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If I am special because I am unique. Then everyone else is also special! This is healthy self esteem.
But, If I am special because I am BETTER than you, then only I can be special! This is also called narcissism and is the root of this issue.
A number of years ago I was near Rabbi Noach Weinberg at a Shabbos dinner. A girl approached him and asked how a person would know if someone is their basheert.
Rabbi Weinberg told her that Leah Imeinu’s basheert was Esav and that she davened very hard not to get her basheert!
He also told her not to worry about it and to look for a frum boy who knows what marriage is all about.
Big Deal. Please enlighten us as to who exactly these reputable doctors are and what research they rely on.
No matter who you marry, you are settling! It is not possible to know definitively that there is not someone out there who would have been better. This would also apply to couples who have been happily married for 50 years!
Therefore, find a person who shares your core values, has congruent life goals, who you find attractive and who finds you attractive and get on with it.
That is as good as it gets.
Golfer. All I meant was that in my experience it is better to go to a Rav who does not know either side in the potential shidduch, as it can save the Rav from being placed in an awkward position. It was merely said out of sensitivity to the Rav and was most certainly not meant in any way to cast aspersions or bring anybody’s integrity into question. Obviously, one is free to see it differently.
Nevertheless, the fact that you launched into a tirade against me, without bothering to find out what I actually meant and to compound matters imputed the most odious connotation possible to what I posted without considering any more favorable alternatives, speaks volumes.
Moreover, the fact that you paint Basar ve Chalav sheilos and Shidduch sheilos with the same brush, also speaks volumes. People are not objects!
In these matters one should bend over backwards to be as positive as possible about anyone they are asked about. This is a simple manifestation of Ve Ahavta L’Reacha Kamocha.
This being said, there are situations where their are substantive issues such as drug abuse, violent temper etc. that need to be disclosed, which can also be a manifestation of Ve Ahavta L’Reacha Kamocha!
When asked about a shidduch, the moment they say that they are inquiring about so and so, if serious issues immediately spring to mind, play for time. Say something like, “I know who they are but am not too familiar myself. Ask me your questions and I will ask around for you and come back to you”. Then, recheck the facts, discuss the issue with a neutral Rav, and only then revert and give the negative report.
I hope this or some variation of it helps.
If the local Torah bookstore is having a sale on Mesilas Yesharim, it is best not to give it, because the Bar Mitzvah boy may get twenty copies and feel like people are trying to tell him something!
Try seminar yerushalayim
There seems to be a common theme here, that usually when one party says no after one date, the other party also said no.
That would seem to indicate that a shidduch is not going to make it and it is best to move on for all concerned.
The problem is when one side wants another date and the other doesn’t. It may then be worthwhile for both sides to agree in advance that if one side wants another date, the other side is obligated to go out again.
This may seem radical on the surface, but it would most likely stop many good shidduchim being ruined prematurely.
That is the height of unfair, expecting someone to be emaciated and a cordon bleu chef at the same time!
If it makes people feel better, Cecil was 13 Years old. Lions generally live to between 10 and 16 years in the wild and longer in zoos (where they are unlikely to be killed by younger, stronger lions or catch diseases). He had a good innings!
Also, the money that this guy paid for the kovod of killing an unsuspecting animal does go to conservation and as such it is not wasteful.
I do however find the whole thing abhorrent!
The first thing to disabuse yourself of is that there is such a thing as higher or lower expectations. The reality is that if you find a boy that you can connect with and that treats you with respect and with whom you can build a life together, than you have achieved the very best FOR YOU. Regardless of what is or isn’t on the shidduch CV.
You need to make it clear to your parents that it is your life and that YOU are the one who is going to live with the consequences of being married to whomever it is you marry. Therefore, it is only right and just that YOU have the final say.
I do not know your parents or circumstances, so I am not sure to what extent what I am about to say applies to you, so if I am totally off the mark, feel free to ignore it.
An unfortunate blight on our communities is called living through our children. Which, put another way means that my self-esteem is dependent on my son being the next Vilna Gaon or my daughter marrying the next R. Akiva Eiger (or at the very least someone I can pass off as being some sort of prodigy). Such people seem to regard their childrens’ ultimate happiness as some sort of annoying inconvenience and certainly nothing to be concerned about.
Very often this dysfunctional attitude is compounded by a chronic need to impress or have the approval of others. Again, the ultimate consequences for our childrens’ happiness is ignored.
This is manifestly unfair and in some ways is a perversion of how Bnei Torah should view the world.
Practically, what you need to do is make a time to talk to your parents. It may be a good idea to go out for coffee or dinner and then lay it out for them. Be very clear that you have thought through what you want out of life and insist that they respect you and your choices. Remember, you are choosing to live a different type of Torah life to the one they may have mapped out for you, but it is still a Torah life and thus a valid choice that is your sole prerogative to make.
