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Ponevezher Rav was asked how is it someone like himself who served in the Sejm of Lithuania refrains from serving serving in the Knesset?
His Response:It is unaffordable.It is too expensive.
Q:How so?
In the Knesset,there would be a need to tear his garments regularly over the heresy that is said.
It is unaffordable
Ponevezher RavPonevezher
“Toi- thank you for your input. You have to explain to me,however, how RSR HIrsch zz’l could have made input in this, as he died in 1888, many years before the Zionist idea was even conceived. The only alyah that happened in RSR Hirsch’s time was in 1881- (called “bilu”), and that was mainly frum jews!”
Revisionism at it’s best.
So how was he criticized ‘from all over the map’ for being “anti nationalist”?
or that he was more suspicious of the nascent “Lovers of Zion” than almost any one of his colleagues?
Or that to this day articles come out calling choosing to call him too “German”
“parochial” ?
Or that his successor and son in law was one of R’Sonnenfeld’s biggest supporters on the continent,(who referred to him as the “Kosel Hama’aravi” )?
“That is clearly not historically true. Sometimes circumstances called for new outlooks on things. Otherwise I will wait for your threads decrying Chassidus along with Zionism. “
Certainly correct.
except Chassidus has had a track record of keeping the masses enthusiastically observant and more or less falling in on the BIG ISSUES,while
Zionism’s goals and track record are/have been the opposite
Everything recycled here could and should easily be demolished
For Example
“They met once, in 1935, and Rav Soloveitchik, who wasn’t yet a Zionist..”and was rather unimpressed with Rav Kook
cf.Holzer’s book
(that actually proves little .Different proclivities)
Rav Soloveitchik gave his definition of Zionist in 1975.Sounded
very non-Zionist
‘The charedi world is full of “new ideas”‘
Perfect.
They integrate with their focus towards the end goal
Without getting sidetracked like so many well meaning naive idealists (including those previously mentioned)
Hakatan,
Keep up the good work,
but you could do better than
“The whole strength of our faith is in mesorah, the faithful transmission of the Torah from Rebbi to talmid. Otherwise, anyone can make up anything they want and ch”V make a mockery of the Torah.
Now, if you want to take a different Rebbi with an equally valid mesorah from his Rebbi then that is one thing. But to invent your own new mesorah is quite another thing.”
Hakatan
Remain unfazed
A little light disperses alot of darkness
First and foremost we must lament too much tolerance of those who choose to sin,(which paradoxically it goes) hand in hand with Sinas Chinam
the most basic in religion and life is Don’t Do This
and oppose it with every fiber of your strength
Study and discover that EVERYTHING Else (murder included)pales in comparison
In short they, as much as they will pretend,mortally against religion and life
Otherwise you are better off dead
For some, their professed religion is poison “Sam Hamaves”
(Some ‘jews’ will excuse also euthanasia’giving high functionig animals human rights ,etc. etc.)
These people and their defenders must be thrown out of our people
and cease to exist
where in tarnation do you work
“R’Chaim Ozer grodzinsky was of the same view,”
hmm…R’Chaim Ozer Grodezensky specifically made havdalah on an incandescent bulb ,lest anyone come and say he allowed it’s use..
‘I think a major reason is because one need not “learn” the mishna berura, just read it and see the psak. The arush hashulchan on the other hand is really a summary of the sugya.’
plus one could rather easily misunderstand unless contemplated
‘I’d say that the acceptance of the MB over AhS is one example proving Prof. Hayyim Soloveitchik’s “Rupture and Reconstruction” theory correct.’
“Rupture and Reconstruction” which may have had just a bit of use when published in ’94,is very dated and a laugher that still it is quoted by modox.
Besides, his contradictory statements and his conclusions based on ignorance…but go ahead
to be clear
If done with self respect,it will go further.
they sense they’re wrong
‘Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance. It only creates a Mechitatz Barzel – a steel wall of hatred that blocks secular Israelis from possibly returning to observance.’
when and if done coherently,
au contrarie
Proof : scores of isrealis who become more religious and traditional,
when in chutz la’aretz
(As one explained:he realized to his surprise, Religious people
probably better off out of the state)
“Zionists had their own gedolim- Rav Kook, Rav YY Reines, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer, Rav Yosef Alkalai, Rav Aharon Soloveitchik, Rav Yosef Soloveitchik, Rav Menachem Mendel Kasher, Rav Benzion Uziel, Rav Haim David haLevi, etc.”
