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So it seems that the vast majority of people in NY, especially among the frum orthodox jews are not mask bearers, yet there is no surge of the coronavirus.
That is not to say that masks are not beneficial, and there can be other factors at play here, but it seems that masks are not necessarily the answer to everything.
Chaim,
Definitions are important when you state that there is systematic racism against blacks, does that mean there are polices in place that targets specific groups of people?
Are you referring to affirmative action?
Or any other policies?
You use bad neglected areas or lack of good jobs. Is that the result of racism? What can be done to change that? Funnel billions of dollars towards those specific groups?
If the lack of father figure, lack of being raised with the same moral compass as others is a sign of systematic racism and the communities own doing, then we have different definitions for what systematic racism is.
I have mentioned this recently here, all that you have listed is true, but where are the black community leaders when it comes to these issues? Why are they busy instigating the black community to become racists and go against the white man?
Charlie has called me out as a bigot, and others have disagreed very strongly. But none have pointed out anything that would indicate that any of the leaders in the black community that actually are actively working on these major issues.
“That’s because he probably was a Conservative.”
Ha Ha!
Never assume facts.
Thanks for the entertainment.
Anyone else here thinks that ubiquitin and Health are really just one person having fun here?
Great idea, why ask your doctor when you can just get answers from the coffee room?!
If you have to do something, that is dependant on your local laws, if scientifically there is any point for doing so, this will take some time to know for sure.
At this point, I really do not see why someone would focus on a law enforcement career. There is so much stacked against these professionals.
Catch yourself,
That exactly was my point. He should stop making this personal.
CTL
Pretty disgusting when you act as if you are superior to other posters.
For some reason the hot shot lawyer that keeps on mentioning that you charge a few hundred dollars per hour, takes the time to respond and argue with random online posters.
Not an activity one would expect from the type of person your trying to portray yourself as.
Like you think someone cares about the prep for a zoom meeting that occupied your day, stop playing like your better than the next guy.
The next guy might have been involved in more worthy activities than those of yours, who cares.
Wonderful!
The Seattle police chief posted that there are rapes, robberies and all sort of crimes that they cannot get to.
A win for the criminals.
Abba_S
“Many of these ideas sound good on paper but what happens in practice is a different story. ”
None of this sounds good on paper.
n0m
“j.”This means that rape, physical assault, armed robberies, and violent gangs are preferred over the supposed systemic racism.” Again, I understand the idea is to ‘Defund’ while getting better policing. These neighborhoods, do not rely on the Police for protection from violent criminals. Just because the Police are downsized in the bad neighborhoods, it does not mean less policing in the suburbs.”
You made a statement, “These neighborhoods, do not rely on the Police for protection from violent criminals”
What are you basing this on?
I believe we rely on law enforcement to enforce laws and also to protect the vulnerable, especially during an active crime. At least that is what I would do if a crime were to be committed against myself or my family, I would reach out to the police and hope they arrive as fast as possible.
n0m
” I think we can agree that as is today, law enforcement cannot solve the drug problem in inner city communities.”
I am not sure that I would agree to that, but I understand why some people would make that argument, especially those that are looking to frequently break the law, and those that want more freedom to commit crimes and market illegal drugs.
n0m
“g. As of now, municipal police departments divide cities into defined areas, and dived uniformed officers into shifts. Each shift covers the whole precinct, with most officers getting steady roles. [Accident reporting. Routine home emergencies. Patrols. Etc.] After an officer has been working a precinct for some time, (two years?) they ca apply to join a specific unit. [Drugs. Trafficking. Illegal guns. Cyber. Anti-terror. Etc.] There are certain events that require cooperation of many officers. [Siyum hashas. Presidential appearances. Riots. Highway closures.] (I pulled this together from various sites. Maybe someone can clear this up for us.)
In response to your statement about needing “a competent and strong police force” for violent crime, I understand ‘Defund’ to mean a much smaller troop of everyday uniformed officers, with the bulk of 911 first responders being social workers, mental health professionals, and community service officers. Most of the specialized units will be merged into the county’s and state’s police forces. There will remain a well trained group of officers for each shift to handle dangerous situations. Something like a SWAT team with less training and gear. In this setup, large gatherings and highway construction will hire private firms for security and traffic control.”Not really sure how removing certain units or divisions from the police department, will change anything. Especially the smaller departments that do not have all these different units that you mentioned.
Also, why LESS training and LESS gear will a benefit for the community?
