Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
The Mishnah Brurah is the source for Litvaks (Misnagdim). If you hold by it, you probably should not go to a hasidic shul since they have different holdings, some of which result in davening later than misnagdim.
You have one “beshert” and that’s the one you got married to.
Obviously the mommies. While the men are busy getting the world screwed up, someone has to keep the kids on track of we become extinct.
Health: When offered a choice between leaving Spain or taking up Avodah Zarah, left. They gave up all their property and undertook long sea voyages to places where Jews were allowed to live (in ships that would be quite uncomfortable by modern standards).
Those who remained became the “marranos.” They made a decision to publicly accept Christianity so they could keep their property. Many of them were persecuted anyways, but remember, especially if talking about the early 16th century, they were ones who decided to stay when they had a choice.
If Columbus were really a Jew, he would have been working for anyone except Spain. At that time, skilled sea captains were in demand in many countries. He chose to stay in Spain. If he was a “marrano”, he would have married a Jew. The underground Jews were very fussy about that (which is why they get annoyed when their yichus is question after 500 years of underground marriages).
And given his willingness to engage in kidnapping people to sell as slavery and ethnic cleansing, we really wouldn’t want to claim him.
He might have had Jewish ancestry but it is clear he was a religious Catholic. In his line of work (seaman) he could easily have moved to another country, yet he chose to stay in Spain – meaning it is very unlike he was a Marano. He went to great efforts to marry “above his station” rather than marrying someone else of Jewish descent (i.e. he made sure his children would be goyim, if in fact he was Jewish). There is really no way to know his ancestry in detail. Given he was something of a greedy imperialist (which is a polite way to say a thief working for government), and had no problem working for a very anti-semitic government even though he had a choice in the matter, I don’t think we’ld really want to claim him.
Think of all the things that could happen in the near future: global warming, ice age, civil war in Israel, Israeli wars with goyim, everything that Republican trolls say about Obama come true, the stock market crashes, hypeinflation, Meshiach comes and announces that he wants to talk to all the tsadikim and your phone doesn’t ring, etc.
And remember the goyish expression: That to say “may you live in interesting times” is actually a curse
So enjoy being bored.
If it was your daughter who had made some very bad choices, what would you want done?
Bail is supposed to be to guarantee you’ll come back for your trial – it isn’t a form of punishment – that’s in the constitution.
People who are drunk or high are not necessarily criminally liable for acts done “under the influence” – she should be taken off to sober up (come down from whatever she was on), then tried. Bringing someone not in their right mind was unfair.
Where were her parents?
To make an analogy to dogs (and in this analogy the Americans are unusually friendly and intelligent canines), the Arabs are and have for most of our history been fairly moderate as beasts go. As long you don’t threaten them, or boss them around, or get in their way – they will probably like you. Around World War I we started pulling their tails and they got very annoyed. We went along with the Brits in double crossing the Arabs after the war ; at first we worked with them for an autonomous Jewish homeland within the large state the Arabs were offered for helping the Allies in the war, but by the mid-20s the zionists were firmly in charge of the Yishua and were supporting the Brits – frankly we are lucky that most Arabs didn’t flock to the Germans in WWII since it might have changed the outcome but the Arabs generally realized Hitler would eventually turn on them as well – the “Mufti” tried but couldn’t find any support.
Based on past experiences, in a post-zionist Eretz Yisrael (i.e. after the haredim become a minority and are willing to compromise on sovereignity in return for peace), the Arabs won’t object to Jews learning Torah (as long as we cover our own bills, and the most frum of the hareidim already do). They won’t draft us (under Islam, Jews didn’t have the right to bear arms). As long as we give them political control and don’t try to impose alien values on them, they will tolerate us. That has been their past pattern and there is no reason to think the past won’t repeat.
We could be active economically, certainly to a much greater extent than under the zionists, as long as we don’t get too bossy. We have only limited political rights meaning we’ld have as much control of the country as we do under the zionists. The legal system would be no more rigged against than it is today, but they would respect communal autonomy.
