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Sam2 is correct according to the Rambam, Ramban, Minchas Chinuch, and most other Rishonim. Classifying something as a “mitzvah” is a dangerous business, and the Rambam wrote several shorashim on them. To be mlamed zchus to those who think shanim mikrah is a mitzvah, the Bihag does classify various d’rabbanans as mitzvos (though I am nearly sure he did not include shnaim mikrah) in his hakdama to the Bihag, so at least there is some Rishon (though the Rambam and Ramban in shoresh sheni in Sefer Hamitzvos both attack him for doing so) that thinks dirabbanans can be classified as a mitzvah.
yitaynigwut — The Rambam has very harsh words to say about those who claim the Torah’s mitzvos have no moral value. You’re treading on a minefield.
In Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik’s zt”l “The Emergence of Ethical Man,” he discusses this issue briefly. He concludes from a Torah perspective, eating meat is an immoral act, but Hashem gave a heter with restrictions (i.e., Kashrus) for various reasons. I don’t remember them off hand, but you can look in the book. It’s fantastic.
It’s interesting that major Rishonim (Rashi in specific) value EY so highly that they say mitzvos preformed outside the land do not even qualify as mitzvos!
While in camp I was learning Mesechet Arachin. A sugya was “Hakol Chayav BiZimun: Lerabos es HaEesha”. From all Halachick fronts woman are chiyav in zimun (the only question would be whether it would be Dirabanan or not). Even if “people” are doing it for the wrong reasons (and one would need a considerable amount of gayvah to claim he knew exactly why “people” were doing it) they still need to do it. Just as if one person wanted to put on Teffilan because it’s healthy (which it is, actually), he would still need to do it, even though he would be putting it on for the wrong reason.
My Rahm in a yeshiva I went to gave the following analogy: Davening in a minyan is like flying on a plane, but davening biyachidus is like being a bird. Meaning, on a plane, your going to get to you destination efficiently and effectively, but you don’t feel like your flying because your confined to the plane’s movements. Davening beyachidus may not get you very far, but you feel like you flying and exploring the realms of teffilah and connectiong with Hashem.
Shrek: The Gemara rejects that Havah Aminah on Shavout 30a.
The Gemara (Shavuot 30a) discusses this. It says because the part of the pasuk that says “and when two men will stand” (Devarim 19:17) is referring to witnesses. Men can, woman can’t.
I never said anything about going to college. I actually don’t think people should attend secular colleges.
I think it possible you may be misrepresenting “bitul Torah”. Bitul Torah is not engaging in something that isn’t Torah, bitul Torah is engaging in wasting time. Why, then, is it called “bitul Torah”? Because engaging in other activities are necessary and beneficial and fulfilling, and you are being mevatel torah when you are doing nothing of value, because it is then you should be learning.
ark: Sorry if I gave of the impression I was pushing some sort of agenda… I just follow the Rambam, Ramban, Meiri, Malbim, Megilat Esther, Aruch LaNer , Ramah, Sforno, Rav Hirsch, Rogatotchaver, Chazon Ish, Rav Yosef Dov, Rav Shacter, Rav Willig, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Twersky, Rav Aharon, and all the other gedolim who believe that science has value, but you and everyone els can of course disagree with them.
Actually, it is a mitzvah meduorasiah to be healthy: v’duvkuh bo. I also believe that just because something is not Torah does not constitute it as “bitul Torah.” Something of value (any one of the seven Chachmos Ha’olam, any mitzvos, or chasadim) is not bitul Torah.
The same reason shaking a lulav isn’t bityl Torah. Some things need to be done. Most people will tell you that learning science is a kiyum of ahavas haborei, which is a mitzva duariessah. I don’t really see how being mekaim a mitzvah could be bitul Torah.
I don’t think anyone (save a few Torah U’Madda fanatics) would say most people need a Phd level understanding of anything (unless it’s for a profession). I think a basic college level understanding of the 7 Chachmos Haolam (as defined by the Rishonim) is plenty.
yitayningwut: I don’t know of anyone personally (except my Roshei Yeshishiva) who are actually learning every second they have. For example, instead of posting on the Yeshiva World you can read about psychology or math or history on wikipedia. Or when talking to a friend, which isn’t a Torah conversation (which happens all the time; no one can properly deny this) it’s better to talk in chochma than in nonsense (see Rambam Hilchot De’ot, perek beis halacha dalet)
Some people said that if you write it down, that is OK. However the gemara that I quoted above does not think so. I don’t think you will find ANY halachick justification for what you are doing. More likely than not, you would also be over an isur midoriasah
To the OP: This is actually discussed in Mesechet Arachain (around daf 20). I believe the Gemara forbids it on account of it being theft. However, it is possible that a gabbai may do this, though I do not recall the gemara perfectly.
