Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Yya, this was from someone’s memoirs, probably several weeks after the war started, USSR attacked Poland 2 weeks after Germany did and lines of control were fluid at that moment.
Yankel, I agree, but so many people were following logic that sounded kosher at the time. At minimum, this shows limits of our understanding of current events. Or think whether it was possible for polish jews to figure out politics of the time? On one hand, ww2 events were unprecedented even after terrible ww1 where most casualties were soldiers, not including russian revolution. On the other hand, is it not delusional to think you are safe when sandwiched between commies and nazis with millions already killed even before ww2 on one side and specific prosecution of jews on the other.
YYA> Rabbi Chiyya and his sons who led a taanis-atzeres tefillah,
Hm, no, this does not sound it – no mention of “one street in Yerushalaim” or the notion of all chachomim in one generation. Thanks, though.
YYA> There was a general statement read publicly at the conclusion of the Atzeres, summarizing the united position on the issues. You missed it. Again.
> Maybe you should get some first hand information, a little goes a long way.Thanks, I am exactly asking you for 1st hand information! I heard about the statement but did not read it. So, this general statement feels like a joint statement, shoin.
YYA> So you’re quoting a joke, by a colorful and insightful person who did a lot of good things, but he wasn’t generally considered to be a Gadol, against several dozen leaders of thousands each. Um, OK.
I think I found a good use of his tongue-in-cheek in my tongue-in-cheek! And his jokes usually had a point, not like mine! And unless a young AAQ grossly misunderstood, the gemorah was quoted seriously.
It might be that AAQ comes from Rav S’s saying – Each language has more words abot what is important for the people – eskimos have 100 synonyms for “snow”, Arabs – for “sand”, Jews for “question”.
AAQ> There are many conclusions from that, including one that R Soloveitchik shitah has a lot to offer. Maybe not to everyone, but a legitimate Torah-based view.
YYA> What relevance does any of this have to the present situation? The IDF itself was radically different 50 years ago.
the relevance is that when someone talks about current IDF, I first check out, or ask, what he thinks about RJBS or about positions he was holding. If turns out that this person dismissed RJBS that I don’t think this source is of interest, whether he is mistaken, misusing Torah for his purposes or stam not smart enough. If someone says, like it seems you do, that he sees some emes in the RJBS position at the time, but things changed now, I am interested in the discussion. This heuristics, unfortunately, saved me a lot of time.
thanks, for the explanation. So, put forward legislation that changes that and makes such units possible. And if it passes, follow up on that. If it does not, the other Israelis will see that you at least tried.
I think the new point in this thread is a list of halachik sources that ignore the issue. The list is very impressive. I wonder what the other side thinks about that rather than 100th discussion whether Ohr Sameach wrote or not a letter.
> The amhaaretz who saw them expressed his frustration. The Gemara Yidden are still here, the Nazis are long gone. Our fate is determined by the same One who gave us the Gemara. אוי ואבוי if our “pride” is in Israeli politics רחמנא ליצלן. Participants in what exactly? The only reason anyone remembers Rav Soloveitchik himself is because of his Torah.
I think you are right here. R Soloveichik writes exactly that – Jewish community is formed around a Teacher, not around a politician or a party. Still, there is no denial that his Torah is about how to be involved in the world, how to navigate this world without losing integrity of Torah.
And, if you want, the demonstration that you enjoyed so much is exactly an answer to that confused observer – those Gemara Yidden can participate in politics all right when they decide to.
YYA> You don’t know anyone like that? Maybe that has to do with where you live and how much interaction you have with Sephardim and Teimanim aged 70 and up?
Obviously, you know more people like that. Still, I do meet enough of these groups to get some statistics. Otherwise, I would not make such a statement. If you can’t fight off the yetzer hara questioning whether I have substance when I make statements, we can as well stop this Stasi interrogation.
So, if I know 100 Sephardim and 99 of them did not have such experiences, then this is limited to 1%. Now, you know 10 people with such experiences but these are out of1000 sephardim, then it is still 1%. Obviously, there are biases, as not each of them travels to America and I did not visit all communities in Israel, but I also read and talk to people that travel. Anyway, if you can show that such experiences were prevalent – I’ll be happy to listen.
