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A600KiloBearParticipant
BS”D
For any and all problems – the better part of a bottle of scotch or vodka, or even arak, consumed very quickly and on an empty stomach. Helps make me forget whatever problem I even thought I had before…………….
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
There are enough reasons to believe that the renovated houses will be transported to EY, and even a source (no time to check) that says the whole world will be transformed into kedushas EY.
Even the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA said that we have to prepare for 20 years ahead while living with the reality that Moshiach could come every minute.
When I jokingly told a Chabad shaliach who needed an expensive piece of property in the most expensive place in the US that if he waited 10 minutes he could get it for $2 because everyone would be moving to EY, the above was his very serious response.
Also for the record the song referred to in a prior post is by Abie Rotenberg and is called Neshomele.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
It will be announced that “Hashem Hu HaElokim,” with the same tune as “Hashem Hu Malkeinu” but including some minor word changes to reflect the fact that there is no more “shitas hakoifrim”, will be the new anthem of the Kingdom of Yehuda veYisroel.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
I would like to meet the gedoilim of all the previous generations, in particular those who lived during my own time but whom I was not zoiche to meet.
I would like to see Reb Yom Tov Ehrlich in concert with Lipa, accompanied by the Levi’im (who I guess would be led by R’ Boruch Levine).
And I would like to stand in the azarah on a hot day and whistle for a waiter to bring me a cold Mei Eden (not the overpriced stuff sold under that trademark today but real water from Gan Eden), and see that said waiter is none other than Barack Hussein Obama.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
The secular Jew feels very left out during the winter holiday season and it is exactly now when he or she needs to see a reminder that he or she is Jewish and should be proud of it, even though we know full well that it is not chas vesholom the equivalent of a tree or lehavdil any sort of nitel scene. I know because while today I volunteer at least one night with my fellow Chabad Chassidim (tomorrow night this year), when I was a little boy I asked my mother whether we could have a tree that year when she took me to Macy’s during this season.
That is why we light the menorahs outdoors, and in the end it is usually Jews who give us problems with permit related complaints etc (cf the ACLU years ago). The anti-Semitic actions come from the lowest strata of society who would have sadly found a shul to vandalize instead (perhaps because they are reminded at this time by parents, extremist galochim etc of their belief that the Jews killed yoshke).
(The Admou”r meCreedmoor prefers to light large menorahs indoors, near an open gas valve or a barrel or two of kerosene, but his is a minority view and he lights from Dec 25 to Jan 1 anyway because he doesn’t want to celebrate a tzioinish yom tov!)
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Mechel Schwartz is a Ponzi scammer and insurance fraudster who manages to get a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity, so that he is sent off to a beis mishegoyim. As soon as he arrives, Schwartz, a haimishe oisvorf who hasn’t kept Shabbos in 30 years, demands all of his religious rights as a Jew, including glatt kosher food, and exemption from all therapy on Shabbos.
All is going well until one day, his psychiatrist, Dr Goldstein, catches him on Shabbos not only smoking a cigar, but trying to sell him smuggled Cuban cigars for $50 each.
“Schwartz, what are you doing to me? I got you kosher food, no basket weaving on Shabbos and Yom Tov, a Shabbos timer, permission for your wife to bensch licht in your room, and THIS is what you do to me? Smoking on Shabbos, and selling phony Cuban cigars for five times the right price besides?”
“Dr Goldstein, you forget, I’m criminally insane!”
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
By all means Ani Maamin (the version from the churban).
Very distant second place would be a special version of “Yiddele” recorded by Lipa for Zichron Shloime Refuah Fund. If someone has a copy or can tell me where to download it I’d very much appreciate it. The song is free of charge to download and I lost my copy.
Also “Moishele” by Isaac Honig which was circulated at the time of Mumbai would share that distant second place.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
You do not drink either carbamide or hydrogen peroxide when you use it in the mouth. You apply the carbamide or rinse with the hydrogen. The carbamide is a little easier to use because it is in gel form and it does taste better.