The hilonim would be the big losers. The infamous sort of tourism that Tel Aviv prides itself on would be banned. You wouldn’t have a Jewish girl at the Miss World contest, nor an Israeli diplomat sat the UN. Pork breeders would be in trouble. While the Muslims share a belief in a welfare state, they also have a belief in not running an economy based on printing money, so no more welfare state to sponge off of.
We should tolerate the zionists treating us as “second class citizens” as long as they don’t do something too oppressive, such as drafting yeshiva students or women. But if they did, they will be approaching a tipping point where it be time to consider going from being second class Israelis to second class Palestinians.
It is debateable if Shakespeare was an anti-semite. His defense of Jews (Shylock’s famous “If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh?….” speech) is regarded by some as a deliberate attack on anti-Semitism. It should be noted that at the the typical mode of accomodating religious minorities in England usually involved somewhat gruesome methods of capital punishment. It is unlikely Shakespeare ever met a Jew, and few in his audience had (Jews were banned from England in the period, though a few were there pretending to be from Spain something we know since when arrested for being Catholics they go off by convincing the court they were really Jews and really weren’t loyal to the king of Spain), though there were large Jewish communities in Europe. It’s hard to make a clear conclusion as to his biases – indeed some people question whether he even existed at all.
Mark Twain is well known for having denounced discrimination against Blacks (and Jews), and was a prominent contributor to African American causes.
The alternative is to have FRIDAY as the second day off. This facilitates getting ready for Shabbos. As it is most frum Israelis take a half day off on Friday, or take the whole day off. Having Sunday has an official day off puts pressure on people to work on Friday.
There is also the issue of wanting to accomodate the Christians as opposed to the Muslims (remember that the largest religious minority in ISrael are Muslims and their day off is Friday,and also the adjacent countries are Islamic, so that closing on Sunday instead of Friday sends a message that Israel isn’t interested in peaceful coexistence with its neighbors).
Of course there is the option of a four day week.
WELFARE BENEFITS. Are given to everyone. They are very common in Europe, increasingly common in the USA (Obama is pushing them, the Republicans oppose him). The idea that to a certain extent everyone, regardless of who or what they are, should receive a certain package of benefits. A problem is that (according to conservative economists) they remove the incentive work. Frum Jews generally place a great value on having time for learning, time for family activities (which include learning), and work schedules that avoid hassles – so the effect of welfare benefits is to discourage work. The same has been observed among goyin in general (note the debate between Romney and Obama on these matters). Giving welfare benefits to one group (Arabs who support Hamas, Jewish gangsters, Jews who chose to spend all day being high and playing computer games, etc.), and denying to another group (Jews who spend all day learning Torah and caring for their children), would be considered discriminatory.
KOLLEL BENEFITS are money paid specifically for learning in kollel. This is really a (poorly paid) job, not welfare. If the zionists want to limit them to people who serve in the army it is less controversial – similar to a donor who supports Satmar who doesn’t want his money going to zionists.
But what if Meshiach comes and I’m dead yet? Will I get a refund? Will the cemetary transfer the grave site to Eretz Yisrael (they move bodies, they don’t move whole empty graves).
I have been in the homes of gedolim, and have not heard them refer to no-Jewish women as “shiksas” and have heard them tell their children not to use such language.
Because uncultured Baal ha-Battim use rude language does not make it right.
Everyone is confusing standard benefits that Israel pays all resident citizens, since Israel is a “welfare state” on a European model – with specific benefits given to those who are learning in government approved kollels. The former are quite liberal, and go someone whether or not they are employed (regardless of if they are making military goods for export, or empoyed as a teacher in a yeshiva, or whatever) and whether or not they are Jewish (as opposed to Palestinian) or whether they support the state (thus even Arabs who advocate destruction of the zionist state and are working towards that goal will still get the benefits if they are Israeli citizens).
