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yechiel > “The Torah was created to teach you how to live” Please explain how korbonos, nazir, sotah, slavery etc. jives with the above sentence.
see, for example, Moreh Nevuchim – korbonos are in order to teach and train us to deal with idolatry
nazir – see Gemora that discusses the – rare – case of “proper” Nazir who realized his own narcissism (pardon my Greek)
sotah – explicitly a public procedure to impress people not to do as she did
slavery – see commentaries that a thief is sent to live to a proper family to learn how to live ehrliche life
funny you did not start with parah adumah
qwerty, beautiful example! I know a pro-Z rav, current in chutz, whose S-I-L is yeshivish in Israel, so when Israeli haredim participated in crane=climbing demonstrations, the S-I-L described the beauty of the event asked – Tati, would you have participated. The F-I-L was not sure (really).
Just visiting, right, my kids tried their hand with fake money at a high school class. But an adult could use some modern platform that allows small-scale investments. Otherwise, he might not feel it is “real”.
R Twersky reports that when he a psychological support group for CEO-level people, where many would be habitually late because they are so busy! So they established a rule that the latecomers put $20 in the pushka. And even that small – but real – amount solved the problem.
AAQ> … still, would be nice if you can quote, say, R Feinstein, Chofetz Chaim, Hazon Ish, R Soloveitchik other rabbis of different shitot.
Katan> No, there is no dissenting rabbinical opinion,thanks for your answer.
qwerty quoting> But others need to have more in depth understanding of life in order to be happy in their circumstances
note that he is saying he needs it “to be happy”. He is not saying that he won’t do them otherwise. Some people are ok just following the rules and others are not happy until they figure it out. This is my projection, of course, I am not reading minds of the two-headed poster.
> After you straighten out Hakatan, you can convince Lubavichers that the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach.
funny! and after that come here and help any of us to change one middah and make this place more pleasant …
> “this phone will change your life” “
that might be true in unexpected ways. See Persian/Greek story about “when you cross the river, a great army will be destroyed”
qwerty> Many people have a hard time discussing individuals who were a mixed bag
everyone is a mixed bag, unless it is coming from a nicely printed “biography”. I don’t want to go back to Moshe Rabbeinu. Take Chofetz Chaim as an example – everyone is learning loshon hora sefarim and Mishna Berurah. His students were roshey yeshivos …
He also wrote multiple seforim trying to deal with Yidden becoming non-religious – some books for those who travel, others for those in the army, including short articles about halochos niddah asking literate women to read this to the illiterate ones… These books express tremendous ahavas Yisroel, but, as far as I can tell, his suggestions, such as “observant fathers provide travelling sons with money to buy kosher food and tell them really really well how important keeping kosher is” and “give tzedokah to travelers so that they eat kosher” and “keep mikvas at least somewhat clean so that Polish sanitary commissions do not close them” and “do not send yor daughters to Polish gymnasia” (but where?) did not really address core issues that caused assimilation and loss of observance. This does not mean, H’V, that the Rav failed, but this means that nobody is a navi and knows answers to all problems … and we see it better with time passed. Same with R Avigdor Miller, he addressed issues the best way he could, some better than others.
yuda> first invested in sefarim for the local kollel
great advice. To generalize a little, investing in open markets is attractive because it is a big market and it is just requires a click BUT it is very competitive. You are against all other people in the velt. Hashem put you into a certain place in the world – maybe in order to do something in that place. Someone can play S&P, but you are the one who can do something locally.
for a simple investment example: if you deal (reasonably and smartly) in real estate, you can get better ROI by knowing local trends, checking quality of the building, making your own repairs, renting to reliable people. More sweat but less competition. Similarly, investing in getting a state license that protects your job form competition – whether law or construction – will lead to bigger returns. Getting a good degree. Opening a local store. And as Yuda is saying, of course, investing in mitzvos and helping others. Sometimes, you can combine both – become a heart surgeon and give people a gift of a “lev tov” which is the best according to Pirkei Avos.
user> Suddenly there is this rift between people over a hashkafic detail
right, but in some context, it is a detail, and in others, life & death depend on it. When R Yochanan b Zakkai insisted on meeting Romans against the wishes of kanoyim, this was not a “minor” detail. In our times, there were people who stayed in badlands because of a hashkafa. Supporting medinah or not look optional if the group with a safek is small and state is strong, but how do you ever know what is critical. As invoting – the chance of your vote being decisive is close to zero – but cumulative effect of all decisions is decisive. As Rambam says, consider the world being balanced between tov vera and your next mitzva/aveira can change the balance.
qwerty, in Beitza you’ll be learning soon, from memory, that if your cow catches covid at the end of yontif, Rabbi Akiva says that you are not allowed meduaraita to schecht it right before the sunset, grab a piece of raw meat and eat it so that the schehita will be permitted “letzoerech yomtov” and you are not going to end up with a loss of having cow dying from the virus.
