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DVEYKUS,
on what do you base your statement? i dont think any rov would tell you that if somthing shows hefkeirus in a certain place that you can wear it even if you have tsuvas written in a diffrent time or place saying that it is muttar.
I dont see why it should be any diffrent by being motter somthing (just because somthing was ossur in a diffrent time and place because it was considerd to loud or prust by the general society in that place and time if it is no longer considerd that way by society nowadays why should it still be ossur?)
If you can explain why it should please post an explanation.
Joseph,
If somthing is not uncovering an ervah (and lfi plenty of shitas the leg below the knee is not one) it depends on what is considerd normal in the society that you are in what is considerd prust
“Attention grabbing” is a term that changes from place to place: in Europe 500 years ago or baval in the times of the gemara a woman wearing what is considerd very tzniusdick today would probably be considerd to be wearing somthing attention grabbing. what was considerd attention grabbing 50 years ago may not be attention grabbing today
Dveyku613,
Nowadays in America it is considerd the norm in society for woman to wear sandals (or open toed shoes at fancy events) without stockings in the summer.
Joseph,
If you could please direct me to the comments were you explain how i am mistaken i would greatly appreciate it.
Supermom,
you could find a mekor in halacha for just about anything both lechumra or lkula.
Ujm,
If your kid wants a phone they will get it anyway you can get pre paid phones at just about any electronic store you might as well have some idea what they are doing and get them one. Thats the reality
joseph,
if you could maybe explain why it isnt so (this applies as well to most of my other comments you disagree with and you were unable to explain why i was wrong) maybe wouldnt feel a need to write it again
TO Ujm,Joseph and all you pepole who say tznius hasnt changed in 2000 years, tznius depends on what is considerd pritzusdick in the time and place were you are: 2000 yrs ago woman walked around barefoot or in sandels you would probaly hold that is ossur today.
If there was a style that is accteptable to jewish woman today for arguments sake black stockings (this is not a real example) that started being worn by non jewish girls just to show that they are hefker I think you would agree that it would be ossur for jewish woman to wear them even though it was fine before,
and not only that but it also makes sense that the gedolim of today would write tshuvas saying its ossur that would still be around after this style stopped being worn by non jewish girls for that reason.
However once the black stockings stop showing hefkeirus there would be no reason not to wear them any more.
so to only assur things that wernt ossur before for reasons that wernt nogeia before and are nogeia now and not be “motter” for the same reason just dosnt seem to make much sense…. somthing to think about
Joseph,
If you would google the vast majority of those qoutes and read them in the context they were said you would probably find them exteremley UNinspiring,
twisting around what people say to try and make them seem to be saying somthing you find inspiring when most of the time they werent trying to say it is dishonest, and it is more befitting for fundamentalist cristains to do these things then frum jews
Lets be real here It is crucial that a man find his wife beutifull and attractive for them to be married happily (unless they are realy old when they get married v’hamaven yavin)
Feivel,
Do you spend alot of time browsing fundamentilist cristain web sites?
Brooklyn 19,
out EARN men not out LEARN men
and yanky 55
joseph for sure works for ywn
Brooklyn 19,
You said: “le’havdil, any modern orthodox rabbi might be brilliant. and he might even know shas. but he’s still not on the same level”.
On what do you base this statement, how do you determine who is on what level and how do you know wich rabbis have whatever it takes to be on a level were people should listen to them(besides for them agreeing to your outlook on how things should be.)?
Joseph
How can it be a bigger mistake if you make it yourself then if you marry the wrong person because a rav told you to?
I also want make one other thing clear,
I did NOT say “that having a different opinion than Rav Moshe on halacha is like having a different opinion than anyone about any other topic”
I said that choosing to follow another rabbi modern orthodox or otherwise is an opinion just like any other
Charlie Brown,
First of all are you saying that you know that none of the leaders of any other movements in klal yisroel know or knew as much as R’ Moshe?
If you are how do you know?
