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I’m 22. Now you go!
Jfem,
WOW!! someone mixed me up with JOSEPH!
nottalmr
my point was just that the rabbonim who hold it is ossur only hold this because of there OPINION that it is to flashy.
if another person and there rov dont have this opinion (that it is to flashy) there is no reason for them to listen to it at all as it IS JUST AN OPINION not a fact(unless they are in a town were MOST people are of that opinion.)
… as driving to shul on shabbos invovles transgressing a number melachos doraisa that are mentioned bfeirish
were as wearing a slit below the knee is not uncovering any erva and is only held to be ossur by some because THEY HOLD it is to flashy,
it is an opinion not a fact,
you obviosly hold by your rov’s opinion wich is fine, but if another rov has a diffrent opinion then your rov there is nothing wrong with somone holding like that rov.
Joseph,
your comparison between wearing a slit and be being mechalal shabbos by driving is ridiculous.
or 1000 yrs ago ect.
Hakatan,
It is not realistic or reasonable to say that 9 year olds 100 yrs ago were as mature as 19 year olds are today. it just dosnt make any sense.
Chuck,
are you agreeing with joseph? if you are can you answer the question i asked him?
Chacham2,
my point just was i dont see why it would be any more degrading to say man came from an ape like ancestor then to say man came from dirt
(i also dont think it contradicts the torah but we just discussed this in another thread and i think evreyone is tired of it going in circles already)
Joseph,
i dont beleive i am making an “incorrect torah deduction” are you saying it was never okay in jewish society for a father to marry off his 9 year old daugther? i think it is pretty clear that it was considerd okay.
please answer the question that i asked in my last post
thank you.
halavai,
you said “The theory than man “evolved” from bacteria and monkeys is fallacious and nothing more than an attempt to make it seem as though people are nothing more than sophisticated apes”.
this is the logical equivlent of saying that the torah’s account is just an attempt to make man look like sophistacated pieces of dirt c”v.
Joseph,
If you agree that the above example is abuse then you are basicly agreeing that your statement is simply not true.
so do you think the example i gave is abuse or not?
We just discussed this in the thread entitled “the hoax of manmade global warming”
Joseph,
Do you not call a father marrying off his nine year old daughter abuse?
Jfem,
I never said in any thred that attributing CERTAIN ASPECTS of halacha to the times borders on heresy.
Of course a woman can NEVER be hit or starved for not obeying her husband certain aspects of halacha change with time.
The rambam lived in a time and place were wife beating was common and even condoned
The halacha also is that a father can marry off his 9 year old daughter i think that anyone in there right mind would agree that any father (and the person who marrys her) who does such a thing nowadays should be locked up
Because 646 is the gematriah of my name!
not pashut,
your statement is the logical equivelent of a cristian asking a Jew do you really beleive that saint peter and pope Jhon paul missed the point in life but you hit upon the answer.
Fief Un,
The world being that old does not necesseraly contradict the torah you can get plenty of books on the subject by r scroeder, r aryeh kaplan and many others.
Bogen,
the fact there have been hoaxes and wrong proofs in no way disproves the proofs that we do have (it is worth noting that the hoaxes you mentioned were uncoverd by the same scientists who’s science you refuse to trust.)
The theory of evolution IS falsifiable as i said before one mammal skull found in rocks that formed before advanced animals should have evolved would disprove evolution and this has not happend since fossils started being discoverd.
Feif Un,
as evolution does not necesseraly contradict the torah or there being a creator, why would you assume that hashem fooled gmab anymore the you would assume he fools us regarding the world being round? Isnt more logical to just say it happend?
feivel,
i am also sorry for making assumptions about how you were brought up this was a bit arrogant and wasnt nice of me.
Feivel,
my point was that we are all entitled to beleive in whatever derech we want however to go about bashing what evreybody else beleives as “anti torah” or “sewage” or “open rebellion against hashem” ect. just because there derech dosnt appeal to us is wrong.
i would never say this about your mehalach of life although it may be very diffrent then the way i would want for myself or my wife & kids.
as the same way you feel that you know you are right they feel just as sure that they are right.
