Always_Ask_Questions

YYA> A broad consensus of experts i.e. Gedolei Yisroel, say one thing, and ‘AAQ’ says other things. If you have your own ‘experts’, so follow them. We will follow ours.

I think we got to some point here: if we have an important communal issue – can every “religious group” follow their own derech or is there a need for finding a common solution. Let’s for simplicity exclude non-religious Jews, just two groups of religious Jews – and this issue is either joining current IDF or IDF consisting of both groups of Jews.

YYA> They don’t care because they don’t care. If Chareidim wouldn’t have large families ח״ו, do you seriously think the Chilonim would in any way change their lifestyle

Population issue was (is?) part of Zionist discourse. Government would use more resources to subsidize larger families. Maybe even more than now, as now “subsidies for Nth child” is a code word for paying charedim and, thus, controversial. Would this work? I am not sure – it seems that world experience with encouraging more children by money is not working well. But I am explicitly comparing this with Charedim/IDF. If ISrael were to rely on a charedi army right now – that also would not be easy.

YYA> I was questioning the toeles, and even the Halachic permissibility, of posting the name here on YWN or similar forums.

I agree here. Probably, whatever need there is to publicize is achieved by the court publishing the name, so anyone can find the information already just googling for the name. Some write that one of the concerns behind lashon hara prohibition is a need for society to presume and encourage the idea that normative behavior is to be yashar. If we constantly talk about negatives, then you get the attitude of “everyone does it”. In this aspect, it is interesting that you and several others showed concern for this misguided individual, but at the same time many post negatively-framed opinions about people from other groups of Jews, without slight concern for LH. I am sure people will bring up explanations why those groups are “really bad”, but the social consequences are the same – if everyone does it, I can do something too … You see sometimes posts like – they let Arabs do that ….

YYA> It isn’t at all our problem to make a “kosher Israel”. Our job is to keep the Torah as taught by our Rebbeim

sounds like an answer Moshe gave at the sne … well, that also happened only once in history … this is a self-protective instinct to go away from others not just to Torah but even only to the Torah taught “by your Rebbeim” …

It looks like there is a machlokes here between a rational explanation – hair enhances beauty v. kabbalistic where some other values become important

Explanation for the recruiting scheme is that it is an escalating game: first a person is asked to paint a message on a wall; then carry a bag to another place; then make a picture of a public person near his house … at some point, the agent understands that the “innocent” things he did might already take him to prison or at least damage his reputation, so he agrees to the next step … out of 10 such agent, one might move further.

You can see a possible societal impact, as you are saying, as it happens between Russia and Ukraine: both sides recruit or threaten people to go put government offices on fire and such – the damage is not big, but it affects the society.

Another article is saying that Shin Bet is worrying that charedim might be easier targets here because they might not know about such things, so go spread the word.

YYA, thanks for the answers, I think this is the core issue:
> Now let’s talk about “taking advantage of a service that others are providing for you and refuse to participate”.
> There are about half a dozen main arguments why Chareidim, myself included, do not feel any guilt about this whatsoever,
.> The whole point of life is to do רצון השם יתברך ולדבקה בו.
and long poetic elaboration, confirmed by the rabbeim.

i don’t understand. My argument is simple and has nothing to do with chilonim or goyim: you are openly taking advantage of others, making them protect you. This sounds like gezelah, aggravated that this is about taking life risks, not just money. There is no davening or learning that can override such aveiros. Sheretz byado. Rambam is pretty clear on that aspect of teshuva.

Maybe the only of a “half a dozen” arguments that seems to make sense to me is that if government makes arrangements to allow you not to serve, then you got a contract with other Israelis through legit democracy. So even if many are unhappy, it is legit. But we are now talking about possible change in the legal situation. So, if you have a choice between being a gazlan, doing something that you don’t think is allowed and leaving, leaving is the ehrliche Torah answer. I am wondering whether you can present this argument to your Rav and let me know his reply.

Thanks for referring to Rambam. My question is whether anyone comments on this, suggesting that EY is different here.

