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> One should not be working till they actually need the money especially at a young age when they need to still grow and lay a torah fundation.
I understand why we want young people to learn. Both idealistically and for protecting them from assimilation. But don’t pretend that it is “normal”. Rambam puts it simple – get a job, buy a house, then marry. Starting working only at the moment you actually need money, rather than preparing and progressing through life is opposite of smart.
> You are also advocating like a complete society reset that will never happen.
This is an important point. Jewish society did not live like that until 100 years ago. I think that what historically started as a horaas shaaa, protecting from bad influences, created a lot of successes, and modern democracies provided welfare state that allows people to use (or abuse) it. As a result, you are now talking about “complete society reset” for simple things like working. Practically speaking, you are right, things change gradually – people with limited skills going to diploma-mills and Touro are trying to improve situation. Hopefully, they will not be afraid to teach their own kids some math & english in high school.
> Many of my friends got their accounting degrees at young ages and never used it because by the time they went to work at 28 or 30,
I don’t know many people who did a degree and then went to kollel. But I do know people who first learn, then learn, then go for undergrad, and some even aspire for higher degrees after that. So, it is either wife first juggling the family while the husband is learning, then while the husband is going to medical school, or shidduch resumes with “could you support him for the next 5 years”. Weird.
Chaim, I’ll answer your points in random order:
> As a college grad in a very prestigious profession, I can attest that I can’t afford full tuitionFirst, “full tuition” is not what a normal person is expected to pay. “full tuition” is a starting negotiating point that includes payments for others who are not. I once negotiated for the first time with a yeshiva rep directly instead of disclosing all my income on irs-long forms, as is my minhag. We did not know each other well, so he looked at me. I said 30%? His eyes went dim and sad. I saved him from a heart attack as I immediately clarified – I mean 30% discount, not paying 30% of full… whoever saves one life ….
Of course, college is not a guarantee of anything. But look up unemployment rates and salaries – college-educated ones are better off. And, even more important, your life is more predictable and you don’t worry about things and can live an ehrliche Torah lifestyle. It is interesting that you volunteer as significant part of your compensation questionable write-offs. And I think you define “legal” as “very low chance of being caught”, which is not the same thing. I also have a (professional) business and can write things off, but my yetzer hara is significantly less because I would not need illegal actions to have a livable wage. And it is the nature of business where your added value is in your ability to hustle only, that you live off the margin and it is very tempting to increase margins significantly by playing with IRS or by underfeeding your nursing home residents. When you are paid for your ability to perform heart surgeries, there is way less of yetzer hara to do something shady.
On kollel, you raise an interesting question. The right answer is known from gemora times, of not before – a talmid chacham has a job or a business, spends several hours a day earning a living, and learns the rest of the day. The market gives talmidei chachamim early access to sell on the market so that they don’t waste their time, etc. Seemingly nobody lives this way our days. People either first don’t work and then scramble to earn any way they can, or if they start earning, they work at least 40 hours a week, if not more. I am not sure why we can’t find the middle ground? student loans? lack of proper middos?
what is minhag sochrim on returns? 2 weeks like on amazon?
but presumably this is just a mishap in sending you the wrong printout. So, if you let them know, they’ll send you the right one.
Alternatively, if that other megilah had less errors than yours (estimate from your other one) – then, you can claim that if the printout is correct,
you are entitled to the megillah corresponding to the printout!a freiliche Purim
Issue of loshon hora was legitimately raised here. Loshon horo is not only about damage to a persons involved, but also about maintaining community standards. From this pov, publicizing inappropriate behavior is a right thing to do, not the wrong. So it is not that simple. A good book on the topic with lots of relevant references is R Daniel Feldman False Facts and True Rumors
I don’t think most people believe in just doing mitzvos exactly – otherwise, we would not have so many minhagim and chumros and lev ush and hats of certain color that our ancestors were ashamed to wear … But then if a community can enforce a levush standard, why can’t it enforce a derech eretz standard? Put a shomer near intersection and stop everyone in levush who drives inappropriate. Even easier near the stores – put cherem on everyone who is on the phone while their kids are jumping out of the car into a busy parking lot.
