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RW: -Cases have been going down even before the vaccine, so what exactly are you trying to prove here?
Indeed, cases are going up and down around the world. Now, say, India and Eastern Europe are going up. The peaks seem to be a couple of month long – cases going up, people getting scared again, becoming more careful, cases going down, people relaxing early. I took not a sample, but TOP countries with high vaccination rates, they are in somewhat different areas, cases are going down in all. So, as you are saying, it may be a coincidence, but already probable. With 1-2 months further we will see more. In addition, both Israel and UK report that most of current patients are not vaccinated, that rates per vaccinated person are drastically lower.
This dies not mean that some individuals did not have adverse results from the vaccine, just that overall effects are very very positive. So, statistically, the only reason to delay vaccination is if you are not interacting with anyone. Vilna Gaon would probably need vaccine only when Dubno Maggid was visiting, the rest of the time he could sit by himself and learn.
@common & Milton Friedman – There is no stira between Friedman and me. We are both saying that business creates value in the process of doing business.
Note that Milton Friedman is often somewhat dogmatic and simplistic in his heroic defense of the free enterprise from the socialist plague. One striking example, he praises Hong Kong v. Israel, saying similar sized countries and see how better Hong Kong done w/ pure capitalism … With more time passed, we see that Hong Kong was gobbled by PRC and Israel produced some free enterprise …
So, I would update Friedman with a permission to appreciate mitzvos achieved by business, not just rely on a theorem that business is good, thus I can just pursue whateer I want. When you select a direction for your business, you can select something that benefits Jews/humanity – food, books, medicine, defense, building/creation of new things, rather than buying/selling stocks that would also indirectly be useful, of course.
Also, if you are blessed not to have shareholders, then you are even more free to choose direction for your business.
Yerishalmi Shekalim ~ 13 similarly describes companies who would business with Beis Hamikdash without much profit – either to benefit from name recognition of their pasrtner or to combine business with tzedokah
>> they have no proof that vaccinated CANNOT spread it to others,
let’s look at top vaccinated countries to understand effect on overall propagation:
4 top countries using western vaccines have all decreasing cases, top countries using Sino- and Sputnik are going up (but their whole neighboroods are going up!) . It is still hard to separate temporary trends from long-term ones, but looks promising for Western vaccinesIsrael had 8000 cases daily in January and 400 now
Gibraltar – 130 to 0
UK – 60K to 4k
US 280K to 70KCountries that are using Chinese & Russian vaccines:
UAE – 4k (March) to 2K, Chile – increasing, Serbia – increasing,? Hungary – increasingNechomah – as you mentioned “in and out”. This is the time where governments need to make quick and simple rules that can be easily followed. We have similar ideas in halakha like “lo plug” – do not create rules that can be confusing. Are the current Israeli rules reasonable in general? they appear to be: there are lots of problems with people travelling inappropriately and it is in Israel’s interest to limit that. So, if your son chose to travel to another country during pandemic, he is taking the risk of being inconvenienced somewhere.
Citizenship is a well recognized concept that creates mutual obligations between state and a citizen. So, state is willing to go an extra mile for a citizen. It is great that there are organizations trying to help in such hard cases, but it is “chesed” you are asking for, there is no reason to complain about generally reasonable rules Israeli government is using to save lives. Try to think how you can help the situation rather than create more confusion.
PS I read a story about some American who went to see his sick mother in Australia, travelling through multiple PSR checks on the way. When he finally landed, he is waiting for hours for a bus that will take him to an isolated hotel. He text his Oz brother how annoyed he is. Brother replies – if you do this in your country, you would have done better ..
>> Nowadays girls buy new dresses every second day, should they say Shechiyonu whenever they buy a new drees?
the answer might be – don’t buy so many new dresses so that you can still say Shechiyonu
“I am told” that “kosher” stores start immediate after-Pesach discounts so that you could shop even during sefirah based on a permission not to miss the discount. Is this working out halakhically when two sides play the game knowing how to avoid the rules? Does somewhat pasken that stores can do it to maintain parnasa? Genuinely interested in the answer, even if biased on the side of spending less….
While even a not-fully-vetted vaccine is generally less risky than not-at-all-vetted COVID, it may be fair to prefer one vaccine over the other depending on your risk perception. Here is my non-professional thinking, maybe others know better:
– if you afraid of new mRNA technology, you can get a more traditional J&J one dose. It is possible that they’ll recommend boosters later on. There is a now trial for a 2-dose.
– Moderna has a higher does than Pfizer. So, if you are afraid of side-effects, have immune problems or allergies, Pfizer may be more preferable.
– Pfizer is also now most tested in real-life and applying for full authorization, so side effects and what to do with them can be researched now
– you may want to spend 30 minutes near the site with a friend instead of 15.common, you got so stuck on me not asking the Rav. I even gave you examples but that did not help you. Call AAA. Interestingly, in a number of cases, I get an explicit opinion rather than psak. Is it experience of others also.
