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If you don’t want UK to turn out like France (and the rest of Europe) – Vote OUT
After reading the complete and utter apikorsus against rabbonim in this thread, I think I will no longer read the coffee room.
And I don’t envy those who wrote and published the comments.
You think they specially tried to get the media to attack them?
You obviously haven’t read this thread very well. Most people here are from communities where ladies drive so I’m not sure where you are coming from. Our only issue is the way people are attacking those do have this policy.
Everyone accepts those who disagree respectfully with others views. But not if you bash them for it.
“If it’s not Tznius, it’s not Tznius. We don’t have non-Jews sing or dance or parade around undressed for us. Nor do we have them do such things for women. If this is a non-Tznius activity, then why are we allowed to let a non-Jew do it for us?”
Many aspects of tznius don’t relate to non jews – e.g you are allowed to look at a non jewish lady whose hair is uncovered. And the nuances – are you against those who say that ladies skirts should be 4 inches below their knees even when that wouldn’t apply with regard to looking at non jews?
These arguments have no sense to them.
For the same reason why Yeshiva World like to publish all the controversial news stories.
I trust that if my Rav feels it isn’t within his scope to pasken regarding a certain issue, he will consult with others before doing so.
Though a driving policy within a certain community is certainly not a life and death issue or a klal yisrael policy.
(For the record: my Rav does allow women to drive.)
“doesn’t have a right to Pasken certain things.”
So you trust as long as he wouldn’t pasken anything that falls out of your comfort zone. Not sure if that can be called trust…
“Random Rabbonim of communities are not”
You don’t even have basic trust in your own Rav? How sad…
Definition of abusive:
: using harsh and insulting language
: using or involving physical violence or emotional cruelty
Not driving = emotional cruelty? Yeah right.
”But if people view a ban on driving as abusive”
don’t be ridiculous
They only donated a quarter of what it says.
“This is yeshivaworld right?”
In name only.
“it turns people off to the whole concept”
It’s not the high standards turning them off. When a parent ridicule’s the school’s standards, that’s what turns the kids off from them.
“A jew who cares – Would they not be married if they make a wedding in their local shul, and bring in turkey sandwiches? Or a backyard wedding in the summer? Or the parents’ dining room?”
Yes they would, but if after your son gets engaged, the girl’s parents turn to you and say they are doing it in their dining room, would you be okay with it? Be realistic please!!
Not everyone can afford to make a small wedding either (even after trying very hard to put away money) Unless you are suggesting they make it in their dining room?
Health – “The Truth doesn’t bother me, only when people post Lies!” – are you not used to it already?
The Yeshivish community in Leeds is TINY. Most yeshivish people living there are doing so for kiruv.
There is no more antisemitism there than anywhere else (firsthand experience)
Little Froggie – A+
Jewishness – I agree that it isn’t in my (or your) place to debate whether or not each individual is suited for kollel. I think that should be left for those that are more learned than I, you or Gavra.
The point I was trying to bring out was the chashivus of those who are able to do it and who are sometimes even moser nefesh for it, which hasn’t been echoed in this thread.
What I can say for certain is that everyone would agree that it is a terrible thing for people to paint a black picture of those that are doing the ideal ultimate way of living.
The least we can all do is to back and support them, each to his ability – and I’m sure that even your sources would agree to that. What better tzedaka can there be than helping people fulfill the purpose of this world’s creation.
Gavra – I’m not sure what you mean by mussar movement, the points he mentions are extremely relevant to our discussion. The whole shaar speaks about chasivus Limud HaTorah and the importance of using all ones time to learn Torah. Therefore the more time people spend on it and the more time they make available for it, obviously the more they are fulfilling this obligation. In Chapter 13 he quotes from chazal that Hashem created the world only for the purpose of learning Torah.
All Torah learning upholds the world and I never said otherwise, every single person which spends time learning is doing the ratzon Hashem, but since those in Kollel are immersed full day in learning Torah they are upholding the world the entire day.
I’m not telling you that everyone can be in Kollel, all I’m saying is that one has to appreciate and respect those who are living the ideal life of being fully immersed in Torah study.
I’m not trying to convince anyone to do anything – as I’ve said numerous times, that’s for each person to discuss with their own Rav. The reason I started posting again is since I feel it is wrong to sit back when no one is sticking up for the Torah, especially after comments to the effect that learning Torah causes people to go off the derech and emaciated kids.
In extreme cases of poverty where the family is suffering (though it’s up do them to decide whether they can cope with it, not outsiders or guests who don’t feel comfortable with their host’s financial situation), I agree with you that one can try find a way to bring in some extra money, the Chofetz Chaim also worked in a shop though he only had it open for the minimum time necessary and then went back to learning. It doesn’t have to be a contradiction to being in Kollel or learning full day/as much as one can.
Kol hakovod to everyone who is being moser nefesh for Torah and we should be mobilizing all forces to ensure that people can continue to do so easily rather than trying to stop the system.
Sorry for the long post, all that has been bottled up the past few days inside me whilst I have tried to keep silent, must be coming out…
I would suggest you all take a look at Nefesh Hachaim Shaar Daled, which goes into depth about the importance of being immersed in Limud Hatorah, before posting further comments and personal views on this subject.