Gemora tries to find kashrus probvlem with such eating but can not. So, they conclude that the only explanation for the issir (meduaraita – sic!) is derech eretz – eating raw meat in a hurry. That is, derech eretz is meduaraita. QED.
Then, gemorah makes a general statement that Jews among nations are like roosters among birds and dogs among animals – have too much hutzpah/azut. So, Hashem gave us mitzvos (kashrus, niddah) so that we learn how to wait before doing what we want. Without it, Jews will not leave a place to other nations to live. This was proven in our times with all the mayhem non-religious Jews caused in the world.
DaMoshe > Where critical thinking comes into play is when there are modern situations that didn’t exist in the past. Critical thinking is needed to figure out how to take the Torah that was learned in the past, and apply it to the present situations.
Right, but it could also be that modern information will give you more insights on the problems that Amoraim were dealing with. Now, gemora is very good at conservative answers. That is, gemora is usually closer to math than to statistics – it has a way of making deductions that it is very sure of, rather than doing “the best guess” based on current information.
Still, we can come up with some issues and maybe teikus that we might know better. For example, we have medical research that does not contradict gemorah but is way more productive in conducting experiments comparing to how Amoraim collected empirical knowledge.
simcha> They believe their position is Ratzon Hashem and what’s best for Klal Yisroel.
putting aside the cursing that some other people also do, they are not demonstrating intellectual honesty that is required for a kosher point of view. They continuously quote several rabonim and pretend that everyone else thinks the same. It may be that some of them read some secondary seforim that provide the “analysis” they are putting out here, so they are not directly responsible for non-sequiturs, just being mislead. This is the best letzad shut I can come up with.
A lot of people, including in CR, are convinced that they know a lot. So, trying a little active investing could serve you well to understand how good you are at thinking. Select some small area, study it, invest for a year – and see if you are better than the experts and index funds. If yes, come back here and give your advice on world events with newly acquired authority!
panim al panim – you change your face but you can’t change your punctuation habits.
questionable coffee> re, there’s a Gemara that goes against that Gemara in ביצה
Beitzah defends the overall approach to mitzvos and that is what I wanted to emphasize so that people should not shut down anyone who wants to contemplate taamei mitzvos. I am not defending a particular interpretation at all.
> , Aaq has selective answering (seeing)
middle A in AAQ stands for asking, not answering. Go to chatgpt for answers.
katan> History has shown how clearly right he
I don’t think so. Compare Jews who moved 80 years ago to EY v. those who stayed in USSR, Poland or moved to South Africa or USA. Those who moved to Israel – most of their grandchildren are alive, Jewish and married Jewish. A number of them know something about Judaism and anyway have Yom Kippur off. Those others did much worse on average.
qwerty,
(not) carrying keys on shabbos, like many other mitzvos, teaches us savlanut and derech eretz. I apologize for quoting same beitza 25 gemora several times, but you guys are asking same question in multiple threads. I think if we all were to internalize these lessons, our discussions here would be of better quality.
phil> But jailing the two soldiers for destroying that statue
it is hard to make a judgment here when halakha meets politics, see example of Bar Kamtza, where “obvious halakha” of a mum on a korban was incorrectly applied. Here, if this action becomes “news” worldwide and endangers Jews from politicians and possible pogroms, then this is close to rodfim/informers than simply jailing. Again, I am not insisting on this view, just saying it is a possible view.
qwerty, as I just mentioned in another thread – look at Beitza 25b
katan> Again, as Rav Elchonon and the others put it, Z
could you do us a favor – you already enlightened us about view of R Elchonon. He is a respected T’Ch surely, student of Chofetz Chaim, tragically killed by Nazis when he stood up for his principles and stayed by his students … still, would be nice if you can quote, say, R Feinstein, Chofetz Chaim, Hazon Ish, R Soloveitchik other rabbis of different shitot.
duvid> Mathematically if all the Torah Jews in Israel would vote, and all the Torah jews of the world come to Israel and vote, they would be hands down the largest and ruling party.
this is very aspirational… but what if all form different parties and start fighting with each other for power and subsidies? if say, “chasidim” and “misnagdim” both get 40% of the vote, are you sure one or both of the groups not join with “hilonim and “aravim” against the other?