YYA> Maybe because Kashrus is something Hashem told us to do, and democracy (in the Western sense) is not.
and then argues the opposite:
YYA> That was specific to the house of Rabban Gamliel, as Nassi, the (hereditary/meritocratic non-democratic) leader of Klal Yisroel who had to deal with the Romans. Sort of a vocational school for askonim. That wasn’t an ideal or a model for the general tzibbur to follow.
I agree with this, it is not for everyone. But best yeshivos should follow R Gamliel when developing leaders. The equal and large number of students is obviously symbolic. Maybe they do, we are just not always aware of it. for example, R Auerbach allowed R Lau to prepare for bagrut exam while in his yeshiva and even chastised him when the bachur Lau expressed disinterest in math & science.
YYA> This is a general machlah of historians to read everything as Goyish influence on Jews, and not the other way around.
could you stop being so sensitive. The historian was observant. Jews affected Polish development, you are right, does not necessarily they built all of it.
You are expressing thes ame idea I am making – that Jews participated in the “modern” (at the time) economy.> There were no German jews in British internment camps at the time of Normandy
Are you saying they were already released by that time? Somehow I thought the author mentioned “normandy”, maybe it was some earlier event.
The plan is to take part in distributing government funds for schools, free apartments, free transportation, free kosher/halal meals.
Jews & Muslims of the World, Unite ™.There is a report in a sefer of two trains with Jewish refugees in Sep 1939 – one going from Nazi occupation to Soviet, and the other going in the opposite direction, with passengers of of both them shouting to the other – idiots, where are you going!?
I saw this recently as a gilgul as a joke in JFK airport to/from Israel. I don’t know whether the joke author heard of the true original …
this looks like a good analysis, focusing not on some individual writings, but on a big picture whether the issue is discussed in major halachik sources.
The only caveat is that many issues looked of remote interest during middle ages and up to modern times. Some might still write about halochos of final redemption for which there was always Jewish earning, but the process how we will get there was not of urgent need to codify.
YYA> Where?
that’s part of my question 🙂 I heard it from R Steinsaltz, his “drash” was obviously tongue-in-cheek (an example of why Horayos recommend to look at the teacher’s face – to know by the smile whether he is serious or joking), but the gemora reference had to be genuine. I did not see this reference in his books, maybe the joke was too risqué to publis. Can anyone help find the source?
YYA> No agreement on what exactly? Nah, those Gedolim don’t REALLY mean it…
was there a general statement signed by everyone there? Maybe I missed. And I am asking questions about something I have only 2nd hand information, no need to be hostile.
YYA> News flash. We are currently in a different generation… There is something called hindsight…
Maybe I am not explaining myself well enough. Let me try again… [as Bobover Rebbe would say every time his neighbors upstairs will pick up their joint phone, breaking Rebbe’s conversation in the middle, before going to remind them of phone etiquette]:
I use benefit of hindsight, as you mention, to analyze machlokets of 100 to 50 years ago – close enough to be relevant but far enough to provide hindsight.
There are many conclusions from that, including one that R Soloveitchik shitah has a lot to offer. Maybe not to everyone, but a legitimate Torah-based view.
So, if someone says to me RJBS was correct about X, but this does not apply to group Y, I’ll listen.
if someone says it does not apply in our times because of this and this – I’ll listen.
But if someone says – R Soloveitchik was wrong then, and we need to only listen to someone else who was always right, I won’t value opinion of that person (I’ll listen to the factual info he is giving, of course).coffee> The Gemara might be referring to davening for moshiach, not davening for hatzalah from a problem (forced conscription)
a good observation that may explain things. Are you saying that the demonstration was more much focused on the conscription problem that they neglected to daven for moschiach. could be.
yankel > it seems that this rave sized you up – even without reading your posts – as someone with whom he has no common starting points
> thats why he withdrew from the argumentI don’t think so, and I was pretty polite and reserved and made sure to express my agreement on the good points he made. I did not even say what bothers me. I asked whether anything bothered him … He continued looking for an explanation.
> hazon ish writes in letter that if there is no common starting point between two divergent opinions , then arguments are futile
this may be the core problem. This presumption that if someone does not agree with your (group) conclusions that they “have no common point” – and presumably your is a Torah point and the other is not is the core problem here.
NP > lso, you are making another mistake. In cases of sakana one has to be concerned even for a minority view.
