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akuperma> the person likely to be saying kaddish in shul is usually saying it for a parent,
primary obligation is on the son if available, so most obligations will be on him.
rebEmes, to illustrate what a random reform dude knows. When I was in college, I once was renting an apartment from such a guy. When he sees me preparing for shabbos, he would ask – “are you going to a temple”? I would answer “Ugh? I am going to the synagogue or shul XX”. After several times, I asked him – why is he insisting calling my shul “temple”. He said – isn’t it the same? I enlightened him that the ‘temple” thingy came out of the idea that we do not need a Temple in Yerushalaim anymore, that we can build local German/American temples”. He became very upset that he was unknowingly supporting this nonsense all his life and stopped saying that. Interestingly, he had no idea what he did not know, and I could not comprehend that he does not know and thought that he was annoying me on purpose.
rebEmes> the entire world knows what kosher is
you really live in a different world than they do and it is hard to relate. Maybe this example: most people know that exercise and healthy food and not smoking and not getting angry is good for your health. How many people do not follow this? Even among doctors, even among yeshiva graduates. Now, imagine someone who is trained in all of that, figured out his calories and knows how to exercise every specific muscle. This person can’t relate to all those lazy people who are still surprised why they are not healthy.
Same with you – you can’t relate to people who grew up where “temple” is a place to sing and listen to a speech, etc. They heard what “kosher” is, but they don’t see people around them who follow this, so it is a theoretical construct of previous century … and maybe when they saw someone observant, they could not relate to them also. This is what R Soloveitchik was writing about in 1950s – he spent a whole night talking with American Jewish students about their questions about religion and philosophy and he says – they had nowhere to turn: reform clergy are not giving them anything deep, and eastern european rabbis don’t have the same language (both literally and figuratively)
Maybe you can relate to this – take posters here who denounce multitudes of observant Jews, repeating the same quotes from same several rabbis and totally ignoring everyone else. How did they get there. Presumably, they had yeshiva education and learned sevorah and kavod Talmidei Chachomim. But somehow, they were unfortunate to be among people or get absorbed by some idea that they reject the basics of yiddishkeit. It is hard to understand, but people’s minds are complicated things.
> thank Him that your family member is not on the other end of the call.
I think OP is not acting out, he is showing respect to the hatzolah here asking how to deal with the issue politely. I am sure if the guy would be on the sports radio, there would be no question and lots of shouting
Anyway, Chofetz Chaim in Nidhei Yisroel, and probably in other places too, mentions that your annual income on Rosh Hashona excludes not only shabbos but also money for teaching your sons Torah.
That is your $200K salary may be predicated on your yeshiva tuition. So, if you ask for discount from the yeshiva – you will simply reduce your annual income! You are just wasting your time!
If you read this Chofetz Chaim literally, then you can still worry about limudei chol and girls’ education. I did not find Chofetz Chaim worry about those. Maybe because he writes to people who went to America 150 years ago and were providing limudei chol at the expense of Torah.
He probably does not want to change the volume from the one he is used to. Maybe give him a pillow so that he can put it over the radio without a need to change the volume. But asking nicely should be OK.
If you want to do something with the famine – go do some science! Tiferes Yisroel writes about chasidei olam who are rewarded by Hashem by improving human lves – Jenner vaccine, Gutenberg press, and Capt Drake for bringing potato to Europe and alleviating famines.
I saw this quote without exact attribution:
R. Moshe Feinstein was asked about the prayer for the state of Israel. He said that it should be modified to indicate a Hopeful Zionist view, instead of a Messianic Zionist approach. The text, as he recommended, is as follows: “Our Father in heaven, the rock of Israel and its redeemer, bless the state of Israel that it become the beginning of the sprouting of our Redemption (she-t’hei reishis tzemihas ge’ulaseinu).”Also, here are 2nd hand quotes found online, please double-check
R. Yosef Eliyahu Henkin was adamantly opposed to the position of the Satmar Rav. He wrote:
I was shocked to read in Chomoteinu of Cheshvan 5719 the slanderous notion that we are required to give our lives (limsor nefesh) to frustrate and resist the efforts of the State of Israel in its struggle against those who would rise up against them. This was stated as a p’sak din based on what we learn that Israel is restricted from rebelling against the nations (Ketubot 111a)… Now all the rabbis who were opposed to Zionism and the establishment of a state took up that position until the time that it was officially founded. Once the state was declared, anyone who plays into the hands of the nations of the world even where there is no imminent danger, is clearly a moseir and rodeif. All the more when there is danger to destruction of life in so doing… Surely, those who recently emigrated must be very weary of the state’s efforts to strip them of their Torah way of life, but to proclaim that anyone who aids the state is a rodeif, well such talk is the severest form of redifa.