If you have Type Two diabetes, you probably can (or could have) reduced almost all the problems by radically reducing your weight and exercise. None of the books from either reputable or not so repspectable sources say otherwise. Even someone who sits and learns, can easily control his diet by eating less and such simple exercise as walking routinely. There are no halachic issues to the contrary, and our gedolim tend to be thin and frequently walk rather than ride (especially the long-lived ones).
If you have Type One diabetes you are either taking insulin shots or you are dead (before artificial insulin was invented, type one diabetes was inevitably fatal).
Among good frum Jews in Europe and America the words “Shiksa” and “Shaygetz” were rude ways of referring to goyim or to Jews who act like goyim. Among the secular Yiddish speakers who lived in America in the latge 19th and 20th century (before the holocaust refugees arrived, which for the first time in America including many frum Jews), the words had a much stronger sexual overtone. The terms are well known to many Americans from the frei Jewish usage, and that usage is one that is not proper for frum Jews to use. A correct translation of the word, as used in secular Yiddish, and therefore American English, would not be allowed on YWN.
An interesting analogy is when Alphonse D’Amato wanted to both insult Charles Schumer (then running for D’Amato’s Senate seat) and used a phrase that based on the usage he had heard (from secular Jews) was mildly rude – and in fact in was (in the Yiddish of the frum Jews whose support he was seeking) extremely vulgar and obsence. Unfortunatley, there is some evidence that choice of word is why Schumer is today a leading Senator.
“Frei” is the Yiddish word meaning “secular” and is a quite proper way to refer to non-Orthodox Jews, and was used by themselves back when there were secular Jews speaking Yiddish as a first language. It is not a perjorative. The literal Hebrew translation, “Hofshi” is used in polite company, and is even in the zionist/Israeli anthem.
“Shiksa”, which is actually a Yiddish version of the Hebrew word for a “worm” (an “Av Tumah”) has strong sexual connotations, as does the masculine equivalent (“Shaggetz”) , and probably should not be used in polite company. Its widespread use is because the Yiddish spoken by most pre-war (meaning, before the holocaust refugees arrived and hareidi Jews became common in the USA), was not “polite”. YWN probably should block posting with the word. The correct way for a Ben or Bas Torah to refer to a non-Jews in Yiddish or Hebrew is as a “Goyah” or a “Nachrit” or an “Annenah Yehudit”. If you need to refer to a female worm, one should use the correct Hebrew term pronounced as it is in Lashon Kodesh.
If this is a bricks and mortar class, circulate a condelence card. Make sure it is a secular one (this is likely to be a problem if the college is under some other religion’s auspices). This is what is common in offices. This would especially be true if its a large class as opposed to a small seminar. Another factor is whether you are just one name on a roster, or whether you actually work with this professor (e.g. your advisor, specialist in an area you are majoring in, is this someone you’ll be asking for a reference form, etc.).
Also ask why he let you know. Was he explaining why the papers weren’t graded on time and doesn’t expect a reply? Just saying “I’m sorry to hear… ” is probably adequate in person.
You might check some goyish ettiquette books.
There is no problem not saying good Shabbos to a passerby if you know her (for a man). The issue arises if it is a total stranger. If you said “Gut Shabbos” to everyone you pass in a place like Boro Park you would end up greeting so many people you wouldn’t get to walk anywhere. In smaller cities most people assume they know, or should know everyone, and everyone tends to greet all Jewish passerbys since it would be insulting not to pretend you know them.
Let’s have more fun with the definition problem – you grew up in Williamsburg but never davened with kavanah, cheated a bit on waiting six hours, talked about politics during davening — then you ran away from home, went to college, wear a kippuh srugah and daven in a Young Israel – but you actually daven during davening, never discuss politics on Shabbos, and learn all day. Or vice versa? Which is OTD and which is a BT?