Good ,let’s go through them one by one
(if the moderators permit)
some admitted in quotes they had been naive
some were lightweights
some were (as you fraudently are aware)decades prior
virtually everyone of them militantly opposed ,in the forms that existed then,what passes as centrist(a meaningless term) zionism of today, or it’s diguises,
or Tel Aviv’ism
“Zionists had their own gedolim- Rav Kook, Rav YY Reines, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer, Rav Yosef Alkalai, Rav Aharon Soloveitchik, Rav Yosef Soloveitchik, Rav Menachem Mendel Kasher, Rav Benzion Uziel, Rav Haim David haLevi, etc.”
Good ,let’s go through them one by one
some admitted in quotes they had been naive
some were lightweights
some were (as you fraudently are aware)decades prior
virtually everyone of them militantly opposed ,in the forms that existed then,what passes as centrist(a meaningless term) zionism of today, or it’s diguises,
or Tel Aviv’ism
rabbiofberlin
for your own benefit
desist and surrender without honor
or
based on dozens of past comments which will displayed
a.your hypocritical one thing on one post another on the next
b.your support for whim and movement that goes against Torah
,when confronted your sheepish retreats
c..your appalling ignorance,
you will be turned into a mockery
waiting at the control pad
To sing the praises of the israeli army for protecting the jewish people is akin to praising of hard snow (e.g. to build an shelter) for saving one from the freezing cold
cf. Chazon Ish to mr. Ben Gurion.
That is only for the minority who have the correct intentions. For the rest, their misguided potential,
as R
Berel Soloveitchik put it, ispigul`First and foremost they fought their internal enemies…
which is what the chareidim are doing
“About Time: And how do you know that? Are you some secret service agent that knows everything? Didn’t think so. Stop trying to make points without proof, it gets annoying.”
Ever heard of FiveEyes
look it up
Yes.
uh, yah, i do. but actually, since im not actually american (as u can see from my name), it doesnt really apply to me unless i make a phonecall to the US.Another typical gullible canadian
EVERY advanced country is doing the same
Canada is a rather inept country.
Canadians are also a gullible people
This
But Canada is indeed a pretty good place to live. A government that is a better Friend to Israel and the Jewish people than any other in the world;proves it.
This gov`t has been better(excepting Mulroony) than the past half century,and they talk so flattering;but read their platform,and see them in practice.
Every country has myths about their past,
but Canada
s past as its`inhabitants are taught, is one big whole mythThere are multi levels
However, yes.
The full obligation applies ONLY to “Osei Ma’asei Amcha”
i.e. our “frum”
Oh Shrek,etc. are wrong except insofar some details
It’s complex
“Let us be very clear: the purpose of Zionism was and is to redefine what is a Jew and to change, our people, in their words, from a despised Jew to a proud Hebrew. This is, of course, shmad.”
Hakatan,
Even you are giving more credit than (many of)them deserve.
They wished to resolve the ‘judishe frage’.
The old purpose for which the jewish people represented(a supra nation which would bring the world up)and existed was unappreciated and unappealing.
They preferred the Riviera ,but felt guilty about it.
Menachem Begin for one understood (though his hatred for them was pathological), that the nazis were just another continuation of the present exile and attempted to abolish Yom HaShoah
“.. yet feel no problem learning, while living off the land, in a society that requires all of the things that a society would require- skilled professionals, laborers, doctors etc … a society that desperately requires a strong intelligence and military defense, particularly because of its close proximity to almost a billion of its worst enemies R”L. BH the country has provided funding for our yeshivas, financial and social benefits to the poor, largely including bnei torah (and the bad eggs who don’t want to learn but don’t want to work) that willingly choose a certain lifestyle. There is however, a seemingly unanimous lack of ???? ???? for all of this by the haredi. Clearly, the extreme secular are resenting the extreme religious for being on the receiving end, so they coined the term “share the burden”…
What we all need to do is make peace among ourselves and pray. And stop your kvetching already.”
Sure ” a society that desperately..”
,Necessity
Tell that to any senior official,you’ll get a smirk.
HaARETZ July’08 in an article on
Charedi men taking a year crash course for matriculation ,70 % scored above the national median of 400 with 15 % scoring above 700 and 45 percent above 610 (as compared national averages of 5 and 27 percent, respectively )
Proving that formal schooling is little than glorified babysitting (and brainwashing)
Rav Benzion Uziel, zt”l, had no issue with a woman becoming a judge.
