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RY, that’s sort of the problem. the others who can’t afford, go into debt to make the same basic wedding. So the thinking is, the wealthier should scale back, but that’s not going to happen.
I would not have been able to afford but have one sibling who can help out. Otherwise I would have told the other side we can’t do this and that. Probably they would have paid the full thing I would think. But it’s not a good way to start the marriage thank G-d we are all getting along well and thank G-d there are grandchildren.
it’s a great idea, but’s it’s a very small item overall.
I have heard in some communities the Shmorg is very simple, a fraction of a fraction of what is done in NY area. In my experience, people just go along with ‘what is done’. A real individualist will make it in a Yeshiva Cafeteria ( I know someone who did so); and have a 1 man band.
this is not going to happen virally. Most people are able to find someone to help them, but if not, I would do like in a Yeshiva.
I served in the 80’s. I only did 1 year and 1 month but was supposed to do 2 years. Honestly, I did not see any of the issues people warn about, the znus, – we didn’t have females as fellow soldiers, they were in their own units. the lack of Kashrus? there were Mashgichim who checked the kitchens. Frum soldiers were allowed to make minyanim on the base. Maybe now it’s worse, I can’t say. I do know several boys from our community who have served and are not worse off in their frumkeit. I found overall very good people there (once out of basic training).
It’s not a reasonable request because, as we all know, there is a basic unfairness in the seating. the Middle seat. is least desirable by just about all. I am not a real big person, but big enough so that i will never sit in the Middle seat. Yet that person pays the same as the aisle or window. So don’t give them any ideas. But, the female is usually smaller and has not the same issues to sit in the aisle. but bec. of the person not wanting to sit next to a female, then she can’t get the middle seat. Now I also happen to prefer the aisle.
This happened to me once when I was travelling with my sister.
she took the middle but the man on the aisle complained. I was forced to take the middle, that is, my sister said to do so etc.
But why do i have to suffer, I made the arrangements for the window seat.
and you can refuse but what if they don’t find a willing changer then what
I married a BT. I fail to see what issues there can be. Once someone is fully Shabbos and Kashrus observant. Only issues can be with family. however, we have been good influence on one sibling who is not perfect but far more frum than we could have dreamed of.
If my wife is any indication, the BT does want all her family to become frum very passionately.
Just wanted to correct what I wrote yesterday. It’s the last pasuk in Haazinu, but the words used El Haaretz, the Ohr HaChaim asks why we need that, it’s alluding to the times of Moshiach, Moshe will be part of Techiyas Hamaisim, I didn’t look up but i think that is it.
The issue of Eretz Yisroel being Chaviva to Moshe is said by Rashi as to why HaShem shows him the land. I don’t recall the exact Pasuk but it;s in the Maftir.
Regarding the topic, in my Shule the women have their own program in S/T.
They have a guest speaker or 2 during the time the men are having the Hakafos. They then dance behind a Mechitza with no Torah. I know that many of them want to dance with the Torah but the Rav will not allow.
There is also in the town an occassional women’s minyan and they are planning dancing with the Torah.
I think that those women who want to dance with the Torah should do so. I have no problem with it. I don’t see why it bothers anyone.
Depending on the community, they would be in the main room or their own room, Seems like their own room, is the consensus.
Saying it’s not Mesorah is fine but so many things that are done today are also not Mesorah. and also what exactly is the harm if they dance with the Torah.
Regarding Moshe Rabbeinu, I think there is an Rashi on the next to last pasuk in Haazinu, Rashi Asks, why does the pasuk say ‘El Haaretz’ when it has a few words earlier, ‘veShama lo Savo’, we know aleady where he’s not going. Rashi says there, because HaShem knows EY is CHaviv lecha’ so HaShem lets him see the land. I am not sure exact words not having a Chumash in front of me but that is the gist. What is Chaviva leCha? He doesn’t say Mitzvos, if so, maybe do some Mitzvah there?
I am very glad my daughter did go to Sem. Although now she is married and made Aliyah, of course I miss her and the children, but so i go to visit and they spend the summers here.
I would not want to not send a child there for fear she would move there.
I do hope that I can move there myself in the near furture. I am done with this ‘exceptional’ America.