For a fun shaila: a friend of mine dragged his pre-bar-mitzva son to a posek in Mattesdorf to resolve the problem of son not joining the father going to shul for mincha and continuing playing soccer with friends. The posek asked the kid – how long does it take to say mincha? do you think you could get off the field, say mincha and continue playing? The look on father’s face was precious. He eventually moved to a place where everyone goes to mincha and does not play soccer.
>> don’t leave your house just yet – some of us are still alive.
that’s what letzanim hador were telling Noah
RW: how many FDA Approved drugs have been on the market for years and years only to be taken off the market due to dangerous and adverse effects
I asked this shaila from Rav Google and he said something like 35 out of 1500 approved (up to 2014).
I did not read carefully though, you may want to double check.2020 Annals of Internal Medicine article ” Postmarketing safety of vaccines approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. ” says there was 1 _vaccine_ recall out of 57 approved in 20 year window. it was within a year of approval. There were also 58 warnings for 25 of the vaccines related to immunocompromised and pre-existing conditions and allergies. Given that Pfizer might get full authorization in about a month, it probably has a similar safety profile.
DY, a good point, still, I think we should have a thread “if I were a kallah’s sister”, but when I started singing uisng Fiddler nigun, kids ran away.
Anyway, “if I were a kallah’s (younger) sister” last year, I would cherish an opportunity to stay home and help mommi to take care of younger siblings, keep them away form covid and other troubles, and maybe have time to be with my soon-to-be-away older sister. This would be WAAY more productive than making Tati take extra work, leaving Mommy alone with the kids so that I can learn more Rambans away from home. Wonder which experience prepares a person to be a better eshes chaiyl.
Ps on risk of travel. Every traveler does not see the risk. At the same time, every covid splash and a variant started with a traveler .. somehow, S African variant gets to Israel, and British to US, and NY to South Dacota … Unless you believe in CCP frozen food theory
RebE, common, I am enjoying your comment, but maybe I should not have skipped the point of the story: the question about using milk made the Rav undersand that there will be no meat at the table.
My guy was not Am Haaretz, he was poor and tried to do the best with what he had without asking for tzedokah. Which is mentioned in Pesachim – Rabbi Akiva says that we give for 4 cups from the tamhui to every Jew. Why does he have to say that? Because it contradicts “make your shabbat k’hol” but do not ask for tzedokah.
>> yekkeshe obsession
As in early days of Israel 2 yakkes working in construction – please pass the brich, Herr Porfessor; here it is, Herr Porofessor.
>> frum yidden have their own hierarchy of honorific
R Kamenetsky’s son writes in the preface to his book: I am putting R in front of the names, and you feel free to read as you wish: Reb, Rav, Rebbe, Rav HaTzadik, etc
RW: they don’t trust THIS vaccine. I never said they don’t trust any vaccines in general.
I understand you are talking about Covid vaccines. This would be plural, as you have multiple already. They all have limited testing. They have different risk profiles. If you don’t like new mRNA tech, you may want to look into Russki Sputnik. I am sure it was well tested on prisoners and military personnel. Just make sure you drink same stuff they do to dilute the risky stuff.
Anyway, I am suggesting you to be specific – I do not like vaccine X because antigen Y potentially causes Z. And then compare it with also not-tested long-term effect of COVID that tends to leave traces of damage in multiple body systems (again, Chinese or Russians might have tested it, so ask them).
RebE, a gut vort. I think people who can recall arriving to free world appreciate what they got more than those who are born with it. Maybe Pesach is an opportunity to re-experience this and to try to pass to next generation. Seder often looks like an easy thing to do – we have a book, list of questions, matzah to point to … but if the ultimate goal is to fully pass to the next generation the feelings of gratitude and freedom, then we understand that this is a HUGE task, and all the tricks in the Seder and Hagada are helping us to move in this direction. We need all of them …
This is not limited to Jews who appreciate ability to ledan, but seems to be universal in the current age of migration. Most immigrant terrorists in Europe, for example, are 2nd generation. first generation appreciates the host country, but fails to pass the feeling to the next. Maybe we should invite them to the seder (now a cousin, after the 6th son)
rightwriter, you mix together some legit thoughts, like “why should we trust untested vaccine”, that can be rationally discussed with multitude of statements based on not much info. Some sounds bogus, such as “lots of old people do not trust vaccine”. Look up vaccination rates for older people and in nursing homes in Israel and Us and report back to us. Try looking up medical literature.. you don’t have to trust every word and it is ok to be suspicious, but there are lots of numbers that could help you orient yourself, such as how long antibodies are on, what are death rates in haredi communities in Israel, etc.