> Since there is basically wall to wall consensus on this in the entire Chareidi world, so for all of us the issue is closed.

a true scotsman here? Or as one Manhattan lady exclaimed – how did Nixon won the election if I don’t know anyone who voted for him?
Who made “charedi” a synonym to “Torah”? If after we went through various logical aspects of this, the final answer is based on “I am right because I am right”, then it is an indication of a weakness in the position.

YYA: By that definition there may already be a majority. But Chareidim are growing far faster than any of those groups, except for the far right of the RZ who are becoming more Chareidi…

AAQ: “will your eineklah join IDG with kashrus mehadrin, women instructors in beis yaakov skirts and sheitels – but with, say hallel on yom haatzmaut? bli brocha?”

YYA: Women instructors for men, or women in the army altogether, is אביזרייהו דגילוי עריות. With or without sheitels. Kashrus is literally the least of the problems in the IDF. Hallel on Yom Ha’atzamot? For what exactly?

Let’s put Devorah aside … So this seems to be the core question – so we are having or soon will have a kosher majority in Israel. By forging a joint position, this makes it possible to resolve all the issues you are concerned about in a democratic way (supreme court will eventually give up too in the face of a sustained majority). Are charedim capable of joining other kosher Yidden in forming a Torah-true country? According to my theory – yes, as most of the strict boundaries in the charedi community are for protection. So, now protection will not be needed.

The rest is a tactical question of chicken and egg – can charedim start cooperating and help bring kosher Israel faster or will you be waiting for someone else to deal with the problems and will join only when it is safe. Whole Chumash is about being leaders in solving issues, not waiting until someone else will create a perfect environment for you.

coffee,
when the kid R Soloveitchik was sick, his father hesitated to add logs into fire for doctor to see better, so the grandfather, Chaim Brisker, added it himself – machmir on p/n, not meikel on shabbos. Now, R Moshe was modernishe, while R Chaim was not, but, metaphorically, a MO Talmid Chochom survived due to that fire!

your question is good, except that it provokes LH, so maybe we can just discuss general social trends. And it is also loaded as MO may be R Soloveitchik and maybe your local opera lover… Still: MO are more machmir on fulfilling metubah obligations of supporting the wives according to their level; educating their children in umanut; supporting Jews in trouble, whether in Israel or in USSR; everyday middos – safe and ehrliche driving, not driving against “one way” signs; learning Torah lishma; understanding Torah in the context of other info which sometimes leads to better understanding of a sugya; kiddush Hashem in their activities in public sphere; avoiding theft and tax problems in business; mesiras nefesh in paying for day schools and shul membership;

Pick which ones you want me to justify

rebM > EVEN those that agree under some circumstances to seme sore of chareidi devision/s in the army, that is only for those anyway not learning.
Any bachur or yungerman that is learning must be excemp from all and any other kind of service.

This is a pretty reasonable position, with some details open to negotation – who counts as “learning”, and what quality of “learning”.

Mir mashgiach used to plead with the bachurim: I am signing your exemption as toraso umanoso, I never lied in my life, don’t make me into aliar, learn at full strength. What are the current mashgichim telling to you or your children – can someone quote?

YYA> no one is asking Satmar, and Satmar probably wouldn’t answer

maybe this is important. When someone is not involved in an issue – it becomes possible to express extremist opinions. Others, both RZ and charedi, who are involved in politics, have to be responsible.

YYA> anyone will be forced to vote on pain of death?

maybe not death, but in some countries, citizens are obligated to vote and probably need to pay fines if they don’t. We have now people complaining that evil medinah is not paying them enough subsidies as destroying Torah. Anti-voters will say the same when having to pay for not voting.

yankel> rabenu nissim states that every jew has a right to live in EY and
> no secularist and no medina and no AAQ and no somejew can take that right away from him
> no one can tell him to go away and live in judenrein and dangerous places

some ridiculous claims aside that you do not subscribe to, I presume, religious Jews currently live in EY thanks to the zionist efforts (secular, and religious, and supporters from other countries). My only suggestion to go away is only if you consider it impossible to comply with the laws of the land. What was R Nissim’s suggestion – go and refuse pay taxes to Muslim authorities? I presume he suggested to find a way to live there according to their regulations. But if you actually believe that it is not possible – do like Avraham did during the hunger – go to Mitzrayim.

