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“He answers that a true ohev gives tochocho”
Exactly, but in a smart way that will get the person with whom you are talking to respect and agree with you, not hate you and think you are a wacko (which is what pickitting in front of their house would do).
I cant prove to you that you can’t harrass people into respecting your opinion. However anybody who has any expereince dealing with people will tell you that I am correct.
Good luck trying.
Myfreind, missme, mdd etc.,
It seems that many people on this board (also in the respecting people thread) think that they would be able to threaten people into caring about the things they care about. The problem with that is, it just wouldn’t work. the people who walk around with their knees uncovered obviosly dont care if people see them doing so as they WALK AROUND IN PUBLIC like that. Pickiting in front of their houses and harassing them would only make them hate you and anyone they perceive as thinking like you. It wouldn’t make them agree with you, or respect your opinion.
Yanky R,
“Offering excuses, and sugarcoating the truth in fact is what makes OTD people think its okay being OTD, and discourages their return to sanity….It very well may put the fear of G-d back in them.”
A very large percentage of people who were frum and go OTD actually do not beleive that frumkeit is correct (for either emotional or logical reasons).
This being the case threatning them that they will burn in a gehenom that they dont beleive exsists or telling them that not keeping the Torah is evil when they dont beleive it is, wont be effective for obvious reasons.
Most people will be willing to beleive in somthing even if it dosnt completly make sense to them if they see that it “works” (leads to a happy meaningful life ect.) and will be reluctant or even refuse to beleive somthing that does make sense to them if they think it “dosnt work” (that it leads to a horrible unfair existence etc.). Trying to threaten somone into beleiving somthing will not only make you unconvicing but also can seem to support the latter feeling.
Philosopher said,
“The tribal priest chants incessantly under the dark sky next to the altar, where a bound maiden will soon be sacrificed to appease the gods. And then in a low voice the priest tells the barbarian pagans of the secret that was passed down by his forfathers about the “sun god” that brought the people to Mexico.”
…and according to you why would they would beleive him? They should have said “wait a minute if this happened why didnt my father tell me about it”.
You seem to be assuming that the ancient Native Americans were less intelligent then Ancient people from Mespotamia. Do you have any reason or evidence to beleive this was the case?
“The Aztecs crumbled precisely because they had no real faith because their religion was not the truth. The Jews have survived and persevered with their faith even though they have gone through what the Aztecs did hundreds of times over.”
It would seem from looking at the history of what happnend that the Aztecs crumbled because they were KILLED OUT by the Spanish, other Indian tribes that helped the Spanish and diseases that were brought over on the boats from Europe. If you have any evidence that they abandoned their beleifs because simply because they stopped beleiving please post it. If anything it would seem from the fact that they spent so much time building temples and other religous actions that they took their religion quite seriously.
philosopher said,
“I cannot comment on the “miracle of fatima” story as I have no idea what that is a about”
It is also known as the “miracle of the sun” you can google it if you like. however I dont feel that this is the proper forum to write other relions beleifs in to much detail.
PHILOSOPHER said
“I don’t really know if the Aztecs lived like tribes”
They were a “tribe” they were a single culture.
Philospher said,
“For if they would really believe in what they were told, this culture would not be reduced to some archeoligical digs with strangers speculating about their culture.”
The reason their culture was reduced to nothing was because they were quite literaly wiped out by the invading spanish, with the only few survivors being those that converted to christianity. It has to do with the fact that the spanish had better weapons then them, it has nothing to do with the strength of their beleifs.
Philospher,
The “miracle of fatima” I was reffering to in the other thread that supposedly happened in front of thousands of people had nothing to do with a muslim women. It is actualy a christain story. The reason why I brought that one as an example was because it was supposed to have happened in the early 1900’s (not so long ago!). The Aztecs also beleived that their sun avoda zarah led their entire nation to Mexico and their ancestors saw and heard him do so
These are just two examples of miracles that supposedly happened in front fo thousands of people that obviosly didnt. There are many more
Philosopher said,
“Bring it on. Let’s here you’re refutations to the proofs I’ve written about. “
First of all, there are plenty of legends that are beleived by many thousands and even millions of people to have happened in front of thousands of people (some supposedly happened as recently as the early 1900s i.e. the story of the “miracle” of fatima)
The fact that many people hate Jews for no reason just proves that many people are bigots nothing more.
The fact that many thousands of people keep ancient traditions doesnt prove that those traditions are divine, and many other nations have ancient traditions that they follow as well.
