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AAQ,
I appreciate that your all for mask wearing and social distancing, but as an individual we cannot decide to make this into a torah ruling and even compare this to the mitzvah of sukkah. At least until our Rabbis and leaders do not tell us so.
I am also sure you appreciate the fact that some communities that have extremely low vaccination and clearly disregard for social distancing and have normal minyanim and normal gatherings, have not seen any worrying increase in covid cases, just a few small scale breakthrough cases.
While I am not advocating for anything, we are still in the process of figuring this out, and we don’t have all the answers. So this observation should be taken into consideration.
Maybe it was wrong to close the schools, because the communities that had normal schools while the rest of country was being home schooled likely had the majority of kids infected (probably completely asymptomatic) with Covid, mitigating the current issue about kids being vectors (carriers) of the virus.
Also, the lack of social distancing and masking probably increased natural herd immunity in these communities, especially among the younger low risk group during the 1st wave, essentially protecting the entire community from additional widespread waves.
Im not an expert in these matters, but lets not fool ourselves making believe we have all the answers. In fact, there was so much that we held initially to be the truth only to be considered now as fiction. For example, Motrin being bad for those infected, stay away from steroids, early intubation. All of those are now considered bad medicine. But at the time, with the information at hand those seemed to be the best option.
Health
“Your rattling about the needs for testing & trials, shouldn’t have applied.
The same way they tested the vaccines for Covid – Human Guinea Pigs!”Are you trying to argue that the rules should be bent? Or are you arguing that despite the mentioned treatment having found no benefit, and despite the entire medical community having moved on from what seemed to be hypothetically promising, we should still cling to one specific treatment?
You seem to be advocating and even seem bothered by the fact that the government (as well almost all established medical associations) are not on the same page with your treatment protocol. But, is there any reliable data that supports your treatment protocol?
At this point we unfortunately have had way to many Covid patients. However, we also have a lot of data, so some theories can be eliminated and some can be looked at with greater interest.
We can’t stay stuck with one initial hypothetical potential treatment protocol.
HaKat
“I have seen online that people claim….”
Thanks for starting off with letting everyone know the source to the claim.
HaKatan
“It’s true that hospitals were overwhelmed in the beginning”
Your making up your own facts, all hospitals, not just those in NYC were full beyond capacity, converting other units into covid units and other staff into Covid ICU staff.
Your also admitting that this is not just a flu, but your using the ship to further justify that it was not that bad. Im not really sure how that makes sense, if its just the flu, then why would the ship be needed?
Im not sure about the specifics as to why the ship wasnt used. However, the ship was only to be used for non covid patients, relieving the hospitals from the regulat burden so they can cope with the covid patients. It so turned out that most patients were covid patients.
With regards to some treatments that are not being used. Keep in mind, medicine is not something in which one decides on a treatment and all just follow. It needs to be tested and trialed. Well, what if the treatment is bogus? Should we still push for it become some decided on their own that it’s effective?
The rate of development for treatment and management for Covid pts has been done on a scale never seen before, unfortunately there is a lot of available data of treatments that work and those that do not, and in what phases of the disease process they are effective and when not.
So pushing a treatment that by some theory and some hypothetical would be effective but was not been able to be proven to be effective, is not doing anyone any good.
Refuah Shleima!
Keep in mind that some treatments are more effective if done earlier in the disease process.
Reb Eliezer.
“Trump downplaying its effect.”
Why are you blaming Trump for saying the same thing that everyone else was saying at the time. Initially, no one was taking the virus seriously, not Fauci not the media, not any association. But for some reason Trump was supposed to be the one to say that this is more serious than we really believe it to be?
How should is it that he would have medical-related information that others do not have? Oh, is it because he said that he had a feeling that it is more serious than others thought it to be, which was why he limited travel from affected countries?
Or is it because some feel the importance of playing politics and attributing blame to candidates that they dislike for no reason?
akuperma
If you want to be taken somewhat seriously you will have to be realistic. The hospitals were beyond capacity with critical patients, despite deferring elective procedures and discharging other patients sooner than they would normally do so, and despite the fact that many people with other diseases did not go to the hospital.
While i am sure that the politicians will point fingers at each other, Biden will blame Trump and Trump will blame Biden.
Yet, one thing remains clear, there are many people that have and will lose their life in a very brutal way, its a horrific situation and should have never come to this. If one has any regard for human life it should bother them to the core.
jdf007
Is there any state in the USA that the government successfully handled Covid?
smerel
But a Healthy 20 year old can be a vector and host to the virus which can cause an older person to become infected.