How about a Shomer Shabbos thief? What about a “conservadox” or “conservative” who totally gives up on kashruth and Shabbos (OTD or doesn’t count to start with). How about a totally assimilated Jew who adopts ingredient kashruth and stops working on Shabbos, but perhaps will turn on a light – but won’t go to his job.
A good frum sociologist might dream up an index to measure frumkeit for comparison purposes. It is interesting to note that frum institutions at all levels are growing, and non-frum ones are shrinking – but that may be due to birth rates more than anything else.
It would have been less confusing if it was “Banos Yaakov”, but no one thought of it at the time. Most other Jewish girls’ school are “Bnos ….. ” and/or have a female name.
IF someone named Devorah paid for the school, no problem with “Toras Devorah.” Think of the people who have names such as Gittleman or Estherman – men have had no trouble with names that show who provides the money.
There are two issues that are be co-mingled and are really separate.
One is the specific money given to kollel students for being in kollel. In the future this might be replaced with grants tied to having served in the army. Non-zionist hareidim don’t accept this money as a matter of principle. While these grants are only for the yeshivos, other subsidy programs assist secular institutions (e.g. universities) who have academic programs covering Jewish studies – and these subsidies tend to be more liberal.
The second is Israel’s liberal social benefits programs which benefit all (hiloni Jews, Russian goyim, Palestinians, etc.) but are especially important for hareidim since one of the benefits is a liberal child allowance, and we have lots of kids. Most western countries with welfare states give such allowances (in the USA its a $1000 per child tax credit). One can argue that Israeli can’t afford the liberal welfare state, but try arguing that in a country where Obama’s economic and social policies would cause him to be regarded as a right-wing fanatic (and note that most hareidi Jews are clearly on the far left of the spectrum on economic matters, which in some way reflects our tradition of meeting human needs first and then worry where the money is coming from).
“Bridesmaids” are a non-Jewish custom (of pagan origins – Wikipedia believes the Romans used the bridesmaid to confuse evil spirits). The bride’s friends. Jews traditionally are escorted to the ceremony by the parents or someone acting in place of the parents – and in traditional weddings it can be a mob scene rather than the structured ceremony more formal American prefer.
1. No one has done a systematic study, and there are a lot of definitions to be played with. If some is raised Hasidische in Boro Park, and ends up being modern in New Jersey, are they off the derech, and in the reverse, are they BTs (i.e. the Young Israel kid who grows up to be a Boro Park adult)? Lines get to be very fuzzy, especially if you want a clear border between frum and not-frum, which in essence is what is needed for a neat BT/OTD discussion.
2. If you look at published Shailohs and advice columns, you’ll note that until the 1960s you were more likely to read about frum parents asking how to act when they visited their treff kids, and since then more likely to be about the BT kid asking how to deal with their non-frum parents.
3. When secular Jews study the matter, they focus on shul membership, which is problematic since many members of modern orthodox shuls are not frum by any definition, and many orthodox Jews don’t join a shul (especially in big cities, and especially among hasidim – traditionally being a member meant accepting financial responsibility for the shul as opposed to being someone who came regularly to daven there).
RE: “What do charedim financially contribute to the state?”
1. Yeshivos are actually a major industry. Tens of thousands of non-Israelis come to yeshivos from abroad, spending huge amounts on both tuition (which goes to pay Israeli teachers) and living costs. The Israelis understate this industry since they regard anyone in kollel, at least if they are exempt from being drafted, as being idle and unemployed when in fact most kollel people (using American definitions) are employed in the same sense that professors, research fellows and supported graduate students are employed.
2. A great many hareidim have non-frum community jobs, but under Israeli law many of them are forced to work “under the table” to avoid being conscripted by an army that is for the most part quite hostile (except for some specialized units that are aimed for hareidim). If the army accomodated hareidi lifestyle and halachic interpretation, employment would be increasing “in the open.”