Philospher said,
“Frum communities, while they have their share of social problems have major differences in percentage of crimes than the outside world
suicide
murder
immorality – which include out of marriage pregnencies, cheating on spouses, teenage immorality, same gender behavior
violent crimes”
From what I understand the religious Muslims and Amish ect. use the same argument about their respective communitys
Kasha said “he then says that stockings are required only because of tznius — because if it was actual ervah than transparent stockings would still be prohibited.”
“Tznius” meaning what? If it is not an Ervah, what is considered “not Tznius” in one time and place is not neccesarily to be considered so in any other.
Kasha said”However neither Rav Moshe nor the Mishna Berura state that there can not be hirhur concerning the lower leg.”
There can be Hirur on any part of a woman’s body, The areas that are an Ervah she has to cover. (She also has to make sure not cheapen herself even while covering all Ervah. However this is subjective and what is considered “cheapening” will vary greatly from Era to Era and place to place.)
Kasha said “mdd, which Chareidi authority allows no stockings?”
The Mishna Berura very clearly says a woman does not have to cover her leg from the knee down. I will post the exact Maareh Maakom later as I am at work and cant look it up at the moment.
jothar,
So the statement that was made that “one person learning does more then the entire IDF” isnt true then right? This was my point.
Jothar,
Allow me to clarify,
Here is an example of what i am asking
In 2008 there was a terrorist attack in the mercaz harav yeshiva in yerushalyim 8 bochrim were killed. The terorist was going strong untill an IDF SOLDIER shot the terrorist dead and stopped him. (there are many other examples like this one)
If learning protects bderech hateva the same amount as a soldier does why did a soldier stop the terrorist? the learning that went on in the yeshiva should have been enough.
Jothar and HaLeiVi,
With all due respect, I think you guys are missing the point.
If BDERECH HATEVA learning protects more then soldiers then how come those who WERE learning werent able to overcome (or survive) soldiers that attacked them during the Holocaust and other periods in Jewish history.
Entire yeshivos of people who most definitly were learning very well have been wiped out.
Why didnt their learning protect them?
Mosherose said,
“Except that the fact that learning protects is not a nes – its perfectly natural according to the world that Hashem created.”
“Obviously we werent learning enough.”
Even if your premise is correct,
if the learning of R Elchonon Wasserman and all of the hundreds of thousands of talmidie chachomim and tzadikim who have been killed over the years wasnt enough to protect them, we would have to be extremeley arrogant to depend that our or anybody alive today’s learning to protect us by itself.
GETZEL1 Said,
“Ha ha – Lets check this one out, ask any non Jew or orthodox Jew how many languages he can speak most can only speak one, Orthodox Jews can usually speak between 2-4.
How many Non orthodox can list you Jewish history from 2000 years ago? so you will say it”s just that they don”t care, but i”ll call that on their part arrogant.
Enter any Shul you got A few Talmidei Chachamim,[or call it Rabbi with a doctrine in Jewish law, History etc.] a few Doctors a few Lawyers a couple of accountants Computer programmers etc. etc..
NO I DON”T CALL THAT ARROGANT”
…. um Sir do you know what arrogant means? here are a couple definitions 1 overbearingly assuming; 2 insolently proud: as in “an arrogant public official.” How on earth does what you wrote above demonstrate the chareidim arnt arrogant?
Getzel also wrote,
“About the army, The main question is Why do we need an army if None of the leaders know what Israel needs to be ?”
Well one of the main reasons you need an army there is because wether you like it or not without one (bderech hatava) the arabs would pore into israel and kill as many jews as they could. If this is the fault of the zionists who lived 100 years ago or not is really beside the point.
I said,
“No they shouldnt find billions and billions of in between fossils because they have only catalouged a couple hundred million.”
what i meant to say was a couple hundred million fossils altogether
Joseph,
Another point worth noting is that there are plenty of transitional fossils and anyone can see quite a few of them in any good museum of natrual history, so keep that in mind before you say things like “why are there no transitional fossils?”
Joseph,
Also there are plenty of “transitional fossils” and anyone can see them in any good museum of natrual history. (just keep that in mind before you say things like “how come there are no transitional fossils”)
Joseph you should be carefull were you get the info for your posts from as your post is full of blatant misinformation
You said,
“Only 13 samples of Neanderthal Man have ever been found – ever! – every one of them incomplete,”
This statement is simply false, the remains of over 400 neanderthals have been found to date.
“But do the math: Even according to the most stubborn and irraitonal evolutionists, for every single fossil of normal humans and apes that they find, they should be finding billions upon billions of in-between fossils.”
No they shouldnt find billions and billions of in between fossils because they have only catalouged a couple hundred million.
“The steps between ape and human included tons of in-between creatures, and mutant cxreatures who were not fit for survival.”
Only somone with no understanding of how evolution works would say that.