Seems that the OP started a few threads about this, puts out something explosive and then ignores the follow-ups and questions.
BaalHabooze
Would you know any more specific information aside from saying that the person you know had a heart inflammation? Was it pericarditis, myocarditis, or endocarditis?
While the person you are referring to has unfortunately passed, you are making a correlation to the vaccine that was taken recently.
Was it the first or second dose?
Did the inflammation progress rapidly, minutes to hours?
While you may say that these details dont matter, you are making accusations and trying to convince people one way or another in a public forum, so please provide some more details to what actually happened.
philosopher
“The CNBC reported on July 30th that 74% of people infected in Massachusetts Covid outbreak were fully vaccinated.”
Carrying the virus is not the same as being sick with the virus, most of those that were carriers were asymptomatic.
You are oversimplifying something that is complex.
Preliminary data suggest that natural immunity from previous strains is below the desired level when it comes to the delta strain.
When compared to vaccine acquired immunity, while less effective than the previous strains, it still is within the desired range of immunity.
there is not a lot of data on the delta variant, but below is from an article in nature named:
Reduced sensitivity of SARS-CoV-2 variant Delta to antibody neutralization“We examined the sensitivity of this strain to monoclonal antibodies and to antibodies present in sera from individuals who had recovered from COVID-19 (hereafter referred to as convalescent individuals) or who had received a COVID-19 vaccine, and then compared this strain with other strains of SARS-CoV-2. The Delta variant was resistant to neutralization by some anti-NTD and anti-RBD monoclonal antibodies, including bamlanivimab, and these antibodies showed impaired binding to the spike protein. Sera collected from convalescent individuals up to 12 months after the onset of symptoms were fourfold less potent against the Delta variant relative to the Alpha variant (B.1.1.7).”
Rational,
“This is a corporate issue where the owner of all subsidiaries (unilever) is indeed 100% responsible for all corporate decisions (including Ben and Jerry’s) and if they disagree with a decision they can reverse it. ”
If you glance at the merger documents, this is not the case. While B&J is fully owned by Unilever, they still maintain their own board and their own decision-making capacity. There are clauses and limitations as to what can be overwritten and what not.
This is somewhat of a complex matter.
B&Js created a legal structure that puts social responsibilities as part of their decision-making process. Their boards are obligated to do so. (they are a B-Corp).
Unilever now owns B&J. Yet, B&J has an independent board.
The B&J board is required to submit their yearly business and social plan for Unilever, Unilever has the right to reject the plan. As long as it is done in good faith. It so seems that Unilever may only reject their yearly plan if they disagree with the financial aspect of it.
This leaves Unilever in a tight spot. They might not love Isreal that much, but they do not want to lose market share. They are a financial company and not a social company.
I am sure there are some loopholes, such as determining that the social decisions of the board are not in line with socially accepted standards and actually are causing conflict. Furthermore, they may use the clause that allows them to reject the yearly business plan based on the potential for lost revenue.
The merger/sale agreement is public information.
Phil
You keep using the word I believe but make sure to label your claims as facts but are unable to cite a decent source.
This makes it difficult to have a reasonable discussion, as you can make random statements and decide that they are facts, when they are just fiction.
philosopher
“My opinions are based on facts even if you don’t agree with them, unlike your supposed “fact” that natural RNAs don’t enter the nucleus which is totally false.”
Would you be so kind as to point out the source to this, so we can establish if this is fact or fiction?
Your argument against vaccines and preventive medicine has nothing to do with the Covid19 vaccine. This topic has been discussed and in the past by leaders of and leading poskim. The fact that you “believe” it to be unacceptable, should not concern others.
IYK,
It seems that you suffered a lot, assuming the facts are what you said them to be, is terrible.
There is no justification to abuse another human being. However, while religion might have been used as a means for the abuse, it is not the religion or the Torah that caused the abuse. It is the sick individuals that have done so.
They would have done so regardless of their religious beliefs, and others with similar levels of religion do not endure any abuse due to their religious beliefs.
I do hope that you continue to heal, in whichever way works for you.
That said, the Torah is what it is, we do not get to change it. If you do need a different understanding in order to help you heal or survive, that has nothing to do with the rest of the world.
You should have a speedy and complete recovery.