Maybe this is same emergency decree – we are trying to save Yidden from assimilation, te rest of Yiddishkeit can wait. For what? Is moschiach supposed to be enforcing middos or is he waiting for us to do our part?
So, we have two camps here – horrible and “what’s a big deal”. Maybe this is coming from a debate, or two parallel views – are the mitzvos an exact list of thing to perform or is it a list of training exercises to make us into better people. See Ramban on naval b’rshus Torah, for example.
By the first view, as long as S’A does not mention cutting off cars, you are fine. By the second view, if someone learnt a ganze gemora and still does not have basic middos the moment his face is hidden behind the tinted windows – it is very sad and a siman that his learning was for gornisht. I am not sure, if he is pasul l’edus, but surely not fir shidduch.
Phil,
I am not sure what your distinction is. Total non-observance makes people tinokos shenishba and obviously acceptable for kiruv. You are just not comfortable with doing something for these Yidden and looking to build a theory supporting it.Chaim,
if your degree is somewhat underwhelming: no english in HS, then BA from a yeshiva, and 18-month low-level MS, then your ability to do a job and earing potential is lower than someone from a good college. Then, you claim that working in business and getting business perks beats that salary/ Of course …
and even with that – writing off personal car and tuition as a business expense – this is not what my accountant approves …Your impression that “things changed” is based on the fact that larger number of people now go to college, so the lower-level college grad is less impressive than before. As to AI, I agree the future effect is unclear, but, as of now, people who have better education and cognitive skills benefit more from using AI.
On Kiddushin, I agree that profession is not the same as degree – there are professions that do not require degrees, and there are degrees that don’t lead to professions. But, on average, reasonable college degrees lead to respectable ehrliche professions.
As to Kollel, it is personal choice to get oneself into a pretzel to get to marriageable age without having a defined profession, losing out on decades of future learning in comfortable conditions, and pushing the wife to deal with work and children, and children being taught by strangers.
qwerty, sorry for repeating that idea, I just find it very relevant. I agree that people are different, but I was pointing out that the same issue was apparent at the time – combination of glorious past, with current ignorance and dedication.
DaMoshe, could such schools run on a small budget while the emregency is ongoing?
pulling several classes together? classes in homes instead of a separate building?qwerty, it is a mixed bag. I know enough L around, had some kids in their (elementary) schools, met multiple shluchim all over the world. There are crazy ones, and there are excellent ones. You are asking whether the crazy ones bring any benefit? I don’t know. But this dichotomy is not new – R Soloveitchik writes in 1950s, during fridrike rebbe about this – one one hand, brilliance of Alter Rebbe, on the other hand – low quality current publications, on the third hand – dedication of people who travel to all kind of places and find kids to teach. He definitely does not dismiss the latter because of problems in the movement.
phil> Throughout the generations many Jews have left the fold, never has there been this concept of trying to reel them back
seriously? I suggest opening any book of Navi and see them addressing people doing various aveiros. For a random example, see R Gamliel, I think, talking to people distraught by the BM destruction who refuse to drink wine, eat meat, etc – probably early members of some sect or new religion. He is presenting them with a logical argument, trying to change their behavior. Overall, efforts of “teaching Torah” include not only learnng pilpul with young rab onim. but also teaching ignorant ones. See R Akiva teaching kaddish to a son of Roman tax collector.
Say, you have a problem with multi-generational reform Jews or Ivy League grads running with the red flag, but I am sure you can find some small-town ignorami or russian immigrants whom you could help. Did you?
I already mentioned recently Gemora in Avodah Zorah discusses how to travel in presence of potentially dangerous people – which side to keep on, depending on weapon and inclination, and R Akiva’s trick of telling that you are travelling further and then leaving abruptly …
So, to answer the OP – there were always rude people on the road, and you just need to adjust and make sure you are safe, expecting them to do dangerous stuff.
