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From what I understand it’s mutar at least according to חסידים to learn Zohar and its actually encouraged just קבלת האריז״ל you have to be ראוי for because he writes in a way that’s hard to understand and you could be מגשם it. I heard a story that the בעש״ט had ״טענות ״ why the אריז״ל explains the ספירות בפרטי פרטיות with משלים from גשמיות which could lead a person to think he understands Hashem with his mind and the אריז״ל told the בעש״ט that he’s right and if he would live longer he would teach differently not על דרך השכל. so because of that חסידים don’t learn כתבי אריז״ל unless their ראוי and are able ״להפשיט הדברים מגשמיותם״.
What’s your point from that מדרש obviously it’s a בחינה not כפשוטו ח״ו
Regarding ״עצמות בגוף״ if you’re familiar with חבד terminology עצמות doesn’t always mean Hashem himself many times it could refer to עצמות אור אין סוף. it’s אפיקרסות to explain that statement as referring to hashem himself as hashem is not בגדר גוף ח״ו.
ח״ו to say that ר׳ נהוראי or any תנא would speak poetically that’s ממש אפיקרסות every statement in Shas is one hundred percent true and תנאים didn’t exaggerate or speak poetically. Not everyone is on that level and there is another opinion, but ר׳ נהוראי meant what he said. (Obviously the whole discussion in the גמ׳ has nothing to do with college.)
Menachem sorry I made a mistake its the sicha of Purim תש״ט in the foot note at the end ״ער האט אונז געשיקט אין גלות און ער וועט אונז ארויסנעמען אליין גייט מען ניט״
Menachem “this change was all ready brought by the rebbe Rayatz……in his later years”
look at שיחת אחרון של פסח תש״ט to see what was the שיטה of the Rayatz towards the state of Israel in his later yearsI was thinking about previous stuff that I wrote where I spoke disrespectfully about the Lubavitcher rebbe and I realized that I made a mistake although the Lubavitcher Rebbe is not בחזקת משיח and it’s against the Torah to think that he is and although he made other various mistakes he was still a צדיק and he did many good things and even though many צדיקים were against different stuff that he did but they generally didn’t come out against him personally because they recognized that he was a צדיק so I want to apologize to Lubavitcher Chassidim for not referring to the Lubavitcher Rebbe with proper respect
@any i mentioned before that your “rebbe” said that קיבוץ גלויות allredy started and you said i’m misquoting him and he never said that i don’t know when I listened to the recording of his דרשה I heard him saying that קיבוץ גליות started and in the written shicha it Olso says that any one could look it up or hear the recording so I don’t know why you say that I’m misquoting him
חזקת משיח is not the same thing as ראוי להיות משיח or משיח שבדור the latter means absolutely nothing halachicly its just a term used out of respect for a big צדיק who you feel might be cwalefid for the job if Hashem decides to bring משיח in his generation.חזקת משיח however is a halachic term for someone who has the סימנים of the rambam including being a king in א״י and having the majority of yiden ander his control and successfully enforcing all the מצות and all this without any one being Abel to stop him and if someone is בחזקת משיח then as far as we are concerned he is the גואל צדק the only difference between him and משיח ודאי is that the latter’s חזקה can’t be בטול ever and someone who is just חזקת משיח his חזקה could be בטול however until proven wrong he is halachicly משיח. When it talks about someone’s חזקה being proven wrong if he dies or he fails it’s talking about someone who was בחזקת משיחwhich is the same thing as the גואל צדק.in the ספר ציצת נובל צבי from ר׳ יעקב ששפורט against שבתאי צבי ימ״ש he writes that ש״צ can’t be בחזקת משיח because he is in jail and the true משיח’s מלכות can’t fail even לפי שעה. We know also that בר כוכבא lost his חזקת משיח even according to ר״ע when he was killed