There wouldnt be tons of mutants that are unfit for survival. Put simply the way evolution works is that creatures reproduce with mutation. Out evrey group of creatures some will have more offspring than others because they are more fit for survival( they may run faster,be a slightly less conspicious color ect.ect.) these will pass on their with genes (that contain thier mutations) to their offspring but with mutations over enough generations this will change the animal so much that it would be called a new “specie” there is no point were there would be tons of “unfit mutants”
Joseph,
The Rambam states that the moon is one fourtieth the size of earth we now know it is about one fourth the size of the earth.
Rambam states that there is no star bigger then the sun we now know that there are.
Rambam (yisodei hatorah 3:4) states that the sun is located in the sphere between mercury and mars wich would mean that there should be no planets between mercury and mars except for the sun. We now know that this is simply not true (we live on a planet between mercury and mars and we arn’t on the sun!).
“Where did all the extra years go? I am going to assume that everyone here believes in Sheshes Ymei Breishis, and it says very clearly that Adam was created on the sixth day of the universe”
If you say the sheishes yemei brieshes werent literall 24 hour days then this isnt a problem
Joseph,
The Chinuch (mitzva 545) clearly states that no species of animal ever goes extinct. Do you believe this to be the case?
I meant mitsva 545 in my last post
“On the contrary – it’s clear that on the fourth day Hashem said the sun should shine during the time-period that was called “day” and the stars/darkness should rule during the time-period called “night”. Since then, that hasn’t changed, and obvisouly, as we can see today, the sun and the stars have decided that the time period called day plus the time period called night, are 24 hours.”
How does the fact that Hashem said the sun should shine in the day and the stars at night prove that hashem created the sun and stars in literally 24 hours?
Joseph,
Lice are born from eggs, actual physical eggs not dirt. Dirt means dirt not eggs even small ones and even ones laid by lice.
According to you why is it ok to say that when Chazal say “dirt” it sometimes actually means “lice eggs”, but not ok to say that when Chazal say “days” they mean periods of time?
Joseph,
Using squeak’s reasoning you might as well say that we have no idea what Chazal meant when they said “days” or that when they said “days” they meant something different then then people do when they use the word “days” (the same way you are assuming that when Chazal said dirt they meant very small eggs, or they are talking about something else completley).
I know it’s a small matter but please capitalize Chazal. Thank you.
If it will make the kallah feel special and the choson agrees and is really O.K. with doing this, whats the problem? As long as you arnt trying to force it on people who arnt intrested who cares- to each their own.
MEPAL,
Sorry- i mean it, im outta here now dont worry!!
In response to mod 80’s post in the returning members thread,
The list of name you brought up consists of only five hundred scientisits worldwide and not any leading ones (I’m sure you can find 500 scientists who beleive aleins have visited the earth among other strange things).
In response to this there was a project put together by the NCSE called “project steve” in which only scietists named steve were allowed to perticipate they quickly gatherd more then double the amount of scientists including (Stephen Hawking among other leading scientists)NAMED STEVE ONLY!!! to sign the following statement
“Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to “intelligent design,” to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation’s public schools.”
This is besides the point that when scientists say they disagree with “darwinian evolution” it very rarley means that they dont beleive in evolution or common ancestry or that they beleive thet there isnt overwhelming evidence in evolution or common ancestry ,rather it usally means that they disagree with Darwin’s ideas on how it may have actually happend
To claim that you, a human can logicly deduce the reasons why a being capable of making a universe like ours would do so from observing your little world which is smaller then you can imagine when compared to the size of the universe. (infinitly smaller then the period at the end of this sentence is when compared to the entire solar system just to give you a concept of what we are talking about.) Seems laughable to say the very least.
Even if evolution had been completley disproven (wich it most defenitly has not been! on the contrary just about evrey expert in the natrual sciences and evrey leading authority in the natrual sciences say it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt) and the watchmaker argument was a valid argument it still wouldnt mean anything.
The idea that we, one small group of one species on one planet out of probably hundreds of billions of planets, cirling one star out of BILLIONS of stars, in one galaxy out of BILLIONS of galaxies, in a universe so massive that even if we were to travel at the speed of light for hundreds of millions of years we would not even cross a fraction of it, are the reason this universe is here seems to be an extreme leap of faith.
AREIVIM said,
“sicko
I’m sure you’d do a much better job then our gedolim”
I never claimed i would. Then again I dont claim that evreything i say is daas torah and expect people to listen to evreything I say without question.
“Does anyone find the recent Hafganos in Yerushalayim outrages and a Chillul Hashem?”
I would think most people do. I for sure do.
“Does anyone think this is totally normal – trowing rocks at the cops, damaging police cruisers, burning dumpsters, smashing traffic lights?”
Most people dont think such behavior is normal.