Also, BK might be relevant here – if you carry a load and then stop abruptly. This might correspond to driving that is unsafe. Is there a discussion somewhere about people who overcome or push others on the road?
user, so you think it is normal that Jews behave like that? Middos should be discussed in schools and shuls.
fake> When I do it, it’s because I spaced out
when I do it, I make clear that I am wrong – ask to be let in, le someone pass, waive my hat
rescue is right here. You don’t need to have a full school, just organize 1-2 years together. Presumably, we have parents who went through yeshivas and seminaries, so it should not be a problem for limudei kodesh. One interesting option for secular studies is an online school. Some states have online public schools. I am not sure what NJ offers, but even paid ones are not expensive (and lobby NJ to open public ones if they dont). Kids can then study together, but also separate if they are at different levels.
Chaim,
true all schools everywhere need to rely on donations, but tuition is the starting point …Let’s put two of your questions together – is it worth going to college? can we pay tuition? your answers seem to contradict each other – there are great ways to do without college and, no, we dont have money to pay for schools… there is no same answer for everyone, of course, but college is a proven way to get good pay & benefits at minimal risk for a large swath of middle class. Going into business involves risk, which may be hard for a head of a family and leads to ethical dilemmas in how you treat other people and taxes. Ideally, one should get education and have a solid profession and then go into business – whether in the same profession or otherwise. Then, there is no yetzer hara to do something wrong as you have a profession to fall back on. This is nothing new – it is in gemora Kiddushin 30something + last page.
Touro is a good tool for people who are not fully prepared at high school and can get reasonable education in kosher environment. Online and diploma mill is also a good tool, provided it is not a total scam. I know people who post-lakewood planned to go into health sciences or even MD, they have talent, interest, and support of their hopeful wives – but often lack skills in reading and math to pass exams, so they spend several years, trying to get in.
phil> Doing kiruv today doesnt work. Secular Jews can watch the lighting of the menorah by a Chabad rabbi
this attitude is call chosid shoteh – the one who walks along the river, hears a woman drowning but will not save her out of tzniyut. We have millions of Yidden disappearing, and you suggest doing nothing, while criticizing those who try.
I don’t know the whole story, (and not sure whether I want to know), but there should be more here.
Let’s say it is a great school and suddenly half of parents do not pay. Maybe they all worked under the same dude selling Amway or selling iphones to each other on Amazon. So, what stops the school from adjusting – combining classes – same or sequential years – and finish the year this way? It is more likely that the parents were not happy with something in school.
Overall, our educational system is not fully competitive the way gemorah describes it – where everyone can open a home-based school and neighbors can’t complain. That is, unlimited competition to enable poor parents to afford a teacher. Our schools are vertically integrated – doing multiple classes – and often create niche monopolies by specializing in hashkofa. That is, the parents have very little choice and that choice comes in big decisions and high switching costs.
Alternative ideas:
– encourage small schools that do one or small number of years – so that it is easy to start a new one. Rav Ruderman and Rav Kamenetsky had an insensitive 2nd grade rebbe in their litvish town – but it was one year only. Next year was a different rebbe in a different yard.– tzedokah and subsidies should go directly to parents rather than to schools, so parents should bring money with them to the school of their choice. This is school voucher system that exists in many states.
– maybe money should follow the individual teachers, based on parent feedback. Again, enables teachers to switch schools if they are not rteated well.
Re: Hungary – we need to lower our standards here. Did they have “anti semitic” policies? Sure. Still, they protected their Jewish population to a large degree while being Germany’s allies. Raul Wallenberg also operated there under Hungarian government.
yankel on Poland:
there is a good reason so many Jews moved to Poland (including areas taken later by German/AustroHung/Russian empires).
When Poles were rebelling against Russia, Jews generally supported Poles. In 1918, I think, Poland became independent again and was going through a complicated period trying to figure out how to live on their own + with significant minorities + surrounded by enemies. So did Polish Jews who went through assimilation and participated in left-wing, often anti-Polish activities. When Soviets occupied their part of Poland in 1939, they mostly put Jews on front lines of the new regime interacting with population (as there were more communist Polish Jews than Poles and to directly increase the tensions).
So, there is a lot of very complicated dynamics here, without denying bas things that were happening. Anecdotal direct testimony from a left-wing Yid: his father had a factory in Poland, the factory was moved by Germans, he himself spent WW2 in Soviet camps. When he came back, his Polish workers suggested to work for him for free until he is able to reconstruct the factory. He told them that he learned how USSR operates and has no hopes, and left for EY.
