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Smartcookie,
You said: “000646- my teachers always told us it doesn’t “pas” to eat out. That doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to. We learn many things in school. Then we choose to follow what we want.(Except for outright Halacha obviously).”
Ok so would you be shocked if a Chasidishe family didn’t let their daughter eat out because it doesn’t “Pas”? I don’t think so.
You Said: “Curfew? Gimme a break. Never heard of that. And I’m VERY Chassidish.”
I am talking about rules made in what I understand is the main Satmar girl’s high school. Is my information false?
You said “Men are not girls- she specifically said about the girls. The men definitely need to shape up their English, yes.”
My limited experience interacting with very chasidishe people would tell me that you are incorrect.
Mytake,
Before I reply point by point I want to stress I am NOT saying that a secular life is better then a Chasidishe one. I am just saying that this women is not lying and that the fact that she found this lifestyle not good does not mean it is not a GREAT lifestyle for some.
I went to a really Yeshivish (although not Chasidishe)High-School. I was told it dosn’t “Pas” for a Ben Torah to eat out in a restaurant and that we should not do so. I do not find it hard to believe that a strict Satmar Family would not let it’s women eat out.
Again in my experience in the Yeshivishe community the more Yeshivishe people are less makpid on driving laws, underage drinking etc. then more modern or not frum people. So I do not find it hard to believe her here either.
[non-Hasidic]
I remember being told by my High- school teachers that “Just because a Goy is wearing a uniform does not make him any less of a lowlife then a bum on a street corner and given the chance they would do what the Nazis did”
My understanding from speaking to some friends who are familiar with Satmar is that Beis Ruchel Dsatmar forbids it’s high-school girls from being on the street after certain hours(with some exceptions when attending a friends wedding etc.).
Allot of the Chasidieshe men I meet speak english on about a 4th grade level so this is not a leap.
Mytake,
Before I reply point by point I want to stress I am NOT saying that a secular life is better then a Chasidishe one. I am just saying that this women is not lying and that the fact that she found this lifestyle not good does not mean it is not a GREAT lifestyle for some.
I went to a really Yeshivish (although not Chasidishe)High-School. I was told it dosn’t “Pas” for a Ben Torah to eat out in a restaurant and that we should not do so. I do not find it hard to believe that a strict Satmar Family would not let it’s women eat out.
Again in my experience in the Yeshivishe community the more Yeshivishe people are less makpid on driving laws, underage drinking etc. then more modern or not frum people. So I do not find it hard to believe her here either.
[non-Hasidic]
I remember being told by my High- school teachers that “Just because a Goy is wearing a uniform does not make him any less of a lowlife then a bum on a street corner and given the chance they would do what the Nazis did”
My understanding from speaking to some friends who are familiar with Satmar is that Beis Ruchel Dsatmar forbids it’s high-school girls from being on the street after certain hours(with some exceptions when attending a friends wedding etc.).
Allot of the Chasidieshe men I meet speak english on about a 4th grade level so this is not a leap.
She was clearly talking about her Satmar Chasidishe Education and Marriage and that is how she presented it.
I do not think she said anything not true about Taharas Hamishpacha either.
Why are people so offended by the idea that someone could find something they find beautiful (like Tharas Hamishpacha and other aspects of frum living) not so beautiful or even downright repulsive?
You expect the parents of Baalei Tshuva or even just non religious people to respect your way of living and allow you to share your opinions of their lifestyle. So let this Girl express hers, it really shouldn’t bother anyone what she says!
I just watched her interview on The View. I do not think she said anything factually incorrect about the Chasidishe community.
She did not seem bitter and I am really wondering what she said about the community that is untrue. As far as I saw from her interviews (New York Post, Jewish Week, Daily Mail Etc. and The View) everything she said is factually correct
Zahavasdad,
I mean things she said about her community as far as rules and, what women are expected to do, how women are expected to dress etc.
(I do not know enough about the alleged cover up you are referencing or how she portrays it to comment)
Mytake, Woman outside brooklyn Etc.,
Would one of you guys PLEASE point out some of the things she said about the community that they feel are factually inaccurate?
Mytake,
You said “Either you’ve been reading different interviews than I did, or you have ridiculous misconceptions about the chassidishe community.”
Would you mind telling me something she said that is factually inaccurate about the Chasidishe community?