Dentists have been advocating rinsing the mouth with simple hydrogen peroxide for many years now.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
The medication sold for canker sores is carbamide peroxide gel, which generates oxygen that apparently cleanses and removes the sore. However, I wonder what advantages it has to simple hydrogen peroxide which does the same.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
The rov of a shtibl on a busy commercial street was shocked to discover security camera footage proving that the fire damage caused to his shtibl by the incineration of the neighboring kosher butcher shop was not an act of anti-Semitism. Instead, it was the work of the butcher himself, who torched his own shop and let the fire just scorch the shtibl so that it looked like anti-Semitism.
In order to get the insurance due to him and to get an innocent local kid off the hook, the rov had to testify against the butcher, his childhood friend, who was aptly named Feivish Feuerstein. Keeping in mind the halachos involved, the rov was very, very reluctant to testify in a non-Jewish court, but he knew he had to do so nevertheless. He also knew that it was far from being Feivish’s first incendiary offense, as the store had been torched several times in the recent past.
The judge asked: “Rabbi, how well do you know the defendant? What can you say about him?”
And the rabbi replied: “Oy, your honor, I have known Feivish since we were children in the old country. Let me tell you something, all his life, he was a very special person. He did eveything with such a bren, you know, such a fire, he davened mit a bren, he learned mit a bren, and it was such a great fire, it always spread from one place to another, from his store to my shil, you know what I mean…”
Needless to say, Feivish now learns in Federal Koilel.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Welcome aboard. Hopefully this will mean a return to the old days of YWN, when posts which clearly have no place on a forum called Yeshiva World were summarily rejected or at least allowed to be contradicted on no uncertain terms.
I continue to lurk for the most part and will return when I see less krumkeit and more frumkeit.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
I am not a doctor and not much of a carpenter either for that matter, but I would volunteer in one second flat to dispatch Nidal Hasan Malik yms or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed yms with a blunt bladed circular saw. Ditto for the Mumbai terrorist whose name I conveniently forget.
I would have done the same for self proclaimed penitent Tookie Williams, for Ted Bundy, and most of all for Ted McVeigh, whose dispatch I celebrated with a bottle of champagne while listening to “Another One Bites the Dust” at the moment he began his descent to sheoil tachtis.
However, I am sure that there are other cases which are not as clear.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
I am totally shocked that the first post on this thread, which is pure kitrug, was allowed through.
It is one of the many reasons that I am inactive for the most part over the last few weeks.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Satmar Bikur Cholim is very active in the Hospital for Joint Diseases. Refuah Shelema.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Seriously, I would avoid the BF sales and instead look for online specials. There is an h1n1 epidemic, and high unemployment means that the risk of being pickpocketed in a crowded store is higher as well.
Besides, I always used to wait until the end of their holidays, in fact well into January and really score bargains at the 70 – 80% off level on very good schoire that was super-reduced for the end of the season.
A600KiloBearParticipantWhat about David Shiro and Yechezchel Sion? Their great
BS”D
And what of Yechiel Nahari and Moshe Haboucha? Actually the Yechezkel Sion and Moshe Haboucha recordings that I have access to are not really hazzanut but not really pop either.
I haven’t heard anything of David Shiro in ages, but suddenly I have become a fan of Yechiel Nahari since Jewishbroadcast.com started to play his albums.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Antistatic spray and then a brushing with a hat brush should do it. I’m with Jothar though and I keep my velvet yarmulkes for Shabbos. When this crop becomes unusable I am switching to cloth for Shabbos as well. Cloth was good enough for my Rebbe ZYA and it is more than good enough for me.
Regular cloth yarmulkes are hand washable (soakable).
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
You might also want to contact the Yitti Leibel Helpline 1-718-HELP-NOW (435-7669) as they have quite a bit of information for referrals. Hatzlocho.
November 12, 2009 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm in reply to: What Newspaper / Magazine do You Read / Trust Most? #681623A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
I read only “Der Shygetz” and “Der Vochedige Velt-Barimte Pashkvilke”.