YYA> No one has the right to force bochurim into a situation where

So, you are now abandoning attempts to defend your position and return to proclaiming your inalienable right to be free from Zionist yetzer harah.

Let me try to accept your position for a minute. Then, the erliche way would be to either leave the country or to seek mechilah from those who risk their life to defend yours, while you do not want to/not able to (there is a chabad story about chasidim telling a balgula that they “cannot” help him push the horse out of the mud, and he replying – “you can, you just dont want to”). Try to compensate with some other activities, while admitting that it is never a full compensation – organize volunteer help with army supplies; work in place of soldiers (this might require getting a college degree); babysit their children; visit soldiers in hospitals – do this en masse, and maybe you’ll get some acceptance.

qwerty, I did not read, or was not paying close attention to the reasons behind R Miller’s position. I think ressons you quote are secondary – dressing as Ben Torah as clearly something traditionally inappropriate for a non-Ben Torah; and choice of particular black clothing is a random recent convention. Same for daas Torah – this is all secondary to social truth: many of R Miller’s followers will be lost and get assimilated without these stringencies. That already happened with previous generation of Jews in America (not because they followed R Hirsh or R Soloveitchik, but because they were stum ignorant and with no community support).

So, R Miller’s advice was valid for his listeners. But I wish it were possible to protect people without pretending these measures are core Torah. As a result, the followers now focus on these things as the essence of their Torah. Maybe they should read the rest of R Miller, or maybe some R Soloveitchik also.

Dovid, a good analogy. See OC 317:10 saying that dangerous animals with deadly bite can be killed on shabbos even if they are not pursuing anyone, otherwise – only when chasing.

Also, see an article by R Dovid Sukenik that starts with ” In cases in which leaving snow or ice on the ground would pose an immediate danger, the snow may be removed, as pikuach nefesh overrides Shabbat. This scenario is not very common, however. The scope of this article is limited to cases in which there is no imminent danger. “. I think the Rav does not live in upstate NY …

He also says that there are authorities who say snow is muktze (Pri Megadim) and there are those (majority) that do not. Even for those that say it is muktze, it follows from Taz on bones that one move it away.

Another concern: uvda chol, this will allow doing it for a mitzva – guests, walking to shul, tzaar, financial loss (town ticket?)

There are other concerns – making shabbat like chol – that probably only applies in Anchorage and Gulag – that have snowstorms for the whole season.

Red Adair, a good point. There might be disagreements between poskim on what is allowed.

Note also difference between private and public policy. Privately, if my driveway is too dangerous, maybe I should not shovel, but stay home and have a great shabbos with my family. But, if there is a public path, there will be enough “heroes” including elderly who will venture out and risk their health, so it becomes pikuach nefesh to protect them. Or maybe to put barriers and signs that travel is prohibited 🙂

reb-mutche> Would you have said this when Nazi Germany ‘passed laws’ democratically,

see my reply to YYA, I agree that democracies do not have to be moral. Rome was not. Sdom was not. Just in modern times, democracies seem to be way more moral than anyone else. In the case of Germany, it was a weak short-lived democracy (Weimar Republic) that fell under a dual attack of communists and nazis, enabling nazis to get control under plurality and it stopped being a democracy at some point there.

> The current situation has NOTHING to do with the army needing more soliders.
> There are more non chareidi ‘draft dodgers’ than chareidi draft dodgers.

I think you feel uncomfortable with the situation (unlike some people/posters who simply declare – we don’t care, they are bad people – and you are trying to develop an argument to support your position. I don’t think it works out well. First, according to published numbers up to 80% of draft dodgers right now are charedi. Maybe these numbers are skewed and maybe they were not such a year ago. Even if you are right, it is not a good argument: all other communities provide soldiers, charedim do not. Putting aside a moral argument of why your blood is redder than theirs, there is a practical argument – a small remaining percentage of other communities are people with some problems or valid excuses. Totality of charedi community should include a lot of capable soldiers, even if you make a fair exemption for true learners.