From what I saw of her interviews and writings nothing she said is untrue. Your average American (or any westerner) would agree with most of what she says (even “conservative” Americans).
HOWEVER that does not mean that there aren’t people that are happy living the lifestyle she found and most Americans would find so oppressive. For some it is the best way to live for others it isn’t.
The book is a memoir, so of course it will be colored by her opinions and outlook of its author. That is what a memoir does! It isn’t supposed to be a scientific study of Satmar or any other community.
I think that the reason why people are so defensive is because they themselves are too insecure to just admit that what she says is true but NEVERTHELESS they feel that the good in the community outweighs the bad. As a general rule it doesn’t offend people who are secure in their beliefs when someone disagrees with them.
This idea that Secular America is a place were women are respected and everyone just “lives and lets live” is silly
The point here is that whether you want to admit it or not (and this is were, I think the M.0. have the most difficulty)our way of thinking and our Value and Morality system is not a western one.
In fact it is in many way opposed to western values and Morality.
This however does not make our Value system wrong or something to be ashamed of.
American’s in general tries to mix our way of thinking with a western way of thinking and it does not work, and it rubs off on us.
For example ‘conservative” Americans send their children to Co-Ed high schools and colleges, they and their Children go to beaches were there are girls wearing as little as possible.
Then to make themselves feel good they campaign against s** education and abortion! These are things that are necessary if you are going to have a culture like the one America prides itself in!
We are not a western people and our Morals and Values are not the same as those who are. This is a fact.
We do not treat are woman the same way Americans do. There is nothing wrong with that.
Does a Secular Culture that promotes in every way that the only way for a women to get ahead or be considered “cool” is to look like a movie star who only looks the way she does because she invests millions in her appearance respect women?
Does a culture that allows for male and female high school students to mix and then doesn’t teach them how to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancies and STDs respect women?
Does a culture that shuns Teenagers who have fell victim to what it promotes because it makes them feel good and “conservative” respect women?
Zahavasdad,
You Said: “If you walk into harlem wearing a white sheet shouting FROM THE STREET general racial slurs (Not aimed at a particular individual) and you are beat up, the perps are legally responsible for any damage they incur.”
I am not a lawyer so I do not know the laws in theses cases.
In any case there is Law and then there is common sense.
Even the same judge who would sentence a black guy to prison for beating up someone who walked into Harlem wearing a white sheet shouting FROM THE STREET general racial slurs (Not aimed at a particular individual)would admit that the idiot who got beaten up had it coming to him and for sure has nothing to be all self righteous about.
The point is simple:
Don’t bother people if you do not want to fight. If you bother people quit whining when they fight with you.
If they are “right” or “wrong” is not the point.
Z and Gavra,
Right and you also have the right to walk into a black neighborhood wearing a klu klux klan outfit and scream anti black statements (provided that you do not call for violence) but if you get a beating don’t get all self rightous or come crying to anyone
Feif,
No body cares what you do on buses in your own neighborhoods or were your wife walks.
The people of New Square (and Meah Shearim etc.) go to great lengths to seperate themselves from the society at large. They put signs outside their neghborhoods and make sure evreyone knows what their standards are. If you choose to go into their neighborhoods and do things they specicfly do not want happening there you will get harrassed. There is nothing to get all self rightous about,it is not something specific to religious groups either.
If a neturei Kartanick walked into were you Daven wearing a Palistinian flag would he get harassed? Probably.
If you walk around in the Arab neghborhoods in the west bank wearing an isreali flag will you get harrassed? Probably.
There is nothing to get all self rightous about
Wolf,
If your or if you are not religous some other “moderate” Orthodox jew’s wife told them that she does not want to go to the mikvah are you saying you would just say “Ok no problem” or would you presure her (possibly even with the threat of divorce) to go?
“Force” does not neccesarilly mean physically
Feif,
You cannot say that Chasidishe women are oppressed. Many of them enjoy their lives with the restrictions that are placed on them. Lifestyles are “package deals” there are downsides and upsides to some the upsides are worth the downsides; and to some they are not. This idea that the Western American way of thinking automaticly “protects” and “honors” woman or that is is ideal for evreyone is simply not true.
There are upsides to living a Chasidishe style life that a secular life does not have, and there are also upsides to living a secular life that a chasidishe life does not have.