The issue for many is more of a human rights issue. For some, the answer is that the Torah forbids, and these people must suffer discrimination, or worse. Some people are not comfortable with this Mehalach. They don’t see why there is some kind of emphasis about this Averia over many others, including financial crimes, sex abuse, Chilull Shabbos and others. Why this dafka causes more extreme reaction than to other aveiros which are done. THis I think is the main divide on this issue. I personally am schizophrenic on the issue, I would say I am teiku. As Frum person, I cannot accept that whole gay experience as valid in any way, but as person who has lived in this world, I see the point about over zealousness on this averia over so many others. It seems unfair, without justification.
It would be an interesting question if I was invited say to such a wedding, say a relative.
They should sue because GZ was abusing drugs and this is likely what caused him to start the whole episode. He was on 2 medications, mixed them. He was not supposed to be driving or doing anything. these are not normal drugs, they are not supposed to be used prior to an activity like neighborhood watch, which includes driving a vehicle. I am surprised the prosecution didn’t make much of this, but I thought they were mistaken for going for the murder 2 rather than manslaughter.
THe medications can induce paranoia and agitation. This is pharmaceutical drugs, heavy with side effects. prescription for 1 of them says to sleep 7 hours upon taking. this is drug abuse.
I lived for 2 years in Beis Yisroel section, this is adjacent to MS.
I heard many children practicing screaming their nasty anti Jewish slogans. Every Motzai Shabbos the neighbors kids started.
This is the development of the hatred culture, now we see the results. And this is not the same as the Amish crook. We have stam criminals also in the Chareidishe world. These are total sinas CHinam, and that is supposed to mean something to us, not to equivalize with an Amish horse thief.
The issue is, we hear constantly how much bettter the Chareidim consider themselves than the Tziyonim and stam Jews. I read it all the time in the Yated Nee’man. How they put down others. Calling them spiritual wasteland and other epithets. And now we see that the Charidi society needs alot of cleansing. and people make this point and then the name calling starts, ‘your’e a chareidi basher’. It’s more important to realize the flaws in your own community.
Health – when you label any view or opinion which is not yours as ‘PC’ some sort of code, not sure what it means, its’ always thrown around. like PC is bad and then the other side of the coin is good.
This case especially is not black and white.
THe problem as I see it, each perspective has a narrative. If you think Z should get no punishment or that he even should have been arrested, this is because you buy into his exact version, that he was for no reason attacked with a severity which made him decide that he must kill or be killed.
However, my main problem with that scenario, is the kid was not wrong in where he was at the time, the fundamental foundation of the story.
So in a way at fault is the system of ID’s or the flow process whereby an innocent person, i.e. one who has reason to be in that gated community is never acted upon in any way.
Is this “PC”? I am troubled by the fact that he was abusing these drugs. One of them, it tells you – must sleep for 7 hours upon taking this. So he abused the drugs.
So why does he get such a pass by the ‘non PC’ crowd?
If he were drunk it would be a slam dunk. THese drugs are probably worse even than alchohol. oh i mean taken in non moderation.
Thus, I am neutral in this trial because I don’t know what really happened. But heavy drugs like this at play, is not a good defense.
I don’t know that there is actual evidence that he was being beaten down, that he was able to warn the perpetrator with gun, or his only option was to shoot to kill, or he could have shot at the leg.
Anything is possible. I feel sad that there doesn’t seem to be such evidence, and the decision will be made based on interpretations from a girlfriend and so on.
I would want justice to be correct but from the little i have heard,
I am not seeing it.
At issue I guess is the level of negligence on his part.
Like, why was he involved in this endeavour in the first place in general and particularly, the following of this lad, when, if he had suspicions of him, he should have called the police and gone home to sleep. This is what I would have done.
I am in fact in the retail job and often there are incidents with customers, at times the police are called when you are dealing with unruly or drunk people as has happened in my times behind the counter several times.
But this probably scares alot of people who beleive strongly in gun rights and having and using it also something aside from being in the IDF i dont have exp. with in civilains times.
But people who live in bad areas, I feel that they should have a gun for protection, just that I have never felt the need.
From a frum perspective, the gay person if they are from the Orthodox community, should make efforts to change the behavior, (or attraction?) but what should they do if they cannot win that battle?