Rav Uziel was always considered less than heavyweight
I don’t consider Rav Soloveitchik, zt”l, to be my poseq. There were quite a few areas where Reb Moshe was more meikil than him, and where his psak is more sensible (ie/ shtar mechira, ger katan, etc.)
Superb.
Rav “whatever I prefer”
“Daniel Rosen:
If it’s so pashut, the mods have nothing to lose by letting these kofrim duke it out with the real Jews.
If it isn’t, then there’s no reason for the mods to shut it down if they really want a place of discussion open to all (and they apparently don’t always, which is their right, I guess, but it’s still contrary to your point).”
Answer
“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”
“I’ve been burned here because many people have no respect for hashkafot other than their own.”
look in the mirror
DY: I blame..
I’ll take responsibility in the next world
with pleasure
typo
punctilious
personally
Mendelsson cultivated a perception of himself and acted the part accordingly.
We know now from his private letters (research by R’ Schwab) that the rot originated with him.
Even in his own terms, he was less Torah, more Kant
cf. Avos 1:3.
The Chasam Sofer saw right through it (which was an element in the detestation of him by the maskilim and the cynicism of their modox successors.)
“Shaul Lieberman?”
Revisionism
Eh?
“R’ Hutner tried to recruit him” to save him. He warned Lieberman that if he stays in JTS, he will be denounced on every possible occasion.
R’ Moshe Feinstein refused to grant recognition to his gittin.
(Then again R’ M. Feinstein wouldn’t recognize Rackman’s either)
Their personal observance nevertheless was more puntilious than some of the aforementioned names cited.
As aside, arch zionist Rabbi Shalom Gold, Rabbi Emeritus of Y.I. of Har Nof, told me personaly half a decade ago, that seruga wearing Elazar Stern is an unqualified “Rasha merusha”.
I can assume your desire to make the proof yet stronger.
yytz and takahmamash
Give your defintion
(We might be a different denomination)
This world has a purpose,
do you believe that?
“i think we begin a very slippery slope when we start judging how “orthodox” someone is and if we were to put ourselves to such a test who knows how we will fare”
Negative. Negative.
Don’t even think of trying that center left croc.
There is clear definition of who is Orthodox.
Personal observance is secondary. (Moses Mendelson was Orthodox? Shaul Lieberman? Avraham Burg?)
Feiglin, Katzele, and Ben-Dahan are Orthodox. Irrespective of disagreement of the application of certain mitzvos. The rest are either half or beyond the spectrum.
cause and effect
if you dare-
“They have hutzpah to use that phrase; the chalutzim actually contribute to society, instead of mooching off it.
Also, the vast majority of Israeli society could care less whether the Haredim are in the coalition or not. They’ve made themselves into a fifth column, and are maybe half a step better than the Arabs when it comes to that.”
then-
“I’m calling on the US to let the world give them the title of Apartheid and start to levy sanctions”
The anger at the boycott is not the exclusion from government. Had Labour won, it would have been in the course of events for them to be on the outside.
The chutzpah is on the Likud – Rightist government (albeit Likud tried). Chareidim gave Likud the majority in ’77 and ’81, saved Shamir in ’90 even though Peres offered them the better financial deal, and gave Netanyahu his majority in ’96 and ’09.
assuredly correct.
To paraphrase Churchill – I refuse to remain impartial between the fire and the fireman
Dr. Martin Sherman served for seven years in operational capacities in the Israeli Defense establishment. He was a ministerial adviser to Yitzhak Shamir’s government and lectured for 20 years at Tel Aviv University in Political Science, International Relations and Strategic Studies.
Dr. Martin Sherman
This is a war by proxy which (due to extreme lack for time) ought to be cut to the chase.
There are some who will use any rationalization, infinite apologia to blur their antipathy for the giver of the Torah and his adherents.
“What is your point? That we don’t need soldiers or workers? Are you really serious?”
Correct. Every military insider knows the same.
Israel’s economy is amazingly vibrant. The growth includes areas such as agriculture, high tech, energy, textiles, finance, etc etc. How do you contribute to it? Chareidim are an integral backbone to every element mentioned.
You know who started the “cottage cheese revolution” in the summer of ’11? A chareidi in Bnei Brak, not poster girl Dafna Leef.
You know who got Gilad Shalit out of captivity? Can’t tell you, but it was a chareidi.
What is your point? That we don’t need soldiers or workers? Are you really serious? Israel’s military is the best in the region. They have survived against all odds as a lamb among 70 wolves.
Lakewood fellow: You’ve been infected too?
Nebach
‘You said “So they would’ve all gone to America. Big whoop.