Seidei Esh, “Herzl, the Man of Religion”
R. Ovadiah Yosef Yabi’a Omer, vol. 6, Orah Hayim nos. 41-42 about yom haatzmaut
Torah She-be-Al Peh (16, 5734, pp. 19-20), “I wish to emphasize first that the state of Israel and independent Jewish reign in our holy land is of the highest historical and religious significance.”R. Ya’akov Kamenetsky writes in his Emes Le-Ya’akov Al Ha-Torah (Exodus 12:2 n. 17): It is incumbent on us to understand that the establishment of the state of Israel in our day, after the the great destruction and despair that overtook the remnant, and given the desperate and destroyed status of Russian Jewry, God caused the establishment of the state of Israel in order to strengthen the connection to Judaism and to sustain the link between the Jews in exile and the Jewish nation.
Mikhtav Me-Eliyahu, vol. 3 pp. 349-353
R. Eliezer Silver. Every year Silver publicly supported Bond of Israel dinner. Following the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Silver marched in a New York Zionist parade in its support. Silver later participated in a Mizrachi conference. Afterwards, at an Agudah conclave, there were those who desired to disbar Silver. It was reported that Rabbi Kotler opposed this request… [AAQ: I believe they had a personal connection and r Kotler took a train to see R Silber after arriving to US].
significance of whether Israel would win recognition as the Jewish state was so strong that R. Teitz left a radio on in his study over Shabbat, November 28/29, 1947, in order to hear the vote in the United Nations… 1948 essay “A Key [or, An Opening] To Redemption” .. He thought that the founding of the state of Israel eliminated most of the differences between Agudath Israel and Mizrachi, which had centered on the question of whether there should be a Jewish state at all. Once this question had been answered with a fact, the parties should cooperate. R. Teitz met regularly in 1948-49 with a group trying to create a united religious front in Israel, but the two groups elected to remain separate.
PS The alleged quoted from R Chaim is yet another second-hand quote from Chofetz Chaim. The lack of first-hand Chofetz Chaim words is astounding, given amount of writing he left.
On R Hutner quote:
If you read R Hutner’s article in the Observer – it is really a side point to his length exposition showing that Shoah is not appropriate term that indicates exclusivity of the tragedy, while he puts in in the perspective of overall Jewish history. He then mentions that State of Israel (yes, he uses the term) blames European Rabbis for discouraging emigration and he says “we don’t need to discuss that” and brings a counter-point that was quoted here that Zionists alienated Mufti. He then says that it is not the point to blame anyone as we are not Naviim …
I would like to add:
1. Perhaps his listeners at the Agudah convention new same facts he did, but I am not aware that Rabbinical reluctance of emigration was not important
2. I don’t think anyone nowadays seriously think that Mufti had any influence on Nazi YMSh plans.,
3. R Hutner also aptly describes how modern times are different – we were used to prosecutions, but modernity first offered hope of equality and then was reversed back to cruelty. And as examples he brings French revolution, German equality laws and … British Balfur declaration, which he seems to consider a positive thing that British later tried to walk back.A following article by R Elias expands on these points a little. He quotes Zionist leaders who preferred young people only and says that this and not Rabbis who were responsible for Jews not coming to EY before WW2. This at least disagrees with those who say Jews should not have been coming to EY and it also seem to contradict historical facts where there were many communities that did not try to go to EY before it was too late. Maybe R Elias is focusing just on the years during WW2 when danger became clear. But read that Observer yourself.
