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“2scents seems to know so much about this issue, he really know how to fardrei a kup in such a smart way.
I would even go so far as to say he doesn’t vaccinate his family.”Truth, I would stay far away from assumptions, you do not know who I am, what my credentials are, I can assure you that I will never use my position of authority to make an argument, now that you accused me of advocating for one thing and practicing another, you should explain what would be my intentions in doing so.
I feel bad that I cause you hardship and that I am actually with easy able to show you that cherry picking data and mispresenting the actual data is not the way to go. If you have made up your mind and no evidence will persuade you, why even participate in this discussion?
“studies have shown that among identical twins, if one child has ASD, then the other will be affected about 36-95% of the time. ”
So explain this, if autism has nothing to do with genetics, a claim you had just made in public. Why is there even a 1% increase in identical twins?
Let alone a 36-95%?!
“It is NOT True that the 3 vaccines were given at a much lower rate.
What is the source for this “fact”?”It is called the “vaccine gap”, since vaccines were no longer mandatory meaning that parents in most cases had to pay for them out of pocket, which resulted in lower vaccination rates.
You seem to focus on the lower vaccination rates, not that the triple jab vs MMR vaccine was rolled out in 1993, yet this study is focused on cohorts of 1988 and on, which means that they followed cohorts that received no MMR shots as well as no triple jab shots.
Its dishonest to make dishonest claims and then accuse someone else of being dishonest, just saying.
“And there is no such think as a GENETIC Epidemic.”
It is a lie to say that something that exists does not exist, all the data shows that autism is genetic, I am sorry that you feel otherwise.
Diagnosis:
Research has shown that a diagnosis of autism at age 2 can be reliable, valid, and stable.
Even though ASD can be diagnosed as early as age 2 years, most children are not diagnosed with ASD until after age 4 years. The median age of first diagnosis by subtype is as follows.
Autistic disorder: 3 years, 10 months
ASD/pervasive developmental disorder (PDD): 4 years, 8 months
Asperger disorder: 5 years, 7 months
Studies have shown that parents of children with ASD notice a developmental problem before their child’s first birthday. Concerns about vision and hearing were more often reported in the first year, and differences in social, communication, and fine motor skills were evident from 6 months of age
— Yet DSM III had this requirement “Onset before 30 months of age”
So basically most children diagnosed today would not fit the DSM III criteria, which means that in the 1990s they would not be classified as autistic and the insurance would not cover for their specialized care.
So that you understand a thing or so about autism.
From the CDC:studies have shown that among identical twins, if one child has ASD, then the other will be affected about 36-95% of the time. In non-identical twins, if one child has ASD, then the other is affected about 0-31% of the time. [1-4]
Parents who have a child with ASD have a 2%–18% chance of having a second child who is also affected.[5,6]
ASD tends to occur more often in people who have certain genetic or chromosomal conditions. About 10% of children with autism are also identified as having Down syndrome, fragile X syndrome, tuberous sclerosis, or other genetic and chromosomal disorders.[7-10]Almost half (44%) of children identified with ASD has average to above average intellectual ability. [Read article]
Children born to older parents are at a higher risk for having ASD.A small percentage of children who are born prematurely or with low birth weight are at greater risk for having ASD.
ASD commonly co-occurs with other developmental, psychiatric, neurologic, chromosomal, and genetic diagnoses. The co-occurrence of one or more non-ASD developmental diagnoses is 83%. The co-occurrence of one or more psychiatric diagnoses is 10%.
SOURCE: CDC/NCHS, National Vital Statistics System, Compressed Mortality File
This graph shows the trends in sudden unexpected infant death (SUID) rates in the United States from 1990 through 2016.
In 1990, the SUID rate, which includes sudden infant death syndrome, unknown cause, and accidental suffocation and strangulation in bed, was 154.6 deaths per 100,000 live births. The SUID rate declined considerably following the release of the American Academy of Pediatrics safe sleep recommendations in 1992, the initiation of the Back to Sleep campaign in 1994, and the release of the Sudden Unexplained Infant Death Investigation Reporting Form in 1996. Since 1999, declines have slowed. In 2016, the SUID rate was 91.4 deaths per 100,000 live births.
Sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) rates declined considerably from 130.3 deaths per 100,000 live births in 1990 to 38.0 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2016So here you have it, using CURRENT criteria to review different cohorts.
Truth
“What about the SIDS study? You’re OK that the public has been fooled into thinking the Back To Sleep campaign lowered SIDS rates, when it never did?”
I find it rather astonishing that you are concerned about changes to SIDS criteria and changes in SIDS rate yet not about ASD rate and the changes to ASD diagnostics. Basically, you are using today’s criteria for ASD on children that were not diagnosed with todays ASD criteria.
