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pekak, look up in https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/divide-among-torah-schools-of-thought-yu-riets-vs-the-greater-yeshiva-world
I quoted 19 letters by R Hirsch, starting with
When the external yoke began to grow lighter, and the spirit felt itself freer, then arose a brilliant, respect-inspiring personality, Mendelssohn, which by its commanding influence has led the later development up to this day.And please consider context of this discussion – if your claim that the detractors had issues with specific shitos were true, then Chasam Sofer would have written his own german translation … he did not … and then eastern european rabbis who had quite some time to prepare for the “spirit felt itself freer” based on german experience – were also not fully prepared. So, when Jews in unexpectedly free from Russian oppression Poland & Lithuania in 1920s were exposed to modernity, assimilation was hard to stop.
As an example, R Salanter noticed presence of women in German Torah classes and said that he will be kicked out were he to do same in Lita. And Chofetz Chaim writing both for Polish Jews and earlier for Jews who travelled to America/South Africa (Nidhei Yisroel) has a couple of chapters explaining how bad it is to have relations with non-Jewish women or unmarried women – and calls on travelers to learn halochos related to their travels (such as, how to do netilas yadayim with unusual kelim or water), but says absolutely nothing on how the bochur is supposed to find an ehrliche meidele – nothing about teaching daughters (at least as far as I could find). For Polishe Yidden, he calls “not to send daughters to (non-Jewish) gymnasia” and for those who know how to read to read their illiterate sisters a page or two about halochos of niddah.
Imagine if in our days, all boys went to yeshiva and all girls went to public schools.
Look, I am told that hard-working mods are on summer vacation following the pesach vacation, but can people have some self-control and stop discussing personal lives here? just re-read the posting guidelines and follow them.
doom > It’s their State, they guard their ownership ferociously, and you are here at their mercy.
well, there were simply not enough religious Jews at the knesset when the structure was set up. First, there was a wave of anti-religious sentiment going through the whole Jewish world at the time. Second, many European rabbis did not recommend going to EY at the time. 3rd, it was difficult to go there.
B’H, there are more religious Jews there now, bit if you are not a kibutz-raised BT who possibly met R Kook or a chabad shaliach, but someone who arrived from another country to an already developed medinah, you should start by respecting and acknowledging those who made it possible for you to come comfortably.
qwerty> that this was a decision that he made when he was 29 years old
go, find out what yeshiva he was learning at and don’t send your kids there. Chofetz Chaim reportedly did not shake the hand of a Rav of the town where Trotsky grew up … we blame “reform” for making so many people go astray, but think about Mendelsohn trying to do something about it – by publishing Chumash in vernacular – well before ArtScroll, and influential rabbis denouncing his effort. Now, from the passage of time, I think everyone understands that it was not Mendelsohn’s fault that Jews were assimilating in Germany, and doing nothing was not the right answer.
I don’t think in all these cases, people who did something wrong are innocent, but to a large degree it is the “fault” either of the “times” or even of those self-righteous people who didn’t help or provide discouraging examples.
rebEmes> did whatever they want will share the same fate as those who committed to it and spent their whole life working hard and restraining themselves.
it is in the gemora about a bandit who followed some fancy expensive laddy and then did a teshuva at the last moment and achieved in one moment than what others achieve in their whole life
another look is from R Dessler – in the moshal of sulam Yaakov, everyone wants to climb up the ladder, but everyone starts at a different level and is judged not by the level he ends up, bu where he is relative to his starting point. I hope I am recalling his point correctly.
rebEmes> How do you know they’re not joining the Army simply because there’s a draft and the only other option was to sit and learn the entire day which many are not necessarily interested in doing? That is the main reason that many of them are in the army, they didn’t exactly have a choice.
I was making same supposition – then they’ll be like those soldiers in Russian army whom Chofetz Chaim addresses with so much love and help, and calls communities to assist those soldiers with whatever they need, including kosher food. So, if you are not joining them, you shoud at least find ways to help them and show them that you are their brother.
To your point, there are many people who are both interested in learning and also don’t think it is proper to avoid service when they are needed.