If they are forced into hetero marriages the likelihood is that they will find a side person. Of course, they are probably very in the closet so it won’t come up. I can see them being pressured in shidduchim and having a problem. I am assuming that most of these folks are in the closet. So in a way, it would be better to let them be out of the closet thereby not forcing them in the normative Shidduchim parsha.
I have heard of a couple of such folks who do not engage in actual act of prohibited but simply prefer their company.
I don’t say I have proof that this is so but from what I read they are genuine Ye’ras Shomayim oriented.
Would there in fact be an Avairah, if they lived withhout that particular act?
E-O-M, lives are shattered as well by alchohol and gambling, many more in numbers. That is the point. Alchohol is toxic, and is progressive, the user drinks more till they are really causing themselves severe physical damage. Gambling I have seen people sent to jail over fraud caused by.
Cannabis, properly dosed and regulated is used overall less by volume and so is less toxic, or on the plus side has medical benefits.
Please tell more about the lives shattered you have seen.
Health, in the medical states of the USA, they have found less accidents in general. There seems to be evidence to support my view no links
What you content is maybe the case in Europe if you want to post a link, but truthfully, I am also interested in how things are in the USA, all countries and continents have different modes of living.
You said before more people would try Cannabis if legal. They have to come from somewhere. I think about 100 million Americans have tried versus about 20 mill who consumed in the past month. So that means many try and don’t like. It’s really speculation. But I contend that these additional consumers, some would come from using alchohol. There are already many people who do make this switch. It is certainly a healthier choice, but not the ideal to be dependant unless there is a medical reason.
What I mean at the end is that, I cannot understand the arguments against legalization of Cannabis. Whatever is said that may be bad is the same for alchohol, tobbacco, and gambling, and internet etc.
But in all those cases, we allow adults to be adults, liberatarian like. I am not speaking here of any frum issues.
The person decides for themselves if they should work a second job, or relax, and how they relax.
In addition, we have not mentioned that criminality of prohibition, over something less harmful than,
and the deaths of many people, the waste of resources etc. the lack of funds to rehab people.
We should be able to fund any addicts request for 30 day detox and recovery programming.
DY, my point was, instead of just tossing them out, why not educate them about the dangers to their developing brains, why not offer them the chance to not use cannabis.
Health, if there will be more people using Cannabis after legalization, since most people can get it now, many would be switching from alchohol, so the accidents would drop.
Since the cause of accidents are many other things, it’s unlikely for a huge increase. So far, 2 states which have very liberal Medical Marijuana laws have overall decreases in accidents.
Besides which, we tolerate collateral damage in many other things, such as the alchohol, the gambling, tobbacco. How many rapes and murders are acholhol fueled? why not put efforts to reduce that harm?
Main causes of accidents are cell phones/texting, alchohol, agressive driving. Cannabis used is very low on this list.
BTW, accidents are caused by many factors other than Cannabis.
Most accidents are because of driver distraction and/or alchohol, as well as road and weather conditions.
Cannabis use is very low on the list of accident causes. That is to say, there *are* stoned drivers now. It is wrong and should not be done. But if you are fearing stoned drivers, there are many other causes to be concerned about.
Obviously if someone is addicted to hard drugs they should go to rehab. This brings up a point. Some boys in my son’s Yeshiva High school were expelled for testing positive for Cannabis. If it’s not done on the premisis, I am not sure what business the school has to do that. Maybe they spend all their time doing things the school may not like? but they can’t test for that. Maybe they shoplift, or order food in the pizza shop and walk out without paying.
I thought that, this is wrong of the school. I think they should offer them rehab.
They should explain to them, that at their age, Cannabis is definetly harmful, according to all.
Shouldn’t they be teaching that? Maybe these boys are not aware of the dangers to themselves?
Now these boys are completely OTD, well what did you expect?
Wouldn’t it be worth the effort to try and get them back on the right path?
They could work if they want to. The issue for many is that they don’t want to be in a office with women who they feel are dressed immodestly. They could also go through the army process and get out on low profil, many do this. This is as if they served as far as job market. Also I don’t even think it matters. if someone is qualified and skilled they can get a job.