3. Whenever someone actually addresses the exclusion of hareidim from the mainstream economy, the hilonim scream “religious coercion” as in “What do you mean I can’t touch my female coworkers” or “Why can’t we have company meetings at my favorite restaurant so I can have my beloved pork chops” or “Why can’t we schedule our work schedules to match when the markets are open in America”, etc. Along with the fact the army has no serious manpower shortages, this suggest the move for “conscription” is solely motivated by hatred and fear of a growing hareidi population.
You also have to make a distinction between various grants that are available to anyone (Jews, Arabs, Kollel, Employed, etc.), which are sometimes focused on helping large families (again, regardless of job status or ethnicity) – and anything specifically for being in kollel, which might include money paid to the kollel itself which the kollel uses to pay the individuals. The reason this distinction is important is that if the army ties government benefits to willingness to serve in the IDF, the first type will probably continue, and the second type will disappear (at least as far as hareidim who don’t serve in the army). However these are separate types of programs.
I am highly skeptical this is about co-ed schools. It sounds like the schools won’t take his kids since they are mad at his politics, so he has adopted American-style “nuisance litigation” in retaliation. As Belgium has joined a UN treaty that guarantees the right to home school, I’m not sure why he doesn’t home school – though I suspect he is having fund be a gadfly. His kids will probably revolt against their parents and run off and become super-normal yeshivish kids.
It’s long been off patents, available generically, and frequently with a prescription. The seminary can refer you to a pharmacist who knows the local brand name. Why import from America where it is probably more expensive (and may turn out to have been shipped from Israel to begin with, since they manfucture in Israel).
Since you already paid for a license to own one CD, it would be within the terms of the license to repair/replace a broken CD. Ownership of a CD is not a contract to own the piece of plastic – it’s the right to listen to the contents. This isn’t even a fair use issue.
They should ask their embassy/consulate what to do. For getting a non-Israeli citizenship, what matters is whether the foreign government recognizes the marriage and relationship. What the Israeli government thinks of such matters is irrelevant.
Not paying VAT would require open rebellion. Not paying income tax would be easier since its widely ignored. Since the Israelis consider students and teachers to be “unemployed” (since from a zionist perspective, learning Torah is not productive work), they don’t collect income tax on their salaries. The biggest contribution of the Hareidim to the Israeli economy is the large amount of money (including money spent by foreign students) spent on financing Torah studies that comes from other countries; this will dry up since many of the foreign students are being sent by parents who won’t send them if they see escalating conflict in Israeli yeshivos.
In reality, the only “weapon” of the hareidi community would be to follow the Neturei karta option and ally with the Muslims against the zionists (this was last tried by what is now the Eidah hareidus, but it was then Agudah Yisrael, in the 1920s, and the zionists replied by shooting the frum community’s representative and warned that anyone who tried to make peace with the Arabs would be next). It would take extreme provocation to get the bulk of the Hareidim to prefer a Palestinian state, albeit with Jewish autonomy, over a zionist state (even one that persecutes Jews).
Be wary of what you read in the press. Few journalists have access to North Korea, and the sources of “information” are enemies of the regime. While that doesn’t prove the falsehood of the statements, it suggests being dubious.
Enemies of people, especially when engaged in a life or death armed struggle, do tend to be less than objective in reporting (and making up) facts.
Given that in a war the government will depend on the loyalty of the conscript army, I doubt they’ll try to antagonize them by eating their relatives.
Give the president credit. Last Monday he announced that global warming and he was going to make it colder – and it promptly got colder.
1. Choral music raises many shailohs (content, womens voices, words are distracting)
2. Some classical music has an avodah zarah shailoh (a shailoh, not an objection)
3. There is the issue (for non-zionists) that we aren’t supposed to be listening to music for enjoyment while in mourning for Yerusalim.
4. Otherwise, it is certainly prefereable to the usual noises of the “real world” – especially
when commuting.