What is considered important to one culture’s people may be unimportant to anothers.
I saw a cartoon once with and Arab woman dressed in a hijab and an american woman dressed in a bathing suit and sunglasses looking at one another, the American woman was looking at the Arab woman and thinking “Evreything covered except her eyes what a disgusting male dominated culture” and the Arab woman was thinking “Nothing covered but her eyes what a disgusting male dominanted culture”
You cannot impose your values on others, Chasidish, Modern, or even Lhavdil Muslims.
This idea that western values are some how better by default is arrogant untrue garbage that most people in our community get from listening to people like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and company.
Sarid’s words are sickening especially coming from a Jew.
However If you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen.
If you start fights and act like crazy people the people you are fighting will do the same.
If you publicly call certain groups of Jews Nazis (which anyone who has ever been to any recent Hafgana in Meah shearim know happens) they will in turn say horrible outrageous things about you.
Don’t act crazy to other people and they won’t act crazy to you, OR
do act crazy just do not pretend you are shocked when the side you are fighting does the same
It’s really that simple
Kasha,
I beleive the point here is very simple.
The qoute from the C”I was made in a story book (a very accurate one that we could learn alot from perhaps, but still a story book)
Evrey word the C”I said was not halacha nor was it meant to be taken as such. Qouting it here as if he meant it literally l”halcha is irosponsible and wrong.
Ps.
For all of you who feel that you can “call to the carpet” rabbonim who disagree with your preconcieved ideas of what is right or wrong (i.e length of sleeves etc.) are no better then those “anti torah bloggers” who call chareidei Gedolim to the carpet for the same reason.
“Gross public indecency, says the Chazon Ish, is a crime fitting for execution. That means even wearing slacks outside, let alone the far worse crime of leaving ones legs uncovered at times in public, with a short skirt.”
Does it say anwere what the C”I based this opinion on? Or even that it was meant literally? (unlike those chazals about forgetteing a possuk etc. which arn’t literal)
If somone cannot avoid having bad hirhurim about woman they happen to see for a second while crossing the street ect, THEY need to work on themselves.
You CAN not look if you dont want to.
Seeing somthing for a second or by accident shouldnt bring you to bad hihurim if you are normal, and dont want to have bad hirhurim.
Why some people like to portray themselves as crazed helpless people who are unable to control themselves is really beyond me.
EDITED
Squeak,
Agreed!
baruch1 said,
“Islam is by its nature (according to the ‘pashut’ reading of the Quran) a controlling and an intolerant religion! There I said it! Forget about contemporary Talibans and Wahabis, since its very creation, Islam has subscribed to the belief that Christians and Jews are Dhimmis thus making them subserviant to Muslims under Shariyah law. “
Thats not a reason to make it illegal to build a mosque. Christianity beleives that Jews are evil and deserve to die for rejecting their mamzer as well. Churches arn’t illegal. If someone had proof that the mosque was going to be used to actively support murder they should take their proofs to court
Its annoying to me to see so many frum people parroting things catholics like Sean Hannity etc. say all day. Christains are no great friends of ours either and probably hate us just as much as the muslims, whatever a christain may say in public or on the radio they beleive that we killed their “god” and are going to burn forever for rejecting him. Their “saints” are by and large people who would have had no problem tourtering Jewish children to death. Just because in the past couple of hundred years it has become unfashionable to say these things in public in western society dosnt change what their religion is and has been for the past couple of thousand years.
Our history with muslims is a by and large a whole lot better. Muslims let Jews and christains live in their lands (with certain restrictions but generaly not as bad as those in christain countrys) while many catholic countrys were expelling us and inciting progroms.
As long as the mosque is not funded by terorist organsations or actively supporting terrorists they have a right to beleive and practice what they want were they want. Even if they beleive and preach that American culture is rotten and disgusting (somthing they may be right about)and that in an ideal world evreyone would be Muslim. Even if they preach things that evreyone else finds offensive. They still have that right. In a democrocy you have the right say, beleive, and do what you want no matter how offensive it is. That’s what comes along with living in America.
The people who beleive that the mosque is funded by terorists should take their proofs of this to court, if it is found to be true it will not be built.
“If the beaches are deserted (no lifeguards)then they are very unsafe to swim in them. Just from the standpoint alone of v’nishmartem meod es nafshoseichem, it would be assur to swim there.”
