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yankel, thanks for history recap, you on a solid ground (many people when discussing R Ch’O psak think that they were expecting Nazi invasion rather than soviet in Vino).
Still, I am referring to his teshuva to a shailah about exit visas for young v older Rabbis – possibly pre- or immediately after Soviet invasion of Lithunia in June 1940. I am not sure whether this was in advance of the invasion maybe in May-June 1940 (that was my understanding from reading about it many years ago) or immediately after – Sugihara started giving his visas mid-July and R Ch’O was niftar early August.
A couple of years ago, chevra here discussed what will be the effect of rank voting. It seems that the partial rank-voting of NYC gets the worse result –
it encourages extremism during primary (and this election proved it), but
lack of rank voting in general effectively makes it almost impossible to out-vote the winner of D primary.qwerty> Their religion is a dangerous distortion of Judaism.
I am still not 100% sure that things changed. As I quoted, R Soloveitchik saw the same multi-facted picture: solid original learning (he referred to Alter Rebbe and not anyone after, maybe he would have included the Last Rebbe also?) v. ignorant adherents v. great dedication to helping other Yidden.
Yes, some of the distortions seem to be greater now – but maybe part of that is due to impact of all those Jews who were returned.
And, again, if you look at groups that separate themselves from klka Yisrael and only consider what is important to protects their kehilos and heders – is this better or worse than a distorted view of one’s late rebbe? If it seems better, maybe it is only because we got used to that. But if you look objectively, maybe not.
RebE, good to hear from you! A git yohr! The problem here is that Adam could surely eat the fruit on Shabbos, but he would not be able to harvest it from the tree!
In fact, this explains why Hava & Nahash are talking touching the tree – a clear midrabonon on Shabbos.
In fact, the bigger problem is that Adam would not have been able to marry on Shabbos. We would not want him to stay single forever, right – first, he would be a half-a-man, effectively reducing humanity by 50%, but also we would all be bastards then.
So, he had to be married before Shabbos. And the rest was, as they say, “history”. What else do you expect from the isha?!
Horayos ~13 illustrates why a proper segula l’parnasa is attending college and working overtime.
Gemora discusses various segulos – Rosh Hashona and also for and against success in learning and what causes forgetting (walking between camels and ladies, separately, etc). After all segulos are discussed, we suddenly have an advice from a father to the son: if you want to be successful in learning (i.e. segula for learning), you should
1) learn the mishnah before going to the class
2) watch carefully at Rebbe’s mouth
3) learn near a riverThis seems to be a finale for the segula discussion – do hishtadlus instead of watching how the candle burns, although from a quick look, I do not see commentaries saying that.
common, it took you 10 years after Shlomo died to get rid of the bad habit?
AAQ > Rambam considering any such error fatal, while sefer haikkarim allowing for mistakes.
yankel> where is sefer ikarim ‘lenient’ about mistakes in core beliefs ?Contrast:
Rambam MT Hilkhos Teshuvah 6:3 – Hashem hardens heart of Pharaoh as the result of his previous sins and he has no free will any more
v.
Sefer Ha-Ikkarim 4:25 where R Albo goes at length describing how Hashem is always open to teshuva, and even with Pharaoh, he “hardens his heart” in the sense of adjusting his values so that he still has a free choice.Gil Student quotes R Soloveichik The Lord is Righteous in All His Ways, p. 274 – whether Nazis can repent like Nevuzaradan did (Gittin 57), even as they were clearly worse than that. He quotes same Rambam 3:14 that teshuva is all powerful …
yankel > there was no ‘psak’ by r ch’o about shanghai at any time
> by the way rch’o was niftar just weeks after the soviets marched into vilnaI think this issue relates to the shailah that I mention above – preference for older v younger rabbonim. You might be right that technically, after the Rav was niftar, the DT would have transferred to a living Rav. Presumably, they did not “go” to REW then, or they would have stayed in Mir.