It would make sense. He believes, as does much of the Israeli ruling class, that after three years in the army, most Hareidim will come out as normal Israelis. They might not make it all the way to hiloni, but at least they’ll be good dati leumi. From his perspective, it means they’ll have “won” by having become “real” Israelis. The demographic threat of Israel turning into a Jewish state, rather than a zionist one, would have been averted. Remember the problem isn’t that the army lack manpower, but that the growing hareidi population is threatening the character of the medinah.
He’s probably wrong. Traditionally, Jews are like iron. Fire turns them into steel. I would suggest a more likely scenario is we’ll end up with, for better or worse, an Islamic Palestine replacing Israel due both to the army being seriously weakened from within, and the Hareidi community switching from passive acceptance of zionism to active resistance.
English is a dynamic language with no language academy. Neither Congress nor Parliament decides what is correct.
Most of the people posting on CR speak a “frum” dialect, which blends many Hebrew and Yiddish words. Just because the Oxford dictionary didn’t hear of a world, doesn’t mean it isn’t a kosher word. While in some countries there is an official dialect and all other dialects and usages are by definition incorrect, that isn’t the case in English. Yeshivish is no more or less proper than the Queens English or Brooklynese or the standard American dialect (spoken in most of America west of the Appalachians and north of the Mason-Dixon line, but not in the places where most orthodox Jews live).
Many times one wants to use a Hebrew or Yiddish word, since English lacks an adequate vocabulary for many Jewish concepts.
1. No one claims the army is short on manpower. That’s not an issue.
2. Israel has a serious demographic “time bomb” and many hilonim hope that after spending three years in the army at ages 18-21, many hareidim will chose to follow a “normal” lifestyle, thereby eliminating the threat of hareidim becoming a dominant group in Israel. The whole idea of zionism is to build a “modern” secular state, and that isn’t possible unless something can be done to reduce the number of hareidim. If hareidim keep having large families, and if only a small number go “off the derekh” (and many non-hareidim become baalei tseuvah), the zionist dream is dead.
3. For those who see Torah and Mitsvos as the basis of being Jewish, the yeshiva students are bearing the burden of national survival, giving up much parnassah to learn frull time, whereas the hilomim are deadbeats contributing nothing to Jewish survival.
4. Even if you ignore a gemara that says that if the malchus wants to call you to the army, and you are learning, you can use lethal force to defend yourself – some people hold that establishing a secular Jewish state, which rejects Jewish law and tradition as its basis, is not only not required by halacha, but is in fact prohibited. If that is the case, we are the “rodfim” and the Palestinians are the “nirdafim”, and we are prohibited from killing them or destroying their property meaning service in the IDF is prohibited. In the past people with these views, who may be a fairly high percentage of the hareidim community, have not needed to confront the zionists since they were exempted from the army by claiming they were in yeshiva (the Israelis require very little time in Beis Medrash to be a full time student – most Baal ha-Battim spend close to the required time even if they don’t aspire to be Bnei Torah).
1. If you base the Israeli claim to Eretz Yisrael on the United Nations (rather than on the basis of Torah, which raises many issues since Torah was clearly given in order to facilitate doing mitsvos, not building a secular state), then the United Nations can simply repeal its resolution and pick a different one. In addition, the British claim to Palestine was purely based on conquest, and if the Brits had a right by conquest, all the Arabs have to do is conquer and its there’s pure and simple. Over the last 70 years, international law has evolved to the point that no country can claim a right by virtue of conquest – and you’ll note that no country has added territory since the end of World War II by conquest unless they can assert the people support them.
2. My comments on the army were based on being in a regular (i.e. secular) unit. If the army keeps religious soldiers in separate religious units it will minimize the immediate problems but create a discrimination issue that will become a “time bomb.” Problems include fast days (army rules exempt soldiers from working, but units villify those who don’t work on fast days), davening schedules (soldiers are released for davening rather than davening being part of the schedule), disputes of kashruth and the fact that most kitchen personnel are hiloni, behavior of male and female hiloni soldiers in ways we can not discuss (it was with a good basis that some gedolim compared the army to a “Beis Busha” and discussed with female conscripts were considered to be a “shevuyah”). Note the recent incident where some frum Dati Leumi officer candidates were disqualified from becoming officers because they refuse to listen to women singing (i.e. refuse to be present with naked women). Unless the hilonim agree to have the whole army be run based on the parameters of hareidi society, allowing for some separate “Nahal hiloni” units- there will be a serious problem.