IYK
“Clearly you’ve all made up your mind that you know everything. Please explain the storms right now all over the world…”
It seems that you are engaging in the same behavior of which you are accusing others. We might not understand or know the reason for everything, but we still follow the written and oral law giving to us by Hashem. It is you that seems to believe that you understand the reasoning behind everything.
While everyone should discuss matters concerning health with the health care providers that they trust.
The concern when it comes to children and Covid is not just that children may be carriers, but also because of potential long haul symptoms associated with Covid, even asymptomatic Covid.
While most of the Covid data is concerning adults we now have some data on children, mainly out of the UK. But also from the tri-state area, a lot of what we thought to be true were misconceptions.
We all have a right to make our decisions when it comes to everything, including your and your family’s healthcare, but we should at least know the facts.
IYK,
I am sorry if what I wrote hurt your feelings. I dont know who you are or what happened to you in the past, whatever that may be I do hop you get help and are able to heal.
That said, I did take issue with what it seemingly was implied by your posts.
About some of Hashems commandments being arbitrary. While what happened to you might have hurt you to the point where eating on yom kippur and eating non kosher seems ok, the Torah says otherwise. So when some point that out and refuse to accept your subjective interpretation of what Hashem wants, and calls you out for publicly making up what Hashem has said, is not judging you as a human being.
On the topic of consuming meat, the Torah (Hashem’s law) allows us to eat meat. The Creator that created the world from nothing, created man and animal, allowed man to consume the animal.
I am not sure if the OP is a troll, an attempt at getting twisted subliminal messages across while posing as a ‘victim’ or a legitimate victimized individual.
In either case, the premise that connection to Hashem is what one decides it to be is contrary to what Hashem himself has stated. Hashems will is the Torah (written and oral), What you believe to be true, is not what Hashem says is true.
The fact that you are using the alleged suffering you bore as a justification for violating Hashem’s rule, makes it pretty clear that you have a decent understanding of right and wrong, and you are using an excuse to justify the wrong your doing.
I was trying to read your posts objectively, but you gravitate from complaining about people being judgemental (which you are guilty of, as was pointed out by others), to explaining your reasoning for making up how one is connected to Hashem.
If you have personal issues, that is something you need to deal with, and I hope you get help with that, but that does not afford you a license to change Hashem’s word.
“HI!! Thanks for dropping in!”
And thanks for holding this place together for the past couple of months.
My mind is made up. Don’t confuse me with the facts.
HI!! Thanks for dropping in!
CTL,
The example you mentioned does not support your observation.
Because in that instance the explanation for the ruling or recommendation was for financial reasons.
Yet, your accusing rabbonim for having alternative reasons, other than the ones they have expressed.
CTL,
Is your statement factual or just an assumption?
Because you are accusing Rabbonim of having alternative reasons for their rulings.
Are masks risk-free?
No! Especially if you try to swallow them and they get stuck in your airway.
Most treatments, including convalescent plasma, have little to no effect when given late in the disease process.
Especially for sick and intubated patients, there has been almost no difference in outcome.
However, when given early, there has been a lot of good results. This is also why we are seeing less mortality these days as opposed to early on when these otherwise stable patients were only given supportive treatments.
crslkwd
ParticipantThere is a lot of natural stuff that is known to be beneficial, but the statements that you have made are inaccurate and not factual.
I hope that people are smarter than to trust an anonymous online blogger when it comes to medicine.
Are you willing to accept responsibility if anyone Ch”v has a negative outcome due to following the advice that you posted online?
crslkwd,
Dr. B is pushing holistic medicine which has no scientific backing.
He has many such ridiculous treatment regiments.
There are many alternative providers with many alternative claims and made up treatment regiments.
There are a number of patients that have tried this treatment that you have listed and ended up on a ventilator.
There are a number of treatment options for patients that are having respiratory symptoms. Including nebulizers (beta-agonists and steroids).
What I would say in a public forum, the hospitals are fully capable of handling COVID patients, they are not above capacity and some have good treatment protocols, with teams of providers that have enormous experience treating COVID patients.
There has been a lot of positive feedback from recent patients that were admitted. Depending on where you live, I would suggest that if you have problems with your breathing or your primary care provider believes that you should go to the hospital. Rather go earlier than later. There are a number of treatments that are shown to be successful in helping patients recover sooner which means less negative effects on the body.
Checked some of the states metrics, some areas had a spike with a positive rate of 3%, yet it has been stead for a while. in fact, it briefly was above 3%, hopefully it will just get better.