I apologize for misspeaking, thanks for the correction, hope nobody followed my posts and drank the waters poisoned by the snake in the meantime.
[about charedi cyber unit]
YYA> Been there, done that, bunch of baloney… They had some cool code name for it though…why baloney? please share your experience with that
YYA> The current Chief Justice of the SC was appointed through a highly questionable process, and despite having a problematic track record that would never have passed had he stood before a fair and representative committee. In the US the Senate must directly confirm appointments at this level.
You are probably right here. Israeli democracy has weak points that are hard to fix. But, as the numbers I quoted above show, Israeli democracy is in a reasonable state overall and is improving over time.
Somehow, halakhists spent centuries discussing fine points of kashrus, but did not develop good theories of democracy. R Gamliel has 1000 people in his household learning Torah and 1000 learning Greek. We lost that skill to balance things. Maybe it will come back … for example, according to a historian who studied Jewish Poland during Vaad Arba Artzos, Jewish political and business structures mostly mirrored Polish ones (that were pretty advanced and democratic by those times, until Poland missed out on industrialization)
Someone published a letter during WW2, being surprised at watching German Jews in British internment camps – they were learning about wars of Talmudic times, but totally ignored Normandy and such, even if those were to determine their fate. The author was frustrated with this Jewish disinterest to real life. Someone else forwarded this letter to R Soloveitchik asking him to respond publicly. He did not, but 10 years later, he recalled this letter saying: I hope the author is still alive and can see Israeli politics and observe that Jews are still able to be participants …
So, why wouldn’t Steipler allow his opponents to use language misleading reshoyim – when they were confronting an anti-religious 1950s Israeli government?
AAQ> And those who use it here are simply representative of much larger community that use this loshon. See Steipler’s letter.
YYA> The Steipler’s letter? Get real. He was talking about misrepresentation of Halacha, not Israeli secular law.Maybe I am taking Steipler’s position too far – I am thinking the letter would kal vehomer include all kind of lying (of which he does not
accuse his opponents). Do you disagree?AAQ> Ok, so then claim your position and defend it: your position is not about protecting learners, but about anyone from your community joining.
YYA> That is my position, and in practice that is the (not publicly stated) position of the vast majority of Gedolei Yisroel.
.. . ועם עיקש תתפתלwhat you are saying sounds like a plausible explanation. Maybe it is my (and whoever else is telling me that) wishful thinking that some rabonim would be willing to compromise. You do mention that they might compromise on OTDs, you know that could be a first step.
And if your theory is correct, and public statements of “defending Torah” are misleading “reshayim”, this seems very confounding. You see, if you are fighting some reshayim who value, say, money, then you can mislead them to protect Torah by discussing money matters. Here, according to you, in an attempt to protect the “kahal”, the claim is being made that protecting only Torah. That is, you presume that the “reshayim” will be attracted to that claim, that they respect the “Torah learning” claim. That is a very twisted situation. And, I am afraid, this might explain hostility that arises in opposition such dishonest claims.
Maybe it does not even matter whether your explanation is correct or not, what is important is moris ayn – that many people presume that they are being misled by these statements. Maybe, the rational political argument in your community is that this negative effect is a price to pay for the political benefits they bring. For the rest of the Torah community (my impression), this is just the negative effect on the whole klal Yisroel.
YYA> why doesn’t this make your blood boil?
I apologize if my language sounded like I am dismissing your views. I am not. I am just somewhat at peace with the fact that a lot of Jews, as well as umot haolam, followed misguided movements 100+ years ago. It happened everywhere and brought a lot uf suffering. I reserve my indignation to those who actually murdered people, such as nazis and commies, but I have some understanding of those who were swept by the ideologies of the time and thought that they bring light to the world. I’ve seen people like that, or their children, in several countries, including Israel, and many of them were sincere individuals with various types of middos.
We seem to differ on facts – the stories you mentioned are very real, but I don’t think they are typical. This is not the story that I ever heard from random people. For example, I’ve never met a sephardi who was damaged by zionist efforts. They all have different attitudes depending on their family background but none of them was captured. Same goes for Teimani, never met anyone abducted.