3. “National service” is supported only by religious Jews who want to serve but hold they are prohibited (being female). Unless you recognize full time learning as “national service” , it has no support from the hareidi community except as an alternative to military service for hareidi baal ha-battim who don’t want to serve in the army (an option that has been rejected)
4. The government has occasionally arrested hareidim for not serving, and the hiloni press anticpates that hareidi who refuse to serve in the army will go to prison. Unless the medinah agrees to regard hareidim as religious objectors, with the penalty limited to loss of some government fund (similar to what happens to Israeli Muslims who don’t serve in the army, and no worse), a very serious crisis is brewing.
There are three distinct issues.
One is Bitul Torah -that would apply even if you are no so frum as to have problems in the army, and totally support zionism.
The second is the “spiritual” danger which is a polite way of saying that army harasses frum soldiers and persecutes them if they are too frum (e.g. gives you a choice between davening with a minyan or having breakfast) with the hope that the soldiers will lower their level of observance and become more normal – this can be mitigated in several ways, including having special “segregated” frum units.
The third is the belief that the state is treff, i.e. there is no halachic basic for the zionists to have seized control from the Arabs and therefore we are the agressors and we have no right to kill the Arabs in defense of what is little better than theft, and certainly there is no basis to be bitul Torah or to put up with harassment in order to help defend the zionist state.
zahavasdad: In response to your “Unless they have US or EU citizenship they arent going anywhere” – once the government starts arresting hareidim for refusing to serve in the army on any sort of halachic grounds (as opposed to at present where people get arrested for draft evasion and paperwork errors) – any Israeli hareidi gets the status of a person being persecuted because of their religion which makes them a eligible to request asylum. I suspect many countries that dislike Israel might be pleased to have them. Indeed, I would be surprised if the some of the adjacent Arab countries would welcome them in order to “show” to the world that their war is against the “zionists” rather than the “Jews.” Draft refusal means telling the army that you are present and able to serve, and are refusing to do so since the army and the medinah are contrary to Torah. To be taken seriously, anyone making that claim should not have a history of being on the government’s payroll. Given that the hilonim are not idiots, and tend to be very sensitive to international human rights laws (which sometimes protect religious minorities), they will probably make the only penalty for draft-refusers is that you lost the government entitlements (to the same extent on Arab Muslims who also don’t serve on religious grounds). If the government were to raid a Beis Medrash and start seizing students it would be among the stupidest things they ever did, and future historians would probably say that it was the point when a single Palestinian state from the desert to the sea became likely.
Veltz Meshugener: Any good education will work. It doesn’t matter if you are learning Greek and Latin (and all educated westerners did in the 18th century), or Hebrew and Yiddish. Being educated isn’t a function of which odd facts you’ll never need in real life, but rather of having the skills you need. A good yeshiva education gives you those skills.
When the goyim switched from “classical” to “modern” subjects, we considered it and the rabbanim chose to stick to our “classical” subjects. Time has proven them right. The goyim’s schools do not appear to be producing students with a love of learning, or respect for their subjects. The schools are famous for things we’ld rather not be known for. The vulgarity and crudeness of their culture speaks volumes on how well this educational experiment worked. Their schools are infamous for behaviors of the sort we don’t discuss here – all resulting from their curriculum. And it turns out the grduates lack the skills needed for careers, and have trouble writing English beyond the level of a tweet. Our rabbanim were correct to emphasize the “classics”. Learning specific skills without a thorough grounding in your own heritage leave you a intellectual zombie.
If someone needs them, the rest can be learned. Increasingly “distance education” is become the norm. Virtually all introductory college courses are covered by the AP/CLEP system.