PS I looked at Empty Wagon after it was quoted here. The book is aptly named! I am sure you picked up the book because it confirmed your ideas.
I would suggest independently verifying the quotes and their full context from the original sources before posting them.Yes, Chofetz Chaim condemned Jewish communists, this is well known. Now, you are saying that Rav Elchonon applies this also to Zionists in EY.
First, I thought the poster just made a silly mistake, but turns out he was actively committing gnevas daas – trying to convince readers that Rav E extension of what Chofetz Chaim said is actually “Chofetz Chaim”. As he kindly expanded on his “quote” (thanks!), it seems that his mind is not settled on what quoting is. As we learn from Megilah that quoting the original author is a big mailah, it is important to work on this middah further!
On Rav E, it is clear, at least from this quote, that he is talking about misyavnim, who are exactly the same as evsekim – and indeed there were groups that were communist or near-communist groups in Israel. There is nothing here about R Kook and such, of course, although I will not be surprised that there are other quotes like that.
What made me thinking – I do not see here, and did not encounter in other places, Chofetz Chaim talking about such groups in EY. We have hispossible quotes that he wanted both Old Yishuv and Rav Kook students learn Mishna Berurah, but it would be very surprising that there are not at least some groups in EY that he did not like. Do we have any such quotes. He did write about “culturual” schools and such in Poland, although also not being too specific. I would be interested to understand how Chofetz Chaim dealt with these issues. Anyone?
chufetz chaim??
RebEmes, maybe you do not have enough imagination how other people live. Someone who is raised in non-religious community may have “heard” something, but does not mean they fully understand the concepts. They may even have heard put it in such context that they do not take it seriously.
Most of those Israelis were not from religious families – Israel on average is becoming more religious, not less, B’H in the last 80 years. So, most of the (still) non-religious might have had kibutznikim grandparents… And even when you are talking about OTDs that grew up in a religious community, it might well be possible that their family and community did not present Yiddishkeit to them in the right way. I am not saying that real reshoyim do not exist, but in this generation most simple people have good excuses for their behavior, ignorance being the primary one.
imho> the girls did not want to marry yeshiva bochurim, (it was a new concept)
Not because it was a new concept, but because they were not ready to provide for the family. I think it is a Slabodka story when a bochur lost a button from his nice suit he was wearing for the shidduch. This one did not work out, so when the next guy went out with the girl, she returned him the button and, not surprisingly, it matched the suit…
Kuvult> How could all these converts to Chasidism change so many minhagim?
Because it wasn’t long after the Kehillas existed & you switched based on where you live.
So coming from that culture joining a Chasidic sect & adopting their Mesorah was really not as difficult or stressful as we would view it today.I am not sure I understand your argument. Putting aside the possibly valid reasons for people interested in chasidism and not happy with the existing communities – this change drastically affected communities, shul attendance, tax collection (most communities had meat & candle tax and suddenly a large part of the town shifted to their own shochet …). It was not “easy as moving to another town”.
IMHO> compromising on yiddishkeit, that is not helpful for our kids, you care about them? You want to spend more time with them? Compromise on your selfish spenditure,
I think we presume here that people here are not buying fancy cars and then complaining about high tuition.
But a genuine question for those who pay tuition and know their school finances: how much of your tuition is paying for reasonable expenses for your kids – teacher’s salary, building and how much is paying for others, admin expenses? would you save significantly if you organized your own small school with one rebbe for say 10-20 students?
Chaim > Boys should be banned from being on that floor.
I’ve seen one billionaire when he was honored in our yeshiva at a dinner, his 20 yo son was serving food to the bochrim at the other side of the table.
asher> minhagim are passed down from father to son unless a “Gadol” or community whom one associates himself with has a different minhag.
you can have your own minhag different from the community, you just need to conform to the community minhag in public.