Many charideim have moved to CHu”l all the time and vice versa. Alot depends on their Chassidus and their comfort level.
I need to have on my pc, sql server 2008r2 is this machine able to handle that?
aproudbyg, I don’t think you are understanding how damaging your mother’s behavior is to you. The denial you are in, is distressing to see. To summarize from what I can see, your mother very often, hits you lightly, up to the point of breaking your clothes, and s soft choking motion, and we assume yells very often, you haven’t said much about that, and is there more? IOW, she treats you not as a daughter or a human being, or even a pet dog, but she abuses you via her power over you are her mother.
This is sickening to hear about and I for one, would like you to contact Ohel, or any of the numbers you were given, TODAY.
If you cannot do this today, please explain what is holding you back.
You mentioned Chilull Hashem, or fear that she lose her job. None of these justify her continuation of these abuses.
Remember, this is a public website. Aproudbyg is correct to not post details she does not want the larger public to know. She should seek help, but is not obligated to inform us of what, how, when, or why. No identifying information will be posted.
Wow, I grew up in a similar environment and went thru somewhat the same as your son.
I said earlier, I think that you have got to accept that he will not be frum for the time being and maybe never. At some point in the future, he may find he is missing Yiddishkeit and he can make his way back. I think your agony over this, is your problem and is possibly getting in the way of the next phase of his life which is getting into pre and adulthood, via either the Army, or becoming a sort of Yeshiva Bochur, University, or job training, marriage.
What I get here is your feelings are getting in the way of helping him.
I believe you should tell him that he doesn’t have to be frum. I see this as a core issue. I am speaking from personal exp. I was your son once.
It is a big deal though. You are being abused, and you as a victim want to please the abuser. You mentioned a ripped shirt and a soft choking she did? Can you make a list of all the things done that are not normal behavior to you? It may help you.
Both of you need immediate counseling. The thing about your mother is that, we don’t know what is the cause for this behavior. It is possible for you to grow up OK in this situation but experience would indicate future problems because you are living a continual traumatic life.
Perhaps the police is too harsh but the point is, that you should not have to live like this, and all options have to be considered. I have family members who because the parents refused to consider an alternative because of so called religious considerations, nothing good came of their Mehalach.
I do not think that the methods of taking your time to slowly and methodically analyze and consider this, is the best approach. If you could hear in your words your acceptance of this abuse, you would recoil in horror. It seems you are living in existential fear at every moment. This is utter abuse and
quite frankly, your mother’s behavior whatever excuse you can think of including drug addiction, is inhumane, off the charts, and she deserves nothing from you other than you committing her to full psychiatric and medical evaluation, however in your writing, you seem to shrug all this off, so that would be your starting point. I don’t know. If you want to suffer, then wait and suffer. But you don’t have to according to every moral position in the world.
But you need information. You need to know what the law says, what your options are.
I think if you want this violence to stop, none of these ideas will help. I would tell your Mom, ‘the next time you lay a finger on me like that I am reporting you to the police.’ Then she might stop. You are condoning behavior which is contrary to Torah and civil law.
You have the opportunity to stand up for yourself here.
She also said the local Rav and principal were not helpful. Ther is no mentor.The Mom is violent and who is to say it will stop at a ripped shirt? I didnt’ specify to report this to the police. She needs information, she can say its’ about a friend.
Contacting Ohel may not be much of an option if you don’t live in NY area. I think you should contact the police and discuss with them the situation. It sounds to me, like your mother has tremendous problems, and you are her punching bag.
She has a point but its’ true about any online social sites. including this one. Much time is wasted and one has to be on top of their game to control how much time you do spend, for each person there is some relaxation. FB is very good to locate old friends and for this reason I would never ban it for myself. Because I located someone who told me about a software developer who could help me, I have been blessed with continuous employment for over 3 years.
The point she makes easily extends to newspapers, any advertising, or most news items in general.
Everyone is looking for some magic potion that will make all the problems disappear but FB is only a symtom, that is abuse of FB in terms of time spent, what one does etc.
I would suggest considering to tell the boss, that you would like to get more involved in other facets of the company, to learn more of the business. You can look around and see which group is hardest working and ask if they need some help there but be specific, e.g to enter orders for this division etc.