This attitude is not new – it goes back to first pages of Bava Basra where a student asks Rabbi for food during famine and refuses to admit that he is learnt as a condition of getting food “feed me like you would feed a dog” – in order not to benefit from his Torah learning.And as we discussed here before and most people on both sides of the issue agreed that “learning” is a red herring here – those who are not learning
but, in a very modern way, “identify as charedim” also do not go and community stands by them. Appeal to “learning” is to make a better argument and this is an even worse misuse of Torah in my opinion.kuvult> daughters go to Shul to say Kaddish.
some> bla bla blawhy is it ok to disparage something that was and is done, even if some rabbis don’t agree and others (like R Moshe and R Henkin, I believe) not encourage but don’t forbid also.
rebEmes> Serving in the secular Army for example which constantly throws arrows
look at Chofetz Chaim’s Mahaneh Yisroel where he addresses Jewish soldiers in the Russian army with love and teaches them how to deal with the situation. I understand your “circles” do not like positive attitude towards serving in the Army, I get it. But you can really see most of those who do serve as “anusim” – yes, they are willing to join Tzahal but not because they love shooting but because the whole country needs protection and they honorably participate. So, maybe then you can try emulate Chofetz Chaim and provide whatever help you can to those Jews in the army.
somejew> . We paskin today that we do accept Balei Tshiva into Klal Yisroe (but the minhag of many chinich mosdoses is to not let their kids in anyway)
you seem to beat your own records of bizayon. Yes, let’s continue what the commies were doing and keep Jewish children away from Torah.
Hopefully, those kids will find a better place than such mosdos.rebEmes> And you think there are many Jews in Israel like this? Almost none.
not clear what you are saying – that Israeli do not have people who do not understand Yiddishkeit? Plenty. How many chiloni friends do you have? Probably close to zero. And so do other charedim. Just because you bump into each other in the street, does not mean they understand mitzvos.
A rav here told me that he saw R Meir Shapiro on a trip to Canada, he was crossing a wide street, and a local policeman was at awe of this wonderful individual in a strange dress – he just stopped traffic on both sides and let the Rav cross comfortably. If Israeli chilonim were to see Yidden like that, maybe they’ll be also impressed.
> The US is a hopeless story already with the highest intermarriage rate possible.
right. R Soloveitchik in the story above was saying same thing in 1950s, or maybe even earlier, – he was telling Mizrachi 7leaders who were coming to US to fundraise: do you notice that only European-born Jews donate to you, not their children. Yes, Israeli Torah is important but at the end those Jews will stay Jewish, you must invest in Jewish schools for American Jews. So, those who still remain in our times are still important to be saved …
qwerty> Jews who grew up frum and left the faith are not Tinok Shenishba.
this was very typical a couple of generations ago … can we judge those who were swept by the enthusiasm of the times? As king Menashe says to R Ashi after beating him in learning: “if you lived in my time you would be running after me [after A’Z]” … who are OTD in our times? kids who go to modern schools and get involved in inappropriate behaviors and kids who go to very frum schools and are curious to what is out there. The latter ones are clearly suffering from their educators not preparing them to confront those challenges. I’ve seen for example such “frum” OTD girls when in non-Jewish environment starting flirting with passerby drunks, having no concept on what is appropriate in the world.
still, majority of the non-religious Jews in our times have no access to real Jewish education.
maybe we can learn from halochos of saving from rodef:
if A is in danger from B, that C can damage property of D to save A and does not have to pay. [but A himself needs to pay if he damages to save himself].But this is when C needs to do damage, maybe even “just in case”. So if hatzolah member is worrying that he’ll miss the call or just does not want to spend extra time on adjusting volume, you should absorb the damage. If he is totally oblivious to surroundings, then he is doing something improper and you should help him understand him – for his sake, rather than yours. So, maybe you can find a creative way to call his attention? For example, have your friend bring a loud device and then loudly explain to him that he is bothering people, or offer that you can monitor the radio outside while he is davening. At the end, if he does not get the clues, you don’t bother him.
akuperma> the person likely to be saying kaddish in shul is usually saying it for a parent,
primary obligation is on the son if available, so most obligations will be on him.
rebEmes, to illustrate what a random reform dude knows. When I was in college, I once was renting an apartment from such a guy. When he sees me preparing for shabbos, he would ask – “are you going to a temple”? I would answer “Ugh? I am going to the synagogue or shul XX”. After several times, I asked him – why is he insisting calling my shul “temple”. He said – isn’t it the same? I enlightened him that the ‘temple” thingy came out of the idea that we do not need a Temple in Yerushalaim anymore, that we can build local German/American temples”. He became very upset that he was unknowingly supporting this nonsense all his life and stopped saying that. Interestingly, he had no idea what he did not know, and I could not comprehend that he does not know and thought that he was annoying me on purpose.
rebEmes> the entire world knows what kosher is
you really live in a different world than they do and it is hard to relate. Maybe this example: most people know that exercise and healthy food and not smoking and not getting angry is good for your health. How many people do not follow this? Even among doctors, even among yeshiva graduates. Now, imagine someone who is trained in all of that, figured out his calories and knows how to exercise every specific muscle. This person can’t relate to all those lazy people who are still surprised why they are not healthy.