Charlie,
“I tried to raise frum support for Eliot Engel and got nowhere because he is a liberal Democrat. As a result, Israel’s biggest supporter in Washington is being replaced by an anti-Israel zealot.”
I think your making a very valid point, the question really is how can the Jewish voters unite and vote for the candidate that is aligned with our needs?
It seems that whatever has been tried has failed.
“2scents, 100% yes! If someone has the flu and mixes with other people that person is a rotzeach. I’m surprised you had to ask that question thinking it was a point to prove your argument. Pshita”
Shimon,
I was just curious to see if people have this sentiment about calling someone a killer only if they are sick with the Covid19 virus or also with other viruses.
I was not trying to make a point.
N0m,
“ He is the same vigorous yet modest leader, that he was then.”
You do know that a whole lot people question this sentiment and have a lot to go on.
N0m,
Your answering up for the major political candidates is insufficient. I guess the voters will have the last word on that.
“ At this time, words ring hollow.”
A. Its not just now but also during these events.
B. Words are powerful. Politicians openly backed these agitators.
N0m,
“ Do you really thing Joe Biden a politician who was not pro anarchy in the seventies, is supportive of these riots? (Or Harris?)”
What I think, does not matter. Its the action or inaction of the major politicians or major political candidates that matter.
Charlie,
Has trump pardoned any more people than any recent presidents?
n0m,
I will try to respond to your comments/statements.
Dear Two,
“A politician does not have to condemn every act of violence.”
When something as significant and has the effect that these riots and lootings had on the general public, politicians should step up and at minimum voice their opposition to this, otherwise, it seems as if they are for it, not against it.“1. When it happens on their watch.”
Yet a lot of Democratic politicians not only refused to condemn this, but they also backed these ‘peaceful protests’, But you can also add major politicians that are running for the highest political office in the country into the category that should have come out against it.“2. When it comes from their demographic.”
Black violence, what’s that?“Now, why does every political group have to come out and condemn all the violent unrest? Solving today’s conflicts, is a long and complex process. Why make it harder with endless condemnations that do not solve anything?”
Because rioting and hurting innocent citizens on such a grand scale should be condemned, protesting and hurting police officers should be condemned.
What is so hard to understand?
“Dear Two,
I do not get your point. What do you surmise from that?”
It gives the impression that they actually support these events.
n0m,
But there are political groups that have refused to come out and condemn these groups. At least not as much as the other side.
“If someone is positive for covid, and goes around without telling anyone, they are likely considered a murderer.”
Would you say the same for other viral illnesses such as the flu?
N0m,
“I am not a Democrat“
You might or might not be a registered democrat. Yet, your posts in general are supportive of the democratic party and its leaders.
Mrs Plony,
“2cents, please be nice. Reb Eliezer’s argument did have substance.”
Its great to have a decent discussion with a focus on substance and content, but I try to stay away from silly arguments such as this.
“Your post is not worth 2scents. ”
The content of his post was already addressed by another poster earlier.
The point about doctors having experience in infectious and disease, that is about assessing and treating not about how to control a pandemic. As has been evident by a lack of clarity from public and private health officials on what actions to do that would contain the virus, and despite taking a number of measures a lot of areas such as NY and EY have been hit extremely hard.
“(although you could have skipped the first line and still made the same point).“
Nope, then he would actually need to use substance as an argument when he prefers otherwise.
Mrs Plony,
“Have any of the people who refuse to wear masks asked their doctors for input?”
Doctors have a doctorate degree in medicine, not in mask-wearing. There are no COVID experts.
CTLawyer,
“Dina Malchusa Dina………………….”
So was the decree for the Jews not to learn Torah and to attend Achashverushes party.
Some look at the mask laws as decrees, when the government starts deciding who can and who cannot be open, what congregations are ok and what should be banned without scientific reasoning this seems more like a decree. When the government decides what is essential and is selective when creating rules, this is not ok.
“2scents, did you listen to the Woodward tapes?”
no.“Trump said one thing on tape and another in public.”
So what?“He recognized the deadliness on the tape but down played it in public showing that he knew all the dangers on February 7th but he did not do anything about it then.”
Are you saying that Trump is smarter than the average person? We all had access to the information that Trump had, yet because Trump felt that it will be worse than we all believed, he should have said so? What difference would that have made?
Major politicians (across both parties) have publicly downplayed the virus before it became bad.