When a crime happens, we need the police to be at the location of the crime in an expedited fashion, this requires a set amount of active officers on the road. Otherwise, the criminals have a huge headstart, can commit whatever crime they want, and get away with it.
I am not even sure why we are disagreeing about this.
n0m,
I agree with a lot of what you wrote.
“b. As noted above, police do a lot for us that is not law enforcement. (We call Hatzolah and other organizations. They only call 911.) Basic education, youth centers, etc. are connected with decreases in violent crime.’
Hatzoloh is an EMS system that replaces either municipality, volunteer, or hospital-based EMS. I am not really sure the police force has other functions aside from enforcing the law.
Regarding youth centers and similar projects, great! Yet what does that have to do with defunding or changing anything that is going on on the police side?
“g. Only part of the force, polices violent crime. In my understanding of ‘Defund’ that part of the force would remain, and probably get higher salaries and more resources. If we abolish then the Feds or State Police handles violent crime. This is done in some countries. However, there does not seem to be any real traction for ‘Police Abolition’ now. So, there is not much written on how it could work.”
Can you simplify this, are you referring to detectives or parking enforcement agents?
“h. Strong policing is necessary when there is strong incentive to commit crimes. Nobody claims that strong policing will turn Ferguson, Missouri, into Irvine, California,”
What is this based on?
Strong policing is necessary where crime is present, so I believe.
“I. It is not new. But the Mishna is pointing to a complete or competent government. One that is unbiased toward it’s citizenry. Which is where racism comes in.”
Assuming that this is the interpretation, you would first need to establish systemic racism in policing, not some random anecdotal episodes, and that the supposed racists acts that exist and are systemic are so severe that doing away with the police is more important than the crime control.
This means that rape, physical assault, armed robberies, and violent gangs are preferred over the supposed systemic racism.
n0mesorah
“The problem with racism is not irrationality. What is rational could be harmful, uncontrollable, unsustainable, or the wrong way to act.”
If we know that people from a certain group are more likely to do something, taking that into account, is that racism?
For instance, assuming that a religious jew will likely be looking for two sinks in their house, does assuming this make one a racist?
Usually, racism is reserved for superiority and inferiority. But using statistics and prior life experiences, especially when dealing with one’s own safety, is reasonable and not racist.
When one takes action to avoid being in a potentially unsafe environment, this does not mean they believe they are superior to the person that might potentially harm them.
I don’t believe I am racist, I work regularly with African Americans and have a lot of respect for them. They share these same notions, and by no means are they racists. Being a non African American does not mean that I am a racist when I share the very same concerns that the African American has.
“a. It is a movement in public spending, to spend less on the justice systems and more on social programs.”
– You don’t have to spend less on police in order to spend more on social programs, unless one is pandering to the masses that are specific in their callings and want police as we know it defunded.
“b. Maybe the opposite. If police only focus on law enforcement and if there would be greater cooperation with communities, our cities should be safer.”
– I am not sure there is any type of cooperation or any activities that would make cities safe, you suggest that law enforcement focus on enforcing the laws, I believe that this is the scope of law enforcement all over the country.
“f. La-la land is where everything is always good even when danger is obvious. reverse la-la land is when everything is scary, even things that could be helpful.”
– Exactly, the politicians that are promoting doing away with the police (some calling it defund the police, others spelling it out more clearly, to shut them down) suggest a la la land, in which we will make believe that all is good, when it is not.
There are very serious crimes that require a competent and strong police force, such as active robberies, assaults (physical and sexual) and an endless list of stuff that bad and sick people do.
To make believe that this is some sort of ‘privilege’ or that none of this will be an issue, is living in la-la land.
One look at some cities that were left in shambles, explains very well why a strong police force is important for a normal stable society.
This is not something new, as someone pointed out earlier, this is brought down in the mishnah.
n0mesorah
“On top of that, they refuse to find out about what it really means. Nobody is advocating for cities to be less safe. No reason to live in a reverse la-la land.”
a. So what is it?
b. They might not be advocating for less safer cities, but the police is there to make it safe, you remove the police and the end result is cities that are less safe.
c. I would have agreed to that. However, you could have easily said that there is no reason why looting and rioting would be tolerated or that mass gatherings during a pandemic would be encouraged while businesses, non-emergent medical procedures, and schools are shut.Furthermore, some of the elected democratic officials have stated in public that the definition of a defunded police means that one will not have the ‘privilege’ of activating the police when there is an active robbery in their residence.