Same with you – you can’t relate to people who grew up where “temple” is a place to sing and listen to a speech, etc. They heard what “kosher” is, but they don’t see people around them who follow this, so it is a theoretical construct of previous century … and maybe when they saw someone observant, they could not relate to them also. This is what R Soloveitchik was writing about in 1950s – he spent a whole night talking with American Jewish students about their questions about religion and philosophy and he says – they had nowhere to turn: reform clergy are not giving them anything deep, and eastern european rabbis don’t have the same language (both literally and figuratively)
Maybe you can relate to this – take posters here who denounce multitudes of observant Jews, repeating the same quotes from same several rabbis and totally ignoring everyone else. How did they get there. Presumably, they had yeshiva education and learned sevorah and kavod Talmidei Chachomim. But somehow, they were unfortunate to be among people or get absorbed by some idea that they reject the basics of yiddishkeit. It is hard to understand, but people’s minds are complicated things.
> thank Him that your family member is not on the other end of the call.
I think OP is not acting out, he is showing respect to the hatzolah here asking how to deal with the issue politely. I am sure if the guy would be on the sports radio, there would be no question and lots of shouting
Anyway, Chofetz Chaim in Nidhei Yisroel, and probably in other places too, mentions that your annual income on Rosh Hashona excludes not only shabbos but also money for teaching your sons Torah.
That is your $200K salary may be predicated on your yeshiva tuition. So, if you ask for discount from the yeshiva – you will simply reduce your annual income! You are just wasting your time!
If you read this Chofetz Chaim literally, then you can still worry about limudei chol and girls’ education. I did not find Chofetz Chaim worry about those. Maybe because he writes to people who went to America 150 years ago and were providing limudei chol at the expense of Torah.
He probably does not want to change the volume from the one he is used to. Maybe give him a pillow so that he can put it over the radio without a need to change the volume. But asking nicely should be OK.
If you want to do something with the famine – go do some science! Tiferes Yisroel writes about chasidei olam who are rewarded by Hashem by improving human lves – Jenner vaccine, Gutenberg press, and Capt Drake for bringing potato to Europe and alleviating famines.
I saw this quote without exact attribution:
R. Moshe Feinstein was asked about the prayer for the state of Israel. He said that it should be modified to indicate a Hopeful Zionist view, instead of a Messianic Zionist approach. The text, as he recommended, is as follows: “Our Father in heaven, the rock of Israel and its redeemer, bless the state of Israel that it become the beginning of the sprouting of our Redemption (she-t’hei reishis tzemihas ge’ulaseinu).”Also, here are 2nd hand quotes found online, please double-check
R. Yosef Eliyahu Henkin was adamantly opposed to the position of the Satmar Rav. He wrote:
I was shocked to read in Chomoteinu of Cheshvan 5719 the slanderous notion that we are required to give our lives (limsor nefesh) to frustrate and resist the efforts of the State of Israel in its struggle against those who would rise up against them. This was stated as a p’sak din based on what we learn that Israel is restricted from rebelling against the nations (Ketubot 111a)… Now all the rabbis who were opposed to Zionism and the establishment of a state took up that position until the time that it was officially founded. Once the state was declared, anyone who plays into the hands of the nations of the world even where there is no imminent danger, is clearly a moseir and rodeif. All the more when there is danger to destruction of life in so doing… Surely, those who recently emigrated must be very weary of the state’s efforts to strip them of their Torah way of life, but to proclaim that anyone who aids the state is a rodeif, well such talk is the severest form of redifa.