“Does anyone think that the Gedolim are sending these people out to protest in this fashion?”
I cant imagine that gedolim approve of such actions.
“And if you think that they are not supportive of this type of Hafganah, then why don’t they appear in PERSON at one of these violent Hafganos and physically yell and scream at the protesters to stop it?”
Probably because they are scared to or just cant be botherd.
600 KILO BEAR,
I dont know how it is in whatever part of Europe you are in, but I have seen pictures of president bush’s wife, sarah palin and michelle obama wearing opend toed shoes. I really dont think they were “advertising themselves in public, if not for money in the form of at least a paid for date, then just for attention from guys.” (although i cant really prove that they werent, I do think it is still safe to say that this wasnt their intention).
As far as wearing sandals or opend toed shoes in a casual setting you yourself admit that it is not considerd grub and prust even in whatever part of the world you are in.
Feivel said,
“genetic mutations, which are the only mechanism capable of adding something truly “new” to the gene pool are almost ALWAYS injurious”
This statement is simply just false.
For example the average human being typicly has about 50-100 mutations of which 3 actually change a protein (they are not what are known as “silent” mutations which dont change any proteins and have no real effect on their organisim whatsoever),if the vast majority of mutations were injurios as you claim, humans (and all other life for that matter) would have been extinct long ago.
Most mutations that actually change a protein are neither harmfull or beneficial in of themselves, rather are simply diffrent.
If the vast majority of mutations will prove to be harmfull or not would depend on the enviroment were the organisim which has any particular mutation finds itself.
(For example a mutation that causes an animal to have darker skin will prove beneficial to the animal if it finds itself in an enviroment with a dark surface as it would make it harder to spot but harmfull if it finds itself on a light one were it will make it easier to spot.)
Feivel you said,
“and by the way very very few of these changes are caused by “genetic mutations”, the vast majority are preexisting genetic variations and a few by errors during meiosis such as crossing-over and translocation errors.”
When evolutionists use the word “Mutation” it includes errors during meosis and gene replication as well.
Feivel,
If you made a microsoft program that copied itself with mutations, and the mutations that more closly resembled an aviation program (by no matter how small an amount) were more likley to copy themselves that those that didnt then yes, given enough time you would eventualy be producing aviation programs.
“if apes evolved into humans, why did some apes remain apes?”
No one says humans evovled from apes. Rather they say that apes and humans share a common ancestor.
“and why are humans not continuing to evolve?”
Who said they arn’t?
Feivel,
Lets forget about all the proofs there are that evolution happend for a minute.
Microevolution (small physical changes in animals shapes and colors caused by genentic mutations) has been observed in nature many times over.
Do you have any logical reason for beleiving that these small gentic mutations would stop adding up at the point were the animal would be so changed in appearance (and geneticly for that matter) that we would calassify the animal as another “specie”?
(Please note that the changes i am reffering to are genetic in nature and cannot be compared to say, working out your muscles.)
Feivel,
You said “it is scientifically absurd and persists only because the upper levels of liberal academia need it to, and because the general masses have not learned to think critically.
I Am to busy to waste my time arguing evolution with you. However i do have one question i would like you to answer: Have you ever studied the theory of evolution in depth?
***EDIITED*** comment deleted. please refrain from making disaraging comments. YW Moderator-72
Please answer honestly.
anonymiss,
You are right, but if the point of wearing a hat is to look dignified you arnt really acommplishing that goal by wearing a black hat nowadays.
Areivim,
I am talking about what rich, succesfull and dignified people (such as Bill Gates, Michael Bloomberg, Presidents Bush and Obama ect. ect.) can be seen wearing nowadays and it is not only white shirts and black pants.
Areivim, you said
“First class by today’s standards is a white shirt & dark suit (men). Just walk the streets of Manhattan. Anyone that’s a who’s who or is at least trying to look the part will be dressed in this formal attire. Now the hat is the only part left to argue about.”
No it isnt, you will see people wearing dark suits and dress shirts of many assorted colors.
There is also no real argument that a black hat is NOT considerd normal, formal or proffesional attire nowadays, its just considerd wierd.
Aussieboy, you said
“The reason woman have tznius is so they dont make it harder for the men to fight the urge. (No it was not put there because the girl is a bas yisroel who is like a princess and a princess is dignified.)”
Why do you say this is the reason for tznius?
“Life is like riding a bicycle, in order to keep your balance you must keep moving” – Albert Einstein
The question is not if its possible that hashem told chazal all about modern day science (its technicly possible for Hashem to do ANYHING).
The question is if there is any reason to beleive that he did tell them all about modern day science,the fact that hashem could have done somthing is not a reason to beleive that he actualy did it.