Seriously I read only online Jewish news (this site, the other major one and the Chabad sites) as I cannot get any English language publications here. I should read Bakehila online as it is the haimishe publication I trust the most but for some reason reading Ivrit online is uncomfortable for me.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
If Carlebach sang Racheim in Creedmoor….
“So my holy brothers and especially my holy sisters, the sweetest of the sweet, the highest of the high, let me tell you about the holiest of the holy, the one who gets me to the highest of the high, mamash a gevald, my holy brother Raheem..” (now tune switches to Racheim)
“Raheem, I get my smokes from a kewl homeboy name’Raheem
On the corner of Utica and East New York Raheem
Raheem, Raheem, Raheem.”
“And I want you to know, I want you to know, last night I was wandering around Brooklyn, so lonely, so sad, such a sad night, because, you know, I have 42 different identities and I am trying to cash a Section 8 voucher and I am not having the right ID, and the man who cashes the checks, he says to me, your name is Martin Luther King? GET OUT, GET OUT of HERE I SAY, you are gonna make me land in jail, you no-good, you cheat, you liar, how far do you brothers think you can go with this shtick..”
“So I wander the streets again, because I am so sad, so desperate, so strung out I will do anything to get high, Lord, get me high, get me so high like the holy brothers who are getting high tonight, and then I see Raheem, and he says to me, so holy, so sweet, so high, I give you whatever you want today and you pay me tomorrow OK, after you cash yo’ check from Uncle Sam!”
“So holy, so high, Raheem, he gives me three joints, three joints that I share with two holy brothers I am meeting on the street, and we get so holy, so high, and I tell them, you know where I got this holy, this high, this sweet of the sweet, this weed?”
“Raheem, there ain’t no one else like Raheem,
He give out free samples too Raheem,
Don’matter if you goy or Jew, Raheem, Raheem, Raheem!”
“And there we are, me and these two holy brothers, so sweet, the sweetest of the sweet, now I want you to know, I want you to know, what is it again I want you to know, you know, it is mamash a gevald, sometimes this smoking, it is so high, so holy, so sweet, the holiest of holies, so you know, it makes me forget what I want you to know, so what is it I want you to know again,”
“Raheem, there ain’t no bro as holy as Raheem!
He let you get high fo’ nothin’ Raheem!
Raheem, Raheem, Raheem!”
“Now, you know, one of these holy brothers, he is so sweet, so holy, so special, such a holy man, sometimes you see the holiest people you know, in places that are not so holy, and they are not looking so holy, they are so special, so sweet, and he tell me, come, come with me, we go together to the holy brother Raheem.”
“Raheem, the sweet and the holy Raheem
With Raheem yo’ never alone Raheem
Raheem, Raheem, Raheem..”
“And we go to the holy brother Raheem, and the holy brother he tell the other holy brother, you know, it is mamash a gevald, this brother, he is so holy, so special, so sweet, he tell me you give us the holiest of the holiest of weeds and he doesn’t want you to pay..
Now Brother Raheem, you know, he gets so angry sometimes, it is so bad, so sad, so unholy to get angry and he say to the brother, you think I am crazy, I give you holy smoke fo’ nuthin? This brother he is a holy Chossid, a holy brother, from the Creedmoorer rebbe, the holy of holies, the sweetest of the sweet, the Creeeeeedmoorer, the tzaddik of all eight sections! But you, who yo’ be? How I know you pay me back? So he throw out the holy brother, and, you know, it is mamash a gevald, the holy brother, he is so poor, so sad, so oppressed, that he steals my wallet and runs away, and there he is going away with my 42 section 8 vouchers, so holy, so special is Section 8, like welfare it is so holy, so special, so pure….”
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
And what if our aveiros during the day were more along the lines of skila, sreyfo, hereg, henek or koreis?