Tehran children is an interesting story, with the most tragic part of course is their journey thru USSR. If you didn’t read a book of interviews with the children, please do. I think I’ve met just one person who talked about his relative that arrived to Israel via that route. He was from a religious family and had two distant relatives who were fighting to accept him – one was religious and was in a kibbutz. According to my contact, both sides was motivated not only/so much by ideology but by the funds that were coming to those who will accept the kid (I am not 100% sure of the credibility of this report).
Again, I am not dismissing your position, I just have different picture what a typical experience was, and compare it with alternatives in other countries at the time. I realize that this may be a too abstract comparison for you.
I am not 100% sure how NY politics will go. It could be that some Jewish organizations will find common language with the new mayor in distributing government funds to schools, apartments, children subsidies and he’ll look for some support of this kind.
Debater, from what I know, Moses Montefiori in 1850s sponsored first Jewish places outside of Yerushalaim.
I don’t think old yishuv had any other agricultural ventures on their own. Did they?
I believe one reason those were not happening – it was just too dangerous, such were the “friendly” neighbors.
Also, zionists settlements proceeded in a similar way – by buying property.qwerty > . So, I threw her a curve,
I guess you have to be there to understand the context, but this is not acceptable phone manners.
Your statements are pretty much emotional with very limited factual input and very limited demonstration of understanding how modern government work. Did any of you take a world government or history class at high school or college level? Let me bring some data – yes, it is imperfect, but this is what I found:
There is a democracy index computed per country that only goes 20 years back. Israel went from 7.2 to 7.8 (it was 8.0 2 years ago), while US went down from 8.2 to 7.8 and they are matching as of 2024 …
By component:
Israel is at top 9.6 on electoral process and 9.4 on political participation (US slightly lower)
but only 5.6 on civil liberties (Kyrgyzstan, Mexico, US 8.5 ), 6.9 on political culture (US 6.2) , and 7.5 on functional government (better than US 6.5)other than civil liberties, Israel and US have very similar profile
to summarize for both countries: high participation in politics, but low culture and results.
It seems that after an initial shock, some Jewish leaders will find a Common Language with the Socialist mayor: School subsidies, cheaper housing. This might work similar to Israel, where many people are on the right politically but on the left economically.
YYA> What does this have to do with “sociological processes”?!
your example is fair as is your frustration. I am saying that similar matzav existed in other countries. Fathers with shtreimlach had children who were going to anarchist/communist/bundist meetings and got excited about those ideas [see 80% of young women in NYC voting for Mamdani after all lessons about socialism from 20th century, but I digress]. This was everywhere. Slabodka at some point sent new contingent of yeshiva bochrim from Kovno to Telshe because the previous crop of students decamped into socialism. There is a reason, R Kotler’s teachers in Minsk intercepted letters from his sister – because they were legitimately afraid that he might follow her advice to study math. R Solovechik describes meeting a mathematician Yaakov Gromer in Berlin who was Einstein’s secretary – and former talmid of Chaim Brisker, non-observant but learning gemora and describing that Einstein is a moral person but R Chaim’s chesed was at a different level …
So, those students who you describe were nto simply hostages of a group of liars, they were victims of the information dominant at the time. They also heard news, read papers, and discussed ideas with their friends. And Jewish leaders at the time did not have a good answer.
YYA> difference between studying a ‘trade’ = אומנות, and studying ‘secular lnowledge’ = חכמות חיצוניות.
Yes, I understand that the Rav was interested in umanut (which is an explicit Gemora Kiddushin 30 universally applicable to most parents, except R Nehorai) and not at all interested in science, which even those who were more into science, from R Gamliel to Shmuel to Rambam to R Hirsch to R Soloveitchik. would admit is relevant to some people. I still do not understand why in Hungary he insisted on non-Jewish teachers. Maybe you are right that in Hungarian contest, the school started with academic subjects, while Israeli system he envisioned was pure uneducated umanut, histadrut-style – farming and construction and not doctors and lawyers. Similar to the trade school path in Germany. Also, Hungary was real life, while his Palestinian system was a lofty dream.
I brought academic loshon as is, just to pick up the info that might be there. I am not sure what are the implications of herem. Seems like it was litvishe with hungarians disagreeing. Why was he treated harsher than r Kook, even if his on-the-ground activities were of less impact?
Also, seemingly his position on money distribution seem to indicate that the existing charedi system was built to protect benefits for the residents rather than encourage others to come – and Rav was trying to change that – enabling increased immigration.