With regards to SIDS, being that your positions are that SIDS has increased and not decreased, your argument is based on changes to the SIDS diagnostics, please detail the numbers so that we can see if there was a decrease or an increase. Do that prior to accusing people of a coverup.
Let us say there was a 50% decrease to SIDS, but only a 1.5% increase to suffocation, this would still amount to a significant decrease to SIDS or postneonatal mortality as a whole.
Truth,
Conflict of interest is not dishonest, as long as its disclosed.
SIDS is not dishonest, dishonest is using incorrect facts to create an argument.
Sids and post neonatal mortality has sharply decreased. If you use the correlation argument that would favor vaccines.
A comprehensive overview that proves that there is no epidemic with regards to ASD.
Three Reasons Not to Believe in an Autism Epidemic
Morton Ann Gernsbacher, Michelle Dawson, and H. Hill Goldsmith
Sorry for posting so many different reviews and studies. However there is inaccurate information being spread about the correlation and causation of the so call increase of autism.
The epidemiology of autistic spectrum disorders: is the prevalence rising?
Review article
Wing L, et al. Ment Retard Dev Disabil Res Rev. 2002.
Show full citation
Abstract
For decades after Kanner’s original paper on the subject was published in 1943, autism was generally considered to be a rare condition with a prevalence of around 2-4 per 10,000 children. Then, studies carried out in the late 1990s and the present century reported annual rises in incidence of autism in pre-school children, based on age of diagnosis, and increases in the age-specific prevalence rates in children. Prevalence rates of up to 60 per 10,000 for autism and even more for the whole autistic spectrum were reported. Reasons for these increases are discussed. They include changes in diagnostic criteria, development of the concept of the wide autistic spectrum, different methods used in studies, growing awareness and knowledge among parents and professional workers and the development of specialist services, as well as the possibility of a true increase in numbers. Various environmental causes for a genuine rise in incidence have been suggested, including the triple vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella (MMR]. Not one of the possible environmental causes, including MMR, has been confirmed by independent scientific investigation, whereas there is strong evidence that complex genetic factors play a major role in etiology. The evidence suggests that the majority, if not all, of the reported rise in incidence and prevalence is due to changes in diagnostic criteria and increasing awareness and recognition of autistic spectrum disordersHere’s the 1980 definition of Infantile Autism as it appeared in DSM-III.
A. Onset before 30 months of age
B. Pervasive lack of responsiveness to other people
C. Gross deficits in language development
D. If speech is present, peculiar speech patterns such as immediate and delayed echolalia, metaphorical language, pronominal reversal
E. Bizarre responses to various aspects of the environment, e.g., resistance to change, peculiar interest in or attachments to animate or inanimate objects
F. Absence of delusions, hallucinations, loosening of associations, and incoherence as in Schizophrenia.And here is how the equivalent items are phrased in the current version, DSM-5, under Autism Spectrum Disorder:
A. Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities or may be masked by learned strategies later in life).
B. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity must be present (or have been present earlier in development). However, these can range from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back and forth conversation through reduced sharing of interests, emotions, and affect and response to total lack of initiation of social interaction
C. ASD can be diagnosed with or without accompanying language impairment
D. “Peculiar speech patterns” are not required for a diagnosis. However, echolalia and idiosyncratic phrases are considered examples of Stereotyped or repetitive movements, use of objects, or speech – one of four nonsocial features (see E below)
E. Any two of the following must be present (currently or earlier in development): (1) Stereotyped use of objects; (2) Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behaviour; (3) Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus; (4) Hyper- or hypo-reactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment
F. Hallucinations and delusions, which are defining features of schizophrenia, are not features of ASDit’s fair to say that the majority of people whom we would today think of as being “on the spectrum” would not have come close to a diagnosis in the 1980s.
“But let’s take it one study at a time.
Don’t you agree it is fraudulent for the summary of the study to say how after MMR was withdrawn the autism was rate went up”A. Andrew Wakfield who is the father of the autism MMR conspiracy made the claim that the combo MMR vaccine is the cause of autism.
B. You failed to read that the MONO MR vaccine was started in 1993. They initially halted vaccines and only restarted them in 1993, even when they did restart them as single vaccines, vaccination rates were very low.
This resulted in large measles epidemics and an estimated of about 100 deaths per year, as per Jappan health ministry estimates.
A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism
Kreesten Meldgaard Madsen, M.D., Anders Hviid, M.Sc., Mogens Vestergaard, M.D., Diana Schendel, Ph.D., et al.Andrew Wakefield wrote to the authors that the mercury is a factor in vaccines that causes autism and they have not taken that into consideration when doing the very large study.