I am usually skeptical about some of the criticism in this thread, in a sense that criticism might be valid but not the main thing about the movement, but I was recently shocked when a (young) person gave me a dvar Torah saying, looking me in the eyes, it is “from the _current_ L Rebbe”. I was so taken aback that I did not respond as I should have: “thanks for a nice drash from the Rebbe ZT’L”. So, maybe the problem got bigger than I felt.
Harav Shalom Ber Sorotzkin makes an unusual comparison of the matzav to USSR experience. Usually, people who try to appeal to raw emotions, just go for Nazi comparison – not because Soviets were better than Nazis, but most emotional people don’t think about USSR whether early or late times, while Nazis are mentioned more often.
So, I presume HaRav chose his words judiciously. Maybe, he was affected by his family’s history in Belorussia and even Russia itself up to 1930s …
Maybe, he also was so much involved in helping Russian Jews to become more religious that he feels their pain and is afraid that secular Israelis are moving in the same direction as our lost russian brothers. Please give me more info on these outreach activities that HaRav was involved in so that I can understand why he thinks he can make such a comparison.nisht, you are being passive aggressive – if you disagree with something or have a comment, could you please say so? I can’t read your mind.
I presume mishpucha called the Rav Nosson, but the title of the book says “Nathan”.We might be better off discussing any of the stories he researched over hundreds of pages, many in fine print instead of trading silliness. For example, R Yaakov had a 2nd grade teacher in his Litvish shetl. The class was in teacher’s yard/house. Once Yaakov was late. When teacher asked, he explained that there was a bris and something happened with the knife, and his father sent him to pick up a knife. The teacher did not believe the story and sent Yaakov home. Late in life, R Yaakov was talking with his classmate – R Ruderman and they were wondering what happened with their other friends, who seemingly did not become talmidei chachomim. R Yaakov suggested that this might have been this 2nd grade rebbe’s fault – as R Yaakov remembered the pain of being considered a liar (even as there was no history of that), so maybe others were alienated by this teacher.
ujm > In 1970, the NK held a public protest alongside the PLO outside the United Nations. And this was the NK that the Steipler issued extremely high praise, referring to the Neteurei Karta as his friends and colleagues and wishing them long lives and good days; and saying that he loves every single one of them.
what is the year of the letter? From a quick look, it is one of the earlier elections, maybe 1950s.
Nisht, Sorry, I misspoke – R Natan Kamenetsky. Everything else stands.
Avi> one of the rabbanim said that that was before daat Torah was invented.
R Zelig Epstein. As I heard it, he used subtler language “before daas Torah” without the harsh word “invented”. In reality, R Chaim Ozer position seemed to be more nuanced – he wanted older Rabbonim to have a priority for visas, as they would be more useful both for the ones who are left behind and to Americans themselves. I think we can see the wisdom of that from history – a small number of survivors started revival of Torah in US.
Interesting also that you put R Soloveitchik and R Chaim Ozer in the same paragraph. When R Soloveitchik was studying philosophy in Berlin, he would visit R Chaim Ozer during summer and present him with his hidushim developed during the year. R Chaim Ozer, who was famous also for his library, would nod and find a sefer where that “hidush” was already discussed.
comparing people who refuse to go to the army and also have breaks with actual hostages seems distasteful to me. Maybe they should ask opinion of the released hostages before making such statements.
Chaim, so start with opendns, it is free.
yankel> emrei emet talking to REW
I am not questioning R Elchonon’s mailos at all.
Avi> The Baal haTanya also took this position (he also held that it is bittul Torah of the rav) and Rav Lichtenstein has an essay, availavle online, he unauthorized translation is called “If There Is No ‘Da’at,’ How Can We Have Leadership?” The Hebrew original is אם אין דעת, מנהיגות מניין.
