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“If someone is positive for covid, and goes around without telling anyone, they are likely considered a murderer.”
Would you say the same for other viral illnesses such as the flu?
N0m,
“I am not a Democrat“
You might or might not be a registered democrat. Yet, your posts in general are supportive of the democratic party and its leaders.
Mrs Plony,
“2cents, please be nice. Reb Eliezer’s argument did have substance.”
Its great to have a decent discussion with a focus on substance and content, but I try to stay away from silly arguments such as this.
“Your post is not worth 2scents. ”
The content of his post was already addressed by another poster earlier.
The point about doctors having experience in infectious and disease, that is about assessing and treating not about how to control a pandemic. As has been evident by a lack of clarity from public and private health officials on what actions to do that would contain the virus, and despite taking a number of measures a lot of areas such as NY and EY have been hit extremely hard.
“(although you could have skipped the first line and still made the same point).“
Nope, then he would actually need to use substance as an argument when he prefers otherwise.
Mrs Plony,
“Have any of the people who refuse to wear masks asked their doctors for input?”
Doctors have a doctorate degree in medicine, not in mask-wearing. There are no COVID experts.
CTLawyer,
“Dina Malchusa Dina………………….”
So was the decree for the Jews not to learn Torah and to attend Achashverushes party.
Some look at the mask laws as decrees, when the government starts deciding who can and who cannot be open, what congregations are ok and what should be banned without scientific reasoning this seems more like a decree. When the government decides what is essential and is selective when creating rules, this is not ok.
“2scents, did you listen to the Woodward tapes?”
no.“Trump said one thing on tape and another in public.”
So what?“He recognized the deadliness on the tape but down played it in public showing that he knew all the dangers on February 7th but he did not do anything about it then.”
Are you saying that Trump is smarter than the average person? We all had access to the information that Trump had, yet because Trump felt that it will be worse than we all believed, he should have said so? What difference would that have made?
Major politicians (across both parties) have publicly downplayed the virus before it became bad.daniela,
“Trump failed and he should resign, and certainly not seek reelection. Compare with Bush.”
Why so?
Did he take action despite the heat from the democrats?
What actions should he have taken that would have made any difference?
Furthermore, if all the information was readily available for everyone why didn’t anyone speak up about the supposed actions that would have been effective?
Almost all the decisions were done on a state and local level, but I guess blaming the President is better for politics.
Reb Eliezer,
“Be honest and tell the truth”
a. Trump did not have access to information that was not available to regular citizens.
b. The economy stuff was all done on a state or local level.As of now, there is no action(s) that have been proven to be effective.
Jackk,
That’s why a 4 or 8 year term is a good thing. It limits the damage that any president can do.
“According to the Woodward tapes, Trump could have saved thousands by being honest early in February about the coronavirus and not down playing it for his fear of panic.”
Exactly what would Trump, or anyone else need to do to save lives?
Jackk,
“All the sanctions will accomplish is to make the Iranian people suffer. Nothing more.”
Or, it might convince the Iranian people to revolt, to choose a better life than the higher mission of destroying Israel.
“My point is that those who think that Obama was the Great Anti-Semite because he wanted to make a nuclear treaty with Iran and that Trump is a genius because he threw away the treaty have not been proven correct.”
Missing one keyword, yet. Have not YET been proven correct.
Some posters are just so predictable.
N0m,
Anything is possible.
N0m,
He had an officer in a headlock, taser was deployed yet was not effective. What else needs to happen to satisfy your minimum requirements for resisting arrest?
n0m,
In the tri-state areas especially the frum places, there is minimal mask wearing and no noticeable social distancing going on.
It has been like that for a few months.
N0m,
“ Why couldn’t the officers just leave?”
A. He assaulted an officer.
B. I believe it was reported he had an arrest warrant.
C. He had a weapon.
D. He was getting into a car with minors together with a weapon.Just a few reasons why they just couldn’t leave.
Health,
I am not sure why your asking me to do anything.
N0m,
No, but its a false assurance, as changes can happen rapidly and usually unnecessary for someone that has zero respiratory related symptoms.Does not seem like a contradiction to me.
ubiquitin,
I glanced at the chart, not everything is simple, this needs someone that is good at math and statistics. There are a number of differences between the two groups.