Second of all,
There are plenty of things that arn’t clear cut as either the thing or situation may not have exsisted in the times of the shulchun oroch or gemara and we just depend on them ‘feeling’ (“Daas torah”) that this is what was meant by the torah.
Third of all,
by many things especialy those benogeia to science or tznius it is very possible that either they did not fully understand how the thing works or that they didnt realise the amount of evidence there is to somthing (by science things)
or they considerd somthing to flashy or crude because in the society they were brought up in it would have been considerd to flashy or crude and it has nothing to do with knowing halacha (by tznius).
Rabbonim and parents can make mistakes when giving an eitza just like any other human being, it has nothing to do with alterior motives.
Brooklyn 19,
Do you have ANY proofs that there are no modern orthodox rabbis (or any other type of rabbis for that matter) who are up to disagreeing with R’ moshe? if you do please list them and we can discuss them,
if not you are just stating an opinion that isnt even backed up by anything (wich you are of course entitled to do however you cannot blame anyone for thinking otherwise)
Brooklyn 19,
Think about what you are saying, are you saying nobody ever argues on R’moshe? thats simply not true and i think you probably know that.
besides for the many times that other chareidei gedolim disagree with him on some issues,
there are probably thousands of modern orthodox rabbis who argue on alot of what he says
you may be of the opinion that those rabbis arn’t as big as R’ moshe or you may value R’ moshe’s opinion over theres wich is fine, but if somone disagrees with that opinion there is really no way you can say that you know they are wrong or even look down or be offended that they disagree with you.
Intellegent,
It isnt,
I was just saying that if you hold somthing so strongly and look down on anyone who disagrees with you but cant explain or defend why you do that is more of a reason to do some introspection then “what you are saying sounds like somthing a reform rabbi” would say is
inttelegent,
It isnt.
my point was just that if you look down on evreybody that disagrees with you on an issue and you cannot even defend or explain why you hold what you do hold, you probaly have more of a reason to do some introspection then i do even if what im saying may sound to you like somthing that one would expect to here from a reform rabbi.
The big one,
If anyone has to do some introspection it is those that look down at people who have diffrent opinions then them and cant even explain why they hold of there own opinion.
Jent,
you completley missed the point,
if j-fem has another rabbi (modern orthodox or otherwise) who argues on R Moshe you have no way of knowing wich one is correct it is only your (or your rabbi’s) OPINION that he (R’ Moshe) is correct.
You cannot look down on or blame someone who disagrees with this opinion the same way you woldnt look down on someone who disagrees with your opinion on what is considerd good food ect.
Can ANYONE who agrees with will hill that no statement of the rishonim or achronim specificly the T.T. qouted earlier in this thread were ever said because of biases or the state of affairs that exsisted in there times, explain the statement of the T.T. according to reality nowadays?
(i can also bring you other statements that were clearly just said because of the times and are either clearly wrong or just wouldnt apply anymore) lity nowadays?
Will Hill,
whats with you and the personel questions?
and can you answer the question i asked you in both the thred about girls learning and the random questions thread?
Will Hill,
You claim all logic and proofs show that i am wrong, can you please list some of those proofs and explain some of your logic that proves me wrong?
Will Hill,
please list some of the proofs that i am wrong, since you say i have been proven wrong.
Will Hill,
If i am wrong and you are thought out then please answer how you KNOW that j fem’s ideas are not what Hashem wants (or that they are “outside the daled ammos of torah yiddishkeit”)
Will Hill,
As you do not have the intellectual honesty to admit on the thread (and probably to yourself also) when you have been proven wrong (as in the thred about girls learning)
and you also probably have no logical reason to beleive what you do beleive
it would do you good not to talk down to peopole who at least actualy think about what they are doing and why they are doing it (as it is apparent j fem does.)
even if the rabbonim who it makes the most sense to you to follow or that you brought up to follow (those are the only 2 reasons you can hold as you do) would disagree with what she may be saying.
will hill,
I AM A GUY! i stink at math though so i have no idea
ywn are you gonna post my reply
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NOTE FROM YW-MODERATOR: please have patience, on a newsday as busy as today, it may take longer to see it appear in the thread.