Minhag is essentially a neder, and changing a minhag is equivalent to hatarat nedorim. It is possible when needed. The most danger to minhagim is that they all get destroyed by uniform approaches when people start following what is popular or what their yeshiva is teaching.
phil> frum women in the medical field wearing pants and wigs. It is a lav in the Torah that women can’t wear mens’ clothing, it is insane that they ignore this halacha and call themselves frum.
Slow on this point. These are not necessarily men’s pants. One of our daughters looked once into wearing pretty tzanuah pants for skiing, and the psak seems to be that it is easier to permit pants for lawyers for work purposes than for leisure event.
R Miller
Rocky, I think the main reason for low self esteem for bochrim that they were from poor families to begin with and were not earning anything while learning. You are right, it was to counter-act the low self-esteem, not to grow gaavah over the regular Yidden. And their dress was respectable by the standard of the time, not “over the top”. So, let’s not blame Alter from Slabodka who was very sensitive to middos and was paying attention that every student grows appropriately for the current excesses and uniformization.
Echo, why wear hat, unless you are a Rav? Why can’t you wear a cap or a turban like you zeide or sabah did? was he not frum enough?
Suit is ok, the whole world wears suits for important meetings.kuvult> Did Jews not move back then? Now you know why. Jews switched from Mesorah to Mesorah based on the Kehilla rules where they lived.
most people did not move. at best, they would travel to sell something. even in modern Israel, it is hopeless to ask a random person in the street about an address in the neighboring town.
fake, I am glad you seem to be on the right derech.
When I was growing my business like you, my motto was like the proverbial Store 24 that was found closed: “we work 24 hours, but not in a row!”. You just need to be flexible to find time for the family – drive them to/fro school, let them do homework near your work. Try finding a partner, rather than employees, there is no substitute for someone who also feels responsible. for the business.
On yomtov, still not sure why it is so taxing – you are taking a vacation, like everyone else in the whole world. You are still eating every day…
On schools, you are scaring me – you are saying that limudei chol are such a minor part of the curriculum. Try to interest your kids. There are tons of online resources, some are more serious – khan academy, melamed academy, IXL, edgenuity, others are more fun – beast academy, kahoot, brainpop, codemonkey (my list is a couple of years old though).
> Torah life and learning began growing in the United States and – despite ongoing Zionist shmad – in E”Y as well
Oy, so modeh es haemes, just calling it “despite”. Karl Popper defined a “theory” as something that is falsifiable. That is, if I claim that temperature tomorrow will be higher than 20C, this will be true or false. But if I say “tomorrow will be a good day” without defining what is “good, and then say that nice rain is a good day for agriculture – then this is not a theory. Rambam’s definition of a navi is similar – negative predictions are not falsifiable, as Hashem can rescind them, but positive ones should be verified.
An example above shows that some opinions or even “nevuos” are no theories – when confronted with reality, the reality is explained away. To show that my position is not correct, maybe you can show an explicit line is Rav Elchonon where he says – yes, zionist rule in EY will allow numerous yeshivos, and the non-religious government will subsidize their learning, kindergarten and housing, and protect them from sonei yisroel – but it still will be a bad thing.
DaMoshe> actually had someone who works in a kiruv organization once say to me, “You need to take that silly colored thing off your head, and replace it with a plain black one!”
You should kiruv this guy too! (is kiruv also a verb?)
When my kids run kiruv events, they sometimes get “frum” kids coming, attracted by fun and food. Some/not all of these kids are also not demonstrating good middos in general and towards less observant kids especially. My kids were pondering whether it is a misuse of sponsor funds to feed them. I suggested that I’ll sponsor that food if they do kiruv for these kids and train them in middos!
My inspiration is an apocryphal story about a gerer chosid coming to the Rebbe and mentioning, inter alia, that he goes to a certain “baal teshuva” shul, although he himself is not a baal teshuva. Rebbe raised his eyes and said – and why are you not?!
As is his minhag, rescuah puts some good thoughts into an objectionable levush.
fake, let’s do some financial planning:
yes, some articles do cost more but what is so expensive in your yomim tovim? an above-average esrog for every boy in the family, kyh?