This is the la-la land that they are proposing and most law-abiding citizens are against. I really DO hope that these politicians are just pandering to the rallies and hope that with time they will just move on.
huju
“To 2scents: If you do not think that cops treat black people harsher than they treat us white folks, you have not been paying attention”
I have been paying attention, and I have not noticed anything that would indicate what you are implying, that there is harsher treatment against black people.
They are violent, so they are bad.
“I happen to have a medical degree, but I don’t think I ever (intentionally) used it as a way to validate my opinion . I dont think I even let on to that fact until recently, though it may have been apparent from some of the debates IVe gotten more animated about.”
i have noticed this, and have a lot of respect for you. this is not real life, this is an anonymous online discussion and we should never take into consideration peoples claims of authority in any matter.
in real life, authorities in certain areas matters a lot.
Does playing doctor in the coffee room count?
“OK, show of hands: How many of you folks who have posted 4 or more comments on this thread have a medical degree or a bachelor’s degree (or higher) in a physical science (biology, chemistry, physics, geology)?”
I prefer to argue and discuss stuff on the merits and context of their post and dismiss the argument of authority.
I don’t believe that the left-leaning politicians really want to defund the police, they are just pandering to the protesters, at least some of them that are calling for defunding the police. Its basic politics.
“ great I love when we agree”
I think most disagreements really boil to small differences.
I dont think anyone disagrees that black people were discriminated against, or that they were aves (property) of other people or that they were sold by their own native people as slaves and brought to the united states.
You mention that what happened in the past is a cause for the current disadvantage of the black person.
That may or may not be, but we may disagree if this now means that people as a group were not exposed to this disadvantage, should kneel, beg for forgiveness and wash the feet of the black person.
Furthermore, the average american today is not really at a greater advantage if they are white.
If having a police force is a bad idea, why do we have them in the first place?
Are we living in a make-believe world in which crime does not exist?
Some crimes involve injuring and killing of innocent people, why would we want not want to have a police force that can respond and handle these situations?
ubiquitin
“It is very recent and it is still felt today.
I have a leg up thanks to a home my parents purchased in the 80’s A black person my age does not have that advantage. I will IYH be able to leave more to my children thanks to that home.
It is an advantage that I have today, it doesn’t get more recent than that”No one is saying that minorities have some disadvantages. My parents that immigrated to the USA had zero, they were subject to a lot of discrimination.
However, if you are going to rely on 45+ old data that suggests that there was some discrimination against minorities as a basis for systemic racism, then you would have to also have current data that. a) this still exists. b) there are other forms of racism.
The fact that your parents, for example, were able to purchase a house that a minority in the exact same financial situation had a slightly more difficult time obtaining, is a very subjective argument as to the condition of the black community.
You see, you actually have parents that purchased a home, statistically, from every 100 black babies born in the USA, 72 are from single mothers. Explain that on the banks. That puts the average black child at a huge disadvantage.
akuperma
“When you see a group of poorly dressed (apparently) African American young males walking down a dark street in your direction, do you get nervous?”
Lets say that yes, I do get nervous. What if not only do I get nervous, but my friend that is African American also gets nervous.
Does that make anyone a racist?
What if I am also uncomfortable if its a group of poorly dressed white people, with large tattoos who seem to be rowdy and using profanity at passerby’s.
Am I still a racist?
“Do you feel surprise on encountering an African American profession who seems to be highly competent?”
Not at all, I see it all over, there is opportunity all over and everyone can climb the ladder.
In fact, our last president was African American, he was afforded the top job in the country for 2 terms.
“You are conflating legislation and leadership. If you do not like the result, separate the two and follow your leader. I see nothing to complain about.’
Maybe,
However, leadership the very same people that created the legislation were supposedly using science as the basis of their decisions.
It turns out, that they have a different set of rules depending on the target audience.
This is anti-science.
We, the regular person that had to give up some of our liberties, access to health care (the elective portion) and livelihood might have done so in vain.
“Yeah. Way too much drama. I think we morally agree. Everyone reacts differently. The drama is to clarify the point of the dialogue. We could disagree on a lot of the other factors.”
Well said, we all (most of us) agree that racism is bad, police brutality against anyone is bad and that no one, regardless of if they committed a crime or not should be killed (unless they are an immediate threat to other people).
“Bravo, Ubiquitin! It’s nice finally to see a somewhat honest discussion, instead of the usual self-serving, racist drivel in these pages.”