There is also aspect that post-WW2 US history of that period influenced by left-wing Jewish historians who would not investigate obvious Soviet crimes against both Poles and Jews but rather write big books investigating events by Poles. Check out, for example, history of Katyn’, where Soviets killed most of captured officers of Polish army (remarkably, seems nobody agreed to cooperate) – including a lot of Jews, including army chief Rabbi. Germans uncovered and publicized this when they captured that territory, but USSR and allies denied this as “German propaganda”. Russians admitted the truth. I think, in the 1990s. As far as I know, Jewish/Israeli historians never challenged this. If someone is near Yad Vashem asked them to show you the name of Polish Army Chief Rabbi and see what they answer.But to the original question of dan l’tzad zechus, it is very simple – these people are not at fault, they are amei haaretz, talmidim of amei haaretz. They need to learn Toran and mitzvos. Don’t just judge people by levush.
ishpurim> you should be allowed to cut in front of a single driver.
The issue of the rabim is appropriate when you are allowed to do that. For example, a bus stopped at a bus stop – you should not go around it if the bus has more people than your car has. But cutting in front should not be allowed. As someone mentioned, most people don’t do it in a human line – because they see humans in front of them. It is lack of basic sechel to understand that there are people inside the cars you are cutting of.
I asked recently a shailah – whether I should yield to an almost empty bus, when I am driving minivan of kids to school. The rav suggested that yes – there is no respect to a bus driver per se, only when he is carrying rabim. I am thinking that slowing him down when he is on the way to pick up rabim or even having a break still affects the rabbim. Anyway, I value a moment when the kids are a captured audience, and I can model good middos for them. I sometimes suggest them counting how many opportunities we get to let someone in the lane in front of us. This almost lead to a crash recently – my daughter while learning to drive, started abruptly braking on a major road attempting to let someone waiting to merge. Maybe if you popularize this middos approach in your locality, things on your road will improve.
PS For those who insist that these people are on the way to the hospital – put a talles and emergency lights so that people understand that you are driving like that for a reason.
Satmer> Bnei Torah turned over a police car,
I appreciate the rest of your first-hand testimony, but this statement is not true. No Bnei Torah overturned a police car.
Blue,
it seems that you are reading or listening to something that makes you so offended, leading to you considering others so offensive to you that you are now allowed to use any means possible to fight the “evil”. No wonder you notice that even people in your shul are reporting you to police, if I parse your statements correctly. As Satmer suggest, try – for a little while – live ehrliche Jewish life and see if police is still pursuing you. Then come here and report.“I heard from historian” – you may do better, like read books, instead of relying on comments from a tour guide.
Events in Hungary were much different Poland and Ukraine. Hungary remained independent until 1944, when Germany occupied and rapidly deported Jewish population. Poland was at actual war for 6 years, occupied form the beginning by Germany and USSR. How Poles behaved varied, it was a big country, and lots of personal memoirs was colored by whom they were encountering. Those who were in camps naturally encountered those who worked in the camps … add to that, there were Jews. R’L, involved in left-wing politics and collaborated with Soviet part of the occupation. In addition, a lot of post-WW2 narrative was colored by pro-Soviet propaganda that highlighted sins of Poles while hiding Soviet crimes. Read a book “children of Teheran”, if I recall correctly. IT is based on interviews with Jewish children who were in USSR during the war, and then included by Polish General Anders among people they requested from Soviets when forming the army and were evacuated to Iran and then to Palestine. As it is an unfiltered information coming from children, it is one of the few that describes a range of experiences during that war.
For the sake of the argument, every min doesn’t have to be every specie, one type of elephants would be enough.
Blue, without discussing every item, some might be true, some may be your perception, a couple of ideas:
1. Jews lived and live in many places where we are discriminated by some or by government. We traditionally react quietly and rely on individuals to deal with worst problems. Nothing that you describe comes close to that.