Meaning, HCQ is not the only difference between these groups.
I have not really been following this thread, but an interesting study on this topic.
TItle:
Use of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalised COVID-19 patients is associated with reduced mortality: Findings from the observational multicentre Italian CORIST studyConclusions
HCQ use was associated with a 30% lower risk of death in COVID-19 hospitalized patients. Within the limits of an observational study and awaiting results from randomized controlled trials, these data do not discourage the use of HCQ in inpatients with COVID-19.I have not yet read the actual study, aside from the abstract and the conclusion.
Also, it seems that they did focus on hospitalized patients and measured mortality.
Srivka,
“Hatzolah and Bikur Cholim (as well as many individuals) have pulse-oximeters that they usually can lend out”
I believe they are or were actually handing them out to anyone that needed them, these are cheap devices.
Health,
I am not going to argue on someones story/facts, especially when I am not privy to the actual details. I do not take my advice from random online posters. (we are all random online posters, including myself, always assume that any poster, despite their online persona is a nobody posting from their mothers basement).
Read the whole Post – Next Time:
“COVID-19 symptoms such as cough, fever, and(/or) shortness of breath.”That was my point, the advice is specifically for those with symptoms that include the respiratory symptoms, how mild they might feel it might be a good idea to do a pulse ox check. But not a blanket piece of advice for everyone.
Health,
“The title of this Topic is Covid Breathing – So why are you comparing it to the General Public?!?”
I am not understanding your question.“I think the American Lung Assoc. is off Base on this one.
There is No Reason NOT to do Home Pulse-Ox!”
The question was not if there is any reason not to do it, rather if there is any reason yes to do it. And if this is sound public advice. Some believe that yes.“If you are symptomatic that is a reasonable time to check your oxygen.”
What symptoms? Achy bones?n0mesorah,
“This report leaves us guessing as to what started the altercation. Arrest for open warrant? Trespassing? Just a disagreement? Insults? The big difference is why could he not just leave in peace. Even if this is to be the whole story, I would still disagree with you on both points.”
Why would it matter what and how the altercation started?
For argument’s sake, let us assume that the altercation was unjustified and could have been avoided at an earlier stage and diffused. At this point in the altercation, what other options did these police officers have?
You keep on mentioning that there is the potential threat of someone else who is not involved in the altercation that can shoot at the police, why do you believe this to be a considerable threat, has that yet happened. To me, this seems to be a suicide act, for someone to start shooting at three armed police officers.
“What is wrong with him getting into his car with his children with his knife? I carry a knife all the time. Is it against the law for me to have children in my car?
Fatal force is reserved only for life treating or some defensive situations. If your point is that the police were scared that he would attack his kids, that was my storyline. Nobody reported that.”
You really need this to be spelled out?
Carrying a knife, vs physically attacking police officers then holding the knife as they attempt to arrest you and disobey their orders to lay down the weapon (which you would are allowed to carry) is a considerable threat.
I am not sure if the officers were aware that these are his children or not., Or if this even makes any difference. They were faced with a situation if the suspect who is a known criminal ends up harming the children. Would it be on them?
You have yet to offer an alternative action that you deem would be appropriate for this exact scenario.
The sad part is, that anything that happens these days all sides try to use this to further they political narrative without caring about due process. Thus ruining due process, which is scary.
Syag,
“What were you refering to in your second response?”
To this
“There have been enough people with covid symptoms put on vents or compressed o2 due to low levels”
There have been so many people (all with good intentions) that have made a lot of public announcements, thus driving the public crazy.
Everyone is free to do as they see fit, But having a million people get pulse oximeters when in general people with no shortness of breath (or being out of breath or unable to walk around the room) or any other breathing symptoms will not have a lower than usual sp02 reading.
On the other hand, some people that had very good readings had a sudden decrease in saturations and deteriorated very rapidly.
It is not very clear as to the etiology of this. There are many theories.
Syag, those were usually associated with being out of breath with some exertion.
Syag,
“Thats a bit of a flippant response.”
I am not discounting anyone elses opinion, we are all entitled to our opinions, I have not done anything other than stating my opinion. You are free to do as you please and as you understand.
“What would be a reason not to use a pulse oximeter?”