@qwerty the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that his father in law was a נביא because he predicted the future many times and then he said that the נבואה continues to the next generation thruw ״תלמידיו וכו״of his father in law and that his father in law attested that ״תלמידיו וכו״ is a נביא which means that you don’t have to test him and ask for signs and than he said that the main נבואה of this generation is that moshiach is coming ״בקרוב ממש״ and ״לאלתר״ which means very soon and then he said that it’s a מצוה to poblicize to everyone both yidden and גויים that “there is a person in our generation who is שלא בערך greater the rest of the generation who is a נביא and gives directions for every detail in a person’s life and everyone has to listen to everything he says because it’s not a advice but a comand and a נבואה and it’s especially important to spread the main נבואה that the גאולה is coming ״בקרוב ממש sounds a bit crazy but that’s what he said word for word.the source is the sicha of פרשת שופטים תשנ״א
@any there can only be one person who is בחזקת משיח
@any in any case this whole topic wether when someone who was בחזקת משיח dies he loses his חזקה or not is irrelevant because you’re rebbe was never בחזקת משיח to begin with so before we discuss wether dieng is מבטל the חזקה first prove that your rebbe ever had a חזקה
@any potato your משיח שקר did not say the same thing as דבי ר׳ שילה he said he is בחזקת משיח even though he doesn’t have the סימנים lדבי רבי שילה didn’t say ר׳ שילה was בחזקת משיח. lמשיח could come from the dead just that if someone with a חזקת משיח dies he loses his חזקה because he wasn’t socsesfull in bringing the גאולה. Your right that חזקת משיח doesn’t include bringing the גאולה but it dos include being anointed by Hashem as the גואל ישראל and if he fails to be the גואל ישראל then he loses that status and when someone was proclaimed בחזקת משיח and he announces that he will redeem the Yiddin and then he dies to say he will come back and accomplish it means to believe in a “second coming “ by the way yoshke also didn’t acomplish קיבוץ גלויות nor did he restore the מלכות ישראל to its former stature nor did he try to so “first coming” simply means to consider yourself משיח and anointed by Hashem for the job. דרך אגב the whole thing is irrelevant because your rebbe said that he already started קיבוץ גלויות in the sicah of כ״ד אדר תשנ״ב and there’s a recording of it he also said that 770 is the בית המקדש that משיח has to build or renevate in order to be משיח וודאי so even according to what you’re saying his soposed ״חזקה״ would be בטול because he did say he started the גאולה itself which even according to your resening that would be called a second coming
@avira I thought you followed the satmar Shita that’s not the shita of satmar the shita of satmar is that every second in the idf is יהרג ועל יעבור so it’s irrelevant if their is a סכנה or not. In addition the satmar rebbe held that if they give up the government there won’t be a danger. the words “we need a army” and saying that it’s ok for them to be משתדל for yidden by serving in the army because we have no choice is against the shita of satmar
@cs look at my full post first before attacking I did say that every yid was once נכלל in עצמות. I just explained that once it comes to this world the neshomoh is not נכלל any more not even the neshomoh of a צדיק.
To cs the Tanya doesn’t mean part of Hashem himself it means a part of אצילות as it itself explaines.other Sforim both חב״ד and others do go further and say that בשורש every נשמה comes from hashem himself meaning that it was once נכלל completely in hashem but once it comes down to this world in a body it’s not נכלל in hashem anymore at the most it could reatain the level of אצילות if he’s a צדיק גמור as it explaines in תניא and could even be נכלל in אור אין סוף but under no circumstance can it be נכלל in hashem himself because hashem can’t be מלובש in a body or in anything גשמיות because that would have an affect on hashem and hashem can’t change. By the way if you look in תניא פרק ב׳ he brings from the אריז״ל that hashem is not even מלובש in רוחניות not even in חכמה דאצילות hashems only מלובש in the highest level of אור אין סוף when it’s still “in him” before it comes out to “shine” on the world. So if the Lubavitcher really meant that only אור אין סוף is מלובש in his גוף that would be one thing however if he meant hashem ממש the way some Lubavitchers explain and when they pray they have in mind hashem the way hes מלובש in mm”s than that’s מינות and ע״ז. Sometimes ספרים say עצמות but it really means אור אין סוף as those ספרים usualy explain.