YYA> their conclusion was that over 90% of the bochurim registered do in fact learn full time.
> We have discussed ad nauseam why the IDF as it is now is not an option for Chareidim even if they don’t learn.Ok, so then claim your position and defend it: your position is not about protecting learners, but about anyone form your community joining.
This is exactly what I was asking – be clear what you stand for. Don’t mislead people with different arguments. It does not surprise me, and probably, you too when leftists are using biased arguments against religious Jews. But it is bizayon to Torah when irresponsible arguments are made in the name of the Torah. A lot of comments here that use word “illegal” instead of “I disagree” illustrate that. You can’t use such language if you are an erliche Yid. And those who use it here are simply representative of much larger community that use this loshon. See Steipler’s letter.Still, my impression is that many of the rabbonim would agree to service of those who are not learning, at least in part.
YYA> These are bochurim who were legally exempt, and the Supreme Court-AG decided to change the law, without democratic process, specifically in order to make them “criminals”.
a modern democratic country does not mean that all decisions are made by direct vote. Power is dispersed, with various indirectly elected institutions holding some of the power. Romans understood that. They had various elected positions – dictators (a lot of power, but for one year only), senate, tribunes (representatives of lower classes). Even when Rome had emperors and modern historians start calling Rome “an empire”, contemporary roman historians, such as Tacitus, still call it “republic” with emperor being a part of the system. In their view, as long as there is Senate, it is a republic … Gemorah understands it the same way – when Antoninus asks R Yehudah that he can ask one favor from the Senate – to make his son emperor after him or to rescind taxes on Jews, a clear description of limited powers of the emperor.
Some of the aspects of Israeli system are indeed concerning that they are captured by certain groups and might benefit from improvements. Such changes to the system (where the system is defined explicitly in US via constitution and often implicitly in Israel and other countries) usually require not just a 51% majority but a larger consensus in the country. So, if you can modify your position to make it palatable to super-majority of Israelis – or wait until your grandchildren outnumber the rest, you’ll change the system.
YYA> Do not know what you are talking about. Maybe you think there is some Tzaddik Nistar hiding in a cave somewhere who agrees with your Hashkafa?
I don’t know. The point here is that Gemora seemingly says that if all gedolim daven together – Moschiach will come. I presume here that Gemora insists on “all”, maybe because all (legitimate) views are precious and Moschiach will need to consult all of them? I don’t know. The point is that, under this assumption, as Moschiach did not come after the demonstration, then someone was missing.
I am going here of my recollection of R Steinsaltz’ remark – if someone can help me find this gemora, I would appreciate it and maybe we will can learn it in more detail.
yankel, I am sorry of I missed your substantive question, please repeat it.
YYA> Rabbonim, Admorim, and Roshei Yeshivos who led the Atzeres were davka far from being extremists
I did not claim that. I just suggested that you have a frank discussion with some Rosh Yeshiva and qualified that I mean a non-extremist one. I am fine also if you intreview a more zealous person as long as you disclose that.
> Achdus was amazing.
Yes, that is what was reported by the participants to me and to the rabbis I talked to. And I am asking how does achdus feels when you know that this is a political event that is highly offensive to the rest of klal Yisroel. This reminds me of the latest daf yomi siyum with the speeches about “klal yisroel” and “all learners”, my kids were mesmerized … when I pointed out to them that all speakers are charedi, they looked to first deny, then explain it, before admitting … as Kotzker Rebbe comments on the midrash of Hashem throwing emes to the ground when creating Adam – sholom without emes is easy…Maybe, rather than playing monday morning quarterback, can we think of an achdus event that can start healing these divisions? How about an all-charedi event addressing soldiers in the manner of Chofetz Chaim (with all corrections you want to current situation, but keeping his loving attitude).
> There was a rotation of Sephardi Litvish and Chassidish chazzanim saying Sephardi and Ashkenazi Selichos and Tehillim. There was an agreed upon speech or declaration of sorts at the end, but the main focus was in fact on Tefillah.
So, anyone can support or disprove this suggestion that there was no general agreement and therefore focus was on tehilim rather than a keynote speech.
YYA> between what the Chofetz Chaim was dealing with then, and what we are dealing with now.