Chaim,
I think you fairly describe problems in big business. As I said, I prefer working in small (professional!) business, where I have more control, but I recognize it is not always possible. When amoraim suggested “umanut” that was exactly that – a solitary professional offering his ehrliche services, relying on his advanced skills, whether a shoemaker or a doctor. I don’t know what would be equivalent to “big business” in their times – maybe working for the government, something pirkei avos suggests we should be careful about. Same applies to a large corporation – don’t expect them to care much about you.But again, there is a large difference between doctors doing thing by the book and being in shady businesses where there is yetzer hara for genivah and such. Yes, ideally doctor should be doing it for a mitzva of saving life but it is OK to follow accepted business practices (see Igros Moshe 4:52 where he justifies taking payment from Jewish patients for more than “schar betala”). This is way more ehrliche than “heterim” that you are hinting to regarding not following dina demalchuta.
And I am really disappointed that all your lofty statements about the beauty of the way you are following seem to rely on such “heterim”. All I was suggesting that being in such business creates a possibility of succumbing to yetzer hara, and you finally clarified that it is a certainty …
> Even Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik, way back, admitted that the Arab hate was due to the “State”.
not sure what this means. But according to R Schach Arab hate was there because early Zionists were not religious and Hashem had to prevent their assimilation and made Arabs hate those zionists. I hope you care about those Zionist neshomos as much as r Schach – and Hashem – do.
two ideas:
1) it is entirely possible that two things hold true: 1.1) foundation of Israel is a great thing, 1.2) the way it is celebrated is not right.2) it may be not yom haatzmaut has a problem, but sefirah?
indeed, the most popular version – fist 33 days – clashes with yom tov and month of nissan.ox and donkey are surely better understood than the rest of kilayim – you have exactly two strong animal who work in a different way – at different frequency if you will. “They are not at harmony”. Try pushing a car with someone of a different height and strength and you will see how difficult it is.
?? coffee, I commented just on general attitude towards attempts to explain.
Your bringing up camel wool is cute, but rescue could respond – for example, that camel wool rings a different tone, or that sheep is the focus as this is what people were wearing. I don’t think you can resolve such aggadic discussions – unless you bring your own lesson from your camel.
Imagine that rescue says that the only reason for the mitzvos is to teach Jews savlanut so that we will not be like roosters and communists – and that is the reason for kashrus and niddah? I am sure there be a lot of cock-a-doodle-doo about it – but this is what gemora in Beitza 25 says …
Lamdin > If our commitment is based on understanding, then the moment that understanding is challenged or disproven, the entire foundation of our avodas Hashem becomes shaky.
I think you explain well what is happening. Many early sages had no problem searching for possible reasons for mitzvos. But modernity assaulted religion with rational thoughts about everything. So we are turning to “emunah” and reject logical explanations because they can lead someone astray. Similarly, how Christianity before that lead to us focusing on “doing mitzvos” at the expense of “faith” that was advocated by the oppressors.
But we got to remember what is the difference between humans and animals (see Rambam, intro to Mishna, for example) and that determines what Hashem is expecting from us. Using your mental capacity. It is inconceivable to me (and I think to Rambam if I may speak for him) that our interaction with mitzvos should not involve our intellect.
> But rescue is smarter than אמוראים
This is not a good argument. Sherira gaon explains why tannaim and early amoraim did not write up everything – they leave it for other generations to have credit for developing halochos. So, amoraim wanted us to develop new ideas.
We are benefitting from knowing amoraim and those who came after them, and from science, and from technology that allows us easy access to all the seforim and even ability to search and summarize those seforim. So, surely our generation should be able to develop something new, despite all our shoretcomings.
recue> All kosher animals are gentle in nature and they do not eat other animals.
Same applies to birds. I recall there are classical sources that suggest similar.