First, thanks for the reference to the essay. Very thought provoking. Not sure what Alter Rebbe has to do with the topic, but he took an extreme political pro-Russian position during Napoleonic wars – contrary to almost all other misnagdim and chassidim, and he passed away while running away from Napoleon. The reasons being a mixture of seeing a danger of haskalah (as if it was possible to escape it, but delaying could have helped) and real-politik – as Chabad was further in Russia than most other groups, so presumed that his chasidim will be under the czar after the war anywas, so it is better to cooperate.
Avi > Rav Soloveichik did not take a position on demonstrations. When asked, he told questioners to ask a Kremlinologist. In general, his position was that rabbanim should not answer questions that are the realm of secular experts.
Not a contradiction here. My source is memoirs by one of the students involved. They first asked R Feinstein, R Tetz, Lubavitcher Rebbe – they all answered negatively from their belief that (1) afraid that their quiet activities for soviet Jews will be disrupted (2) that students are putting their lives in danger from Soviet agents (we are talking 1960s!). When they approached R Soloveitchik, he indeed followed the approach you described – he asked his trusted contacts in Israeli government and they also suggested negative. So, batting 0:4 in daas Toirah, students started what they started. Later on, this student while driving R Soloveitchik casually asked him – we are doing things you did not approve of, but you did not reprimind us. Rav responded: I was mislead. I asked Israelis “what is best for Soviet Jews” and they responded based on what is based for them (presumably, before 1967, when Israel tried to re-establish better relations with USSR). Halakha of pikuach nefesh is – you do what is best for the person in danger, not for others.
yankel> where is sefer ikarim ‘lenient’ about mistakes in core beliefs ?
as I said, I saw it in a secondary source. It has something to do with how to relate to people who stumbled in some major philosophical issues – as was typical at his times. To illustrate the times: R Albo participated in an official debate with a converted Jew … that convert used to be a rav and his teacher before he converted … and who previously participated on the Jewish side in a similar debate against a previous convert …
somejew > The Steipler says that he leans to say that voting is a “mitzvuh rabbuh” and not (technically) usser, yet nonetheless there is vald place for kanoyus like NK (and they should continue not voting and disregard his “mitzvuh rabbuh”).
I was reading the letter slightly different. Not sure, whether one – or both – of us is trying to put our own meaning into subtle words of Steipler. Presumably, the recipient of the letter knew how to understand these words. But my reading is that Steipler is not “leaning” but rather strongly says that it is the right thing to do and opposition is mistaken, even if well meaning. Yes, he sort of says, I do not want you to change your position, but he does not say explicitly – “I am ok with you not voting”. I am reading this as a subtle tochacha (we should all learn!) – yes, I respect your position, but if you respect my arguments, you will have to go and vote. The last paragraph might be the minimal ask – even if you will not be able to vote yourself, at least stop spreading loshon horoh that might prevent others from voting. Again, said subtly, but pretty direct if translated from loshon Steipler into loshon CR.
Rocky > Mishpacha claims that Rav Elyashiv did not hear their side of the story before announcing a ban. No gadol would do such a thing.
Rocky, I do not read either of Mishpohos, but I listened to a detailed lecture of R Gershon Kamenetsky Z’L detailing his interactions with R Elyashiv about R Gershon’s book about his father – and the only conclusion is that R Eliyashiv did in that case (maybe when he was elderly and the issue was time sensitive) relied on people he trusted. At this point, there are several non-banned respected books that quote R Gershon’s book (that contains high quality research) in length and acknowledge his contribution.
yankel > [undisputed list of Rabonim who respected R Kook] .. rav kook was controversial – yes
katan> But all of that doesn’t change what the gedolim held of him, as mentioned above. The Chazon Ish also banned the sale of Rabbi Kook’s books, which included at least Rabbi Kook’s “hashkafa” books, if not also the others.you guys repeat your positions as if they are compete with each other – they do not! You need to come to some joint conclusion! Can we agree that R Kook was controversial and that some approved of him and some did not? What else can be said here?