RebE, Rav Steinsaltz was not trying to improve readability for an experienced yeshiva student, his original audience was less-observant Israelis for whom Aramaic was the barrier, as well as way of thinking. As he mentions above, he tried different formats and did the one that worked. I frankly did not use this edition much myself, but from seeing how the Rav was able to engage people, both Jews and non-Jews, who would never open Vilna Shas, I can project how his Shas enabled people to learn.
This was an individual taking on a huge and important task – and succeeding, so “avoiding him” due to other considerations is like avoiding Rambam because he wrote in Arabic and did not refer to sources or avoiding Rashi because of the annoying script (that, of course, he did not know himself). We just translated Rambam and added references.
Note that you are not defending “Vilna” page tradition, but rather Soncino and non-Jewish Bomberg who created the look. A lot of good and bad decisions about what and how to have on a page was done by publishers, who were not always Talmidei Chachamim.
And Koren Noe edition seem to combine Steinsalitz and traditional pagination, so debate is good …
ujm, I understand that this risk is hard to quantify in each case. I can’t tell you that I would not fly if I were the sister of the Kallah myself. But we do know that we all together killed a lot of people. We know that there were a lot of activities that were not that critical. So, complaining about government that tries to save lives does not sound right for a religious person.
>> because of Israeli travel restrictions!
R Yohanan: be afraid of melech malchei hamlachim as the kings on earth? you only taking precautions of your own and someone else’s health when governments require it?
Try this for comparison:
I almost got myself a nice free coat yesterday, but unfortunately it had a security tag on it?Government does not require you to keep shabbos, how do you justify keeping it?!
Thanking Hashem for being saved from sakanah – great
Thanking Hashem by ignoring the existing sakanah – bizayon and Hillul HashemWhen it is a mixed bag – is it a hetzi-full or a hetzi-empty kos bracha?
as this is a safek – I advise you to say hetzi-hallel bli bracha
frankly, it is more half-matza, half-hametz
RebE, same interview related to the issue of questions:
Basically I want, not just that you will look at the Gemara, but that you will get involved in it. You cannot learn Gemara completely passively. You have to be a participant.
There are two parts to what Hillel HaZaken said about kol haTorah kulah. One part is always quoted – “What you don’t want done to you, don’t do to others.” But the other part – “And all the rest go and learn” – is no less important.
I hope to have people who will learn and say, “We want to know more, we have more questions.”
——–>> changed the tzuras hadaf …you can’t even agree on a hat.
So, at the end you seem to agree with Rav Steinsalz on the issue of ahdut! I think he was very focused on addressing new group of learners that the rest was in the way. His 2012 explanation (that he eventually reversed) seems to say that:
In the original editions of the Steinsaltz Talmud, you changed the traditional look – the tzuras hadaf – of the pages, for which you were heavily criticized. For the new edition of the Hebrew and English Steinsaltz Talmud, however, you restored the old look. Why did you originally change it and why did you restore it?Look, in the beginning, it just couldn’t be done. All the additional material couldn’t be put on the old pages. I tried twenty-odd formats, and found out that if I used the traditional page, it would be at least two and a half times as big, which wouldn’t be usable. So the question is: What do you do – duplicate the page as ArtScroll did or cut it?
What I originally did in my Hebrew Gemaras was cut it. About 150 years ago in Poland, an edition with exactly the same kind of half pages was published. They made notes about why this was needed and [said] there was nothing holy about the other format. The traditional page is after all just a page. Even sifrei Torah can be written in different ways; surely Gemaras can be done differently too.
>> we understand the question we are answering.
as with a guy who asked a shaila whether he can make arba kosot on milk. Rav gave him money for wine – and also for meat.
>> You’d think someone who learns gemara would have saichal
this is the key question. Do we learn logical skills from Gemora, and if not, what is this activity?
we are discussing in another thread gemorot about several groups that always fight – dogs, roosters .. loose women, some say Talmidei Chachamim miBavel – meaning that Bavli argumentative style of searching for truth is picked up by some people inappropriately to argue any point without regards to truth. So, it is not a surprise that we have some people learning that way. More concerning to me personally is when we get a large group forming around such learning style, endangering our core values of integrity in learning
Do you have a source?
review Yohanan b’ Nuri Pesachim 35a, 114b, Brachot 37
RebE >Kashyeh comes from Heavenly Intervention,
beautiful, thanks. In my technical study of Q&As, I once asked a Rav what is most important when answering someone’s question? His answer – it is most important to help a person clarify his question
ujm, I do not disagree, but even that is not absolute and depends on circumstances and people involved. Information may be/must be shared for shidduch and business purposes; books might be/should be read by those who need to be prepared in their professional/social life.
In the house of Rabban Gamliel, some studied Greek books, of course not as much as Torah and Torah in the morning and Greek culture after that, right?