Joseph,
i will even re post some of the ideas i mentioned in the other thread here,
First of all evolution happens. We can see it. one example off the top of my head is domesticated dogs there is no such thing in the wild of most of the species of dogs that are domestic breeds simply because these breeds were “created” in captivity by slecting certain traits and breeding for them it only makes sense that in the wild certain traits would give a creature a better chance at survival and would cause them to develop more and more (kinda like the elephent example i gave in the earlier post except substitute the elephant for say a flying squirrel and the size of the trunk and body to the size of the “wings” (wich are in reality flaps of skin) and distance it can fly.) the argument that this is just “micro” evolution simply misses the point as enough “micro” changes will end up being a “macro” change
second of all from the dna evidence:
most of the dna strand in all animals is mostly the same this is extremly suggestive of commen ancestry
third of all the fossil evidence
we see layers of fossils without fail going from less complex to more complex, even one mammal skull in a place were they shouldnt have been evolved yet would disprove the theory and this has not happend once since they started discovering fossils
there are tons of other proofs that can be found in most advanced biology books but are beyond my scope to write here
Yoshi,
very cute!
i should rewatch that sometime i saw it years ago!
Joseph,
I have posted some proofs to evolution in the the thread were we were discussing it (the hoax of global warming) it please debunk them if you can.
Feivel,
if you only accept rabbis whos opinions already agree with your ideas of yiddishkeit and say that all the rest arnt jewish you arnt really giving a reason for having the outlook on yiddishkeit that you do have
Joseph,
I have posted some proofs to evolution in the the thread were we were discussing it (the hoax of global warming) it please debunk them if you can.
Feivel,
if you only accept rabbis whos opinions already agree with your ideas of yiddishkeit (that you were brought up with perhaps) and say that all the rest arnt jewish you arnt really giving much of a reason for having the ideas of yiddishkeit that you do have.
(that you happend to be born to parents of a certain mehalach is not a REASON to beleive it)
Joseph,
you did not explain anything in the other thread you just wrote what you said here in a longer fashion
however i will be dan you lkaf zchus that you will explain yourself in the other thread as you said you will
you have also said that you can easily and succesfully debunk both evolution and manmade global warming and have thus far refused to discuss it.
Feif un,
i have been to a kosher slaughterhouse with a very prominent and good hashgacha and the way the animals are kept and treated is definitly tzar ballai chaim (they are kept in overcrowded pens up to there ankels in excrement outside the slaughter house and are constantly being prodded with elecric prods when they were being unloaded off the truck some of them were pushed out so hard that they literaly tumbled into the pens on there sides)
Joseph,
This is the second time in the past couple of days that you have made a radical statement and have been unable or not willing to discuss it with peopole who disagree with you
if you cannot prove that the things you are saying are true then please have the common decencey to not be condecending to the peopole who disagree with you (“you wouldnt understand anyways”)
Ive been there.
Feivel,
Thinking pepole try to follow the mehalach that makes the most sense to them,
or they follow rabbonim who’s ideas make the most sense to them (of course there are those that just blindly do whatever mehalech there parents happen to hold of so if they are born to non frum parents they wouldnt be frum ect.)
this is usaly how we decide what type of school to send our kids to (yeshivish, modern , chassidish ect.) among other decisions.
to assume that your mehalach is the only correct way either because you happen to have been brought up with that mehalach or because it makes the most sense to you (especialy if you almost certainly wouldnt win a debate with the person who’s shitos you are opposing!) smacks of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance.
Feivel,
thinking pepole try to live there lives according to the mehalach that makes the most sense to them,
or they follow rabbonim who’s ideas make the most sense to them (of course there are those that just blindly do whatever mehalech there parents happen to hold of so if they are born to non frum parents they wouldnt be frum ect.)
this is usaly how we decide what type of school to send our kids to (yeshivish, modern , chassidish ect.) among other decisions.
to assume that your mehalach is the only correct way either because you happen to have been brought up with that mehalach or because it makes the most sense to you (especialy if you almost certainly wouldnt win a debate with the person who’s shitos you are opposing!) smacks of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance.