> Almost all politicians now pushing for the draft of yeshiva bachurim, have in the past agreed to exempt yeshiva bachurim in exchange for chareidi support in ther parties.

Don’t confuse process with outcomes. Politicians are there to represent voter interests and find some resolutions to conflicts “so that people do not swallow each other alive” in the words of pirkei avos. They all might have their own personal interests. They come up with some consensus despite that.

Also, look at the history of the issue – there were multiple compromises with expectation that charedi community will come up with some solution, but it did not happen, so politicians, and their voters, have a right to be frustrated from their point of view.

YYA> This has nothing to do with democracy, by the way. The laws of a kingdom or dictatorship are not any less binding, and the laws of a democracy are not more moral when they contradict the Torah, simply because they were legislated through due process.)

This is a good question. We do differentiate between good and bad governments. From Shapur to R Feinstein talking about showing proper respect and participation in a moral country.

Obviously, democracy per se is not a synonym of morality. Rome was a republic and even when currently historians talk about “Roman empire”, Romans at the time continued calling it a republic, with the Emperor being one of the officials… Senate was the symbol of the republic, even when it was subservient. Gemora understood the nature of this imperial republic t in AZ – where Antoninus asks Rebbe whether he should ask Senate to reduce taxes on the Jews or have his son become the next emperor – and he has only one chance to ask …

Still, in our times, empirically, republics and democracies are mostly free countries with some moral foundations. It is based on the fact that these systems are built on already proven political models and on access to general education. Would you agree with that?

> BTW, a Jewish non-Torah government in Eretz Yisroel doesn’t even have דינא דמלכותא status, rather they are considered ליסטים, like Mexican “cartelocracy”.

I heard this opinion. I would appreciate if you could give reasoning and source behind it. My guess it would be either:

1) based on analysis of Israeli government system as it is. We talked about that before, and Israeli system is pretty normal by modern standard and much closer to Europe than to Mexico (both being democracies). Not perfect, but quite reasonable.

2) based on what we expect from the Jewish country. I am very much on board with that, but I don’t see how one could (metaphorically) call Israeli government “goyim” and then expect more from them. This is pure charedi zionism ™. And if we agree to expect more from our brothers, then it should be conditioned on treating them as brothers.

There is also “tragedy of commons” – see people crossing a major street through snow, jumping from one snowbank to another. Nobody would think to bring a shovel and create a path for the tzibbur – unless the government sends a crew. “Nobody in the history of the world washed a rental car” (Lawrence Summers).

R Huna would go around town and check the walls – falling walls were a major danger at the time. If the owner had money, he would make them fix the walls. If the owner could not – R Huna would pay for the repairs. Same thing with snow – if the owner is neglecting it, then tzibus should ask him nicely, maybe stop giving him aliyot. If the owner is out, is elderly, why not send some bochrim to clean it.

I don’t think qwerty any my quotes differ that much. I presume R Miller was familiar with what MO stands for, as he spent a little time at Boston yeshiva where R Soloveitchik was the head, and R Miller’s FIL was also teaching. So, his bottom line is that MO are part of Klal Yisroel but he disagrees with them and considers them a danger to the community he leads.

R Miller has a lot of good insights in human psychology and a lot of his observations are useful to his followers. Interestingly, R Miller himself ventures into science and politics. His advise is “learn a lesson from Viet Nam; if you don’t – Hashem will send next lesson closer to home”. Possibly, he does not want everyone to learn those lessons, just to listen to him learning the lessons. Anyway, I wish students of R Miller listen to his message to them, rather than focus on the boundaries he created to protect them from bad influences.

PS As to quotes, I suggest going to either R Miller’s tapes or books. Recent popular excerpts published on and off-line may be taken out of context or selected with a bias.

rescue> There was no teenagers before the modern era?

right – children were growing up and becoming adults. Sometimes, they would have to work/aka becoming adults while still children.