Its as unsafe as you let it be. If you respect were you are, and use your brains it isn’t dangerous.
There were thing that were considered moral and O.K. then that wouldn’t be considered so now. As well as (possibly more) things that are considered moral and o.k now, that would have been considered immoral and wrong then.
Trying to judge what was and should have been considered moral in the Middle East 4000 years ago while living in the western world in the 21st century is kind of silly.
“So… perhaps “munchhausen (non-existant illness) Mom” was right after all? Perhaps the life and family of this lovely woman (I know her personally) were ruined, probably forever, thanks to a horrific mistake?”
Perhaps.
Like evreything else look into what both sides say and what evidence they each present. (Not what each sides opponents say the other side’s evidence is) without coloring it with your personel biases (such as I know her and she is sooooo nice) and then decide. You may be suprised what you come up with.
Even with what you said being the case, how could they possibly know why Hashem does things?
Do you have any mekor that says that “Ruach Hakodesh” means that Hashem speaks to them and tells them why he does things?
Since when did Hashem start telling Gedolim why he does things? Gedolim can tell us what they reccomend we work on. But since when did Hashem start talking to them, and telling them the reasons things happen?
It is called Ruach Hakodesh.
During WW2 boats full of Jewish refugees were turned back to Europe. Even not overtly anti semetic goverments (such as the U.S.A. which for some reason so many of us have this great love for) either didnt allow, or only allowed a very limited amount of Jewish people to escape to their control.
Thanks to there being a state of Israel if C”V such an event ever happened again (and unfortunatly if history is any indication its not at all an impossibility) there would now be a country for Jews to flee too that would guarantee us shelter, as well as defend us to the best of its ability.
Just a thought…. I dont think it really proves anything. Do with it what you want.
Guys,
There is no one way that it absoloutly correct and one way that is absoloutly wrong in these inyanim. What is abusive or ineffective in one time or culture or community may not be so in another. It is like this in other areas as well, such as dating how to dress and marriage (if you describe how some chasidishe or marriages work to a goy many would consider it abusive i.e. what!? Your husband has a right to tell you that you cant learn to drive?! and yeshivish marriages- What!? your husband has a right to tell what you shouldnt wear?! and even most regular not so yeshivish marriages-What?! your husband tells you cant uncover your hair!?)
What works for chinuch in place is not necesseraly correct in another
It is pretty clear that there are valid reasons for holding both that a nice human hair sheitel is assur as well as that it is muttar.
However personally I always felt that Jewish people should be proud to look distinctly “Jewish” (and dressing like a distinguished 18th century German is not what I mean)even if they arn’t religious at all. I mean you see Indian woman dressing distinctly eastern all over New York and our culture and religion is at least as rich as theirs so why should we be ashamed? even if you arn’t religious at all you should be proud to be a Jew and dress the part.
Wearing a nice scarf that looks distincly “Jewish” is probably more like that then trying to blend in wearing an as natrual looking as possible headcovering (or wearing none at all.)….. But then again I think most Chareidim are against the whole Jewish Pride thing… so whatever.
I dont know about Sheidim, but below is what the Rambam says about Kishuf (Madda Hilchos A”Z 11:16)
?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????. ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???. ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??????. ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???’.
?? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????. ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????. ????? ?? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?’ ?????
So it is apparent that he didnt beleive that there was ever such a thing as Kishuf.
Philosophersaid,
“That was a mistake on my part. I believe the Torah is divine even if I would not see any logical proofs of that.”
Exactly! You have already made up your mind about what you want to beleive and nothing can change that. Saying that and trying to
convince people that your beleif will lead them to a happier life may be succesfull.
Telling them that they should beleive in the Torah because it is the logical thing to do, and people who dont think it is logical only think so because they have already made up THEIR minds not to beleive while you yourself admit that you beleive JUST BECAUSE YOU DO is simply wrong and will come across as arrogant hypocritical and wrong to many people.
poppa bar abba
Your funny!
PHILOSOPHER,
No offense taken, I hope I didnt come across as condescending and if I did I apologize.
Philosopher said,
“The logical proofs I believe in are my own logic after doing research, thinking and analyzing. Just like I did in The Torah is Emes thread.
I certainly won’t take “facts” as such from scientists who are athiests and cannot answer the simple, basic question of how did life begin. They ignore that question and instead build whole buildings on no foundations with their “scientific proofs”.”