I have a question for all the Lubavitchers do you believe that Hashem is still מולבש in your rebbes body after death because that would be נמנע הנמנעות ממש if hashem is עפרא לפומיא in a body that body can’t be dead ק״ו from a נשמה that when it’s מלובש in the body the body has to be alive כ״ש the חי החיים himself if he’s עפ״ל מלובש in a body that body has to be alive
The גמ׳ in סוכה דף נ״ב says בפירוש that once someone becomes בחזקת משיח he can’t die it’s not one אמורא it’s a תנו רבנן which means that that’s the הלכה. The רמבן in his ויכוחים brings this גמ׳ I’ll quote word for word תנו רבנן משיח בן דוד שעתיד להגלות במהרה בימינו אומר לו הקב״ה שאל ממני דבר ואתן לך אומר לפניו רבש״ע איני מבקש ממך אלא חיים אומר לו חיים עד שלא אמרת כבר התנבא עליך דויד אביך שנאמר חיים שאל ממך נתת לו וכו
To Menachem maybe you can explain how that דעה נפסדה fits with the י״ג עיקרים that hashem is not a כח in a body and is not מלובש in a body the way a נשמה is מתלבש ומתאחד בגוף
@sechel if you learned the מקורות than please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that your rebbe was בחזקת משיח which of the סימנים of the רמב״ם does he have. And if you want to say that the חזקה could continue after death then that means that theirs at least hondred of thousands of true צדיקים מזרע דוד for him to “compete” with how is he any closer than them להבדיל to being ״כופה כל ישראל לילך ״בה ולחזק בדקה and being״ לוחם מלחמות ה׳״and to being a ״מלך על ישראל״
To Sechel. There is absolutely no place in Yiddishkeit to say the Hashem is מלובש בגוף it’s one of the י״ג אני מאמין. If it appears to you that it has a place in קבלה then that’s exactly why regular people shouldn’t be learning קבלה. Obviously קבלה and חסידות don’t contradict עיקרי אמונה and if it appears that it does then obviously you didn’t understand it properly. Let me quote to you from חב״ד ספרים which discuss this topic תניא שער היחוד דף פ״ג.l לית מאן דתפיסא ביה אע״ג דאיהו ממכ״ע אינו כנשמת האדם תוך גופו שהיא נתפסת תוך גופו משא״כ הקב״ה שאינו נתפס כלל תוך העולמות Now let me quote from דרך מצבותיך from the צ״צ דף נ״ו. וז״ל ״כי הנה אור הוא בחי׳ גילוי הא״ס ממש אלא שגילוי זה הוא רק כמו זיו השמש לגבי השמש שאין שום התפעלות ושינוי במהות השמש מהתפשטות הזיו ואינו כמשל התפשטות חיות הנפש בגוף שהנפש מתפעלת מהתפשטות זו לפי שמתלבשת ומתאחדת עם הגוף משא״כ הזיו המאיר מהשמש שאין השמש עצמה מתלבשת כלל אלא שזיוה זורח על הארץ וכמו כן למעלה אין שום התפעלות ושינוי כלל במהו״ע ית׳. So we see clearly that this has no place in קבלה or חסידות l אדרבה in ספרי חב״ד it says בפירוש that you can’t say that.
The Lubavitcher is a משיח שקר is because he doesn’t have any of the סימני משיח brought down in rambam in edition if someone who was בחזקת משיח dies he looses his חזקה and is definitely not משיח. This doesn’t have anything to do with דבי רב שילה or דניאל because no one said their בחזקת משיח all theגמ׳ said was that their ראוי להיות משיח בעתיד if theדור will be ראוי so it doesn’t matter if they have the סימנים of משיח or not and it doesn’t matter if they passed away because they were never משיח to begin with.
I want to explain why the Lubavitcher can’t be moshiach and to answer some questions Lubavitchers asked earlier. someone asked what’s the problem to say he’s moshiach if in the גמ׳ we find that תלמידים darshined פסוקים about משיח to be talking about their rebbes The difference is that they Said that their rebbe was the משיח שבדור that if the דור would be ראוי then their rebbe will become משיח Chabad however says their “rebbe” is already בחזקת מלך המשיח and that’s אפיקרסות because he doesn’t have the סימנים of משיח as brought down in the rambam. Another thing is that even someone who was בחזקת משיח the רמב״ם says that if he fails at one point his חזקה is בטול ומבוטל and we know for certain that he’s not משיח. the “rebbe” failed obviously to bring the גאולה because he is dead if that doesn’t count for ״לא הצליח״ then what does. And the רמב״ן also said in his ויכוחים that you can’t say משיח came and then died. This that their is a גמ׳ that says משיח could come from the dead and it could be דניאל is not a סתירה ח״ו because it’s not talking about a “second coming” rather a ״first coming״ and it’s not saying that דניאל is בחזקת משיח and will come back to finish the job it’s just Saying that all tough he doesn’t fit the סימנים for משיח and he wasn’t yet crowned and as of now he is not משיח but if the דור is ראוי he is one of the potential people who could become משיח