Avram > He’s not talking about ads that are blocked by ad blocking software…
You may be right here. While it is hard to pin-point his exact issues and legit internet needs, openDNS is a good free solution for the computer – you can just whitelist the sites you need.
I thought, openDNS would not work on a cellular network, but gemini tells me it is possible. Maybe someone can investigate this:
You can use OpenDNS on a cellular network by installing a DNS changer app on Android or using the “Private DNS” setting on iOS and Android devices that support it. While some cellular carriers might block the standard OpenDNS servers, a DNS changer app or using a paid service like Cisco Umbrella Prosumer can override this and route your device’s DNS requests to OpenDNS or another provider.Avram> one should not sacrifice his children.
Hard to argue about that, as there is a posuk about it! But we were not talking about children online, we were talking about an adult. I hope you are not suspecting him of watching videos enticing moloch practices!
Got NY public library (virtually), voter registration info is on the front page – until Oct 25.
When you argue how NK behaved during “Steipler lifetime”, you need to see – what year was the letter written? Steipler was writing about elections early on – I see one in 1955.
Seemingly Steipler wrote way more about elections than just this one letter. Maybe someone could look up more on his thinking?
here is what I see in secondary sources:
Kreinah D’Igresa letter 739: “I don’t understand the position of the Satmar Rebbe, though I agree with all that was written in his book…nonetheless the people have returned, it is a fact that the people have come back, it is now a reality and therefore whether it was done correctly doesn’t matter, thus now one must vote in order to ensure the safety of Klal Yisrael.
…
all throughout Jewish history Jews were part of the Gentile governments in Europe and of course if one could be in a goyish government he can be in the Jewish government, but nonetheless says the Steipler that one must be very careful that being part of parliament or government is not about getting money, even for the Jews, rather it is about upholding Jewish law.Chaim, also, use your home computer to take some advanced classes and get a better paying job.
Chaim,
buying used phones is smart. Same w/ computers – a modern computer can really work for many years if you are not kicking it too much.are you an uber driver or something like that? For many sedentary occupations, a computer would be enough. If you do need a device, maybe make it non-private. for example, when you come home, put into a charger in the living room and let everyone in the family use it while you are in shul or learning.
This should give you some lack of privacy – especially if you have savvy teens in the house. Or even you can plug it at home via usb as a drive to the home computer so that everyone can ready your phone drive from the computer when you are at home.ZSK, I don’t think you can write off REW on disinformation. It is one thing when we are talking, say, elderly R Eliyashev being mis-informed about one book by R Gershon Kamenetsky. Maybe, maybe, you can have a similar excuse for R Soloveitchik on the question of demonstration for Soviet Jews (“mislead” by Israeli gov that it is better to be quiet) – yes, this is an issue of great public importance, but not the main focus for American Jews at a time (and RJBS writes in other places “I am not a politician or from a family of politicians”) but here REW addresses, consistently, over the years, the issue discussed by the Jewish public. It was on him to get the right information before making his public statements.
Yankel, I was reading ch ch letters of 1920s until early 30s, and didn’t find any negative statements on zionizm, even as his main topic is decline of observance. So it is just several years difference. Speculating: maybe ch ch objected and thus REW published only after his petirah? I didn’t know about RCHO involvement, thanks. Is this from independent sources or from REW chasidim?
There seems to be a difference of opinion on serious errors even in core beliefs. Rambam considering any such error fatal, while sefer haikkarim allowing for mistakes. Note that the latter lived at the time of mass confusion and conversion in Spain and tried to bring people back.
yankel > As an outsider, I think many of us view every habadi as both a Mikdash & a Madhouse.
this is not new. R Soloveitchik writes in 1950s that he respects Alter Rebbe’s teaching, finds published chabad magazines illiterate, and then is at awe at their reaching out to small pockets of assimilated Jews.
> ANYTHING that is not accurate to Torah is by definition kefira.