I did not really make any conclusions from Mahane Yisroel – I brought the quotes that might be relevant. Feel free to interpret them according to what you think. I am all ears.
YYA> the difference between “Rabbis” and “Gedolei Yisroel”,
This is why I prefer discussing situation in previous generation with R Soloveichik against other Gedolei Yisroel. In that situation, I think I did enough research to to assert that RJBS qualifies for this title. I would not argue that he was in a majority, even there are multiple others who had related, sometimes to a lesser degree positions. I am more focused on quality of the positions than on quantity here. From here, I see following RJBS shitah as a legitimate derech. Am I projecting his views on today correctly? I don’t know. Therefore, I am always looking for your input in this analysis.
As to current generation, I prefer to use “rabbis”. I don’t know whether any of the moderni rabbis qualify as gedolei. I agree that it is probably more likely that many of today’s charedi rabbis might be seen as gedolim a generation later, but it is also not a given. I don’t think we can have a meaningful discussion about it not just because we are not at the level, but because it is impossible to resolve issues so close in time – and this is view of R Steinsalz on similar topics. He remarked that Gemora gives reasons for destruction of beis hamidash – but it took some time after the event to formulate them.
rav> we can’t fully understand politics of another country
yankel> seems that this rov knows you well …wrong guess. To clarify: the first Rav I mentioned knows me well, this person was a visitor. And he did not insist on that. After my further response, he retreated and tried another defence. He himself is pretty familiar with Israeli politics – he just used this wording to evade an honest answer. He either was conflicted himself or, more likely, was afraid to take a position either way. Left me a little sad how afraid people are to express their opinion even while they are giving lecture about Toirah and emes.
I am not sure why you are not thanking me for the suggestion to form a cybersecurity unit and not following up with it. This suggestion is exactly to minimize the problems you are talking about. Such a unit will not have to deal with pritzus or anything else. If you are not sure how to proceed, find someone professional who can help. Start fundraising and open classes. When you start this, post about the group, I’ll help, bli neder, direct that group in the right direction.
Agree with most of the answers. But this just underscores how little we are in control and how humble we should be.
It is also ironic that after all events in Israel for the last 2 years, it takes a mayoral election to shake up a comfortable suburban Yid.It says in Gemora Tannis that a community should daven when there is a pandemic in a nearby city, even if just connected by caravans, and also in EY…
YYA> Did the Czar draft girls?
It is probably my fault to go that far off-topic. you can look at Chofetz Chaim’s Mehane Yisroel, here are some quotes to illustrate how he
related to Jewish soldiers. Hope we have rabbis now who speak this way to soliders, and soldiers who read this …true it is difficult for a person in service to observe torah. However, unless he has a feeble character,
he will overcome his passions and conquer his evil inclinations, A real, earnest endeavor in this direction
would make his deeds so more precious and his thoughts more sanctified. The period of his service in the army
can be made by him the most outstanding one in his whole life, and the most valuable in his
spiritual achievements. …wholesome family life is the basic element of Jewish national structure. ,.. vicious environment may cause man to go astray…
associating with evil company may make him feel he is not alone when he engages in illicit activity
engagement with other things, especially study or prayer, frequently will help man to regain and maintain his morals.faithful person does not break down under duress, soldier relying on Hashem will combat enemy .. to be mighty of heart and of soul
is to live a great life. Soldier exposed to danger .. should pay attention to his behavior .. and fulfil mitzvos better as in danger, his
deeds are examined in heaven …when one’s life is at stake, it is permitted to break mitzvos, but transgressions should be minimized
from Gemora: in a Jewish army, only those who viewed themselves innocent could join. Transgressions may be – speaking between yishtabach and yotzer ohr… including forbidden speech .. soldier in the time of war should reconcile with other people, seek forgiveness from people he offended,
develop chesed middos towards other people, every kindness he does towards his fellow soldiers … then, he describes all famous Jewish warriors and prayers a soldier should say before going to battle.YYA, you describe a process of religious Jews in Israel becoming non-religious in the next generation.
I am sure it looked very focused for those who lived in EY at the time. But I wonder whether this sociological process is part of what was happening everywhere in the early 20th century, with the world going mad with communist ideas – either parallel to what was happening with Jews in Europe or just part of that process with new arrivals bringing their non/anti-religious attitudes with them.Times often define the events, not specific movements. As Menashe says to R Ashi in a dream “if you were to live in my generation, you would be running after me [towards A’Z] picking up your suit ..”