Wow, so we now discussing data and facts are racist?
You have no clue who most of the commenters are, I personally work with a number of humans that happen to have black skin on a regular basis and I have a lot of respect for them.
Of course the black community has a lot of challenges, but if your only open to the idea that this is the whites man’s fault, and by having some sort of black supremacy in which the white man needs to kneel and wash the black persons feet, that IS racist!
By the way, there are racist policies already in place, what about affirmative action, by definition, it is a racist policy. It favors one group of people based on their skin color against other people.
The basis of this policy is due to past discrimination against one group of people, therefore we will now discriminate against another person.
“As recently as 1980’s Banks were still more likely to lend to a lower income white family than a middle blacvk one.”
That is very not recent.
Today, is there is any evidence of systemic racism against the black community?
huju
“I don’t know if most rioters are white, but if they are, maybe it’s because they do not fear being beaten by cops.”
That is one assumption, another might be that they are using these times as a means to do what they want to do, which is loot and riot.
In my area, there were only peaceful protests and gatherings, it was nice and unifying. No stealing, no looting, no negativity.
The looting and rioting obscures whatever positive and constructive message there, it makes people discount the rallies and have a very negative view on all of this.
I personally have not seen anything reported that would indicate that the black people are being beaten by cops any more than white people, not during these rallies and not in general.
There is so much that is political yet completely against science and facts.
No one knows for sure if staying home is important or not, yet for some reason, some of the doctors and scientists that were very strong about having a lockdown or quarantining at home, have come full circle and now actually say that the lockdown must be lifted to allow the protests.
This is as anti-science as it can get.
Charlie,
What about what I said was bigoted, in fact, by you labeling my question as bigoted is an act of bigotry.
Does the data support systemic institutional racism?
Does the data support systemic police racism?
Are these questions bigoted?
Charlie
“ They aren’t, but thanks for the bigoted generalization.”
Your a funny guy, you claim that what I stated is incorrect, and therefore labeled my statement as bigoted.
Wonderful, now please back up your assertion that the black community leaders actually and democrats came out against the violence and looting.
Where?
Al Sharpton said the following. “ We don’t have a problem denouncing violence, Mr. Governor, we don’t have a problem, Mr. Mayor, denouncing looting, but it seems like some in the criminal justice system have a problem looking at a tape and knowing there’s probable cause and it takes a long time for you to go and do what you see that you need to do.”
But never told anyone to stop looting.
You may call this bigoted, I call this screwed up.
I hope that by now all shulls and other vital religious services are back open.
In the tristate area, this has been going on for a few weeks, with zero upward trends in COVID cases.
The very same people that made it illegal for us to daven together and have been promoting shutting down shulls and schools are actually encouraging the BLM protests.
Us regular people, are the suckers and are pawns in these politician’s political games.
Charlie,
does this mean that the looting and rioting actually is ruining the black community more than its helping them?
If so, why are the black leaders and liberal politicians turning a blind eye towards the looting?
Charlie,
What you have mentioned is sad and unfortunate, there is no denying that racism exists, and as a Jew, I can attest to that.
However, to accuse a country of systemic racism and people that are not black that they need to apologize for whatever problems the black community is facing is wrong.
In fact, what you wrote is inspiring that despite the obstacles someone that is considered a minority was able to persist and climb up the ladder, instead of playing the victim card.
Hey!
This thread is almost as long as the vaccine thread..!
Syag,
I Didnt read every single post, so could be my points have been discussed already, but it’s beyond disgusting seeing protesters asking people that happen to be of white color that they should kneel and ask forgiveness.
My skin color, whatever it may be, has nothing to do with the problems in the black community.
None of their leaders seem to be bothered by the low level of education, high rate of; crimes, family dysfunction that the black community has.
In fact, they seem to be ok with what is going on, saying things like “no justice, no peace”.
There are a number of individuals in the black community that refused to accept being the victim and have done really well for themselves, the majority have accepted that they are victims for life.
This past year there were a number of obvious hate crimes committed against Jews, some by individuals that were black, such as the machete attack in Monsey.
Not for a moment did anyone blame other black people for what had happened, in fact blaming other black people would have been a racist act, as you are filtering people by color and distributing the blame among them.
There were no riots and no protests. Despite this being an unprovoked attack. These were law-abiding peaceful citizens going about their lives that were brutally attacked.