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Wallak Aravit ata rootze lilmood? Just drive with any “ars” or “pushtak” in EY and you’ll pick up the important words (none of the following are obscene) Ya ahabel, naal andinak, yahrab abuk, ya qalb ibn khinzeer…(the conversation would then veer way outside the outer limits of propriety even in an NHL mikveh).
November 11, 2009 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm in reply to: Anyone Else Worried About Today’s Frum Music? #793132A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Skilah, srefah, hereg vechenek
Gaiva, taiva, …I forget how it ended…it ended in vegilui arayois , and other versions included asher boro yetzer horo boro Bnei Akiva, or (fill in your choice) Yeshiva among other variants.
Another version is asher boro dinei nefashois dinei mamoinos
Skila, sreyfa, hereg vechenek, something, koreis, malkois veknas..
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
One fine summer day, Gimpel called his mother from Machane Gan Oisvorf, a summer camp for kids at risk. They spoke for a few minutes and then his father took the phone:
“Gimpel, who is the learning director at camp? Is he good? What is he teaching you?”
“Tatty, he is a really cool dude who said he learned in a really rad yeshiva in Harlem. When I told Mommy what he was teaching me though, she said, don’t you dare tell Tatty that or he’ll pull you out of camp and give you such a potch!”
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Any type of goral system would work only for dates. Using it for marriage is tantamount to asking Sun-myung Moon YMS to act as your shadchan.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Time to put some of the shadchanim in the fridge, rather than boys or girls in the freezer!
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
A 600 kilo bear is what you need as a guard animal nowadays. Criminals have become brazen enough to steal dogs nowadays. Go for the white furred polar variety because the others sleep all winter.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
LOLOL I love the teacher’s surname! Shaatra, do NOT ask your grandparents what al-Zubi means (if it does mean that in Syrian dialect and I am sure it is spelled differently from the nivul peh that I am thinking of)!
I took one semester of Arabic at college and could not handle it because of the alphabet. I think had there been a word processing program in Arabic at the time I would have been OK; it takes artistic skills to write Arabic if you weren’t brought up with it and I am no artist.
The problem is not teaching Arabic, it is the Federal grant money and the rationale behind it. Arabic should be taught – but whenever possible by refugees from the Arab countries (Kurds, Lebanese notzrim, Arabic speaking Jews if any are left) who can also impart the sad history of minorities under Arab fanaticism. When I tried to study it, it was for the sole reason of being able to pick up a copy of Al-Ahram or Al-Ahabel and know what they are saying about us.
November 11, 2009 5:18 am at 5:18 am in reply to: Anyone Else Worried About Today’s Frum Music? #793117A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Letting kids gyrate and blow off some steam is what camp should be all about. Basketball is also played by the lowest elements of society. Should our camps stop playing it?
If it is the performer I am thinking of, he does a great job of letting everyone laugh and blow off some steam as they enjoy his antics on stage.
November 10, 2009 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm in reply to: Anyone Else Worried About Today’s Frum Music? #793102A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Once again. All posts regarding skila niggunim are FACETIOUS! :)).
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
It is interesting that anyone who represents Lakewood is even willing to participate in a debate against what may well be the replacement for the dying CONservative movement. I am sure Rav Feldheim is doing it with full Daas Torah and will be very successful.
November 10, 2009 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm in reply to: Anyone Else Worried About Today’s Frum Music? #793081A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
NB: My posts regarding the big four and the unpleasant psukim are meant as satire.
All we need is to limit kosher entertainment, and we will see even more kids (and adults) feel resentment toward Yiddishkeit and either move to the left or leave altogether.
Even the trash out there is a quarter step above pure goyish music, especially for those who are fighting hard not to fall off or who are slowly climbing up.
November 10, 2009 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm in reply to: Anyone Else Worried About Today’s Frum Music? #793061A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
If the beat would symbolize say skila or malkos, and the words would be quotes pertaining to aveirois, the songs would really inspire our youth and instill yiros shomayim in them.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Once you go into the tier system, you have the present shidduch system minus. Now I am convinced this is satire because the worst of the shidduch system is just a tiered goral.