YYA> Israel as a whole remained stuck in Socialist shackles for the first 30 years of its existence, until Menachem Begin came to power and broke the Labor monopoly
I agree with the whole post.
R Schlesinger seems to be an interesting figure, indeed in between different worlds. On one hand, he was against secular education both in his native Hungary and in EY, on the other hand he wanted to reform haluka system that supported EY Jews that was not suitable to accommodate mass arrivals that he anticipated and was seemingly not just helping to found Petach Tikva but also sympathetic to some zionist ideas.
Seemingly, our silly discussion is reflected in academic literature, To quote one paper: “considered by some scholars to be a forerunner of ultra-Orthodoxy, but by others as a forerunner of Zionism.” He is an interesting figure, and no less controversial than, say, R Kook, even as he did not necessarily leave many followers (where are all these charedi farmers now?). As his utopic peaceful world were to happen under the wise Ottoman Sultan, hard to say what he would say about charedi soldiers. See below some interesting quotes I found, hope they are yashar.
It seems that R Schlesinger supported agricultural activities for those who are not suited for learning – first in Hungary, then in EY, but in religious setting. Women were not allowed to read external literature, go to theatre, attend simchos without separation and wearing wigs (duh).
I am a little confused: in one place, he writes: You should only teach that [the secular subjects] which they must learn, and only by a non-Jew—this is a law that cannot be abrogated. In another (maybe in EY context), to the opposite, suggests learning professions in Hebrew.
The society that he proposed had its own set of rules that differed from those of the kollel, the avant garde group that was designed to lead the society. The kollel had more stringent rules, and anyone who joined it was obligated to follow the behaviours characteristic of sects. These stringencies included immersion in the mikveh and carrying one’ s bed on his shoulders rather than in a horse-drawn wagon. he proposed organizing the people according to the biblical model including family units, banners, and 12 tribal units. Members of each tribe would wear uniform clothing and would speak only Hebrew. central leadership would include three religious leaders headed by a nasi, who would sit in Jerusalem, and would be governed by a supreme council consisting of representatives from each tribe and from the diaspora Jewish community. The council would work towards building a Jewish entity in Palestine that would be recognized by the ruling Ottoman Empire.
Schlesinger’ s excommunication by the heads of the Ashkenazi community in Jerusalem was caused by a number of factors, including his criticism of the Hungarian kollel for not distributing money to new immigrants to Israel, his leniency vis-à-vis the ban of Rabbeinu Gershom, his pretentious messianism, and the halakhic rulings in his book Beit Yosef hahadash that were not supported by any Orthodox approbations .. We are excommunicating, ostraciz-
ing, and prohibiting the book Beit Yosef hahadash with all types of bans and prohibitions … because it should be hidden and burned, just like all external books and the books of heretics. ” The ban was signed by Chief Rabbi of the Ottoman Empire R. Avraham Ashkenazi, the Chief Rabbi of the Ashkenazim R. Meir Auerbach … Schlesinger also got into an argument with the Hungarian kollel regarding the halukkah subsidies. He demanded that subsidies be given immediately for new immigrants to the Land of Israel, which was contrary to the kollel policy of not giving support from the kollel to new immigrants during the first two years. This policy was designed to prevent the new immigrants from taking advantage of the kollel at the expense of the members who were already in Israel and who were from the original phases of its organization. The leadership of the kollel prevented Schlesinger
from receiving support and brought him to a state of abject povertyYYA> wise. When all three Moetzes, plus the Eidah, plus Rav Thau and a few RZ for good measure, all agree on THE CORE ISSUE, even if they disagree on political details etc., so you have a VERY SOLID CONSENSUS of Torah leaders. Don’t tell me stories about deceased Gedolei Yisroel from decades ago. Tell me why you feel entitled to disagree with ALL the above Gedolei Yisroel.
You are provoking me to list RZ and MO rabbis who disagree. I don’t want to go and start studying these machlokets in depth and get into shouting match. I just quoted in another thread – I asked a couple of serious rabbonim in person and they both sounded very conflicted. Could you make a similar effort and ask in private some of the non-extreme rabbis that I think you have access to, and elicit their balanced opinion that you can then quote without attribution.