YYBC – we haven’t heard both sentiments here. There has been no firsthand account from a kollel man against his way of life.
The only people against here are outsiders who feel a need to paint a black picture of others affairs. I think people should follow their own daas torah rather than listening to the warped hashfkafos that people are bringing.
Whoever is doing as well as they are making out should perhaps start supporting those who are learning. They are upholding the world, and there is no way for a G-d fearing Jew to refute that.
I’m giving up. I’m not interested in going back and forth about how it is possible to be in kollel since you don’t seem to be interested in hearing that, though I think you are all just way way way off base. (and I think it’s sad that that’s the main opinion to be found on something which is called Yehiva World News).
Zahavasdad – Someone once asked R’Matishyohu Salomon shlita the same mathematical question that you just raised.
I don’t remember the details exactly, but it was definitely to the gist of that the same way previous people have managed, is how future doros will manage as well. As in – it is sometimes unexplainable how people have managaged, but they have and will continue to do so (with Hashem’s help – No one has thought of bringing Him into the equation in this thread.)
It seems like the posters here don’t know many happy kollel families. I happen to be acquainted with plenty of them, and yes plenty people are doing it without parental support.
There are also plenty people who have a side income whilst in Kollel so I’m not sure why everyone here is painting such a black picture for an ideal life.
If one is not able to do this, there is the middle way of appreciating those who do it, rather than trying to make it sound wrong to do the ratzon Hashem (yes you can’t refute that Hashem is happy when people learn).
She’s saying that because she’s experiencing the beauty of having a husband learning Torah. You can call it a cult – following the cult of Torah.
No one is saying it is the only proper choice – but it is a beautiful choice and you can’t refute that.
If you read what you just wrote now again then you will see that you are putting it down.
My point is that please only quote live people unless you can give us a clear source for your words. Please don’t twist what the Chazon Ish has said. There’s no expiry date or elite club for ‘vehigisa bo yomom v’layla’
Once you start quoting dead people – well the biggest charedi politic parties are both backed and supported by the same dead Rav.
I’m not saying that everyone is able to learn in Kollel all day, but if you can it’s a beautiful thing and please don’t put that down.
Btw DaMoshe – Lapid also holds that only the elite should be learning.
I’m not here to say whether or not kollel is right for each individual – that is for each individual to discuss with their Rav/mentor.
However, what I can say is that I think we are getting an extremely one-sided view here, since the people sitting happily in kollel (with happy wives and families as well) are not usually posting their comments in this forum.
If you think the Lakewood boys are the ones causing the shidduch crisis then I would assume that means you think they are good marriage material.
If that’s the case, perhaps being in the freezer helps them to become the type of boy who would be sought after?
I somehow fail to see the connection between affording a $4000 dollar item and a $200 one.
The price difference in Israel between a borsalino and brandolino is only around 150nis (less than $40)
There are obviously cheaper ones including pressed wool ones though a drop of water over them will already cause decay.
Yeshiva bachurim save money in many other areas e.g. giving each other haircuts.
I still can’t believe that there are people out there who can’t fargin that bachurim can have a small taiveh like this.
Sam2 – I’m quite surprised at your posts.
We obviously can’t judge anyone since everyone is coming and growing from different places and nor is it for us to decide what things they have to work on.
However, each of us do have a responsibility how we influence others and I wouldn’t think anyone would want to be liable for making things sound okay when they’re not.
YYBC – considered by who?
Not by any people that I know.
Put it in a bowl of rice.
This is known to work for phones though haven’t tried it with an ipod.
What’s the difference between a shlemazel, a shlemiel and a nudnik?
Shlemazel spills the soup, Shlemiel gets it over his trousers and then the nudnik asks ‘was it chicken or veg?’
If $250 would keep a bachur in yeshiva for 3 extra years (that’s around how long my hats last), then yes that perhaps might be a good cause.
And btw Flatbusher – a little birdie told me a few days ago that if I would have played basketball in Yeshiva then perhaps I would have remained there for longer.
Would you not agree that just as much as they need a gashmiyus outlet they also perhaps feel a need for something as gashmiyusdik as a nice hat?
I agree with all DY points, glad we have one normal voice here.
I’m not sure what the rest seem to have against yeshiva bachurim??
You should be glad all they have peer pressure for is a Borsalino hat…
All I’m saying is that a genuine Yeshiva guy is comfortable in their own skin.
Because that’s the way it usually goes.
The girls always have to run after the boys to get a date. The least the boys can do to compensate is to meet in the girls town.
All the genuine Yeshiva guys I know are NOT embarassed to wear hats and jackets.
Why should they be?
Perhaps those who spend their free time playing basketball are embarrassed to be seen wearing hats in public.
A non-frum colleague of mine was hacking about this issue. Shame to see the same response here…
To those who have been calling it a chillul Hashem: If that’s what you’re really worried about then believe me, this thread is more of a chillul Hashem…
He’s telling you to ask your rav rather than argue about it here (as you previously suggested).
mir talmid – you stole the comment I was about to post.
Flatbusher – Let us know what your rav says.
I was asking about mixed dancing as a rhetorical question.
I imagine they don’t mention it in lectures since they don’t expect you to be going.
What’s your views on mixed dancing?
And according the rabbonim I go according to, the internet is allowed in the right environment.