There is one thing that bothers me with this approach – by eating non-predators, we are not emulating their gentle nature – we do exactly what the (other) predators do! So, if you feel you are digesting gentleness, so does the wolf. So, then if the wolf gets his goodness from the sheep he consumed, we would be better off eating wolves as they accumulate goodness of 1000s of sheep rather than just one.
rescue > Your not sure. How rich
I am not rich, just “comfortable”. You really can’t imagine that readers are skipping all the personal attacks here while looking for some thoughts of substance?
user> Regardless, by stating that Shaatnez is perfectly logical you’ve actually defended his accusation that you won’t keep a mitzvah unless it makes sense. You are basically saying that you keep Shaatnez because you’ve uncovered the reason behind it and now it makes sense.
qwerty> that static electricity is the reason that the Torah prohibits wearing Shaatnez?
guys, just to respond to someone you feel is not adhering to Jewish tradition, you are piling up arguments without due consideration. It is well within Jewish tradition to contemplate taamei mitzvos. Gemora and rishonim do that. Some of their ideas are profound, some others sound naive from what we know now. It is not impossible that modern knowledge will help us understand something we did not understand before.
Sherirah Gaon explains how some halochos are attributed to later amoraim – saying that there is always room for next generations to discover thing and get credit to their Torah learning. With all the science we have now, surely we should be using it to get credit for our generation! Unless you are sensitive that the next, chatgpt, generation has something for their credit!
Lucky, I understand that you are not interested in various things moeforshim say on the pasuk but in the specific sugya of how to relate to your spouse. It is a great question and many mitzvos are involved here and many conditions for various actions. I posted ^ two authors that wrote books about this, so you may want to read those and then tell us what you found.
On a superficial level, such questions raises eyebrows. We had here a lady who was asking whether it is allowed to patch a kid sometimes. A nice question, but she was zeroing on it a lot. When people starting asking her, it sounded like she was abused by her parents and she was not now applying same technique to her own children and was asking group for approval of her “minor patches”.
feedback from gemini got lost somehow:
Misunderstanding “Frequency”
In physics, “frequency” refers to a measurable oscillation over time (like sound waves or electromagnetic waves).
Fabric Frequency: Textiles do not emit an active electromagnetic frequency in the way a radio or a cell phone does. Any “energy” measured in fabric usually refers to its thermal properties or static electricity. The 5,000 Hz Claim: There is no peer-reviewed scientific data that confirms linen or wool vibrates at 5,000 Hz. Most scientists view this number as a symbolic value rather than a physical measurement.
In short, while the idea of “high-vibe” clothing is a beautiful way to think about choosing natural, sustainable materials, the “5,000 Hz” and “zero frequency” claims are considered pseudoscience and are not backed by modern biophysics.and then it offered another theory that sounds even more interesting than the above:
If you feel “off” wearing linen and wool together, there is a physical explanation: Static Electricity.Linen and wool sit on different ends of the Triboelectric Series.
When they rub together, they create a significant amount of static discharge. This can cause physical discomfort, clinging, and skin irritation, which might be interpreted as a “drop in energy.”phil > always groveling before the non-Jews
You sound like a too-proud zionist, refusing to bow to the powerful goyim, like a cedar, not as an arovah (against Gemora’s advice!).
Jews always had shtadlanim who would deal with governments. In fact, I personally got a psak from a charedi rav when I had an optional opportunity to get some minor benefit from a fake rabbi, known for very bad associations… I did not want to meet him and shake his hand, but the rav said “just show respect to his position, not necessarily him personally”.
sometimes posters outdo themselves – when a katan disagrees with a gadol, he considers quoting the gadol motzi shem ra. You know some people have hutzpa to disagree with a gadol, others more hutzpa to say that gadol might be wrong, others – more hutzpa to skip publishing the views they do not like, but this one beats everyone by accusing those who truthfully quote of an aveirah. Olam hafuch, I think this is called.
Chaim,
you seem to be shy about providing sources of your heterim, could you please answer whether any of them are from R Feinstein, R Soloveitchik or R Yaakov Kamenetsky? (giving you some range here).Chaim> I come from a different cut. i don’t think its such a sin to hire illegal or underage workers. (I know dina dmlachusa. There are heterim..
qok, so why were you dreining my kopf and did not say so in the first place? This is exactly what I was saying – you don’t know how tov unaim is to sit and not rely on those heterim.
> ” nursing homes are just as ehlich as finance”.
got it. So, in plain yinglish, you are saying that nursing homes are not ehrliche, but “ehrliche enough”. As much as other gazlanim.
I think you are pushing this shitah on others in order to justify yourself. Most Drs are not scam. Indeed, maybe only rare ones do not care about payment, as the bloodletter from Taanis, but most are providing fair service for the money.