Feivel,
Evreybody is intrested in the “Emes of the ribono shel olam”,
you dont KNOW that your mehalach is right anymore then Feminist knows hers is right
the only diffrence is that in any debate based purely on torah AND LOGIC her mehalach would almost definetly win.
Feivel,
Evreybody is intrested in the “Emes of the ribono shel olam”,
you dont KNOW that your mehalach is right anymore then Feminist knows hers is right
the only diffrence is that in any debate based purely on torah AND LOGIC her mehalach would almost definetly win.
Chalish,
Were do you get these ideas from?? Do you really think you can figure out how somone feels about there way of life from a short paragraph written by there sister?
The idea that you can “only feel happy if you are frum” is an untrue scare tactic used in all to many yeshivos, and can prove very harmfull when a person discovers that they could be machalal shabbos and not keep mitsvos and still be happy and fufilled,
besides for the moral issues involved it is just not a good idea to use proofs or other tactics that arnt true as this ruins the credibilty of the pepole who say them (if they are willing to lie or are deluded about this maybe they are about evreything else they saying so if somthing they say dosnt make complete sense to me why should i follow it ect.)
SMARTCOOKIE,
People may honestly beleive that g-d exsists but not that he gave the torah
or that he gave the torah but that most of its laws were written for those days and just the basic ideas in it still apply (c’v),
or even that hashem is happy with them for who they are without being shomer shabbos and keeping mitzvos as long as they are prodoctive members of society
or that he just gave the eseres hadibros and the rest was written by moshe rabbeinu
among a host of other things that you or me may find wierd,illogical or even impossable to beleive.
Remember the vast majority of humanity finds the vast majority of the things that we beleive to be wierd and alot of them wonder how we can beleive them.
Smartcookie,
If somone dosnt realise that they feel guilty or unhappy how is it meaningfull to say they feel that way?
Also, on what do you base your assumption that all peapole who went off the derech deep down beleive that being frum is right way to live maybe deep down they actually beleive that being frum is the wrong way to live
Joseph,
Who are “THE rabbonim” does this term only include bnei brak rabbonim, black hat rabbonim, modern orththodox rabbonim, syrian rabonnim, morrocon rabonnim, persian rabbonim, taymoni rabbonim, chassideshe rebbes ect. ect. does the term “THE RABBONIM” mean that if any of these rabbonim say somthing all of klall yisroel should follow whatever takonos they make for there communitys? please clarify. Thank you.
I meant to write even a girl under the age of 12
Joseph,
the torah permits getting married to a 12 year old girl after giving her father more then a shava pruta nowadays i dont think that there is any question that somone who would do somthing like that should be locked up.
MUCHCOMMENSENSE,
Do you honestly beleive the only way to be happy is by being a frum yid? if you do i suggest you open your eyes to the world around you just a little bit, yes i know most of the world is betzem not happy but most pepole in the frum community have the same problems as those in the outside world including being unhappy or deppressed (the only exeption might be the divorce rate wich is less by the religious even of diffrent religions that you would consider wrong and it would therefore be impposable for them to be really happy according to you, but that could just be because there is a much bigger stigma on a frum divorcee then a not frum or jewish one among other reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of the marriages being any better)the reality is there are plenty of pepole who live what you would consider the “wrong” or “evil” kind of lifestyle that feel perfectly happy and fufilled with there lives and plenty of frum good jews that feel unhappy and unfufilled.
Joseph and all you pepole who say tznius hasnt changed in the past 2000 years,
Tznius depends on what is considerd pritzusdick in the time and place were you are: 2000 yrs ago woman walked around barefoot or in sandels, you would probaly hold that is ossur today.
If there was a style that is accteptable to jewish woman today for arguments sake black stockings (this is not a real example) that started being worn specifcly by harlots and the like I think you would agree that it would be ossur for jewish woman to wear them even though it was fine before.