I agree that public school is not an option for most folk, but an online school for secular subjects should work for families who can guide their kids through that. The benefit would be that your children would be able to earn more per hour and work less hours and spend more time with their kids! I, byh, was able to drive my kids to cheder and back (best time to have a good conversation with them all is when they are buckled up and nowhere to go!). The downside is that they don’t appreciate the effort I put in order to organize life that way, so they are less motivated in their college studies 🙂
So, that would save 20-50% of tuition depending how much your school actually spends on limudei chol. Now, if your schools charge you more to pay for those who chose not to work enough, organize your own small cheder with paying parents. Chayecha kodmim. You paying salary to a rebbe for the kids would be sufficient support of lomdim. That would save another 30%.
Now, use one esrog for the family. Sell expensive yom tov dishes. Maybe do hatarat nedorim (you did not know that food prices would go this high, right?) and switch to cheaper, while still kosher, food. You will not be meikel on being frum, you will be machmir on the mitzva veshinanta levanecha.
For those who are hesitant to not spend their best on their yiddishkeit, see a precedent in Maseches Menachos, somewhere in the 80s: we use best oil for public offerings (only the best – grade alfa, not sure why Gemora is switching to greek here) and for personal menachos – grade beta and maybe even gamma (these are still above average, just not the top shekel) are OK – because we do not obligate tzibur to continuously spend beyond their means.
what is the problem with “secular subjects”? Is it exposure to non-Jewish society or there is something wrong with becoming a doctor or an accountant?
R Kotler had a sister who was enticing him top leave yeshiva and go study math. At the time, it was one or the other. R Salanter’s son became a mathematician and stopped being observant. I am not sure when and how things changed, but Rebetzin Soloveitchik studied in the same University of Jena and was able to find a shidduch from University of Berlin. Maybe after WW1, when Germans were paying tuition for some students as part of reparations. One of my grandmothers used that path.
user > your problem really has nothing to do with early Zionism it has to do with supporting Israels right to exist because you believe it is against the Torah
but his argument is not genuine – as you are saying, there was initial opposition to the anti-religious groups, and Zionists were “closest to home” comparing to communists and bundists, so that opposition created the arguments, and now several generation later these arguments are being taught to children who then post it here.
I don’t this is a problem or even a plague. It is a symptom that there is something wrong with a community supposedly based on idealism, and with those gevirim making decision where to apply their community funds.
It may have been in the past that being well-off was rarely compatible with great middos as pursuit of being well-off was something a tzaddik would not pursue. Things seem to be different now – it is pretty easy to be “well off” by applying oneself to a profession or even a business – with some risk to ruchniyus sure, but not to the degree it was when people travelled for years in pursuit of money and at high risk. Thus, ironically, many people who are “comfortable” (posts about $200k not enough notwithstanding) and do not care about being over-the-top or by whatever excesses others are doing , and then there are those who were persuaded to follow Rashbi, but were not taught the gemora that “many followed his path and did not succeed”
chaim> The yeshiva world for sure was less yeshvish. Lately It became chasdish and more closed off.
R Gershon Kamenetsky characterized Lakewood some decades ago as “litvishe teachers of hasidishe students”. I presume that the students are the rebbeim now.
I think it is kefirah to claim that the velt consists of Satmar Ruv, Brisker Rov and “all other gedolim agree with them”. Saaying it once is ok, but saying it all the times means this is how he sees all Talmidei chachomim.
Not only it is bizayon to “all other gedolim” but also to Satmar and Brisker who would not say so themselves.
You probably heard Reagan’s story about a boy who was selling chickens near a Democratic convention “Democratic chicken .. Democratic chicken $1 only”. Next week, he was standing there “Republican chicken .. Republican chicken $1 only”
Someone called him on the inconsistency. He replied – last week they were just born, this week, their eyes opened.
> a secular anti-Judaism movement started in the 19th century to disconnect the Jewish community from religious Judaism and replace it with a secular new identity, called the “Hebrew” or ”Israeli”.
putting aside weird views of the posters, this sounds like a genuinely held belief. Of course, it does not cover “dati leumi” except thru “guilt by association” but it also projects it’s own fears (of 100+ years ago) on the reality. Early Zs, especially Herzl were not in the position to disconnect Jews from Judaism, he lived in the already totally assimilated society in Vienna, not in Lita. He tried to disassociated Jews from their non-Jewish neighbors whom he found to be dangerous, using the tools he had.