But if you seriously believe in this, then your only kosher solution is to go in the other direction – work honestly with your hands, earn enough to afford food, and spend the rest of your day teaching your kids (as you don’t want to rely on tzedoka and non-Jewish support).
while looking for taamei mitzvos, how about this one:
iron absorption is inhibited by calcium. Therefore, eating meat in close proximity with milk (or milk later – while meat is processed) leads to iron in meat not being absorbed. In the world where meat was scarce, this probably lead to severe anemia. Might explain why Yaakov’s sons are giants v. Mitzrim.
any scientific or halakhic comments on this?
qwerty> hat reason is because the Torah said so. If one would like to find additional support for Mitzvahs, he may do so, but no one can suggest that “HE” knows
multitudes of scholars, such as Ramban, R Shimshon Hirsh, etc were exploring reasons for mitzvos of various type – scientific, social, psychological. Some of these reasons did not wear well with passage of time. In our times, many indeed like you say try to avoid that in order not to follow secular critics, but there is nothing wrong intrinsically in trying to figure them out. When Shlomo could not figure out red heifer, I am sure it was not because he did not try!
As to how humble one should be when proposing such, this varies and the difference between rishonim and CR posters is obvious.
just when I wanted to compliment someone who spend his time to discuss the sefer and respond,
internets told me that these exact words were posted by, duh, “Joseph” in 2019 and by “Yeruchem Gold” on December 9, 2013.It is also possible that the quote originated with Yehoshua Pfeffer’s book.
I asked LLM to comment on this story and it politely said that the story is “popular in alternative wellness circles”. But then it ventured with it’s own explanation that sounds at least as intriguing!
Why Linen and Wool Actually Don’t Mix
If you feel “off” wearing linen and wool together, there is a physical explanation: Static Electricity.
Linen and wool sit on different ends of the Triboelectric Series.
When they rub together, they create a significant amount of static discharge. This can cause physical discomfort, clinging, and skin irritation, which might be interpreted as a “drop in energy.”
I forward to my kids a photo of Ponevezh yeshiva with Israeli flag with some quotes from Ponevezher rov, and make sure not to daven in shuls that say hallel and shuls that say tachanun, as I am uncomfortable with both.
I thought it is NSWF misspelled, so I did not even open this thread.
Or maybe Israeli Figure Skaters (Women), also not appropriate for most posters here.
Don’t give money to this Tamar, this is not enough of a proof:
You can’t say that someone always lies. Shaarei teshuva are always open.
You can’t say that someone always says the truth. Don’t believe in yourself until yom mita.
You can’t have 2 of them with 1 middah and 2 with opposite. Even Esav had some good middos when raised in a proper home.rescue> you have to stand your ground.
Gemora recommends being an arova rather than a ceder tree – if you “stand tall and stand your ground”, you are at a risk of being broken eventually. Arova survives the wind. Look at books of R Pliskin and R Twersky for a lot of good practical advice on this.
users, you can also read “בּוֹנָיִךְ as people who are productive in leading the nation, rather than simply rejecting any suggestions … similarly, T’Ch merabim shalom b’olam – if someone increases (real, not superficial) sholom, he is a T’Ch.
chaim> I have no illusions that, those that oppose the State or have a Anti-Zionist hashkafa will somehow “see the light”
front page has an article on yom haatzmaaut at Ponevezh, that is old news (although this should impress people even more), but then shows a couple of Belgian charedi Yidden putting the flag up and discusing whether to sing hatikva. I don’t know who they are – lamedvavniks or hidden mafdal agents planting a (literally) false flag …
chaim barcuh > Eim HaBanim Semeicha”
a good point – can we confirm from our resident antiZs that they read this sefer or have good reasons to ignore it? [this is inviting loshon hora, but I think it is l’toeles]
duvid> How does Satmar explain the Chashmonaim?
A good point, and I think many people make this connection. One of recent chanukkas I heard a dvar Torah from a Rav, who is very charedi/lakewood/moetzes but also not denouncing anything, somehow he integrates his “daas Torah” with his own opinions … so, he was, unusually, talking not about candles but about military victory – not in a secular way, but highlighting how moedh in shmone esre is focused on that.
It all sounded traditional, but a little off. I then needled him in private “you sounded like a hidden zionist”. And he replied “why so hidden”? I think events of last several years made many people confront these contradictions or, maybe, confront that politics matters, not just a distraction from limud Torah as it sounds during better times.