This is the editors respond:
“Dr. Wakefield argues that we should have controlled for mercury exposure from vaccines. However, mercury — or more precisely, the vaccine preservative thimerosal that contains ethyl mercury — has not been used in Danish vaccines since 1992 and thus was not a confounder in the study.”From Autism speaks:
“No MMR-Autism Link in Large Study of Vaccinated vs. Unvaccinated Kids
Study of over 95,000 children included 15,000 unvaccinated 2 to 5 year olds and nearly 2,000 kids already considered at high risk for autismApril 21, 2015
In the largest-ever study of its kind, researchers again found that the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine did not increase risk for autism spectrum disorder (ASD). This proved true even among children already considered at high risk for the disorder.
In all, the researchers analyzed the health records of 95,727 children, including more than 15,000 children unvaccinated at age 2 and more than 8,000 still unvaccinated at age 5. Nearly 2,000 of these children were considered at risk for autism because they were born into families that already had a child with the disorder.
The report appears today in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association.
“Consistent with studies in other populations, we observed no association between MMR vaccination and increased ASD risk,” the authors write. “We also found no evidence that receipt of either one or two doses of MMR vaccination was associated with an increased risk of ASD among children who had older siblings with ASD.”
The analysis looked at autism rates and MMR vaccination at ages 2, 3, 4 and 5 years. It showed no increased risk of autism with immunization at any age. In fact, autism rates were lower in the vaccinated groups. However, this might be because parents who see early signs of autism were more likely to delay or avoid vaccination, the authors speculate.
Lower vaccination rates among families affected by autism
Some 15 year ago, a small, now-discredited study sparked concerns about a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Since then, a large and growing body of research has continued to find no association. Still, the continuing uncertainty around what does cause autism has left some people worried. Such concerns likely explain why vaccination rates have dropped in families that have an older child with the disorder.In the new study, MMR vaccination rates for children without an affected older siblings were 84 percent at 2 years and 92 percent by age 5 years. Vaccination rates for children with an older sibling affected by autism were significantly lower: 73 percent at 2 years and 86 percent at age 5 years.
In an accompanying editorial, Dr. Bryan King, director of the Seattle Children’s Autism Center, writes:
“Taken together, some dozen studies have now shown that the age of onset of ASD does not differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, the severity or course of ASD does not differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, and now the risk of ASD recurrence in families does not differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated children.”
Study made possible by large database
The investigators performed their analysis using the claims records from a large US health plan database (the Optum Research Database). Participants included children continuously enrolled in an associated health plan from birth to at least 5 years of age between 2001 and 2012. All had an older sibling.Of the 95,727 children in the study, around 1 percent (994) were diagnosed with autism during the study’s follow-up period. Among those who had an older sibling with autism (1,929), approximately 7 percent (134) developed the disorder. This difference in autism prevalence – between children with or without an older sibling affected by autism – is consistent with earlier studies. “
Dooms.
Your confusing the dates. 93 is when they began giving the mono shots. Yet at much lower rates compared to elsewhere.
1988 is when they paused the MMR vaccines.
The cohorts that were matched were from 1988 and upward.
Popping back in here.
Truth,
Not ony has SIDS declined significantly. Postneonatal mortality has declined.
While some changes they are better at being more specific in diagnosing childhood deaths, the increase to most categories are marginal so the net decrease in SIDS and post neonatal mortality has sharply declined.
Please dont confuse the facts, use them, dont confuse them.
Dooms.
Doomsday: “Siblings of children with autism who are 100% UNVAXXED do NOT have autism!”
2Cents:”I have posted many sources of data that clearly demonstrate otherwise, ”Unlike you, I have no problem stating that I was not referring to 100% unvaxxed, we have been down this route before, not sure why you are so into the gotcha aspect.
The focus has only been on the MMR, as that was the only vaccine for which an autism link was considered due to the fraudulent study from Wakefield.
If you argue that it is the other vaccines that are causing autism, you would have to prove that hypothesis.
At this point, genetics have been shown to be the primary factor.
Also, while these studies were focused on the MMR. The group that was unvaxxed (with the MMR, which was the focus) very likely had a significant percentage that withheld other vaccines, as apparently anti vaxxers are not just against the MMR vaccine. Yet that was not the focus of the studies.
Are you arguing that other vaccines and not MMR vaccine cause autism, only because the data shows that MMR does not cause autism, or there a different reason to that?
“I have posted about websites linking Vaccines to Autism – and most are NOT about MMR!”