Seidei Esh, “Herzl, the Man of Religion”
R. Ovadiah Yosef Yabi’a Omer, vol. 6, Orah Hayim nos. 41-42 about yom haatzmaut
Torah She-be-Al Peh (16, 5734, pp. 19-20), “I wish to emphasize first that the state of Israel and independent Jewish reign in our holy land is of the highest historical and religious significance.”R. Ya’akov Kamenetsky writes in his Emes Le-Ya’akov Al Ha-Torah (Exodus 12:2 n. 17): It is incumbent on us to understand that the establishment of the state of Israel in our day, after the the great destruction and despair that overtook the remnant, and given the desperate and destroyed status of Russian Jewry, God caused the establishment of the state of Israel in order to strengthen the connection to Judaism and to sustain the link between the Jews in exile and the Jewish nation.
Mikhtav Me-Eliyahu, vol. 3 pp. 349-353
R. Eliezer Silver. Every year Silver publicly supported Bond of Israel dinner. Following the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Silver marched in a New York Zionist parade in its support. Silver later participated in a Mizrachi conference. Afterwards, at an Agudah conclave, there were those who desired to disbar Silver. It was reported that Rabbi Kotler opposed this request… [AAQ: I believe they had a personal connection and r Kotler took a train to see R Silber after arriving to US].
significance of whether Israel would win recognition as the Jewish state was so strong that R. Teitz left a radio on in his study over Shabbat, November 28/29, 1947, in order to hear the vote in the United Nations… 1948 essay “A Key [or, An Opening] To Redemption” .. He thought that the founding of the state of Israel eliminated most of the differences between Agudath Israel and Mizrachi, which had centered on the question of whether there should be a Jewish state at all. Once this question had been answered with a fact, the parties should cooperate. R. Teitz met regularly in 1948-49 with a group trying to create a united religious front in Israel, but the two groups elected to remain separate.
PS The alleged quoted from R Chaim is yet another second-hand quote from Chofetz Chaim. The lack of first-hand Chofetz Chaim words is astounding, given amount of writing he left.
On R Hutner quote:
If you read R Hutner’s article in the Observer – it is really a side point to his length exposition showing that Shoah is not appropriate term that indicates exclusivity of the tragedy, while he puts in in the perspective of overall Jewish history. He then mentions that State of Israel (yes, he uses the term) blames European Rabbis for discouraging emigration and he says “we don’t need to discuss that” and brings a counter-point that was quoted here that Zionists alienated Mufti. He then says that it is not the point to blame anyone as we are not Naviim …
I would like to add:
1. Perhaps his listeners at the Agudah convention new same facts he did, but I am not aware that Rabbinical reluctance of emigration was not important
2. I don’t think anyone nowadays seriously think that Mufti had any influence on Nazi YMSh plans.,
3. R Hutner also aptly describes how modern times are different – we were used to prosecutions, but modernity first offered hope of equality and then was reversed back to cruelty. And as examples he brings French revolution, German equality laws and … British Balfur declaration, which he seems to consider a positive thing that British later tried to walk back.A following article by R Elias expands on these points a little. He quotes Zionist leaders who preferred young people only and says that this and not Rabbis who were responsible for Jews not coming to EY before WW2. This at least disagrees with those who say Jews should not have been coming to EY and it also seem to contradict historical facts where there were many communities that did not try to go to EY before it was too late. Maybe R Elias is focusing just on the years during WW2 when danger became clear. But read that Observer yourself.
PS I looked at Empty Wagon after it was quoted here. The book is aptly named! I am sure you picked up the book because it confirmed your ideas.
I would suggest independently verifying the quotes and their full context from the original sources before posting them.Yes, Chofetz Chaim condemned Jewish communists, this is well known. Now, you are saying that Rav Elchonon applies this also to Zionists in EY.
First, I thought the poster just made a silly mistake, but turns out he was actively committing gnevas daas – trying to convince readers that Rav E extension of what Chofetz Chaim said is actually “Chofetz Chaim”. As he kindly expanded on his “quote” (thanks!), it seems that his mind is not settled on what quoting is. As we learn from Megilah that quoting the original author is a big mailah, it is important to work on this middah further!
On Rav E, it is clear, at least from this quote, that he is talking about misyavnim, who are exactly the same as evsekim – and indeed there were groups that were communist or near-communist groups in Israel. There is nothing here about R Kook and such, of course, although I will not be surprised that there are other quotes like that.
What made me thinking – I do not see here, and did not encounter in other places, Chofetz Chaim talking about such groups in EY. We have hispossible quotes that he wanted both Old Yishuv and Rav Kook students learn Mishna Berurah, but it would be very surprising that there are not at least some groups in EY that he did not like. Do we have any such quotes. He did write about “culturual” schools and such in Poland, although also not being too specific. I would be interested to understand how Chofetz Chaim dealt with these issues. Anyone?
chufetz chaim??