It is easy to play the victim and use that as an excuse to behave a certain way, there is a lot of work that needs to be done in the black communities and racial profiling is not the cause of any of this.
Doing my best,
“I was not agreeing with the violence. I have said before that I think the looting is evil.”
So where are all the leaders of the black community and democratic party denouncing the looting? Their silence gives the impressions as if they are ok with it.
“However, I was trying to explain where the black community is coming from. They have spent years in the same miserable hole, in a vicious cycle of crime, do you really think that if you had grown up in Harlem you would act that much different?”
Well said, however taking it out on the white man and the country as a whole, by accusing our country of systemic racism as a reason for them being who they are, is just going to make it much worse for them.
They need to fix their internal problems for any change to happen. Yet their leaders are not interested in doing so. Playing the victim works well for a few, the rest follow behind.
“know someone who bought a car of a model popular with African-Americans, for the next 2 years my she was constantly pulled over by cops “just making sure everything was alright” until she finally got rid of it.”
Not buying it.
Also, I work on a daily basis with a number of African Americans, some who I have a lot of respect for.
Whatever there is going out there, they are not at a greater disadvantage than my parents that came off the ship from Europe after losing everything, family, business, their home, and everything else. They had zero secular education, English was a foreign language and was exposed to their fair of antisemitism.
There is no evidence of systemic racism in this country as much as there is for systemic oppression by some leaders in the black and democratic party that would have a lot to lose if the black community no longer is the victim.
More importantly, whatever is going on in the black community has nothing to do with the people that are being accused of being racists.
Millhouse
“ says he died of a cardiopulmonary arrest”
Based on your posts you seem like an intelligent individual.
But everyone that dies, dies as a result of cardiopulmonary arrest. The question is, why were they in arrest.
Regarding heart attack, thats usually reserved for when the heart is lacking oxygen due to an occlusion. If left untreated, heart attacks can cause cardiopulmonary arrest or permanent heart failure.
Definitions matter!
Regardless of what we do, there will always be bad and evil people, people that walk among us and are evil.
Killing someone, regardless of ones racial inclination is evil.
I have not seen any reasonable people defend the actions of the cop that killed George Floyd, regardless of Floyds preexisting medical problems, killing him is evil. Choking someone for such a long period of time will likely kill them, regardless of their underlying medical problems.
Does anyone know if he was in cardiac arrest prior to the ambulance showing up?
Did the officers do CPR on him?“I am basically referring to some of the things mentioned in this thread by some of the other posters – a system which unfairly and disproportionately exposes the black community to law enforcement. The system is rigged so that two individuals who lead the same exact lives, one a person of color and one not, the person of color will have to deal with law enforcement 10 times more than the other person.”
The question here is not the facts, as you stated we clearly know that the black person statistically has more chances to be exposed to the criminal justice system.
The question really is, who is to blame and how can this be fixed.
The reason why this is important because a lot in the black community are blaming white supremacy as if the person that is white-skinned has anything to do with the fact that black people are being treated a certain way.
Also, going further how can this be corrected?
I personally do not believe that the higher internal crime rate in the black community (aka black on black) has anything to do with the white person. In fact, my parents that came off the boat after stealing their houses, money, and their siblings and children were murdered had it much worse off.
In fact, they did not speak English and could not find a normal job.
While they had to work harder, they still had opportunity and ended up establishing a nice family and a decent family business.
The black person is faced with a choice, they can protest and play victim, they can claim that other peoples properties really belong to them and loot. Or, they can focus on whatever opportunity they have and climb up the ladder of success.
But stop making believe that we as a country, we as a society are racist.
There is no evidence (yet) that it was racially motivated.
Nor is there any evidence that the looting and rioting have anything to do with George Floyds death.
Even if there would be proof that the crime was racially motivated, this is just one mans doing, or a small group of people. There is no reason as to why all other people around the country should now suffer because of this.
Furthermore, whatever racial inequalities or conceived thoughts people might be having, will not be fixed by looting and shutting down cities.
In fact, come to think about it, it will only make things worse. The lootings and riots are only obscuring whatever message the protests are trying to convey and making these activists all look like wild criminals that have no regard for other people’s property or life.
hey.. stop looking at me like I am second class or that I am just a thug.. ok I asked nicely, now I am going to break into your shop steal everything and beat you up just for fun.. Now you better stop thinking about me as a criminal..
And please.. let’s stop being idiots and kneel to other people as if someone has to apologize for being a different skin color than someone else. That is racism!