None of your posts are really worthy of a response, creating facts and just writing fraud does not warrant a response. Any response or explanation will just result in a recycled response of derogatory name-calling.
I have never understood why radical anti vaxxers are dismissed as silly people, if this is the way you have a discussion, mainly by just writing in CAPS fraud or liar and pondering to ‘folks’ that someone lied, there is no way that you unsubstantiated emotional arguments can be taken seriously.
This line of your is very telling, you have a bunch of websites that have stated that vaccines are linked to autism? wow!
Other than yourself, there have been no claims that vaccines are linked to autism other than the MMR vaccine. Unless you believe that the anti vaxxers are part of the conspiracy that they are are just puppets of the pharmaceutical companies that are distracting everyone from realizing that it is the other vaccines that cause autism.
In the meantime, you can focus on degrading and labeling anyone that is not invested in your theories and ridiculous arguments.
Dooms,
“2Cents – Are you going to admit you LIED when you said there is Data supporting that
100% Unvaccinated Children get Autism at the same rate as Vaccinated Children???”Not sure why you are going for the labels and not sure why you say that I made any claims.
What I stated and presented just some of the many available data, that there it has been established that autism as other diseases are genetic, which explains why younger siblings of autistic children have a much greater chance of being diagnosed with autism than other children without older siblings that have been diagnosed.
You had made the claim that this incorrect and genetics are not the cause, your request for a source has been satisfied. There are many studies that have researched this and concluded the same, now you are asking if these children were 100% vaccinated or not, why would that matter, if vaccines were the primary cause for autism, as you have stated many times, then siblings and genetics would play little to no factor.
I completely understand why your sister would not settle that genetics were the cause of her child’s autism, but the data shows otherwise and does not take feelings or emotions into account.
If you have something of value to add, please do so, if all you can focus on is labeling individuals with CAPS and just going for some gotcha label, your really immature for this type of discussion.
“Prematurity IS a risk factor for Autism – especially because CDC insists that Premature babies be vaccinated!”
Just wondering, with credentials of being a special ed therapist (possibly not even a credentialed therapist) with what authority are you making these statements?
If you were to focus on data and present them, that would be acceptable, otherwise, you have no right making statement of such in a public forum.
It is clear that your mind has been made up, before even looking at the facts, your sister’s emotions and her claim was enough to convince you, while you can decide on your own what to believe and what not to, you have no right making unsubstantiated statements in a public setting.
“OR ADMIT YOU LIED!”
The only Liar is You!”
Health, distraction tactics, diluting a discussion and focusing on gotchas and labels is not a mature or productive way to have a discussion.
Dooms and ProV are not going to go for anything that does not support their already made up hypothesis that vaccines are the primary cause to autism, regardless of the amount of research or the different large entities that reviewed this in a very transparent matter. This is their decision, I just hope they realize why the rest of us dont follow their cult-like position.
Here is another of many,
JAMA Nov 2017
“Abstract
Importance Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is known to be more prevalent among males than females in the general population. Although overall risk of recurrence of ASD among siblings has been estimated to be between 6.1% and 24.7%, information on sex-specific recurrence patterns is lacking.”Since you are a special ed therapist (not sure if credentialed or not), you probably know that ASD is many times more prevalent in males than in females. This clearly is in line with the established conclusion that there is no link between vaccines and autism as it is primarily a genetic disorder.
Dooms,
Yes there a re a number of such studies, here is just one of many.
(I’ll check with my chavrusa or my sister what they feel about this later)JAMA Psychiatry. 2015;72(5):415-423. doi:10.1001/jamapsychiatry.2014.3028
“Conclusions
The present study combines the strengths of previous studies and provides a more complete picture than any of them individually by being nationally representative and incorporating dimensional and categorical measures using a systematic repeated screening method. We conclude that liability to ASD and a more broadly defined high-level autism trait phenotype in UK twins 8 years or older derives from substantial genetic and moderate nonshared environmental influences. Genetic influences on diagnosed ASD are shared with those on autistic traits in the general population.“ProV,
You stated that Congress requested a study.
Yet I asked you what happened to the request you claim was made.
Being that you claim to know a thing, (you wrote something about “ And they get a mouth full of water“) please dont move on before backing up your claims.
The distraction tactic might work, you can ignore the need for sources to your claim, just dump more nonsense and dilute the discussion.
Unless your like Dooms, makes up facts (or just takes them from radical websites) the. Writes in CAPS lie or fraud, for some reason believes that this is something that deserves or requires a response.
Hey, i said your lying and that they lied about the data, prove to me that they didnt lie..
“And you can whine and act arrogant as much as you want. ”
If by arrogant you mean well versed and respectful discussion, thats fine.