The view above is like blaming a person who jumped into the water to save someone (to borrow on Chofetz Chaim’s metaphor about need to save so many Yidde) that he did not feed them and taught them Torah. He saved their lives so they can do the rest.
Dovid, the person who asks you to check with your Rabbi, did not respond when I asked him to check whether his views are kosher. So, take his criticism lightly.
wise> This frum couple has one house, buys a house in the mountains, buys a house in Lakewood and is currently shopping for an apt in Israel
This is different. They are not throwing away money for silly things, they are investing into houses. Of course, one can be obsessed with that, but one can also be normal about it. He might plan to have his children live in these houses eventually. Ok, I am biased here. But just earning money and then having them is not an aveirah by itself
.Kuvult, interesting, I forgot who said that Kant came to the htreshold of Judaism, but did not cross it. But you can have “mesorah” from Rambam that allows reviewing Mesorah while keeping it. Or, to quote myself, “my daas Torah is against daas Torah, what do I do”?
user> Just looking at all the different kehilot and their minhagim it’s clear that the mesorah of certain things develops and changes over time.
the way mesorahs developed changed over time. It used to be that a place had a mesorah. A Tanna was creating a mesorah in his place. When people started moving around and exchanging information and coming up/get influenced by new ideas, things changed. Book printing and shulchan oruch made things way more uniform. I understand the goal of Mishna Berurah was to create more common halocha for lita-connected Yidden.
In our times, when we have multiple kehilot mixing on the same block things are much more flexible than they were before. You like seuda moschiach – you go to a chassidishe shul even if you were munching on gebrokhts the whole week.
With flexibility, there is pressure to conform. Some in the direction of general society, like equally divided shul instead of classical balcony where women got good view on prospective shidduchim (how many have neck problem because of the new design!?), others – take up every minhag to be seen as “frum” as all shuls around… Those who follow kulos of both B Shammai and b Hillel or chumros of both – you know how they are called …
People who can’t quote all kosher opinions on one narrow topic are now able to explain how Hashem runs the world. what are you qualifications guys? semicha from a hoshuve rav? phd in history? 1600 SAT? please elaborate so that we can trust you on such big issues.
qwerty, I am not equating anyone. I am adding them up.
If you want it is
\inf + 2 * o(1) on the left and \inf + o(1) on the right, which is equal, of course. If it is a machlokes with solid names on both sides, no reason to call names but a good reason to look deeper at what drives the differences. One possibility, as I mentioned, that Maharal is sensitive to emerging shitah that everything can be explained mechanically… I think the time for these ideas has passed already, at least among Jewishly educated, so those here who harbor the same concerns could relax a little and get back to Rambam’s attitude of “acknowledging the truth regardless of the source”.NOYB, > Even assuming the spending on weddings, etc. is foolish, given how many wonderful organizations and institutions there are,
Again, H’V I’ll be counting someone else’s money and diminish their zechus. But my point is – ideally, they should use their best judgment in allocating their funds. I think all would agree that someone good in business would be qualified to allocate for social needs.
Giving for more learning/spiritual needs might sound controversial. In fact, many rabonim are probably annoyed when baalei tzedokah press them how to run the institutions. But we live in the world without recognized leaders, and someone has to decide – if not how to run a mossad, but which mossad should be supported. If you are simply giving to a particular rosh yeshiva, you are still making an implied decision to support this yeshiva and not an another one. So, baalei chesed are making such decisions – so their judgment is important.
So, presuming large weddings are not reasonable (which is subject to debate), this shows that they might make same mistakes in distributing chesed – probably affected by which institution gives them a bigger “honor” or how flashy their booklets are. This is affecting whole communities! So, see if you can help your local gvir.