So, masheches horayos talks about sanhedrin that did kefirah? News to me and presumably to the tannaim and amoraim also.
yankel> there is no indication whatsoever to be taken from the fact that hafets hayim approved of rav kook going into the rabinate
even if historically correct ,agree, approval at early times is not necessarily an agreement on later actions. Still, we seem to have established here that CC and REW had different views, or at least public views at the overlapping times. So, if you want to follow REW, you need to explain why you are not satisfied with following CC.
Avi K > As for REW having a radically different opinion, the Gemara has many examples of chachamim who disagreed with their rabbanim
I have no problems with REW holding his own opinion. But some here see him as a authority, and especially as a student of CC. So, it seems that in this aspect it was REW who disagreed with his teacher.
metoo > if the steipler said not to publicize the letter, he probably had a good reason (or reasons) for saying so. Could it be that his high praise for NK was one of them?
this sounds plausible. The arguments in the letter seem to be designed specifically for NK listeners. It does not mean that Steipler agrees with them, he is simply saying “even if you hold these views” …
yankel> not sure why you keep on [deliberately ?] ignoring the multitudes who were forced away from religion by the medina ?
wrong thread? I am discussing Steipler’s letter and issues he is raising.
In Michal’s view, David danced inappropriately in front of bnos yisroel … he should have refused the procession until all the ladies were removed from the celebration?!
yankel > including securing the Cave of the Patriarchs and its surroundings… with female Border Police officers,
A good, and rather extreme, example. I am reminded here that Yosef was able to withstand his guard duty in the presence of a female – by recalling the face of his father. I would think anyone with minimal religious sensitivity should be able to do the same right near the maaras hamachpelah! Probably those female officers would do the same…
I am not making light of the situation. I think this is an unfortunate situation but unlikely to ruin yungelait when this happens once – and then document and complain, and go to the knesset and demand that this should stop. And say, fix X, Y, and Z instead of “we will not serve”.
> CC was actually uncertain about publishing his one and only anti Zionist letter which opposed the claim Zionists then made (they no longer do) that by living in EY and speaking you can be a good Jew without keeping Torah.
smerel, thanks for answering my question – that CC was very limited in his public arguments against Z. I had this impression from reading his correspondence and finding arguments against every other group, but it is hard to prove a negative. The question then on REW – how could he have such a drastically different position? Was there any discussion between REW and CC? Did REW ask? Did CC respond to what REW was saying and writing?
smerel, R Greineman writes as if he saw this first hand, not from R Poupko and it seems from the text that he was writing with CC approval. I understand his crying is not because of Balfour, or a possible misuse of Balfour, but that people are satisfied with such a small step towards the geulah.
If I dare to add, CC seems not to be familiar with the chinese saying – a journey of a thousand li begins with a single step.
Avi> The religious ruined it by not heeding Rav Kook’s call
Agree, but you are mindlessly repeating the lashon hara terms – as if followers of R Kook were not “religious”. As somejew showed, it is asur to speak such loshon hora.
chaim > second on my personal devices I’d love to get a filter but can’t afford a few hundred dollars for my devices
if you limit yourself to a computer and sell “devices” (note the shoresh – “vices”!) and stop paying their monthly fees – you can then afford paying for the filter. Oh, wait, you will not even need them! even more left for tzedokah. Make that first donation in my name.
lakewood > What happened when it’s 2 am and no one else is up in your house
this is not a problem in my house! If it is in yours, just wait until your kids are teens.
the simple solution is time-based controls. And give your spouse/parents/children teamviewer access – that is have them logged into your computer remotely. If you are worrying about night shift, have also a shomer in EY or in China.
There are also tools that do random snapshots of the screen (or you can program this capability yourself), making them available to your shomer/shomeret.
we have established rules of yerusha – going up level to tati, then zeide, etc. Hope the yerush is not a minsagid or a satmar.