If you mean name calling, labeling individuals with CAPS and relying on non reliable sources while making accusations that are baseless and repeating claims that have been proven to be incorrect while in the same time jeopardizing public health. I would assume your referring to Dooms.
Prov,
Define fake stats vs real stats?
Source or authority that made the claim that mosts cases (assume you are referring to the measles) were vaccinated children.
Explain what about the law needs explaining or defending.
Remember, arguments are either based on logic or fact, if you arguements are based on facts, you will need to establish these facts. Otherwise your arguments cannot be taken serious.
And please stop about your chavrusa, it has no validity and carries no weight in this discussion. This not skme mikva shmooze.
Dooms,
“Autism rate went from 1:10,000 (1970) to 1:50 (today) after CDC quadrupled the vaccine schedule.”
You have repeatedly made this claim, it has been answered many times. You do not get extra points for just repeating it.
Yes there has been an increase in children that were diagnosed with ASD, yet there are many things that can explain or be blamed for this, vaccines have been studied more than anything else, thanks to the claims that have been made, despite being shown to be fraudulent data, the supposed link between vaccines and autism has been extensively studied, more than anything else in medicine. millions of children, many different studies by different entities, the conclusion, the link does not exist.
By you blaming the parents of the children you work with, you are not doing anyone a favor and you are making them feel bad for something that is not even true.
“What happens when one worships the idol of science?”
Most of it is recycled stuff, there is nothing new, most posts are silly back and forths, with a few posters labeling others using CAPS.
There is no worshipping here unless you’re referring to worshipping a cult-like belief about a wild conspiracy, otherwise, this is a public health issue for which we have real data to guide us.
Dooms,
“Siblings of children with autism who are 100% UNVAXXED do NOT have autism!”
If write it four times, and use exclamation points, some might take it as fact. If however you review the data, then what you wrote is incorrect.
I have posted many sources of data that clearly demonstrate otherwise, but who cares about data, its not written by ‘real PhDs’.
So snopes is an acceptable source?
From Snopes:
“Claim: Zimmerman’s knowledge about a potential circumstance in which a vaccine could theoretically affect ASD was hidden from the public until he came forward in 2018: FALSE
In her report, Attkisson states that “Dr. Zimmerman … privately told government lawyers that vaccines can, and did cause autism in some children. That turnabout … stood to change everything about the vaccine-autism debate. If the public were to find out.” In point of fact, the theory that vaccination could potentially be a stressor leading to autism in children with a specific form of mitochondrial dysfunction was explicitly stated in Zimmerman’s 2006 case report. That topic has been studied in the public forum for over a decade now. The existence of an alleged mitochondrial disorder-autism link, which remains murky to this day, is not news now, and it would not have been news during the time the omnibus cases were deliberated.
Additionally, following the omnibus cases, Zimmerman has served as an expert witness in autism cases for petitioners to the vaccine court in cases in which his mitochondrial dysfunction mechanism has been argued, and his statements are easily found in filings made public by the federal government. In a case heard by the vaccine court in 2012, for example, the petitioners argued that a pre-existing mitochondrial dysfunction caused their child to develop autism symptoms after vaccination. They used Dr. Zimmerman, who had treated the patient years later, as one of their expert witnesses, and his testimony is described in detail in the court filing. In that case, the special master characterized Zimmerman’s views as anecdotal in rejecting the petitioner’s claim:”
Whether vaccination can [can cause decompensation or regression in children with inborn errors of metabolism], even in these most vulnerable children, has not been established… The most glaring problem, however, is that no evidence adduced in this case, other than the anecdotally based opinions of Dr. Zimmerman, demonstrates that the decompensation or regression induced by illness in children with metabolic or mitochondrial disorders looks like, mimics, or actually results in ASD.
These views have been in the public record for years. The only reason Zimmerman’s testimony is in the news again is that he was compelled to write an affidavit about the 2007 incident by someone with a desire to re-introduce an old controversy back into the news cycle.
The Bottom Line
Zimmerman, a scientist with serious credentials who was once a government expert on vaccines, believes that narrow circumstances might exist in which the combination of pre-existing mitochondrial dysfunction and vaccination could trigger ASD. This view is not held by many scientists, and from a scientific-evidence standpoint it remains speculative. The 2018 deposition given by Zimmerman regarding the 2007 sequence of events during omnibus proceedings was compelled by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., an anti-vaccine activist with a dubious commitment to scientific accuracy, and Rolf Hazlehurst, a litigant in one of the omnibus cases.Finally, it bears mentioning that Dr. Zimmerman supports vaccination. “As a pediatric neurologist and member of the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Child Neurology Society, the American Academy of Neurology and the American Neurological Association, I strongly support the importance of vaccines for all children,” he wrote in his statement:
“Again, why are you calling it a “piece that was put together” instead of the TRUTH:”
Who cares how I called it, I was referring to the ‘news’ piece that you posted here, it was not news, despite you calling it like that.