On the other hand, that tiered goral to set up dates would eliminate some of the worst shadchanim of the “sheker diber kesef notel” variety. I dealt with one who vetted girls for me by height. Not that I care being large of build and therefore not intimidated or looking out of place with a taller girl, but besides being wildly incompetent and desperate for a thousand or so bucks, she must have included my hat when estimating my height. (This was years ago before I went off; she matched me with girls based mostly on height and ability to speak French [if anything Yiddish and Ivrit are important to me as opposed to English, let alone French which is my third language but one that I did use quite a bit in community and kiruv volunteer work years ago] and claimed they followed my Chassidus when they absolutely did not.)
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
There is and to the best of my knowledge has not been any brand of bleach sold under the brand name “ekonomika” alone for at least the past 25 years.
However, Sano (which I use for kiddush because it has a BaDaTz hechsher and has a nice lemon flavor), the off brands, and IIRC Cif all call their liquid chlorine bleach ekonomika, and non chlorine bleaches are marked “lelo ekonomika”.
If “ekonomika” were a brand name, that would be the equivalent of Pathmark’s bleach being called “Pathmark Clorox” which we know is not the case. Perhaps it was a brand name of bleach before 1948 that has since lost its copyright status.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
I am both older and single and this proposal of a goral is completely barbaric. It smacks of the Reverend Moon method of making zivugim for his mass weddings.
On the other hand, a goral system for dates between willing participants, where anyone who refused at least a first date with another voluntary goral participant would be out of the game for further proposals, would possibly work.
Polygamy is illegal in our host societies and is also out of the question; it would lead to massive chilul Hashem. Ditto for the pilegesh idea that is circulating in the trailer park sewer section of the Jewish internet.
November 10, 2009 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm in reply to: Anyone Else Worried About Today’s Frum Music? #793047A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Yes. I am getting sick and tired of all these uplifting psukim set to music, as if Yiddishkeit is just about having a good time, about kol chosson vekol kalla, about Moshiach, etc.
It is time to set psukim that end in mois yumos, or begin with arur, to music and to play these at chassunes to remind the couple and all guests that ours is a life of responsibility and following rules.
As a great godol, one who is so holy that he rarely sees the light of day, once said: “Yiddishkeit iz nit nor gefilte fish in bagels. S’iz skila, sreyfo, hereg in chenek!” (Judaism is not just gefilte fish and bagels. It is lapidation, immolation, supracervical amputation, and asphyxiation.)
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Does anyone know how bleach came to be called “ekonomika”? The correct word is “loven” as in “Loven Kleen” which I think is now rebranded as CIF ekonomika ever since Unilever purchased Kleen.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
A completely voluntary goral might not be a bad idea for shidduch dates, but forced marriage this way is frankly barbaric.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
When I bought that Caol Ila, it was after a self imposed ban due to a psak from Rav Landa shlita that NO scotch was acceptable. I believe Rav Landa’s office does have a list of approved scotches at this time.
All of the rest of my information is from a renowned kashrus expert, namely Rabbi Don Yoel Levy – OK Labs. He backed up his statements with pictures from the Johnnie Walker Distillery. However, he does not make definitive statements regarding that which he does not certify.
Nevertheless, I do not purchase sherry cask aged scotches for public consumption, and since I do not drink in private that means I don’t purchase such scotches. It is not worth arguing with someone over or having someone suspect me in general. The only way I would consume same is if it was given to me as a gift or served at a reliable friend’s home or kiddush.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
LOL at 600 KG I would be disqualified! Not that anyone would mind feeding the lamentable former heavyweight champ Mike Tyson to a 1300 pound bear…oops, that is animal abuse and PETA would be all over whoever did that!
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Isn’t it (wasn’t it) filim and filmim? Correct word: tarmilim as with any other cartridge.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Incidentally, I am listening to, of all things, Chazzan Yechiel Nahari right now. I assure you that I could never sit through any tefila he leads, but at this particular moment when I have a few free moments to really listen, I find his hazzanut entertaining as well as inspiring (in that I can listen to every word he sings clearly and internalize the message of the piyut).