2. If you expect more from a Jewish government, and it is reasonable, it makes you a zionist. Nothing wrong with that, just make sure where you stand.
3. A lot of these things, even if they are unfair, could be dealt with by your own behavior. Avoid locations with violent demonstrations and you won’t be confused with them. Here in America, there are whole areas of the city where it is dangerous to go, so we don’t.2) Im trying to explain R Avigdor Miller’s position not try to argue with you
We agree there is precedent to taking on chumras
We agree that taking on chumras can be a good thing
We agree that Rabbi Miller favored chumras over kulasAre you arging in front of a goyishe judge? You bring half of the material here.
I hope you agree (at least many classical sources do, as I quoted)
chumros are also dangerous and need to be administered by a doctor and individually, etc.I presume R Miller saw American Jewry in such a sorry state that he recommended collective taking of a mass dose of antibiotics.
There is a lot of justification for this view, especially in his time and place.
Still, at some point it is time to detox, but the patient forgot the difference between food and rugs. Addiction has to be treated, see R Twersky, not your local drug dealer. I understand I am jumping between metaphors here …coffee > there is a Halacha called Maaris Ayin
I agree. As I mentioned and brought an example, that there are other issues involved here. I am suggesting that this not a case of taava to eat. Maybe, it was a taava to be considered part of the social group, or maybe it was a legit part of trying to have sholom and some unity with the family.
Maaris ayin in these cases depends on lots of factors. for example, R Soloveitchik refused an invitation to a dinner in honor his close friend on an occasion of dedication on a new conservative synagogue. He explains in his nice refusal letter that he can not approve of mixed seating there and this is how his coming to the event will be seen. Is it the same in a case of this family coming to a family event? Clearly not eating most of the stuff there? Maybe it will to the opposite make someone aware that observant Jews do not eat that?
I think the difference here is that you live in a fully observant kahal and do not interact with such Jews, and they do interact. The infleucen goes both ways. There is no one absolute answer here.
coffee > The difference is chareidim conform their life to the Torah (Torah being the עיקר) whereas MO conform the Torah to your life (your life being the עיקר)
I just heard someone on the other side from you formulating how he sees the charedi side: checking if H’V someone somewhere enjoying eating something to osur it.
The issue of chumras is discussed on maseches Nedarim and it is clearly a double-edged sword: sometimes they are good if they help you to improve yourself; and sometimes they are bad as your motivation is off, you reject what Hashem provided you with, etc [in gemora: I ate only once from a karban of a nazir when I saw his motivation was pure].
Here are several ideas how to measure your chumra level:
– when you do a halocha, you can look up Sh’A to see what is right. If you do a chumra, there is no good measuring stick, you depend on your sechel
– for most middos, the middle is the best (Aristotle, Rambam Hilchos Deos). When you have a problem with middos, you should correct yourself. Sometimes, by going to the opposite side of the middah until you train yourself and then you go back to the middle. Ask chacham about middos same way you ask doctor about body sickness.
– when a person needs a chumra, it is his own chumra (see previous). When multitudes do the same chumra [as their leader], it is usually off [I think this is Chasam Sofer]
– if your chumros are overwhelmingly bein Adam ‘Makom, then it is probably wrong. If a person is doing chumros and then fails in basic bein adam l’havero, then he is definitely wrong.
– Bava Kama suggest 3 ways to become a chosid – nezikin/brochos/middos. If you and everyone around you use only one gate and two are standing empty, it is a problem.
coffee > father wants his son to eat with everyone at a sheva brachos at a treif restaurant and the son didnt feel comfortable doing, so the rabbi was finding things that the son can eat.
was it because he wanted to eat fancy food? Or maybe it was a close family where they felt they need to attend. In the second case, whether he decided to eat there or not, this decision is not because he wants to eat, but a decision how to balance several halachic obligations. The father might be more sensitive to the family issue, while the son cares more about kashrus which is easier to comprehend. Hopefully, the rabbi looked at all sides, including the chinuch and where the family stands, and gave them the right advice. And hope they followed that.