I urge you to check snopes for most of your other claims, will shed some light on some stuff.
Yet you clearly have not read the content of what I have written (Dr Zimmermans words), you are just hooked up on if what he wrote can pass for ‘vaccines cause autism’ or not. It is the content that matters.
School busses kill children. Is dishonest and not the truth. Yet has no child ever died from a school bus? of course yes. Now once again, it is Dr. ZImmermans opinion that certain children (provax would not care for these children, as they are not regular children) might regress when exposed to a virus or infection.
If that passes for you as ‘vaccines can cause autism’, that’s fine, yet it does not change any facts regardless of which way you play this.
Provax,
“Doomsday I know tha, I just wanna see what 2cents answers to that, so far nobody that’s pro vaxx was able to answer it . The just say that theirs no such law . Then I put in 1986 vaccine law in Google. And they get a mouth full of water.”
So its just you and a handful of people that are aware of this?
You obviously have not read the many posts, this has been brought up by Dooms many times, obviously, she is not interested in the truth and claims that this is all part of some wild conspiracy.
You know what, if this is what you want to believe, no one is going to stop you, yet dont think for a moment that the rest of the world will follow along, you dont need google to find out this information, it is all public information and instead of having a court and a lawyer decide the fate of public health, the right institutions have been tasked with this.
So now we have massive institutions, independent of each other, with significant resources that work transparently to establish the safety of vaccines as well as continuously monitor the safety and efficacy of the vaccines.
You obviously know very little if these are your arguments or reasons for questioning the system.
You are in the no, not in the know.
Besides, it seems like you have faith in Congress as you used it in an argument for the so alleged nonexisting request that you claim congress requested, yet now you use Congress as an argument against vaccines.
If you are anything like Dooms, you will manage to squash together a bunch of arguments, and as one is being explained you will just jump to something else and continue this loop to the point of absurdity.
Provax,
“Well Congress asked for a study, and that’s where it ended!”
You seem like an arrogant and ignorant individual, so maybe enlighten us to what went down, Congress voted for a study, then what happened? The entity that was tasked with the study defied congress?
How did they get away with it and why is everyone quiet about it?
Provax,
“well nobody else died from the current so called outbreak of measles besides that child that the parents neglected, and Icant harm my child because it might keep someone else from getting the measles , ( which BTW is a total myth)”
Why are you calling this a ‘so called’ outbreak, are you implying that this is not an outbreak, how often does this occur in our community?
Being that you seem to dismiss the severity of the measles virus, I am sure that you have an exact number of how many children were taken to the hospital, how many of those were admitted for observation and how many to the ICU. Otherwise, I do not think that you would have the audacity to dismiss this in a public forum.
Oh.. its all a myth, I am sure that your chavrusa told you that he knows first hand that all of this is a myth, now go tell that to the parents of the children that bought into some radical hotline or publication written by ignoramuses and are now with their children in the hospital, I guess they are taking one for the greater cause.
Dooms,
“In the study there was NO drop in Autism rate after Japan dropped the MMR Vaccine.
But what 2cents does not tell you is that Japanese children were still Vaccinated for Measles, Mumps and Rubella in THREE SEPARATE VACCINES.”I will not call you a liar, I honestly believe that you are not intentionally misstating the truth.
There was an increase, (become or make greater in size, amount, intensity, or degree.) in autism.
In the same time, vaccines were not given at all, in this same period of time there was an increase in autism.
Below is the exact quote. (of course, you omitted it, or maybe it was by error and unintentional)
“RESULTS:
The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.”Regarding the government doing a study, what does this have to do with this right now, you seem to just mix in other arguments that are not associated with the discussion at hand, is that a distraction tactic?
Dooms,
“And the Government would NEVER DARE compare the autism rate of
Vaxxed Children vs 100% UnVaxxed Children.”Being that you have tremendous distrust in the government (unless they will conclude as you do, then you will say Congress even asked for a study..), why are you asking the government to initiate a study?
Rather one of the ‘real PhDs’ that you keep on writing about should do so, if they need funds let them make a go fund me account.
Dooms,
“Since you respect Dr. Zimmerman’s opinion, do you agree that Vaccines CAN cause Autism?”
So your going for the gotcha, why would it matter what my opinion is, more than what your opinion is or that of your sister?