Even when discussing schools that radically reject secular subjects, we have nothing to be ashamed of or to apologize for.
dotnetter: I am fully aware that modern western education no longer features the classics. You can tell by the quality of the writing. People like Adam Smith (who invented modern economics) and Benjamin Franklin (who when he wasn’t the leading politician of his era, and one of the leading businessmen, was also one of the leading scientists of the 18th century), not to mention people like George Washington (a major player in agricultural research, not to mention a few other things) and Thomas Jefferson – all had “classical” educations. Their proficiency is other subjects including all the ones we consider to “practical” were largely self-taught. The point is that a kid with a pure yeshivish (i.e. studying the Jewish classics) background who wants to enter a career is in no way prevented from doing so, and maybe better off than the typical public school who has been learning how to have self-esteem while being politically correct without mastering either specific academic skills or developing the ability to learn on his own.
It’s unlikely to happen since Eretz Yisrael has lower living costs (especially if you avoid the big cities) unless the government starts actively rounding up all hareidim as draft dodgers or accessories, and even then I’ld suspect the Palestinians will get clever and invite some yeshivos to move into Area A. If the yeshiovos and seminaries catering to foreigners start to close, that will take many thousands of jobs with them, and if the government starts raiding frum institutions to arrest people it will scare off foreign students (or rather, scare off their parents).
Even the “worst” of our schools in secular studies provide an excellent education. It’s the equivalent of the “classical” education that was the norm in western countries until about 150 years ago. They learn they can master hard subjects, learn to work together, learn to work independently. There’s nothing wrong with a “classical” education (ours are in Hebrew, there’s in Latin and Greek). Classically educated people have gone on to mastery of many other subjects. The schools that skip the modern subjects don’t realize it, but they are carrying on a tradition that has produced many of the greatest scholars and scientists of the western world. Only a simple minded person needs to be “spoon fed” everything in school. Most people need to get into the mindset to learn and study (our schools do that nicely), and they can tackle anything.
If they get interested in some other subject, it’s just a matter of getting the book and studying it, and take the test – as many have done. Meanwhile the public school kids often end up being sent to Rikers Island to learn a trade – we can look at Bloomberg at the like and tell them to get their act together and leave us alone.
No, we don’t work for YWN.
Remember that in America, one can study on one’s own, and then take the SAT, CLEP, AP exams, and go to a university. Our kids learn how to study on their own, or in havrusa, and are quite prepared to take on subjects if they ever have a need for them.
The most likely course of action is that those who object to serving will not be imprisoned, but will be treated like anyone else (e.g. Palestinian citizens of Israel) who doesn’t serve in the army, and that any government support for yeshivos will be tied to military service. If the army also decides to accomodate hareidim in the military (at the very least in special units that are conducted according to halacha), the crisis will pass.
There are many in the zionist movement who believe that they can use conscription to break the hareidi community, and that after three years in a Mitsvah-free atmosphere the conscripts will come back as good secular (or at least “dati”) zionists, but that’s unlikely. Such policies would encourage widespread resistance and probably undermine the state (undermine as in forcing many hareidim to adopt an Eidas hareidus/Satmar/Neturei Karta position, and support a one-state solution based on Palestinian control and Jewish autonomy).. The zionists are sane enough to not push that hard.
Patience.
The “witch hunt” type cases tend to fall apart within a few years – so if he was framed, it will come out. Evidence that was surpressed can always be released and publicized once the case is done in the courts. New witnesses, for either side, can always come foreward. Since the case was closely tied to anti-Satmar biases, which are likely to get worse (especially if Israel starts conscripting anti-zionist hareidim, which Satmar will protest vocally, causing more anti-Satmar hatred by many of the same people who brought this case), the issue won’t disappear.
Anyone, male or female, should dress in the matter expected by the situation and as anticipated by the person they are dealing with. That is especially true of a shidduch “date”, but is really true of everything else.