I once saw a newly-observant Yid from a choshuve reform family being sad because he wanted to skip the turkey day at his family, where fancy food is served on silver plates … He did not miss the food, just felt bad about offending the family. A wise chabad rabbi advised him to pack his kosher food and paper plates and forks, and cheerfully go there, being the first to joke about this. The guy did not become “modern” out of this.
So, now that R Landau and R Hirsh told bochrim to stay and learn, can charedim organize their own force to catch those who disobey this psak and deal with them in a beis din, before they get caught by civil authorities. This would be a good step towards learning how to run a country.
qwerty, I asked some to check with a halachic authority whether his theory of assigning Jews to different groups, but I think he did not yet tell us what the answer was.
There seem to be halachik reasons against chumras, quoting from secondary sources:
1) R Moshe – do not make chumros that all poor people will not be able to afford. In regards to a proposal to use only new sticks for matza baking
2) Gittin 5 – do not add extra text to Gittin – that is disrespectful to rabbis of previous generations who did not use the chumra. [This seems to be taken care of by claiming that previous rabbis performed same chumros]
3) Da’at Torah(סימן סג סעיף ב) – seems to be your case, qwerty – one should not come to a meal and then refuse to eat something and publicly refuse to eat something there when it is supervised
4) There is a story about R Moshe, I hope I remember it right – he was invited at a simcha to eat at the front table that had yashan. He refused out of fear that people will point out that R Moshe only ate at that table.
DaMoshe, right, this was not just Lakewood, but European attitude the same. Sheitels are at least fashioned as a hiddur mitzva, but black hat and levush is beyond that.
That people are attracted to that is a little weird, but understandable as in your quote “if it keeps you frum”. But, then it becomes the “norm” and is declared the essence of Torah. So, we gained hats, but lost Torah.
PS I believe R Wachtfogel walked casually in a hat in his later years, if my memory is not mistaken. (I was listening to him talking, not looking at his hat, but he was not turned off by my lack of a hat).
Is this a serious problem? If you have people who work hard, earn little, and then feel pressure to spend beyond their means, it is a very serious problem.
People who do not understand it, do not understand that “gelit is tzeit and tzeit is Toirah” – they probably either live in their parents’ basement or have government support.
YYA> There is nothing inherently wrong with a fancy wedding if the mechutanim can afford it.
There are such gezerot against excessive funerals from Mishna times, and was R Shimon b Gamliel who insisted on a modest funeral for himself.
So, it is possible to postulate a public policy based on how the kahal is affected.My chevrusa and I were once kicked out from a class, not because our (quiet) talking affected our learning, it did not, but “because others are following your example and do not understand the material”. It was a great mussar for us…
It seems that the first source of the problems is non-cooperation of some states & cities in arresting “worst ones”. Do we hear of ICE abuse in red states? not so much.
So ICE responded with escalation and arresting who they can. Is it a governmental response to report required numbers? Or is it a deliberate policy to “negotiate” with those states? I don’t know. Anyway, it seems when there are excesses, real or possible, there is public opinion reaction and government reacts to that, so the system works as it should. So far.
But those who honestly have a problem with these cases, rather than making a political point – should go and help ICE arrest criminal aliens and resolve the problem. Maybe organize patrols near police stations, make citizen arrests when someone is let go by local police and call ICE and use your whistle to call ICE.
a non-sequitur of the day – a plant that moved.
YYA> In simple English, the rationale boils down to one line: “If they will anyway have boyfriends/girlfriends [=כרת], better they should have Jewish boyfriends/girlfriends than Goyish ones
I am not sure I can fully summarize Rav’s arguments, I think they change between different teshuvos and speeches. But here is some of it (from 1950s):
– most modern women get various ideas and opportunities in non-Jewish culture and they need to be knowledgeable in Jewish values to understand why they are different and better than alternatives (he is not talking Brooklyn, same way as R Avigdor Miller’s advice is not for those at Harvard).
– some of modern women, those who have/are getting high secular education, are capable and require same level of Jewish learning.