You also have no clue if I agree or disagree with Dr Zimmerman, while you have announced that you are a special ed therapist (Probably not ABA certified as they strongly believe that autism is a genetic disorder using studies that include twins that clearly demonstrate that there is a mostly a genetic factor). I would prefer to rely on facts and data for my decisions especially those that are provided in a public forum.
meanwhile, you and provaxx can rely on your Chavrusa and your sister to establish your opinions.
Dooms,
“The researchers also fraudulently moved some autistic children who GOT the MMR into the group of children who did NOT get the MMR – but even with that Fraud the number of children with Autism was HIGHER in the MMR Group!”Are you saying that they were not able to pull off their fraud? or that they just lied about the real numbers or they just are so bad with numbers that despite trying to lie they mistakenly placed the numbers in the wrong columns?
So basically, you have a bunch of silly websites that are the core source of your ‘arguments’ and whatever they say you accept as truth, to the point that you can just respond with CAPS and label others as liars, it must be so because there is a website that you trust that makes the claim..
Dooms,
No one is lying here, Dr. Zimmerman released a written statement after the piece that was put together. I have already repeated it many times here, yet it seems that you like going for the ‘gotcha’ method instead of knowing the truth.
Yes, he did state that he believes that the vaccine played a role in Yates regression, yet he also stated that vaccines should be given and is not the cause for autism.
If you would stop right there, it would seem as if vaccines may cause autism, yet he clarified that this is not what he meant and the evidence clearly shows the opposite.
The vaccine is no greater cause than any infection to this very specific subgroup that Dr. Zimmerman is referring to, so to say that vaccines cause autism is dishonest and not true. I completely understand why you so badly argue to the contrary, but facts are facts and they don’t care about your emotions.
In fact, other individuals that have a similar level of authority actually believe that this subgroup is better off with the vaccine as the diseases that the vaccines prevent can cause greater harm to this subgroup.
Dr. Zimmerman does not completely disagree with this notion, only stated that there should be more studies and research done to this specific subgroup (with mitochondrial dysfunction) as there is a risk of causing them to regress.It is interesting to see how on one hand you and others have made claims that the vaccine-preventable diseases are good for us, yet use the cases where individuals that were injured from the very mild immune response that the attenuated virus caused, as a reason not to vaccinate.
You do realize that these very same experts that you use for your arguments agree that the actual full blown virus would for sure create harm to this subset of patients.
Actually using your ridiculous train of arguments, one would actually be able to argue that measles or mumps causes autism, as the virus can cause regression in this very same subgroup of children.
It will be some time before I have a chance to check this thread, yet I will predict that you Dooms will follow up with some argument that will be focused on labeling me as a liar and will do so in CAPS.
JAMA
“RESULTS:
Essentially no correlation was observed between the secular trend of early childhood MMR immunization rates in California and the secular trend in numbers of children with autism enrolled in California’s regional service center system. For the 1980-1994 birth cohorts, a marked, sustained increase in autism case numbers was noted, from 44 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1980 cohort to 208 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1994 cohort (a 373% relative increase), but changes in early childhood MMR immunization coverage over the same time period were much smaller and of shorter duration. Immunization coverage by the age of 24 months increased from 72% to 82%, a relative increase of only 14%, over the same time period.CONCLUSIONS:
These data do not suggest an association between MMR immunization among young children and an increase in autism occurrence.”Dooms,
If only you can respond with real substance, you probably think that responding with CAPS and excitement win some points here, maybe to some, but to those that care of facts and not about ridiculous conclusions it has no bearing.
You claim that I was lying, yet this is a study done that studied the rise in autism despite a significant decrease in the MMR vaccines. (quickly run to one of your radical websites that will show you some ridiculous arguments that will show you that this study is one big LIE!)
“No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study”
“Methods: This study examined cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven for children born from 1988 to 1996 in Kohoku Ward (population approximately 300,000), Yokohama, Japan. ASD cases included all cases of pervasive developmental disorders according to ICD‐10 guidelines.
Results: The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.
Conclusions: The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.”
““2cents, MORE children die from MMR Vaccine per year then die from Measles per year”
You would have to provide the data that supports this. Otheoiys nonexistent and just another attempt of yours to spread lies.
Dooms,
“Blue Cross Blue Shield pays pediatricians $400 per fully vaccinated child”
Assuming this is true, WHY would they want to do that?
This is the insurance company, they actually end up paying MORE if the child ends up sick, unless you believe that the pharmaceutical companies reimburse the insurance companies..
Athem, the company that owns Blue Cross, is a for-profit company. How would it be for profit for them if they actually paid money to providers when their children are fully vaccinated?
Dooms,
a. Not sure why you recycle your old garbage, the Danish study actually supports the null hypothesis that MMR does not cause autism.
b. In a simplistic way of explaining it, if there would have been a link between MMR and autism, the very many studies (combined studies cover millions of children) would have shown some shift or link and the null hypothesis would not have been able to be established.
c. the NAM (formerly IOM) has accepted the evidence as conclusive and released a comprehensive report that there actually is evidence that there is no link between MMR and autism. (the NAM is an independent body comprised of doctors and scientists)
d. Regardless of any changes in the rate of vaccinations, autism has increased.
e. Not sure why you still state that you are unsure what Dr. Zimmermans position is, he clearly released a written statement post the ‘news’ piece that you posted, in which he writes that despite the statements being released about him, he clearly supports vaccinations.
f. Dr Zimmeran clearly stated, he does not know of any data that supports a link between MMR and Autism.
h. Dr. Zimmermans opinion was and still is, that any infectious stress can cause children with mitochondrial dysfunction to regress.
i. Nor does Dr. Zimmeran believe that the case was based on his opinion,
j. Dr. Zimmerman clarified that while he does believe that children should be vaccinated, children with mitochondrial dysfunction should be studies better.
k. This is in line with what other experts have stated.
“As noted above, an important consideration for treatment of AMD is that “normal” inflammation can impair mitochondrial function. Although most infections cannot be avoided, certain measures can limit the risk of injury during infection or other causes of inflammation… We believe it is much better to immunize with DTaP than risk infection with highly inflammatory and potentially damaging community-acquired pertussis.”-Dr. Richard Kelley on Evaluation and Treatment of Patients with Autism and Mitochondrial Disease
While you try to twist all of this as if there is some massive fraud going on here, For those that actually care to review the details and do not go for your twisting, the facts are there to see.
Yet, as noted previously, you have made up your mind, you will pick and chose which ‘experts’ you believe in, and despite being shown how the people that just make statements are not qualified, nor is there any real data that shows what you claim.
Not sure why you keep on stating, that you have studies of “real PhDs”, as if all the studies that dictate medical recommendations are from made up PhDs.
Provax,
So is it your opinion that children with other illnesses should die from the measles?
Also, once we are at it, if the deaths from the measles viruses are for these weaker children do not count, as they are already sick at baseline, does this also mean that all the injuries that were reported do not matter, as these children mostly were immunocompromised at baseline (and would very likely have the same outcome if they contracted the measles virus)?
This has really reached Reductio ad absurdum.
While a lot of parents are emotional and buy into the claim that vaccines have caused their childs autism. It is not hard to understand why they would buy into this idea, nor are they to blame.
Yet it is important to note, there has been a drastic decrease in vaccinations, families with one sibling that has been diagnosed with ASD, are less likely to vaccinate their other younger children, most likely due to the belief that vaccines were the cause to their child’s autism.
However, the rate of ASD diagnoses have no dropped, nor are these families chances of their other children diagnosed with ASD less likely, despite withholding vaccines, in fact, these families have an increased chance of having their other children diagnosed with ASD, as like most diseases and disorders autism seems to be a genetic disease.
“I am a special education therapist who works with children with autism.
Many parents state that vaccines caused their child’s autism.
My nephew is autistic and my sister says that vaccines caused his autism.”a. While it is nice that you have chosen a field of helping children that can use therapy, being a special ed therapists does not lend you the position of authority on this matter.
b. You do realize by now that what many people state have no bearing if it were true, it would have been measurable if is not measurable than it does not exist. In fact, so much effort is being put in by the radical anti-vaccine and anti-medicine movement, that if there were any data that would link vaccines with autism it would have been all over the news.
c. While that may be what your sister claims, it may not be the actual truth. Therefore before a policy is decided there needs to be more than just what your sister claims.
At this point, I respect your passion, however, it is very clear that you are not interested in any data unless it supports your already made up decision.
It would have been better if you would have stated at the beginning of this discussion, that your sister’s claim has convinced you that it is vaccines that have caused her child’s autism. No data would satisfy you, as that is not what you are seeking. Anything that goes against vaccines you would immediately disregard, we would have clearly understood the reason for this, without having to initially think that it is data or research that has driven you to a conclusion.Dooms,
No need to learn a pshat in the events and no need to caps, Dr. ZImmeran is still around and can speak for himself.
He clearly states that his opinion has not changed, nothing ‘came out’, he clearly is an advocate for vaccines and does not believe that vaccine causes autism.
He does believe that children with mitochondrial dysfunction are at risk to regress when their immune system is under distress, such as infection or even a minor immune response such as associated with vaccines.