Not necessarily any reason not to, but in general not necessary.
If we would do random EKGs on people in shopping centers, or other diagnostics, we would probably catch a few people with heart attacks or other stuff, but in general its not necessary.
From Yale Medicine.
Should you buy a pulse oximeter?
There is debate among doctors about whether or not people need a pulse oximeter in their medical supply kits at home. “In normal times, unless a patient has true lung disease, there is no need for them to use pulse oximetry monitoring,” says Denyse Lutchmansingh, MD, a Yale Medicine pulmonologist. But these aren’t normal times. The American Lung Association advises against buying pulse oximeters unnecessarily and recommends people focus their awareness on other COVID-19 symptoms. However, in a recent New York Times opinion piece, an emergency physician from New Hampshire said if resources were directed toward earlier detection of silent hypoxia, doctors could do more to keep those patients off ventilators.
At this point, Dr. Lutchmansingh says the benefits of pulse oximetry monitoring are most clear among patients who have COVID-19 symptoms such as cough, fever, and shortness of breath. “If you are symptomatic that is a reasonable time to check your oxygen. That is something we’ve been trying to do from an outpatient standpoint,” she says. “We have COVID-19 patients who we are monitoring at home and one of the deciding factors for bringing them into the hospital is their oxygen level.”
– Cough, Shortness of breath.
Syag,
That is not necessarily the case, a lot of patients were monitored at home (with respiratory symptoms, borderline sp02, oxygen concentrators) and a lot of them had a rapid decrease in sp02. This was usually not due to a gradual decline in oxygenation saturation.
OtherTzad,
Are you saying that you had zero breathing symptoms at the time?
Most people that had symptoms, had mild symptoms that did not correlate with the extreme low peripheral sp02s, but I do not think that they had zero respiratory symptoms.
Telling people who have aches and weakness not associated with exertion to keep on measuring their sp02, seems a bit too much.
Syag,
“Er docs said people walked in to the er texting and talking with oxygen levels below 60. For this reason”
Why did they present themselves to the ER?
As pointed out, some people have had extremely low oxygen saturations, which are usually only seen on extremely sick patients, such as those that are in severe respiratory distress and are nearing cardiac arrest (peri-arrest).
Some providers have reported talking to patients with sp02s of 30 and 40. And had a registered sp02 of zero on another patient.
This was new and crazy.
But I have not heard of people with zero respiratory distress or dyspnea with sp02s in the 60s.
The following was on one of the news networks.
“The man who made the widely seen cellphone video of the shooting, 22-year-old Raysean White, said he saw Blake scuffling with three officers and heard them yell, “Drop the knife! Drop the knife!” before gunfire erupted. He said he didn’t see a knife in Blake’s hands.
The Kenosha police union said Blake had the knife and refused orders to drop it. Blake fought with police, including putting one officer in a headlock, the union said. Police twice used a Taser, which did not stop Blake.”
Question, if the facts are as this report, what other options did the police have at the time?
Taser, already deployed and did not seem to work.
So what now? allow the suspect who is armed with a knife to get into the car with the children?
Are the cops only to use deadly force if their own lives are in immediate danger?
Syag,
Most people that had oxygen levels that were low usually had some breathing issues. What was weird was that the low saturations usually was way worse than the presentation. Usually, only patients that are very sick have very low oxygenation levels, with COVID even people with general decent presentations, and only mild respiratory symptoms had low oxygen levels.
Syag,
Disagreement is healthy.. But I believe that if one has zero breathing related issues. (zero as in not feeling short of breath after a brief walk around the room), it is unlikely that their oxygenation is effected.
If someone suspects they have COVID and does not have any breathing issues, such as shortness of breath, coughing, or any other breathing related symptoms (such as shortness of breath after a relative normal exertion), there is no need to check the oxygen saturation.
Jackk
“N0mesorah, if it is true that a health risk does not bother you on Trump then it shouldn’t bother you regarding Biden”
Different health concerns have different implications, cognitive issues will impede a president from doing his job the way he should.
The same cannot be said for something such as high blood pressure or other chronic illnesses.
A lot of people do not like Trump, but he does not have a cognitive issue.
Jackk
“2scents, are you a Doctor that can confirm that when someone needs two hands to lift up a glass of water there is no concern?