– having separate classes will mean that girls education will be at lower level than boys and the goals needed above will not be achieved.I would note that Rav presumes that American Jews will be involved in American culture and education as a given. I am not sure to what degree he approves of it for “masses”, but he simply takes it as a fact. For example, he criticizes Mizrachi who come to US to only fundraise for Israeli education – mostly from first generation Americans. He says – think that Israeli Jews will get something anyway, but second-generation American Jews might disappear (and not donate to Mizrachi). He says I was able to open the high school, I am not asking you for money, but I am stunned that none of you offered to help.
On the subpar Jewish education for girls, I can see the argument at the time. I think it is only partially true today. We seemingly have lots of schools for girls. And as a parent, I don’t want my daughters to focus on what the boys are learning (and, to be truthful, same goes for sons :). And YU has separate college for girls, and so do many MO schools. At the same time, those girl schools often make girls incurious and spend time to indoctrination in skirt length and not using cellphones (that they are all using). I know it is important, but I also know that they love talking at home about actual learning.
So, to summarize, I would characterize Rav’s push for co-ed learning as haraas shaah, similar to Chazon Ish’s hiding in a desert. None of my kids went to co-ed so far, not counting online colleges, and this does not contradict my respect of the Rav.coffee > I want to post a retraction
oy, I hope it is not the dental pain that gets you, and you will feel better soon and find your former reassured self again!> I think they are few and far between though and think they’re more OOT than in the city
maybe. I don’t know the City well (and I don’t think outer boroughs are considered the “City”, are they?). I had a friend who retired and moved closer to the “city” and then when we were shmoozing during his visit here, he lamented: there are hundreds of people in my shul, but nobody to talk about something interesting, they are all business … so, maybe we vehemently agreed to begin with, just using different categories.
YYA> Among Sephardim who went to Ashkenazi institutes of higher Jewish learning, I believe there are more in Yeshivish places than in YU style places.
I think many of them, including charedi T’Ch are more accepting of non-charedi positions on various social issues. As you probably know a joke about a lady who sat down near a rov on a bus to annoy him and caused a scene. Next day, she sat down near Sephardi rav and he paid no attention to her. When questioned why he did not upheld kavod Torah, he humbly responded: Hu rav, ani – chacham.
I once heard a sephardi ashk-yeshivish-educated moetses-following rav giving a chanuka dvar Torah, who never ever quoted anyone RZ, highlighting military aspect of Chanuka. I needled him (in private) “you sounded like a hidden Zionist”, to which he answered, to my amazement: “why so hidden”. I was not quick to answer – because you said this only in private …
YYA:
on Rambam> he wasn’t “RZ” because Zionism wasn’t invented yet… He wasn’t “MO”I think he was MO at his time. As one Chabad-Charedi rav/engineer responded to my question about Rambam’s relations to various philosophies, he answered succinctly: Rambam was not afarid to be mode alhaemes regardless of the source.
> To become a doctor 800 years ago, there was no need to go to college or medical school … Let alone gratuitous courses in kefirah … Rambam sat and learned full time and was supported fully by his brother [contrary to how people misinterpret his shittah…]
I agree, stam being a doctor was a good parnosah for a medium-educated person at the time. Still, Rambam was working for senior leaders in Egypt, so presumably he was better than someone getting a degree from a diploma-mill. But, his other work in astronomy and philosophy shows great familiarity with “modern” (for his time) works. Note that between Spain and Egypt, he was in Fes. Modern muslim apologists call Fes medrasa “first university”, preceding and possibly providing an example to Sorbonne and Oxford, as it integrated religious and scientific studies. You had to be muslim to attend. And later on in Egypt Rambam was accused (and acquitted) of being a “former Muslim” (a death-penalty crime) by someone who knew him in Fes. Whatever the circumstances. clearly Rambam was hanging out around people who learned in the medrasa, in addition to his previous studies in Fes.
On his brother’s support: I personally have no problems with people learning supported by their family or other willing donors. Kol hakavod. Especially if they are at Rambam’s level. “Rambam and I”, if I may use this phrase, have problem with those who impose support of them on others. Rambam does not approve relying on general tzedokah (and kal vehomer on non-Jewish one). I presume he would not favor using government funds that are designated for poor by staying or pretending to be poor. Not sure what he would think about people who strive to learn without clear results. He was clearly sympathetic – his Mishna Torah is for not-top-learners, but presumably for those who work & have less time to learn. But I think it is a fascinating way to analyze situations from Rambam’s POV. Not because he is “better”, but because his rationalism makes it possible to consider what he would do in our days.
qwerty> something that a frum Jew did that totally turned her off from the religion.