Now I am switching to a Yom Tov Ehrlich song, and the feeling is the same.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
You have to remember where this Jewish boxer is coming from, namely the FSU where sport is culturally very important – and where Judaism was kept under wraps until very recently. For someone of Salita’s background to be where he is today is a great kiddush Hashem, even if boxing isn’t culturally for us. He did not have the fortune to go to yeshiva or day school upon his arrival in the US either, making his situation an even greater kiddush Hashem.
Also, because he is not a heavyweight, his earnings potential is not all that great and I am sure that long before he suffers any damage, he will retire and either go into kiruv or into business.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Kavod HaMalchus for these three is the same as kavod hamalchus for Chavez. The difference is that because of the US constitution, when Hashem decrees it so, these three will fade into obscurity (more likely into Jimmy Carter style ‘activism’) with little lasting damage done.
That is assuming that the American people indeed wake up. Sadly, what I see from here is that Americans don’t want to be American anymore, and instead they want to live EU style lives, with a nanny state, limits on enterprise in exchange for social benefits, and therefore more leisure time. If that happens, the US will be like Canada, or Germany, on the world stage, and the Asian powers will control world finance and affairs.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
I think that for Chanukah, Barack Saddam Hussein Obama will visit Nidal Malik Hasan (if he has not peygered by then) and the two will light an electric menorah (with green lights to symbolize Islam) at Hasan YMS’s bedside.
Last time I checked, Mahmoud Abbas YMS is a leader of an evil axis entity (albeit not a country). He is also a Shoah denier who never repudiated his thesis or dissertation or whatever he wrote denying the Shoah. So, if you invite him, invite David Irving YMS as well.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
In most communities there are multiple shuls :). While everyone “has his shul,” who hasn’t gone to another shul to hear a chazzan, a rov, a speaker, go to a simcha/kiddush, because they’re up early/late etc – or indeed to avoid speaker or chazzan so and so?
Community shuls have a responsibility either to serve as much of the community as possible (as ours does which includes refusing to hire a chazzan after several bad experiences) or indeed to allow for multiple minyonim.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
The problem is that when a chazzan stretches out the davening and irritates daveners, there is no way to walk out because then you miss out on the minyan.
On the other hand, if you don’t want to hear a maggid, a guest speaker, or even the rov’s dvar Torah, you either don’t attend the lecture or walk quietly out into the hall and wait it out.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Moshe Hirsch was Purim Rov in Chaim Berlin. Maybe he was in Lakewood as well. He and MAF clearly just do what they do (well, MAF is retired) to get attention and a few bucks from whoever and wherever.
This past year there were more Jews coming to Ukraine from EY than vice versa. It has been that way in more prosperous and larger Russia for almost a decade now. Anyone who leaves here for EY is doing so temporarily, usually to learn because he can’t get a visa to the US where he would rather learn. Otherwise, you have a few starry eyed idealists who usually come running back or move on to Germany – or losers, often not halachically Jewish, who are going for welfare. Even a couple of retirees I know here came back from there because they had nothing to live for there.
Enjoy your economic bubble. I lived through three bubble busts already, but all were in places with far more of an economic base than the medine. The medine just muddles through, has a boom-bust cycle that leaves far more people down than up even when the bust ends, and is a net exporter of trained, skilled, enterprising people.
It is only a few starry eyed Americans who still believe as you do. Even many RZ are fed up with their broken dream.
I have no more time to waste on this thread which is just a rehash of 1000 similar threads, and this one was supposed to be about Yiddish. Still, my last words here will be in loshon hakoidesh:
Hashem Hu Malkeinu. Beshitas hakofrim ein anu makirim.
A600KiloBearParticipantBS”D
Read my post carefully. …”APPEAR…” The doctors clearly are legal but brought in for the same reason illegals come in – to do jobs Americans consider beneath them.
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