It may be bitul Torah if you learned science while you were supposed to be learning gemara. Just as it would be bitul Torah to shake lulav while you’re supposed to be learning gemara.
If you are not engaged in Talmud Torah, studying science is a kiyum of the mitzvah of ahavas haborei. You can come to love hashem by seeing just how amazing his world is. You can see the quantum-complexity of an electron cloud to the biological harmoniousness of the human body. This is a mitzah miduarrisah.
There a two possible reasons why he is a kofer.
He has no desire to believe in God, in which case you (no offense, but you know its probably true) can’t do anything about it.
Or, he rationalized that God doesn’t exist. (Now of course you say, “No! It’s not rational! Believing in God makes more sense!” Yes. Shkoyach. I agree. But people still do this.) But this also stems from a certain element of arrogance and close mindedness as well. If its the latter, call up someone who’s an expert in kiruv
How is giving a bracha a mitzva?
Why shouldn’t everyone study science?
Even if the current Kollel system would only allow people to learn for a few years, it would still be unprecedented. The Kollels that existed in Europe only had a select few learning in them, and they were expected to become a Rav of a town or a Rosh Yeshiva after they graduated Kollel (which is YU’s system), but the idea where everyone went to Kollel never existed.
Write about it.
Read a book. Preferably some happy-go-lucky book that more or less creates its own world (Redwall or anything by Edward Eager). That’s always my go to method.
ItcheSrulik: Do you know where Rav Shneur learns this concept from? I have a very hard time believing this, for the current Kollel system Lakewood uses now did not exist before Rav Aharon Kutler.
Can anyone provide a source to say that one has on obligation of any sort to support someone in learning?
ItcheSrulik:
1) R Chaim in pesachim (somewhere within the first few blott of the second perek; sorry I don’t remember were)
6) I won’t be able to give you a makor for that sorry. I was talking to my dad about this who told me the various times to wait for Motzei shabbos (72,92,1/8 of the day 1/6 of the day). I asked him if anyone actually keeps 1/6, and he said maybe some really radical briskers do.
8) As a result of this, some briskers don’t wear tzitzit on shabbat (see the ba’al hamor and ramban commenting on the ba’al hamor who paskens like the tanna kamma in menachos 38a (i think the ba’al hamor is somewere in mesachet shabbat though) and the rashi to eruvin 73b to see why). My dad said the funniest were the people who didn’t wear tzitzit but were somech on the eruv for other things
Derech HaMelech: Someone who doesn’t sit in Kollel all day is certainly not mevatel torah. The Rambam says in numerous places that other mitzvos need to come before Talmud Torah, or els nothing would ever get accomplished, because people would be m’chuyav to learn every second of the day.
MichaelC: Did your Rav explain why you can’t?
I get funny looks for my kipa sruga all the time. It might not have caused the issue, but it certainly didn’t help. If we plan on bringing mashiach at some point, we may want to consider doing something about this achdus issue…
tro11: I was not quoting a story about the Netziv. The Emek Davar is the perush the Netziv wrote on Chumash.
Brainy: It seems as though your making a logical jump from using the fact that every Jew must fulfill his potential to justify the current kollel system, which by the way was actually invented by Rav Aharon Kotler. The current Kollel system Lakewood has now did not resemble the Kollels in europe at all. If anyone wants, I can provide source material for this
The Shulchan aruch and mishna brura say it isn’t tzniut, however R Moshe said now its no longer considered untzinuit, so its permissible.
ItcheSrulik: We probably don’t need to give tochacha at all now adays anyway. In Arachin (around daf 17) the gemara says that tochacha doesn’t apply in the times of the amoraim (except one big tzadik), so kal vachomer how much more so in our times. Aside from that, the gemara later says anivus shelo lishma (i.e. humility, which would constitute not giving tochacha at all) is better than tochacha lishma, meaning that faking anivus (which will ultimately lead to anivus; see the first chapter in rambam hilchot de’ot) is better than tochacha.