There is a story about R Eliezer Silber visiting Yidden just freed from Nazi camps. One of them said that he lost his emunah after observing someone “frum” who smuggled a siddur in the camp – and then every day lent it to others and taking their meager food rations as payment. Rav challenged him – this is one person, but what about hundreds of people who borrowed his siddur in order to daven for a day who gave away their last food?
Radin students saw a reference to a sefer in Mishna Berurah but could not find a sefer in the yeshiva, so they thought Chofetz Chaim kept it at home and went to him to ask to read it. He answered hat he did not own the book, but knows someone in another town, an hour away on a train, where they can find the sefer. When students were surprised that Chofetz Chaim had to borrow the sefer he obviously learned, he explained: sefer costs gelt, and gelt is tzait (of working for it), and tzait is Toirah …
So, presumably people who spend on unnecessary things either do not value their Toirah or learned how to live at someone else’s gelt, so they think they are better of than Chofetz Chaim who did not figure it out.
YYA> Even if I don’t know what exactly ‘Chareidi’ is,
You keep harping on the “charedi” self-identification. I don’t really care. Was Rambam charedi? I asked here before – and would he be now?
When I started wondering whether Rambam in our times will go to Lakewood or to MIT first (nobody answered here), someone said – to Lakewood, because after MIT, he will not be admitted to Lakewood.I gave an example of two T’Ch who mutually respected each other, disagreed on a number of issues, and also were both connected with multiple other respected rabbis, with whom both sometimes agreed, sometimes disagreed. Let’s say, you are a pashute kosher Jews totally disconnected from this internal football, say, a Persian or a Teimani, landing in NYC. You know what Torah is, you can read it by heart, you know Rambam and S’A … So, you listen to these two T’Ch. Do you have a way to select which one of them is the “real Torah”, or maybe you decide that both have value, and you show both a good Sephardishe respect.
For example, on co-ed high schools – R Soloveitchik writes certain rationales for this. He was certainly aware of all possible objections. In fact, his first response from a shaila from NY board in 1950s was that he is not going to respond to such a provocative topic without an assurance that someone needs it. Only when they wrote back that they bind themselves to follow his psak, he writes a full answer. In truth, some of his rationales are somewhat outdated and may not apply in our times – and a lot of serious MO schools are indeed not co-ed any more.
Ok, I’ll drop silly abbreviations as you seem to be in pain as it is … Obviously, people meet diffferent people. In my environment, MOs with whom I learn, and have kiddush too, are engineers. professors, doctors, who are mostly respected in their fields and who are pretty much cut out for learning and they engage in that learning despite living busy life. A rav is sometimes passing our group in beis midrash gets to quickly answer (yes, no, dont know) accumulated questions from the maggid shiur (engineer) with full respect. Our class does not have to rely on Rashi for old-french rendering of greek turn, the professor explains greek terms directly, and the subtle details of sanhedrin rulings are highlighted by comparison with 19th century US supreme court cases, when appropriate. I sometimes learned already the same sugya in a more traditional environment, and the discussion is always interesting.
Re: Avigdor Miller. He is indeed probably concerned primarily about separating his students from less observant drinkers. But, his opposition to MO is more principled. I presume he knew well what he was talking about based on his early learning in Boston. And his writings about modern life and science address those issues. And while he has good insights into these issues, he is not always at the level of educated professionals in these discussions.
rescue> Try walking into a store in one of our communities not dressed in the latest outfits. People won’t treat you like a human being.
I walked into the Bobove shul on shabbos some decades ago, dressed in a decidedly modern suit. When the Rebbe Z’L walked in briskly, he made a beeline from the row of shtreimels waiting to greet him to shake my hand.
Chofetz Chaim was against people reading or selling newspapers – that were distributing things that were, or were becoming, publicly known at that point. I don’t think he gave reshus to distribute those.