Hopefully, they will respect that and there will be no issue or problem. If they can’t, you need to be clear in your own mind that they are the ones with a problem, not you. At that point, you may want to enlist a Rav/Rebbitzen that can talk to them on your behalf. Be respectful but firm and it will all work out in the end.
Hatzlocha Rabbah.
It is a good idea to go in because:
1. It is an opportunity to gain some insight into her family. What is the atmosphere in the home like? Do the parents try to make you feel welcome/comfortable? How do they interact with each other? Is the home clean/tidy? etc.
2. A glimpse at the potential shvigger is a preview of what you may be married to thirty years hence!
3. It is also an opportunity to make a good impression. You never know, she may be the one who needs convincing and by going in and being a good ambassador for yourself you may just be recruiting her parents as allies at a later point. Beware that this can have the opposite outcome, so be careful!
Excellence. What of the Ribono Shel Olam? Maybe its H’ who watches over us? Anyway, H’ based as opposed to Rebbe based would be the normative Jewish position.
BTW, what you call a “Rebbe” experience, a Christian would call a JC experience. Just saying. The common denominator is that you really have to believe while discounting any rational explanation. That BTW is why us non-believers just don’t get it!
It is noteworthy that every mention of the (late) Lubavitcher Rebbe in the original post is in the present tense. Just saying!
Tznius is primarily a mode of behaviour. Mode of dress is an important part thereof, but is not the entirety of it. Halochas must be observed and I am not suggesting otherwise. Nevertheless, there are many aspects of tznius that simply cannot be legislated and therein lies the difficulty.
One could keep all the halochas, but still be un-tznius. Example, a woman who keeps every chumra known (and unknown) insofar as she dresses, yet chews gum like a cow chewing its cud while drooling. Plainly this is not what we expect from a Bas Yisroel. Or, who blocks up the street while fetching her kids from cheder and ends up inconveniencing other people. Or, who screams like a fish-wife.
With men, it could be a case of inconveniencing other passengers on an airplane because they needed to say a 20 minute shemoneh esrah. Or, driving an over-the-top car in order to show off one’s wealth. Or, for that matter ostentatiously keeping chumros to show the world how frum one is – if you’re sincere do it quietly!
My experience has been that dressing tznius is often a direct outgrowth of behaving tznius, more than as an obsession with the technical requirements of dressing tznius. Notwithstanding, that the halachas must be observed regardless.
In South Africa, many years ago, our Rabbonim worked with the government to make a law that a civil divorce cannot be given in the presence of a “religious impediment to remarriage”. What this means practically, is that a get-refuser opens himself up to some very serious consequences, such as very substantial alimony (we call it maintenance) and any order the presiding judge in his/her unfettered discretion chooses to make. This theoretically could also include contempt of court and a stint in jail. South African jails are not known for their Daf Yomi programmes or Glatt Kosher cuisine!
I am sure that some would want to say that this is a get-meusah. This is not for certain reasons which distinguish this approach from the case in Rav Eliyashev’s teshuvah. Firstly, we are a unified community and have ONE Beis Din, which means that there is no shopping around (by either side)for sympathetic dayanim, this in and of itself eliminates a big portion of the problem and a lot of fighting. Secondly, things are arranged so that by the time the woman goes to court, the husband is on record as having refused the get AFTER being instructed to give it by the Beis Din and as such any sanction made against him by the court is with the full reshus of the Beis Din and as such the get is not a get meusah.
The upshot of this is that we have developed a culture of not tolerating get refusal. Period. We have very few cases of Agunos and in fact,the most recent case lasted for at most a couple of months and the husband who was placed in Cherem gave in before the matter even got to court, because his lawyers no doubt explained to him what was in store for him. Therein lies the value of this approach, it is a highly effective deterent. Also, it sends an unequivocal message that we do not stand for people abusing the Torah in order to abuse/control other people and that is a genuine Kiddush Hashem.
In the event of all out nuclear war, it makes very difference where you live!
Sometimes it seems that the same people who are experts in finding the most outlandish chumras in Kashrus, Shabbos etc, are also experts in finding the most bizarre leniencies when it comes to smoking. Just saying…
I think they should save some of the $400K for the divorce attorney!
The question to always ask in this type of situation is: What has the “yichus-blessed” individual achieved in their life besides being born from the right womb?
Yichus is NOT a proxy for one’s own accomplishments.
You may well find that there is an inverse correlation between the degree of yichus obsession and actual accomplishments!
I have a sister-in-law who is a great-granddaughter (different surname) of one of the gedolim of the last generation. When going out with my brother-in-law, she never mentioned her lineage! In fact, we found out (in passing) from a third party. That’s genuine yichus and more importantly CLASS!
If it is the right shidduch, it should withstand a few more dates!
One date is a very short time to make the biggest decision of your lives.
If subsequent dates do derail things then it is clear that it was not the right shidduch!
Hatzlocha Rabbah!