In fact, if one would be so into taking on chumras for themselves, I’m going to list a few here. On shabbos, due to a safek brachos (see the R Chaim in the second perek of psachim) one should not make a mezonos, for it may require a hamotzei on shabbos. Be makpid on the GRA who says that for kiddush bemakom seuda, one needs to have bread (which means no more kiddushes in shul unless you wash). Do not say the bircas hashacher (shelo asani goy, etc.) until immediately after you do the corresponding action (see Rambam Hilchot Brachot). Do not drink milk or milk products at all. (R Shachter does this, because its possible that most cows used for milking are treifos). Instead of waiting 72/34 minuets for shabbos to be over, wait 1/6 of the day. Don’t be makpid on any aruvin. As a result of not being makpid on aruvin, do not wear tzitus on shabbos (see ba’al hamor and ramban on the ba’al hamor in mesechet shabbos who holds like the tanna kamma on menachos 38a and rashi on mesachet eruvin 73b), assuming you don’t wear techailes. Be makpid on chadash/yashan.
I think that many people mistakenly assume some things about chumras. The most glaring of which is that chumras make one closer to Hashem. I don’t think that this is necessarily true. Chumras do not generate piety, nor do they make one more holy. Rather it is the reverse. A holier person who feels more fearful of heaven will take on a chumra to stay further away from sin. It doesn’t work both ways. In fact, taking on chumras itself is a very shaky situation. One really needs to be sure that he or she is taking it on because of a fear or love of Hashem, not because that’s what is in style. Personally, I am not so afraid of heaven (unfortunately) that I feel I should take on Cholov Yisroel. My fear of heaven wouldn’t drive me to do it, if I would do it, it would be because everyone else was, and it looks “bad” not to, which is the wrong reason.
Brainy, I don’t think every Jew is obligated to become a Talmid Chacham. I don’t think you’ll find any halachic sources to support you, because not everyone is capable of being a talmud chacham. This, among many others, was a point addressed in the shiur. In fact, the Netziv on parshat Eikev and Shlach (i don’t know the passuk in Eikev off hand, but it was the last Emek Davar on Shlach) says the opposite. The Netziv breaks clal yisroel down into four categories. The leaders, who’s cheif obligation is yirat hashaem (not to be a talmud chacham; not even talmud torah for that matter), secondly there are the talmidai chachamim, who’s chief obligation is to be oisek in torah and be makpid on the mitzvos. the third is the ba’al habatim and the fourth is the women and children. The Netziv explains that the pasuk in eykev teaches that Hashem wants different things from different people.
Before you become appalled, perhaps you may want to look into the topic further.
There is a shiur from Rabbi Daniel Rapp on the YU website.
This shiur delves into the negative side of the current system. Feel free to disagree, but I reserve the right to be equally appalled at the system you advocate.
edited for weblink
Chein: I once heard I shiur on this very topic, and the Chofetz Chaim was quoted as having said this. Perhaps I am misquoting him to an extent, and I’m sorry but I don’t have a source. Take it on my word if you want.
I have a few Chumras that I doubt most people keep:
1) You can’t make a mezonos on shabbos
2) You should wait 7 days from rosh chodesh before making kiddush levana
3) You need to have kiddush with bread following (i.e. kiddush bemokom seudah, whereas seudah is defined as pa’as as opposed to mezonos which most people use)
4) Not to fast on any fast day except yom kippur and tisha bi’av (R chaim soloveitchik did it, as he was super machmir on pikuach nefesh
5) to say all the bircas hashacher immideatly after doing the corrosponded action (see rambam hilchot brachot)
6) to wait 1/6th of the day as opposed to 72/34 minuets for shabbos to be over
7) every lunar eclipse you must go out and buy a plum from the market take its seeds and shove it through your neighbors door crack. If he notices then you must spin around three times saying “siman tov umazal tov yehey lonu ul’chol yisroel”. if he does not notice then you rip your clothing and fast for a fortnight. (sefardim do 2 fortnights)
8) (kidding about 7). Not to use any aruvin at all
9) because one doesn’t use eruvin, to be choshesh the ba’al hamor that says techalis is meakev (see menachos daf 38b) and the rashi in eruvin (71a), some don’t wear tzitzus on shabbos (unless they hold of techailes)
Each time needs to be of a different “level”. What that means is the first time go up to him yourself. If he says no, the second time go up to him with two people (which will most likely compel him to say yes). If he still says no, go up to him with more (like 5?).