Nope. The Good old U.S.A (and every other country for that matter) wasn’t too keen on taking in Jews and really didn’t care less about em-read a little history.’
You blame them? 4/10 members of the Communist Party USA in 1939 were Jews. The only district that elected a socialist party member to congress three times in a row was the Lower East Side.
“read a little history.”
you want me to pull rank?
You said “So they would’ve all gone to America. Big whoop.”
You said,
“You mean to tell me that Israel/Palestine opened up their borders during WW2? No, actually the Zionists told the English not to let the European Jews in.”
“Of course it didn’t it was controlled by the British who cared about Jewish life as much as the Americans-which was not at all. As far as the second part of the quote above; that is simply a distortion of what happened, there was a limited amount of visas being offered by the British and the Zionists pushed for Zionists to get as many as they could- they didn’t encourage the British to not let yidden in to eretz yisroel the British didn’t want too because they like the Americans didn’t give a hoot about the Jews.”
Do read up a little, even just this thread.
Ever heard of the 6%? 10%? 5,000 pounds? The meeting with Emir Fasel in 1919?
Every step preventing Jews from entering Palestine until (and partially including, all their pious protestations notwithstanding,) ’39 White Paper was pushed onto the British by the zionists (Jabotinsky excepting).
Check the archives
Doubt it?
“That would/might get them away from the battlefield, but not out of the army. Israel is giving the charedim something even better, National Service.”
As MK Eichler put it, they want the chareidim to be their “chotvei mayim” and “shoavei eitzim”
what about the two who were kicked from iaf pilot course because their beards would affect “unit cohesion”
5/17/12
The Israeli Finance Ministry is crafting a proposal to induct chareidi men at age 20 into police and fire-fighting units. The plan aims to replace the Tal Law, following criticism by the High Court of Justice of inequality in the legislation, Haaretz reports.
…to the unrespected units.The new air fire-fighting unit,for example, is closed to charedim.
“Watch. Chareidim are a minority with no support anywhere in Israel other than themselves. They have no monetary or military power. I’m not advocating this, but it will be a lot easier than you think.”
Im so scared.
please be the advocate
“Honestly, you are same type of narrow minded bigot who believes all chareidim are lazy shnoorers who won’t lift a finger to help anyone other than themselves.”
So you admit you are narrow minded bigot.
YOU yourself wrote this on this thread-
“All I will say is this: If you truly believe that what Hashem wants is for all Chareidi Jews to refuse to work (legally) and just live on tzedakah, we live in different worlds. I guess you can try to justify your decision any way you like, twisting and turning whomever supports this untenable position, but anyone who has more than a eighth grade education will realize that this is totally unsustainable. Do you realize that in Israel and America, the view of chareidi life gets more negative every day? All we see are people who demonstrate against other religious Jews in Ramat Bet Shemesh, shnooring money to marry off their children, and refusing to do anything to help other Jews other than themselves.”
“Haing these bigotted views only increases the animosity that non-charedim have for chareidim. Is that really what you want? I guarantee you this will end badly Haing these bigotted views only increases the animosity that non-charedim have for chareidim. Is that really what you want? I guarantee you this will end badly”
Every secular knows precisely the opposite.
Too many chareidim have been living for too long between two worlds without choosing sides that has brought this on their heads.
I predicted these developments months and years ago.
I guarantee this is the beginning of the salvation.
“However, the hatred some of you have toward anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just plain wrong.”
I stand up (against any self-interest) for what is right.
Welcome to the club. You, ROB, etc. when faced with articulately with truth hide in your smokescreens.
The medine is the ultimate golus Jew, a debased shlimazel who succeeds at nothing, stripped of his gaon Yaakov . A little bent old survivor amus”h of the Churban, who lives in Williamsburg or Stamford Hill or Antwerp or in a Torah neighborhood in EY , whom these Zionists deride, and who truly did his share in rebuilding the Jewish people after the war, is the true “new Jew” along with his ehrlicher descendants
From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand, so called intelligence operatives in Central America covering for drug warlords and jails full of plain petty criminals.
“Good for you. Tell me something Kanoi. Who, exactly is a “gadol”?”
“Kanoi,you say that you actually don’t know the teretz — you just rely on the Gedolim who hold like that”
Kanoi, You are every bit wise to rely on those who have the expertise in life, meaning, and the purpose of it all.
Be not the slightest fazed. These characters and charalatans who grovel for anyone who pulls rank on them and heed the word of any half-baked “expert” with a post-graduate degree are the last to preach about thinking for oneself.