ze or not in this case?

>> rav’s opinion, which was that distanced outdoor minyanim are so unreasonable

I’ll put aside considerations of hillul Hashem and following the laws, as we are focused here on things that can be proved by objective research. for this purposes, I am applying this psak to those cases where objective research can be applied.

>> What are your “hard numbers” on the effectiveness of masks?

Look at Jeremy Howard, et al An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19 published in PNAS Jan 2021. A review of various studies.

The issue includes more than masks – SD, air flow, HVAC. It is clear that all of these significantly reduce risk. My sources include multiple articles on airflow simulation, discussions with a distinguished aerospace engineer, and my own experiments measuring airflows in several rooms, including a shul under controlled conditions (with/without people; with windows/doors opened, far/near vents).

Important statistical question – how correlated is mask rejection and vaccine rejection? are these independent issues in people’s minds or do we have same people denying everything?

why is it important? say, 20% of people refuse each of them. If these are the same people, then you can expect pandemic to continue raging at 5x lower level. If these issues are independent, then only 4% of population (0.2*0.2) will be fully unprotected and we can expect significant reductions at the end…

Argument for independence – people are bring unrelated reasons for each of the rejections. Argument for correlation – the reasons are excuses, and the rejection in both cases is based on distrust of science and authorities, independent character, ignorance, lack of empathy.
Can we take a vote on 2 issues at the same time:

reluctance to wear masks and to take a vaccine from 0 to 10?
mine: 0 and 2

Charlie: There was a big decline in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths in NYC after the BLM rallies.
Syag: Had no more serious a spread than other minyanim.

you_all guys need to start asking shaylos from your local Rabbis/PhD….

Charlee – Indeed. There is a paper analyzing this. Mobility data explained what happened: rallies scared most other people from going to downtown and going out in general.

A similar effect might happened in Syag’s shul: vulnerable people were coming less to maskless minyanim, and more to masked ones. Also, if you are saying multiple (more than 4) people getting it at the same time, it means “masked” minyanim were not really taking full measures correctly, such as closed windows; ventilation that does not have filters and goes into their faces; prolonged davening; flimsy non-medical masks bouncing on the nose; exempting chazan; reading Torah close together, etc. We discussed this here at length early on, too bad you didn’t digest this info to them.

> nearly half of cancer treatments never underwent the golden standard double blind trials.

I googled for this phrase, and seems that missing part is “emergency authorizations” or something like that. I agree, in general, that in emergency we should be relying more on observational studies, especially when safety risks are small. Performing small blinded studies could compliment this.

The issue is also confounded with a need to consider multiple settings – who to give, when to give, etc, as discussed above. Note that A-Z Phase 3 was almost derailed by a simple fact that there were two different doses. Uncertainty of interpreting multiple arms is harder. You can’t just say “HCQ+zin given at day X” worked, when you went through 100 different combinations – as your success is a random result out of 100.

Note that this is still science, just harder science than blinded tests. One type of such math is called “multi armed bandits” (as in Vegas): you run multiple arms and estimate two things – possible effect and remaining level of uncertainty. Sometimes you want to explore more of arms that have more uncertainty even if they did not show sufficient result yet.

DY, not just koron, but CORON OHR … don’t need no Torah codes, the peshat is here
nisht: do not make up your own reasons.

these are not my reasons, I think most commentaries say it is to not embarrass others or not to make them used to it (Chizkuni), or make it posibble for people to come for judgment.

Moshe was wearing it all the time, except when teaching (Ohr HaChaim, Behor Shor) or only when communicating with Hashem, (Kli Yakar, Tur HaAroch) or both (Rashi, Rashbam, R Bahya). This seems like an argument for those who want to teach without masks, as student needs to see teacher’s face (Seforno, Chizkuni, Eruvin 13: R Yehuda being zoche “seeing back of R Meir”).

Moshe retained the rays for his whole life (R Bahya), so he was wearing mask on and off for 40 years. So, don’t claim it is not possible.

Seems a machloket between Onkelos saying that he used more than N95, a full mask, and Yerushalmi meikel on just a one-layer cloth mask.

Syag >> to say you are complimented and throw in a joke and a smile, and then make sure to leave a pinch in your exit.

I am not trying to pinch anyone, h’vsh. I am just saying that it is a possibility to consider: if you see something not fitting, maybe your measure is off. Need to analyze.

As you confirmed that this is directed towards me but did not specify the issue, I’ll try to guess: my previous comment was about who is a posek. Are you of the opinion that current poskim are ordained via urim v’tumim? I am mentioning the process of how one Rav gets recognized by others, and that there are also specialists in specific areas. All of that expanding on a remark from a Rav, who has many decades in official roles in a pretty mainstream community.

DY, we seem to have a different recollection about specific case – whether it was illegal at the time. The lesson I learned is that if someone behaves irresponsibly or illegally, he should not be relied to for his judgment.

Please note that this is not just about different opinions. I am fine if you stand for kiddush, and I sit. The question is about several opinions, each of them having downsides. I don’t think even exacting Daas Torah takes you off the hook. Say, you go to the Rav and say – my son does not know how to swim, and he needs to take a dangerous boat to learn Torah. So, Rav says he has to stay home and be an ignoramus. It is still your fault that you did not teach him how to swim (Kiddushin 30).

Same here. If your posek determined that your community can learn and daven without SD and masks (reasoning that otherwise you’ll not learn at all), it is still your fault.

And the reason I talk about people walking in the streets w/out masks, because it is a shocking indicator how careless these people are even when a required effort is minimal.

DY, Mrs. Syag,
let’s go step-by-step so I can understand your logic.

There are numerous cases and groups of people who disregard DS and masks in their shuls and schools, and who disregard state mask orders. I am excluding gray areas here. Many people, including myself, see them, and they are all over photos, and the photos are not all done by evil chilonim. Do you agree with that?

The fact that these people contributed to extra deaths seems to be straight-forwards from statistics. Do you agree?

You can argue that some communities live in small urban dwellings, etc. This is a reason not to accuse people wholesale based on statistics, but this is not a reason not to be careful, just the opposite.

Is there an over-reaction on the other side? I don’t see it, but will be happy to discuss. I personally just go around un-masked people. I have to admit that I was ready to use a chair or a foot to clear space when unmasked Hamans showed up at the end of Purim davening with their gifts – but just the look worked.

DY, to clarify: the question was during a lockdown in that state, when the activity is question was against the rules. It was an oral ruling, not in writing. Similarly, at the same early time, R Heinemann responded to a question whether one can do minyanim with people standing on different porches, etc to stay within the rules. His response – a passerby will not delve into minute details, he will just know that Jews are doing something questionable – and then, some Jew may be denied a ventilator because of that. Using this criterion, our current minyan is OK: a passerby snapped a picture of us during a snow day and – when I looked – showed a thumbs up.