RebEmes, maybe you do not have enough imagination how other people live. Someone who is raised in non-religious community may have “heard” something, but does not mean they fully understand the concepts. They may even have heard put it in such context that they do not take it seriously.
Most of those Israelis were not from religious families – Israel on average is becoming more religious, not less, B’H in the last 80 years. So, most of the (still) non-religious might have had kibutznikim grandparents… And even when you are talking about OTDs that grew up in a religious community, it might well be possible that their family and community did not present Yiddishkeit to them in the right way. I am not saying that real reshoyim do not exist, but in this generation most simple people have good excuses for their behavior, ignorance being the primary one.
imho> the girls did not want to marry yeshiva bochurim, (it was a new concept)
Not because it was a new concept, but because they were not ready to provide for the family. I think it is a Slabodka story when a bochur lost a button from his nice suit he was wearing for the shidduch. This one did not work out, so when the next guy went out with the girl, she returned him the button and, not surprisingly, it matched the suit…
Kuvult> How could all these converts to Chasidism change so many minhagim?
Because it wasn’t long after the Kehillas existed & you switched based on where you live.
So coming from that culture joining a Chasidic sect & adopting their Mesorah was really not as difficult or stressful as we would view it today.I am not sure I understand your argument. Putting aside the possibly valid reasons for people interested in chasidism and not happy with the existing communities – this change drastically affected communities, shul attendance, tax collection (most communities had meat & candle tax and suddenly a large part of the town shifted to their own shochet …). It was not “easy as moving to another town”.
IMHO> compromising on yiddishkeit, that is not helpful for our kids, you care about them? You want to spend more time with them? Compromise on your selfish spenditure,
I think we presume here that people here are not buying fancy cars and then complaining about high tuition.
But a genuine question for those who pay tuition and know their school finances: how much of your tuition is paying for reasonable expenses for your kids – teacher’s salary, building and how much is paying for others, admin expenses? would you save significantly if you organized your own small school with one rebbe for say 10-20 students?
Chaim > Boys should be banned from being on that floor.
I’ve seen one billionaire when he was honored in our yeshiva at a dinner, his 20 yo son was serving food to the bochrim at the other side of the table.
asher> minhagim are passed down from father to son unless a “Gadol” or community whom one associates himself with has a different minhag.
you can have your own minhag different from the community, you just need to conform to the community minhag in public.
Minhag is essentially a neder, and changing a minhag is equivalent to hatarat nedorim. It is possible when needed. The most danger to minhagim is that they all get destroyed by uniform approaches when people start following what is popular or what their yeshiva is teaching.
phil> frum women in the medical field wearing pants and wigs. It is a lav in the Torah that women can’t wear mens’ clothing, it is insane that they ignore this halacha and call themselves frum.
Slow on this point. These are not necessarily men’s pants. One of our daughters looked once into wearing pretty tzanuah pants for skiing, and the psak seems to be that it is easier to permit pants for lawyers for work purposes than for leisure event.
R Miller
Rocky, I think the main reason for low self esteem for bochrim that they were from poor families to begin with and were not earning anything while learning. You are right, it was to counter-act the low self-esteem, not to grow gaavah over the regular Yidden. And their dress was respectable by the standard of the time, not “over the top”. So, let’s not blame Alter from Slabodka who was very sensitive to middos and was paying attention that every student grows appropriately for the current excesses and uniformization.
Echo, why wear hat, unless you are a Rav? Why can’t you wear a cap or a turban like you zeide or sabah did? was he not frum enough?
Suit is ok, the whole world wears suits for important meetings.kuvult> Did Jews not move back then? Now you know why. Jews switched from Mesorah to Mesorah based on the Kehilla rules where they lived.
most people did not move. at best, they would travel to sell something. even in modern Israel, it is hopeless to ask a random person in the street about an address in the neighboring town.
fake, I am glad you seem to be on the right derech.
When I was growing my business like you, my motto was like the proverbial Store 24 that was found closed: “we work 24 hours, but not in a row!”. You just need to be flexible to find time for the family – drive them to/fro school, let them do homework near your work. Try finding a partner, rather than employees, there is no substitute for someone who also feels responsible. for the business.