Also, how would they mark up money bags in beit hamidash – alef/beit/gimel or alfa/beta/gamma?!
Participant, it seems you have hard time living in a world without someone protecting you from all dangers. Please understand that this is how most people lived through centuries, and somehow kept their sanity.
Not complete sure, who told you these facts, but some of these reflected uncertainty and referred to the worst case. As of now, there are lots of good news on all your items
Censorship is bad is only a recent Western value … Vatican was maintaining a list of permitted books, I believe, including Jewish ones. And Rabbeinu Yonah regretted censoring Rambam ..
Haskamot seems to be of better value – you can choose or value your sources based on references. Google page rank algorithm proved that it works.
>> Chasan Sofer explains that he was unable to sacrifice a tamid as it needs unity
Unity is a good goal. It seems simple – Gemora says that when all Talmidei Chachamim daven on one street in Yerushalaim, Moaschiach will come .. simple? not so, said R Steinsaltz, we are not reading Gemora right – only when Moschiach comes, all Talmidei Chachamim will daven on the same street .. anyone knows exact reference, maybe I am not getting the whole joke without understanding the context
Mindful > just reflects on YWN readership, not the general public opinion.
general public opinion according to Census survey – 8% def not take, 9% prob not take, total decrease by 5% in two months, with most hesitant being: black, young, and from Alabama, not necessarily all together (and “some say” – Trump voters, to quote a famous gemora about Talmidei Chachamim from Bavel). Mindful, let me know if these numbers mean anything. I brought you before numbers about high death rate in Lakewood, but I did not see whether this helped you or not.
>> When there is a difference of opinion as to whether someone is a “Torah leader” worthy of “protection” or not, then the opinion of the “moderator” usually win
There is a well-known method to check for discrimination – for example, mail out identical resumes putting WASP, Jewish, black male/female names with it and count responses. You can try using quotes with different names attached and see whether names or content matters for moderators.
(hope this will not get me banned!)for example, I posted with some trepidation a dvar torah that Esther became Mordechai’s Rebbe first without attribution and it went through.
Yerushalmi Shekalim 10 talks about how government worked – and still works!
At some point cohanim gedolim would rebuild new expensive ramp for the para adumah and not use the one from the previous guy. Think Tappan Zee => Cuomo bridge
There were funds left over at beit hamikdash at the end of the year that they struggled to spend on something kodesh – golden plating, utensils. Nowadays, they often buy comfortable chairs with “end of year” funds.
RebE, thanks for supporting the idea of the all-knowing, not-asking students. As I mentioned before, there is a worldwide google-induced decrease in curiosity, so we need to guard for this.
Hafetz Haim brings a similar idea on Chacham being opposite to Rasha rather than Tzaddik in the context of his generation of haskala and trying to protect against it. He says (in probably a shocking for a “frum” person way): some say – you need to be frum, frum, and then klug (i.e. you need a double yirat shamaim to allow you access knowledge, otherwise it is too dangerous), and I am telling you: you should be klug, klug, and then frum. Hope you don’t accuse Hafetz Haim of open orthodoxy
GH: Legally, employers can require vaccination
It seems that this is true only if the employer has a serious justification due to work conditions. If you have employees that require “ordering”, I suggest having an alternative like working from home, working in a segregated area, or having regular testing. Thi is lot a legal advice, consult your local lawyer first.
GH, your chilling approach sounds reasonable, but I am not sure how to square it with the Hagada that seems to advise closely following and confronting children where they are instead of pushing it to the next year.
@common, – and rasha and she eino yodea get the same posuk as the answer .. they are clearly related (the source escapes me for a second, after all the cups).
she eino yodea is treated arguably harsher than rasha. “opened up” v. “blunting teeth”? We tend to see the first as clearly figurative and second almost as literal. But if you look at them fairly – literally “blunting teeth” is probably a minor dental procedure while “opening up” sounds more like an invasive surgery… Furthermore, rasha is given a shocking answer that might lead him to a teshuva, while she eino yodea gets the same posuk, possibly with the same meaning, but he is not even shocked …
there are lots of sympathetic views of the 4th son relating to people with no background, etc and they are great, of course – but peshat is: he is sitting with his learned father – he aint an orphan! – and still has no idea – or no interest – how to ask a question, despite all the tricks at the table, eating potatoes in a grotesque way, not counting days spent at school … what is wrong with him or his parents/educators?!
RebE, thanks, a good point. Will try to answer ..
related: Is rasha preferred to sheina yodea lishol – at least, he is askingHere the issue is that World Series on YK is once in a while but Friday/Saturday games are, apparently the core of the sport. Maybe we need to ask for baseball equity for short guys in yarmolkas.
If vaccinating the whole country ahead of the world a month before an election does not add a couple of seats in Knesset … re-defines “what did you do for me lately”