I am familiar with your situation and it very very nasty thing to go through. Often the boss hates you, and so until he/she can fire you, they try to forget you exists, that you are a person with talent.
Speaking up as I suggest tho you run a risk of getting canned.
You have to decide if that would be ok or not, depending on your family situation, I wouldn’t wish to drive you to asking for Tzedaka on the street or so.
From what I have seen, my sons friends who are OTD, were not achieving success in learning, in any way. So they would not be insprired at all in learning Limudei Kodesh, so this influenced their next steps, in my experience, knowing these boys since they were babies. Whether they are physically abused or mentally, iow, the Yeshiva where he went, does not hit, but treated the non achiever like garbage in many ways. If this could be fixed relatively easy, it would help alot.
Probably you may find a strong learner who is OTD, but I would say the majority not.
if the soldiers are needed I dont see what is the problem to have them help. WHatever percentage of other Israelis server the same can be from all communities. Not sure why this hatred has to be.
in the 80’s I could see that not all people were needed in the army but now with the increase number of enemies and problematic borders with Syria and Egypt if someone is needed for Shemira to save lives, what exactly is the problem to do this work.
You can also become more spiritual and be frum in the Army,when I was in I saw many people become BT. There is a ignorant prejudice against all things Israel and Zionist that i find sickening to see on this and other sites. Often i think they are just kidding around but apparently not.
SOme of the ideas expressed here about pritzus are also off the mark. the women serve because they have the brains to do the work needed. as far as drafting Chareidim, the army needs more people. in my time in the army in the 1980’s you could see that they didn’t need everyone, that is, many people had little to do.
But now, if they feel the situation is different, we should encourage those who are not learning anyway to join up.
No. they didn’t want the right wing vision, a return to the dark ages. Blame this loss on the Tea Party.
But this loss you speak of is the issue. You would be better off to accept that he is not frum 24/7. And focus on the good side of him. I have that with my son as well. While he is not otd, he doesnt’ have a cheshek to daven very often but otoh he has a learning seder with a former Rebbe. And he is very honest and upbeat personality. Does not put on Tefillin daily. But I don’t love him less or am anguished about the lack of Cheshek.
It’s not exactly the same but I had at first disappointment in him, now not at all. I am proud of the good that he does at his young age and his good nature.
We are trying to suggest that you try to adjust your view in some way like that.
Also the cannabis, a long term study was just published that showed conclusively that those who used cannabis at a teen age and stopped in 20’s had IQ reduction against the same age group which did not use cannabis as teans but did in adulthood. you may want to print this study so he see this information.
I think that the wider public will shy away from Romney. I don’t think the overall population wants religious laws or customs to overrule the secular laws that have been in place for quite some time.
I am pretty sure without being too cynical, that the current admin will have some very fine crisis likea a small military intervention in Syria and then a cease fire to shine the silver of the presidents incumbant advantage.
WOW is the pain what exactly? None of this is your fault. It sounds like you projected to him a love of Hashem, Yiddishkeit etc.
He got involved with people who showed him an ‘exciting ‘ life and there was nothing to fill that void in the community. Perhaps you can learn to accept him as he is. If you can’t remove him from the home that is. If in fact drugs are involved then you need to get him into a rehab and recovey facility.
It would depend on which drug but unless it is ‘only ‘ marijuana that is anything harder is a absolute danger to his life.
I am speaking as knowing a young person from a frum community who over doesed and halach liolamo.
So if this were me, I wouldn’t have so many illsions about that aspect of this. You seemed to be unable to deal with that part.
But you haave to determine. also alchohol if drunk too much of is toxic and kills. that is people do die from drinking too much.
I don’t like either candidate at all and am planning to vote for Gary Johnson.
My daughter just got engaged! some of you may recall that she wasn’t that interested a few months ago. I spoke with her a couple of times. I said alot of what we see here.
I see her and her friends do try to introduce other singles their age. But they are in their early 20’s but some of the guys are late 20’s.
Not just inviting the single but try to invite both sexes singels.
or better would be to introduce them to suitable matches, if meals are harder for you.