Not my theory, I am not a historian … you do have Aristotle and others complaining about youth and their lack of experience and thus thinking they know everything, but I think it is about young age in general, not in a sense of a group of people whom we hold not responsible for their behavior.

julius> we oppose the Zionist state

what does it mean?
you don’t want to live there? fine, I think Israel is not USSR, you can get up and leave
you want to live in EY but do not want to live in the Medinah? Go to PA, Gazah, Jordan, Syria and make your case for being a perfect dhimmi.
you want to live in a country but do not agree with the government? It is a democracy, so you can vote for your shitah?
you want to live in a country but do not want to follow the laws created by that democracy? then, you are a criminal in any normal country.
you disagree with the government just because it is run by Jews but not according to halocha? Then, you are a real Zionist – have much higher expectations from Medinah that you would from any other country where you would follow the laws.

re: stem – there is one biological fact that seems to be universal: males have more variability than females. That would mean that the average might be same or not, but there is more males with very low abilities and with very high abilities. So, when you are talking about best CS in the world, there will be way more males even if we resolve all social and family differences. At the same time, there are more men who are the most stupid and winning Darwin awards every year.

from a quick search, seems that R Miller can answer the same question differently, depending maybe on the context:

1) from a secondary source that may be too selective in their quotes:
– What’s wrong with being Modern Orthodox?
– If Modern Orthodox means that you are going to send your daughters to college and your children won’t go into yeshivos to learn how to become talmidei chachomim, so you’re not Orthodox. Because ושננתם לבניך means ודברת בם בשבתך בביתך ובלכתך בדרך ובשכבך ובקומך. That’s Orthodox. So you see that big requirements are necessary to be Orthodox; it requires that your children should be bnei Torah.

[AAQ: he is making a hashkafic point here as this can not be taken literally – as most MO (yes, I am using true scotsman approach here) teach children Torah, but historically we had Amei Haaretz who were Orthodox, although this does not work well in our times]

2) this seems to be authentic from a tape:
A: Absolutely, the Modern Orthodox are our brothers. Absolutely! If a Jew is a שומר מצוות, he tries to keep the mitzvos, then even thought he doesn’t exactly do everything the way we do it, he’s still a brother. If he doesn’t do עבירות, if he’s a שומר מצוות, I don’t care what kind of yarmulke he wears. If he wears a knitted yarmulka or if he wears something else, he’s still my brother. A person who keeps טהרת המשפחה, family purity, he eats kosher, he sends his children to Yeshiva and not public school, he’s a shomer Shabbos, he has mezuzahs on his doors – a person like that is our brother, and don’t make any mistake about it.

Now, of course, that doesn’t mean that he has to be your brother and that you’ll move into the same house as him. It doesn’t mean that you should associate with him. That’s something else all together. You only associate with the best ones because you want to be the best. But when you see him on the street, you have a mitzvah of ואהבת לרעך כמוך – you have a mitzvah to love him. Whenever you see a Jew with a yarmulka, make sure to bless him. Say ברכם טהרם רחמם צדקתך תמיד גמלם.

v32, I don’t think there is “Jew” (Yehudi) in the Torah (Chumash). It appears as a reference to all Jews (rather than someone from the tribe of Yehudah) in Megillah for Mordechai who os from Binyamin, this is where “Jew” starts signifying the whole nation due to 10 tribes disappearing and the remnants mixing up in exile.

Avraham is the first Hebrew “Ivri”, being different from others, passing a boundary/river.

Israel is mostly used as children of Yaakov as a symbol of a nation.

Not sure why it is “Eved ivri” / a Jewish slave, maybe he at the moment is not representing the nation, being a lowly slave.

I am sure there are books and books written about these.

In modern times, maskilim (secularists) tried using Hebrew/ Polish-Russian:Evrey instead of Jew/Zhid to denote national Jews v. religious. Thus, all kind of “Hebrew societies”, “hebrew schools” were created.