On yomtov, still not sure why it is so taxing – you are taking a vacation, like everyone else in the whole world. You are still eating every day…
On schools, you are scaring me – you are saying that limudei chol are such a minor part of the curriculum. Try to interest your kids. There are tons of online resources, some are more serious – khan academy, melamed academy, IXL, edgenuity, others are more fun – beast academy, kahoot, brainpop, codemonkey (my list is a couple of years old though).
> Torah life and learning began growing in the United States and – despite ongoing Zionist shmad – in E”Y as well
Oy, so modeh es haemes, just calling it “despite”. Karl Popper defined a “theory” as something that is falsifiable. That is, if I claim that temperature tomorrow will be higher than 20C, this will be true or false. But if I say “tomorrow will be a good day” without defining what is “good, and then say that nice rain is a good day for agriculture – then this is not a theory. Rambam’s definition of a navi is similar – negative predictions are not falsifiable, as Hashem can rescind them, but positive ones should be verified.
An example above shows that some opinions or even “nevuos” are no theories – when confronted with reality, the reality is explained away. To show that my position is not correct, maybe you can show an explicit line is Rav Elchonon where he says – yes, zionist rule in EY will allow numerous yeshivos, and the non-religious government will subsidize their learning, kindergarten and housing, and protect them from sonei yisroel – but it still will be a bad thing.
DaMoshe> actually had someone who works in a kiruv organization once say to me, “You need to take that silly colored thing off your head, and replace it with a plain black one!”
You should kiruv this guy too! (is kiruv also a verb?)
When my kids run kiruv events, they sometimes get “frum” kids coming, attracted by fun and food. Some/not all of these kids are also not demonstrating good middos in general and towards less observant kids especially. My kids were pondering whether it is a misuse of sponsor funds to feed them. I suggested that I’ll sponsor that food if they do kiruv for these kids and train them in middos!
My inspiration is an apocryphal story about a gerer chosid coming to the Rebbe and mentioning, inter alia, that he goes to a certain “baal teshuva” shul, although he himself is not a baal teshuva. Rebbe raised his eyes and said – and why are you not?!
As is his minhag, rescuah puts some good thoughts into an objectionable levush.
fake, let’s do some financial planning:
yes, some articles do cost more but what is so expensive in your yomim tovim? an above-average esrog for every boy in the family, kyh?
I agree that public school is not an option for most folk, but an online school for secular subjects should work for families who can guide their kids through that. The benefit would be that your children would be able to earn more per hour and work less hours and spend more time with their kids! I, byh, was able to drive my kids to cheder and back (best time to have a good conversation with them all is when they are buckled up and nowhere to go!). The downside is that they don’t appreciate the effort I put in order to organize life that way, so they are less motivated in their college studies 🙂
So, that would save 20-50% of tuition depending how much your school actually spends on limudei chol. Now, if your schools charge you more to pay for those who chose not to work enough, organize your own small cheder with paying parents. Chayecha kodmim. You paying salary to a rebbe for the kids would be sufficient support of lomdim. That would save another 30%.
Now, use one esrog for the family. Sell expensive yom tov dishes. Maybe do hatarat nedorim (you did not know that food prices would go this high, right?) and switch to cheaper, while still kosher, food. You will not be meikel on being frum, you will be machmir on the mitzva veshinanta levanecha.
For those who are hesitant to not spend their best on their yiddishkeit, see a precedent in Maseches Menachos, somewhere in the 80s: we use best oil for public offerings (only the best – grade alfa, not sure why Gemora is switching to greek here) and for personal menachos – grade beta and maybe even gamma (these are still above average, just not the top shekel) are OK – because we do not obligate tzibur to continuously spend beyond their means.
what is the problem with “secular subjects”? Is it exposure to non-Jewish society or there is something wrong with becoming a doctor or an accountant?
R Kotler had a sister who was enticing him top leave yeshiva and go study math. At the time, it was one or the other. R Salanter’s son became a mathematician and stopped being observant. I am not sure when and how things changed, but Rebetzin Soloveitchik studied in the same University of Jena and was able to find a shidduch from University of Berlin. Maybe after WW1, when Germans were paying tuition for some students as part of reparations. One of my grandmothers used that path.
user > your problem really has nothing to do with early Zionism it has to do with supporting Israels right to exist because you believe it is against the Torah
but his argument is not genuine – as you are saying, there was initial opposition to the anti-religious groups, and Zionists were “closest to home” comparing to communists and bundists, so that opposition created the arguments, and now several generation later these arguments are being taught to children who then post it here.