If the issue is how is he affecting the other siblings, this is a new separate issue. I have seen where one other sibling is affected in some way although you don’t know if that would have happened anyway. But if you think that the others are being affected, this is your call, would you be willing to sacrific so to speak the first son, for the sake of the others. THis means throwing him out but I wouldn’t do that but would offer him a program that he can board at. But its your call, how important is frumkeit for you regarding the other children.
My heart breaks for you. I think I would draw the line at public CHilull Shabbos. since he shares a room then he can’t do anything there, in the bathroom he can listen to the ipod. I do think he can influence the other children negatively in the sense of following your Derech. It does seem that he does not feel like he has to listen to anything you say so maybe the tough love time has come.
Prior to this move, I would ask you if you have gone for family counseling yet with him. this would be helpful.
I also would be interested approx. how old he was when you moved to EY this can cause alot of problems for youth, I am speaking from personal experience. If they dont’ make friends in the new community, as happened with me, then I started to feel an abandonment of parents love, i.e. why they did this to me.
this sort of feeling if he has it might come up in therapy and could be road back at least for a better relationship.
Well he is in a citizens patrol so first of all, what right does he have to follow someone. We had citizens patrols when I lived in Queens. The process is to contact the police if you see something suspicious, period. George was taking matters into his own hands, when he followed the boy and this is a problem if it will be expanded by others.
I do not want to live in a society where armed citizens can follow me because they think that I look suspicious.
He did kill someone. Please do not resort to name calling me. This case is too complex and has much grey area. He should have been arrested because on what basis did he kill this teen. Evidence and all this will be certified in court.
I have heard the opposite case of white deranged using N word with blacks present and nothng was done. only thing about a weapon like mace it has to work, you have to test it periodcially.
I do think you should make contact with one of the Rabbi’s or orgnizations mentioned, asap.
One thing about the computer, there is you know alot of Torah that can be read and listened to, different Shiurim or many topics. Possibly different sort of frum communities that may be of interest.
Realistically, lets say, he is likely interested in meeting girls this way. I am only surmising this sort of social thing i have no clue.
You aren’t going to stop this Taavah you know. So maybe funding or making sure he has the Shiurim on MP3 or the interenet is your prerequisite. IN your own time, investigate who is a dynamic speaker or MAggid shiur online. I personally like Rabbi Mansour, he has a warmth and intellectual rigor that your son may relate to.
But looking and meeting girls you can’t prevent I don’t think if he is so inclined.
everyone has a different threshold to crazy behavior.
I knew someone in my extended family who was abusive to her mother publicly, non stop. If this were my wife I would demand that she stop this but the husband seemed to take it in stride. And who knows how she treated him but maybe his character was such that he wants to stay non divorced no matter what.
so how does this be a partnership, isn’t this evil partnership yet they are not divorced.
about the computer, I don’t see a problem as long as you are able to monitor what is going on there, no illegal activity of any kind. What is it he does there?
what sort of garbage on his MP4? I think this is the problem. He considers these songs as culture. I also don’t care for rap music lets call it. But for young people this music speaks to them.
I would be most concerned about substance abuse at this point. The nature of that is that, they see that a little alchohol or pot is not so bad, so then they are offered the hard stuff, which is both addicting and toxic.
I would forget about frumkeit for a while. He may likely come back when he sees that there is nothing out there but
he has to see this not be told. like others have suggested you should contact those Rabbanim and others who work with kids in this situation. It’s very likely they have learnt the nature of the beast and their advice is best.
You should also you must determine if there is substance use and abuse involved. This changes the dynamic. If so, you have to focus on healing that first. It depends which drugs but some are very toxic and fatal.
I would not argue Hashkafa at all, but just invite him to all religious events as normal whether he goes or not. Get him Seforim also that may be of interest, not Gemara per se maybe books by Rabbi Twerski also, best of luck, please let us know how things go.
There is no one reason why some go otd. Usually something traumatic is one place to start. This can be a molestation not necessarily by a frum person, or parents not providing a loving home Within a loving relationship. There are many factors. SOme families divorced and 1 went otd and the others did not so how do you explain that? Overall it is more important to ensure that while they are otd that they are doing something constructive. For now they don’t see the beauty of Yiddishkeit, hopefully they will in the future.