It also makes sense that the gedolim of today would write tshuvas saying its ossur to wear black stockings that would still be around after this style stopped being worn by harlots ect. and it wouldnt be pritzusdick or ossur anymore after it stopped being worn by harlots and the like because that is the only reason it was ossur in the first place.
so bkitzer tsnius depends on what is considerd pritsusdick in the goyishe world to the extent that it dosnt violate showing somthing that is an ervah (hair, elbows, knees ect.)
so if a womans elbows and knees are covered and you think that she is dressed to flashy or tight or that that she violates the spirit of the law (even if you can find some tsuva from 50 or 100 years ago when the entire world considerd this cheap looking that says its ossur) if it isnt considerd cheap nowadays your not liking it is just your opinion and taste.
so for a man to comment on it, is just a man saying what his taste in woman is wich is wrong, indecent and extremeley untsniusdick.
How do we determine who is a gadol?
Give Me A Break,
with all do respect,
if you are not allowed to kill animals you shouldnt be allowed to even if you are kind to them (or even save there lives.)
If you can it shouldnt make a diffrence if you are cruel to them if you are allowed to eat the meat unless clearly specified otherwise by the torah (such as by schita), of course there is a seperate issur to be cruel to animals, but to say the torah made the laws of schita and then commanded us to bring animals as korbonos ,very cleary states that it is okay for pepole to eat meat and then chazal proceed to tell us that we should eat meat on shabbos and yom tov but only means all that in a case were the animals owe you there lives seems to be a bit of a stretch,
besides for the point that were do you get the idea that saving somthings life should be a reason you can kill it?
Give Me A Break,
with all do respect if you are not allowed to kill animals you shouldnt be allowed to even if you are kind to them (or even save there lives.)If you can it shouldnt make a diffrence if you are cruel to them if you are allowed to eat the meat unless clearly specified otherwise by the torah (such as by schita), of course there is a seperate issur to be cruel to animals, but to say the torah made the laws of schita and then commanded us to bring animals as korbonos ,very cleary states that it is okay for pepole to eat meat and then chazal proceed to tell us that we should eat meat on shabbos and yom tov but only means all that in a case were the animals owe you there lives seems to be a bit of a stretch, besides for the point that were do you get the idea that saving somthings life should be a reason you can kill it?
oh and that human breast milk thing eeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!
There are plenty of books that answer the problems you mentioned by rabbis kaplan and schroeder among others (i wont mention r slifkin again!) you can get them in just about any seforim store.
Feif un,
the world being old dosnt contradict the torah so why do you have to come onto a theory that has has absoloutly no proof backing it up, the fact that hashem could have made the world less then six thousand years ago is not a proof that he did, and untill there is such proof why should we assume that this is what happend when evreything physical points towards the fact that it didnt? just because gedolim of a previos generation beleived somthing SCIENTIFIC (as opposed to somthing in religion or anything else) to be true (that the world is young and that the sun circles the earth ect.) dosnt make it necesserily true as there knowledge in science was taken from what scientists at that time beleived.
I think its just that most guys arnt really attracted to big girls
I strongly recomend anyone intrested in either animal rights in yidishkeit or science and torah read the books by r’nosson slifkin on these subjects (science-“The challenge of creation” animal rights-“Of man and beast”) they are a bit hard to come by but you can get them on yashar books website or from Amazon.com
Mariner,
If somone beleives modern day methods of preparing animals to be eaten are cruel and therefore ossur (wich is what i think is what Give Me A Break beleives) and that one shouldnt benefit from them i dont think you should call them a kofer
Samuelbilner,
First of all the planets move because of gravity the sun has the biggest gravatational pull in the solar system and causes all the other planets to move it is therefore more meaningfull to say that the sun is in the center and the earth moves around it since the sun causes the other planets to move as they do (the fact that the sun is what causes the other planets to move has been proven as a fact and we can make predictions based on it how the planets will move and how comets flying by will travel.)
second of all: even according to what you said the theory of relativity would say that niether is circling the other and the achronim argued that with such arguments as “if the earth was moving we would feel the wind” and that the earth revolving around the sun went against storis in tanach such as yehoshua stopping the sun (and not the earth) and not that niether view is true or false