I do know that some gvirim take their responsibilities seriously. I know one who gave a small building to a mossad to run a specific type of chesed (a very reasonable one, in my estimate), and later found out that the mossad rented out the place and used the funds for general revenues. He sued and got his money back eventually.
NOYB, thanks for a vivid description. A related question, not taking away the zechus, but if the same people who spend silly amounts on silly weddings, howeve justified – and these are same people who do great tzedokah.
BUT, if they show questionable judgment in the simchas, what kind of judgment do they show in their tzedokah? Can we hope that they’ll fulfil what Hashem wants them to do – not just spend money but direct it to the right institutions and right teachers?
Haleivi, so we seem to agree that it is ok to look for reasons, or maybe a better word, for lessons, in the mitzvos as long as we don’t say these are the only reasons.
As to difference of opinion, it is Maharal and you guys against Ramban/m and rescue. Pretty solid machlokes. Maybe we can say that Maharal is stricter becomes he lives at the time when people figured out the elliptical planet paths and this cleared up centuries of obscure Ptolemian spheres so scientists became full of themselves thinking mechanics can explain the whole world, so Maharal is pushing back on them.
you can use them to make noise when demonstrating near the mayor’s residence.
user> I’m telling you that saying that anti Zionism is a requirement to be considered a Torah Jew
It is not just the intolerance itself that it is a problem, but underlying intellectual approach. In order to support this position, these people continue quoting several rabbonim they “chose” to follow (they simple selected rabonim who fit their views, of course) and disregard not just pro-zionist T’Ch (that could be forgiven as a partisan weakness), but even vast number of rabbonim who are not pro-Z but are reasonably tolerant at various levels. So, this is bizayon of majority of Torah in our, and previous, generation.
> quewrty
a side note – there is no easier name that qwerty. You just move your paw to the right. How can one be misspelling that.
I think this double-dipping poster is using language unusual for us, but he is looking at reasonable issues.
It is reasonable to consider “religiosity” and where it is done right or wrong way. As R Berel Wein writes – world is better of when Jews are religious, and non-Jews are not and worse of when it is other way around. Meaning when non-jews are “religious”, they destroy things in the name of their religion, and non-religious Jews “leave no place for other nations” (Beitzah 25b). Similarly, we have a notion that after BM1, both nevuah and avoda zorah left – these ideas are connected.
So, we should definitely continue checking ourselves, as baalei mussar suggest, that we are doing it the right way. As the story of students of R Akiva indicates, it is possible to do it the wrong way .. and so do many CR posts.
questionable coffee, Beitza 25b, 7 lines above wide lines, R Meir
your quote Megilla 25 _a_ is also good and looks like a source of different views. for example, Maharal in Tiferes Isroel ch.6 quotes that and similar gemora in Brochos 33 – where he argues with “rationalists” of his time that mitzvos are gezeros – while disagreeing with Ramban on Dvorim 22:6 who says shiluach haken _is_ to teach us not to be cruel, and also quoting Rambam on the topic.
Maybe, Maharal means that the _main_ source is gezerah arguing with those who insist on _only_ rational explanations. It is an interesting discussion and we can contiue, but at minimum we can see that either position has support in mesorah, maybe with sufficient guardrails.
haleivi> Also, it may be that anything for a medical purpose, not just פיקוח נפש as in your case,
yes, I just overheard someone asking a rov about this, and the answer was “everything medical is permitted”
Haleivi> Hardly would you get a reason of health benefit. … Giving medical justifications usually time out very fast, and then it leaves you with big holes.
I agree that usual suggestions of reasons are about improving personal or societal behavior, but there are sugyos in Gemorah discussing medical advice and behaviors and avoiding physical dangers. At the level probably good enough to be published in medical journals of the time. So, we are not ignoring desire to live long and healthy lives.
So, I would venture to say at minimum that mitzvos are not hurting your medicine. Bris milah does not lead to worse health, and even puncturing the ear of the eved who does not want to go free. Eating kosher will not make you sick and there are no ingredients in pork that we can’t find in other sources. I think there is gemora saying that for every forbidden item there is a permitted one that should satisfy you.
amosak, exactly! refuah shleimah.