I did not say he had a stroke. If you can question Biden’s health, I can question Trump’s.”I would never use the argument of authority in a discussion, its silly and distracts from the actual argument.
You made a statement about two incidents that are months apart and mean nothing. You are not questioning the president’s health, you are just making absurd statements without any basis.
I am not questioning Bidens mental capacity, since we cannot evaluate him ourselves, it will all be subjective.
The facts are that he is being controlled and not on the open, there are no free questioning and everything he does is carefully monitored. This is a deviation of normal practice and is concerning.
That seems to be an objective observation.
Jackk
“It takes a great deal of chutzpah and hypocrisy for Trump to hammer Biden on an issue that he might also have”
a. The alleged condition that you brought up was for a CVA/TIA, not at all what is being pointed out on Biden.
b. He might have, but also might not have, which as per your logic would make it OK for Trump to point it ou.
c. You have not made a good case regarding Trump having a stroke, but for some reason you accept it as fact.
d. I do not know what Biden has or not, but it is fact that he is not doing what presidential nominees usually do, he does not take random press questions, and appearances are limited to a very small number of people at a time. This is not how things are supposed to be done, and it does give the appearance as if they are hiding something.
daniela,
“Why no one is mentioning that AVOIDING covid-19 is a very real possibility, has no side effects, and works?”
Because we are not really sure what works and what does not work.
Jackk
I am not sure what you are latching on, I just checked the alleged incident that might or might have not happened was in November of 2019. The claim is that the president had a stroke, yet the facts are not adding up, as there is no evidence of any symptoms that people with strokes have.
Oh, and the water incident appears to have been in June of 2020.
If you see a person picking up a cup using two hands, yet has no other noticeable neurological deficits, no need to be concerned.
Your handing on to conspiracy theories, it seems that Trump is not the person you would prefer being the president of the United States, I understand this and might even be that I share the same sentiment as you. But that does not make it ok to make up your own facts.
Jackk
You have certain statements that are unfounded. Those statements do not add up with the neurological deficits one would normally see on a patient that has the conditionyou alleged the president had.
jackk
Those are conspiracy theories. People with neurological deficits would have obvious signs, such as unsteady gate and unilateral deficits, and if this would have been an active medical issue Trump would need to disappear for more than just a few hours.
“The virus is not a hoax, It is real and affects our communities. I don’t care if others think its OK to protest and risk getting themselves sick.”
a. we still do not really know how best to contain it. NY despite its aggressive measures was hit the worst.
b. was there any increase in hospitalizations after the protests? Maybe mass gatherings and more asymptomatic positives are a good thing, as it increases herd immunity?n0msesorah,
Thanks for admitting that the facts are not clear (to us), which is enough of a reason not to rush to judgment. There are enough ways of explaining this in a way that justifies the actions of the police and there are a lot of questions that should be answered.
But the mainstream media and looters are capitalizing on this unfortunate situation and don’t really care about the facts, whatever they may be.
“I am not referring to what you think. I am recalling some of the drivel that has been inferred on this topic. If you can please enlighten me, as to what the implications of your post meant to you’
I dont think much, and my opinion doesnt matter much. It is the facts that are available and the due process that matters. If the facts turn out to prove one way or another that is all that we have.
Your post is based on the implication that Floyd was killed by the cops.
Yet it might very much be that all the cop did was hold Floyd down to the floor without occluding his airway or any blood vessels and it was the large dose of opiate that Floyd (might have) consumed that caused the respiratory depression or apnea.
Whatever did or did not happen, its for sure the optics are not good and Floyd did not ‘deserve’ to die. Yet, the question really is if he was killed by the cops or by the opiates in his system. Would the outcome be any different if he would have been seated in the back seat without any force. Fentanyl is pretty fast acting, if he just consumed a rather large dose of fenatnyl, he might have arrested in the back seat of the police vehicle.
Unless one gets a kick out of looting and rioting, any rush to judgement is bad and might one day come back to bite someone else.
The latest filing of the Hennepin County Medical Examiner shows that George Floyd had fatal levels of fentanyl levels and had Floyd been found dead at home, it would have been ruled an overdose death.
Furthermore, the autopsy revealed no physical evidence suggesting that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxiation.