justThink

I agree with most of the posters above- don’t worry about the clothes (the bracelet does worry me a little), don’t worry about how many hours he learns, but worry about his attitude. He sounds like an angry kid trying to escape. I said this before and I believe it’s true; you keep on bringing up that wearing colors is rebellious for the chareidi community, therefore this shows where he’s at, and he’s rejecting everything. Your right- he is rejecting everything, FROM THE CHAREIDI COMMUNITY! Give the kid (I don’t know how- maybe something in America) a way to leave the chareidi world and see a modern way of life. Get him away from what he hates. Yes, it could be that by wearing colors he is showing he’s rejecting everything, but maybe the reason he’s rejecting everything is because he thinks “it’s so stupid that these people want to control your whole life, what colors you wear, what music you listen to, what kipa you wear, how big your peyos are, if i need my tzitzis in or out, decide how many hours you have to learn, etc… Why should I be part of such a lame, controlling world?” This is a very typical attitude from OTD teens, so get him into an open and accepting world! Don’t judge if he wears jeans! It will only turn him off more!

Gefen- you seem to have made two different points above. First of all, you complain that men are looking for a “trophy wife”. Second you complain that they are shallow. While I agree with you that it seems shallow to demand perfect looks (although I have no idea what type of sorry community you live in cuz none of my friends are like that), the first point is none of your business. I think everyone has the right to look for what you call a “trophy wife”, and there’s no reason to not try to look for the best wife you can get. You do have a point by saying that if to a man a “trophy wife” means good looks and not good middos he’s shallow. But I hate these complaints. Not all men are like that at all, and as popa said, we think that some things that women do are crazy also. But you won’t find 50 threads on yeshiva world started by men that “boo-hoo! ALL women are air-heads!!” or whatever. Grow up.

W.O.W- Being a teenage boy myself, I would like to offer my perspective. Although my case is very different to that of your son’s, and it sounds to me as if our personalities and situations are very different, I don’t think offering my position will hurt.

I didn’t read the whole thread but from what I hear I get the impression you live in a chareidi community in Israel, completely different than my situation in US.

I grew up as part of a Lakewood Yeshivish type community, and actually excelled in the system. My Rebbeim throughout high school always told me I would go to the best Yeshivos, and encouraged me to keep up the good work. I was going to learn and learn and learn (you get the idea) for many many more years, throughout yeshiva and kolel, etc. I never would think of doing anything else. I was learning well until I lost respect for my rebbeim. Now let me explain, I was not a victim of verbal or physical abuse, but I did witness what I felt were very poor and immature decisions from some rebbeim. Until that point I basically listened to everything my rebbeim said, because I was a good kid. But after I was disappointed (much more than a few times) by my rebbeim and also by “yeshivish culture” in general, i decided to start making my own decisions and not follow anyone blindly. I realized that I did not want to just learn, that I enjoyed and wanted to pursue secular studies, and that I did not enjoy the “pressure” from the community to be “in the box” and that I was different than everyone else. (I actually think I realized all this before, but I just felt these feelings were wrong because my rebbeim felt otherwise, and I just pushed myself to try to forget these feelings.) My opinions did not agree with those of the Yeshivish world, and I was a bit devastated that my dreams were shattered and very much changed. Until I realized a Yesod Gadol, NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME, AND NOT EVERYONE THINKS THE SAME!

To elaborate a bit more on this issue; we should all respect others feelings and opinions. (I am not accusing anyone here of not doing this.) Now while I understand why a religious person will not respect the opinions of an atheist, there is no reason for different sects of orthodox Judaism to belittle one another. Almost everyone has Mekoros and Rabbonim to back them up. (Even if not, if people are good people we should take them for who they are and appreciate they’re good.) For example, many of Rav Kook’s views were not agreed upon by most Chareidi Rabonim. But who has the right to say that if I agree with R’ Kook’s views then I am no good? R’ Shamshon Refoel Hirsh believed people should be educated, so who has the right to say that if I educate myself I am being mevatel zman, that I don’t appreciate Torah, that it’s all useless, etc.? And R’ Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik had very controversial views of his own, who has the right to say his followers aren’t bnei torah? While everyone has the right to believe what they believe, no one has the right to say the other person’s wrong.

When I finally arrived at this conclusion, I felt much better with myself and decided to stay on the derech. You must understand that when you grow up in a certain world, and all of a sudden you don’t fit in with that world, and to make matters worse they (including your friends) look down on you, it is very disheartening and you want to run away from the whole thing with a feeling of just leave me alone! When I understood that I had choices and that as long as I did what I felt was emes i would not be a bad person, I embraced the role of being frum happily.

I dont know if this is your son’s situation, but I do know people hate feeling like their bad, and if they do they want to run away from the whole situation, as an escape. When people feel like they’re fully respected with whatever they do they will act sensibly and make proper decisions.

One more thing: are there any role models that your son respects that he would speak to? I have role models ranging from not-jewish to totally frei to very modern to ultra yeshivish. Their common denominator is that they are all good people and have their head on straight. Observing and speaking to these people has really helped me clarify my views and goals of life.