The shidduch system is not really a system, it is a set of socialised norms that have evolved over time. That is why shidduchim are done differently in different parts of the world. Note that there is a wide world beyond NYC!
The problem is that what has evolved has evolved because of social pressures and agendas that have nothing to do with creating healthy marriages. For example:
1. Money. The reality today is that people want to live in comfort. Let somebody else pick up the tab… The “system” now legitimises this.
2. Social status. The Satmar Rebbe said many years ago that in all his years in America he met very few people who made shidduchim for their childrens’ sake. If we are honest about it, things are far worse today.
3. False Righteousness. Today, we are too fahrfrumpt for our own good. Nothing is good enough and we keep “chumras” that our ancestors would have laughed at. Unfortunately, as a whole (even though there may be exceptions) we have not become better people than our ancestors who were less fahrfrumpt then we are!
The result of this is a “system” that is almost purpose built to ensure that two young people have no idea who they are marrying! All the checking out beforehand in most instances (where absurd questions are asked)is counterproductive as in most cases, there is no way to verify the voracity of what is found out.
The result is the mess and the pain that we see today. The answer is to relook at our values…
I think one should not exclude children from divorced families automatically, but one would need to be far more circumspect and cautious.
The crucial issue will boil down to whether the prospective shidduch understands why his/her parents divorced (for example the behaviour patterns and attitudes that lead to a broken marriage) and is motivated not to repeat the mistakes.
The research that was quoted by Lior only tells a part of the story. A far more important issue, which we are too quick to pass over, is to understand how those who manage to build successful functional homes (even though coming from broken homes themselves) manage to do so.
It seems that a motivated person (from a broken home) may be better than an unmotivated person from a dysfunctional unbroken home!
About 15 years ago, I was privileged to sit near R. Noach Weinberg ZT”L at a dinner.
During the course of the dinner, a young lady approached him and asked him how a person recognises their basheert. (Although I did not know this young lady, the impression that I got was that she was quite desperate to get married).
R. Noach answered her and said that the Gemara tells us that Esav was the basheert of Leah (Rashi says as much in Chumash) and that Leah cried (until her eyes were tender) and merited not to marry her basheert!
He then advised her to go find a frum boy who knows what marriage is all about!
Anonymous123, don’t look for signs. Be guided by your seichel. If there is something wrong, go discuss it with someone who truly understands these issues and has your interests at heart. Be prepared to walk-away, if so advised. Remember, you are the one who will live with the consequences of the decisions you make.
Hatzlocha Rabbah!
Lior. It’s not how many drop out in total, its whether more boys than girls drop out consistently!
DY. Another problem with the Age Gap Theory is that it does not account for the fact that the population has been growing for three generations and the norm has always been for boys to marry younger girls, just ask your parents and grand parents.
I do accept that the age gap may be the problem and I do accept that OTD may not be the problem.
What I am trying to demonstrate is that without a thorough study being done and actual hard data being gathered and analysed, anyone’s guess is as good as anyone else’s. This should not be a case of whose theory sounds best. It should be a case of the facts prove…
Also, in terms of my remark that OTD may be gender reversed by the chassidim, I may be 100% wrong. It is just a theory, which I do not have hard facts to substantiate. Likewise, Ivory probably does not have hard data to refute me with. As such, we end up theorising.
The long and the short of it, in my view, is that any intervention that is tried, even with the purest of intentions and genuine concern, is almost certainly doomed to fail if it is not grounded in very thorough research.
I did some “arm-chair” calculations and found that (ignoring all other factors) if boys go off the derech more than girls, say for argument sake 2% of boys vs. 1% of girls per year starting at say 15 years old, this compounds up by the time they reach their early twenties to produce exactly the crisis that we are seeing now.
Moreover, this could explain why the scenario seems to be reversed by the chassidim. Perhaps their girls go off more than their boys?
Remember, it is not a factor of large numbers going off (although there probably are). It is a factor of more of one gender going off than the other compounded over the teen years.
If I am correct in this, then the solution will not be social engineering to change the age when boys get married, as this will only succeed in changing the age distribution of the single girl population.
The solution will be to create a more tolerant society in which our children are given room to find their place.
Obviously, this is just a theory and would need to be substantiated by hard data which is in short supply! What it does do however, is show that the existing “age-difference” theory is flawed in that another factor can (at least mathematically) be shown to produce the same phenomenon.
Just saying!
In reality it is not. There may be circumstances where technical reasons can be found to refuse to give a get, but this is invariably not a wise move. The fact is that if a woman does not want to remain married forcing her will only keep her there in body but not spirit.
Also, it seems to me (although its obviously something that can’t be proven) that men who would not dream of withholding a get no matter what the circumstances tend to make good husbands and stay married!
I would venture to add that as a society we are not hard enough on get refusers. Get-refusal is nothing other than a form of abuse and needs to be treated with the same contempt that we reserve for paedophiles and the like.