I don’t this is a problem or even a plague. It is a symptom that there is something wrong with a community supposedly based on idealism, and with those gevirim making decision where to apply their community funds.
It may have been in the past that being well-off was rarely compatible with great middos as pursuit of being well-off was something a tzaddik would not pursue. Things seem to be different now – it is pretty easy to be “well off” by applying oneself to a profession or even a business – with some risk to ruchniyus sure, but not to the degree it was when people travelled for years in pursuit of money and at high risk. Thus, ironically, many people who are “comfortable” (posts about $200k not enough notwithstanding) and do not care about being over-the-top or by whatever excesses others are doing , and then there are those who were persuaded to follow Rashbi, but were not taught the gemora that “many followed his path and did not succeed”
chaim> The yeshiva world for sure was less yeshvish. Lately It became chasdish and more closed off.
R Gershon Kamenetsky characterized Lakewood some decades ago as “litvishe teachers of hasidishe students”. I presume that the students are the rebbeim now.
I think it is kefirah to claim that the velt consists of Satmar Ruv, Brisker Rov and “all other gedolim agree with them”. Saaying it once is ok, but saying it all the times means this is how he sees all Talmidei chachomim.
Not only it is bizayon to “all other gedolim” but also to Satmar and Brisker who would not say so themselves.
You probably heard Reagan’s story about a boy who was selling chickens near a Democratic convention “Democratic chicken .. Democratic chicken $1 only”. Next week, he was standing there “Republican chicken .. Republican chicken $1 only”
Someone called him on the inconsistency. He replied – last week they were just born, this week, their eyes opened.
Dovid, the person who asks you to check with your Rabbi, did not respond when I asked him to check whether his views are kosher. So, take his criticism lightly.
> a secular anti-Judaism movement started in the 19th century to disconnect the Jewish community from religious Judaism and replace it with a secular new identity, called the “Hebrew” or ”Israeli”.
putting aside weird views of the posters, this sounds like a genuinely held belief. Of course, it does not cover “dati leumi” except thru “guilt by association” but it also projects it’s own fears (of 100+ years ago) on the reality. Early Zs, especially Herzl were not in the position to disconnect Jews from Judaism, he lived in the already totally assimilated society in Vienna, not in Lita. He tried to disassociated Jews from their non-Jewish neighbors whom he found to be dangerous, using the tools he had.
The view above is like blaming a person who jumped into the water to save someone (to borrow on Chofetz Chaim’s metaphor about need to save so many Yidde) that he did not feed them and taught them Torah. He saved their lives so they can do the rest.
wise> This frum couple has one house, buys a house in the mountains, buys a house in Lakewood and is currently shopping for an apt in Israel
This is different. They are not throwing away money for silly things, they are investing into houses. Of course, one can be obsessed with that, but one can also be normal about it. He might plan to have his children live in these houses eventually. Ok, I am biased here. But just earning money and then having them is not an aveirah by itself
.Kuvult, interesting, I forgot who said that Kant came to the htreshold of Judaism, but did not cross it. But you can have “mesorah” from Rambam that allows reviewing Mesorah while keeping it. Or, to quote myself, “my daas Torah is against daas Torah, what do I do”?
user> Just looking at all the different kehilot and their minhagim it’s clear that the mesorah of certain things develops and changes over time.
the way mesorahs developed changed over time. It used to be that a place had a mesorah. A Tanna was creating a mesorah in his place. When people started moving around and exchanging information and coming up/get influenced by new ideas, things changed. Book printing and shulchan oruch made things way more uniform. I understand the goal of Mishna Berurah was to create more common halocha for lita-connected Yidden.
In our times, when we have multiple kehilot mixing on the same block things are much more flexible than they were before. You like seuda moschiach – you go to a chassidishe shul even if you were munching on gebrokhts the whole week.
With flexibility, there is pressure to conform. Some in the direction of general society, like equally divided shul instead of classical balcony where women got good view on prospective shidduchim (how many have neck problem because of the new design!?), others – take up every minhag to be seen as “frum” as all shuls around… Those who follow kulos of both B Shammai and b Hillel or chumros of both – you know how they are called …
People who can’t quote all kosher opinions on one narrow topic are now able to explain how Hashem runs the world. what are you qualifications guys? semicha from a hoshuve rav? phd in history? 1600 SAT? please elaborate so that we can trust you on such big issues.