We are not talking here about the origin of life or even if there is a G-D. We are discussing if the divinity of the Torah is provable through logic. All I am saying is that all the proofs you brought arn’t good, and that if you would simply read what the people who agree with my position write, (and not what their opponents say they say) you would see that what I am saying is correct. For some reason however it would seem from your answer that you would be unwilling to do this.
I would go into more detail, but this is not the forum for it for the reason I mentioned in my earlier post among others.
Have a good Shabbos.
Philospher said,
“The truth is whatever true argument I will bring forth will not please you because you are set in your thinking so what’s the use of going back and forth…I have the answers so you need not post yours.”
So then who is set in their way of thinking and is not open to changing it?
I originaly thought the way you do but changed my mind after actually seeing both sides of the arguments.
Have you actualy looked into and researched these “proofs”? (BTW by “looked into” I dont mean read a book by someone who agrees with your preconceived view of things and how they portray their opponent’s arguments.)Or have you simply decided they are good proofs because you read a book by somone who thinks so, or havnt thought of any way to disprove them yourself?
Philospher,
Im pretty sure my response here to your post isnt gonna be let through….but at least i tried.
It may go up in edited form.
OOMIS,
Nope! I have no idea who you are and no idea what your E-mail address is
This may be a politicly incorrect thing to say and I’m not sure that the mods will let this up, but many people who are OTD are just as sure that being frum is wrong as you are that it is correct. The fact of the matter is there are no logical proofs that being frum is correct and the emotional benefits may not be apparent to somone who has not experienced them. Somone may also be of the opinion that they are not enough of a reason to be frum.
You have to respect and accept that not evreyone is going to agree with your opinion of unprovable things and that thinking less of them and pitying them for it is going to come across as arrogant and wrong.
PS. I do not want to debate so called “proofs” on YWN anymore then I have. Not because I can’t but because it is frustrating when your replys dont get posted or the threads get closed when you answer. If you want just research it and actualy read both sides of the arguments. In some cases you can simply google a proof i.e. kuzari proof followed by the word “refutation of”.
This may be a politicly incorrect thing to say and I’m not sure that the mods will let this up, but many people who are OTD are just as sure that being frum is wrong as you are that it is correct. The fact of the matter is there are no logical proofs that being frum is correct and the emotional benefits may not be apparent to somone who has not experienced them. Somone may also be of the opinion that they are not enough of a reason to be frum.
You have to respect and accept that not evreyone is going to agree with your opinion of unprovable things and that thinking less of them and pitying them for it is going to come across as arrogant and wrong.
PS. I do not want to debate so called “proofs” on YWN anymore then I have. Not because I can’t but because it is frustrating when your replys dont get posted or the threads get closed when you answer. If you want just research it and actualy read both sides of the arguments. In some cases you can simply google a proof i.e. kuzari proof followed by the word “refutation of”.
“Picketing on public property is a constitutional right in a democracy”
many countys have ordinances against pickiting in front of private homes, its not as clear cut as you might think.
“I think most people will not want kol korehs and picketing in front of their houses because they dress pritzusdik. I think that kind of humiliation will motivate many people to shape up.”
I think it would motivate them to get a restraining order as well as make a Chilul Hashem.
“I think (after trying private tochocho) public humiliation on this issue has a chance it may be effective on some if not many people.”
Just out of curiosity what would you tell people? That this woman walks around in front of them not dressed tznius? If she was really not tznius one would think they would have already noticed.
“I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on its potential effectiveness. “
I guess so! Good luck with that.
“Apparently the poskim I cited (I don’t know if there are any opposing view), hold that sometimes you do know for sure.”
By a Get and certain kinds of cases you can know enough to assume it would work (most people do not want evreyone knowing that they refused to give their wife a Get as well as why their wife is demanding one etc.).
“There are other circumstances even today (i.e. with the get issue) where public humiliation is utilized. Is that always ineffective iyo?”
By a Get it can be effective because most people would not want evreyone knowing that they refused to give their wife a get, by tznius they obviosly dont care if evreyone knows what they are doing as they are doing it in public. Like I said before, it takes common sense.
How can you ever “know” for certain? You cant. You have to use common sense, here common sense would tell its not going to work.
Not if you know that embarassing them will be ineffective.