Will Hill,
First of all i am a man.
Second of all the whole qoute was,
“Girls do not have the intellectual stability and are, therefore, unable to make profound inquries with a sharp mind and appreciate the depth of the Torah”
If you can explain that torah temima in a way that fits with the reality nowadays please do so if you cannot please have the intellectual honesty to admit that just maybe i may be correct. Thank you.
Will Hill,
the torah temima you qoute was so obviosly just a product of the times he lived in (woman were less educated then) I dont know how you could even bring it as a proof to anything in the discussion here,
i mean its a simple fact that you can observe anywere that there are woman lawers politicians & doctors who can think just as clearly and have the same mental stability as men in there fields.
C’mon man wake up and smell the coffee!!
“This is a mistake, and I here wish to affirm that these and other historical sciences have in my opinion scientific character; their hypotheses can in many cases be tested.”
Karl popper- the end othe qoute in my last post
“I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation. …
The theory of natural selection may be so formulated that it is far from tautological.”
karl popper
“… some people think that I have denied scientific character to the historical sciences, such as paleontology, or the history of the evolution of life on Earth; or to say, the history of literature, or of technology, or of science.
karl popper
sorry evreybody i didnt want to make this into another evolution thing i just have to get a few quote here l kovod feivel then i will stop!
“But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life’s physical genealogy.”
Stephen Jay Gould, Natural History, May 1994
” Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory”. -charels darwin in the sentances immediatly after the qoute feivel brought about the eye.
I live in lakewood!
ywn editor is my reply gonna be posted?
YW MODERATOR: No.
intellegent,
You also have no right to look down at people who have a diffrent opinion on wich rabbis to follow the same way you wouldnt look down at somone for having a diffrent opinion then you on what constitutes good food.
Intellegent,
my point was very simple,
YOU cannot decide wich rabbis can be relied on.
you can only decide wich ones you wish to follow (wich is only an opinion you happen to have).
my reasons for beleiving in g-d in general and in judaisim in particular are irrelevent to this conversation.
Joseph (or those that agree with him),
how do you understand this Halacha? do you not consider these things abuse? i hope you do.
i think the answer is that it was written in a time when these forms of abuse werent considerd wrong and were common in the general society were they were written, and that influenced the halacha that was written in that time. (i also think the same would apply to statements by rishonim and achronim about woman not having the mental capacity to learn).
you on the other hand hold that this view is bordering on heresy. can you explain yourself?
…and also says that from 3 years and a day old and older she is miskaddeshes bibeeah.
Charlie Brown,
The shulchan aruch (even haezer 37:1) clearly does not pasken like that gemara and says that a father can be mekadesh his daughter who is a ketana even without her knowledge.
Joseph,
to say that the rishonim and achronim’s statements were never influenced by the times they lived in is simply not true as was pointed out in the “rambam on marriage” thread with a father marrying off his 9 year old daughter.
and “the hoax of global warming” thread about there scientific statements most of wich were clearly wrong and just a product of there times and some of wich they even learn out of psukim such as the chinuch (mitzva 545) saying that no animal ever goes extinct.
Here feivel this is for you,
Thus the creationist’s favourite question “What is the use of half an eye?” Actually, this is a lightweight question, a doddle to answer. Half an eye is just 1 per cent better than 49 per cent of an eye…”
Richard Dawkins
pashuta yid,
first of all thats a very nice story but the gemara dosnt say you can only do it in such a case,
second of all,
a father forcing (or convincing for that matter) his nine year old daughter to marry someone is abuse no matter the how sick or poor the father is.
bogen,
what?
Feivel,
i think you know that i or anyone who has just about any knowledge on these subjects can bring you qoutes and articles from every leading scientist in virtualy evrey field of modern science that both address and answer the qoutes you have mentioned.
however i think that we have discussed this enough and i dont think anybody is really intrested in this thread turning into a evolution debate.
Intelligent,
but how do YOU know wich ones are right?
you dont. there is no way to know.
you follow the rabonnim who’s ideas make the most sense to you or the ones you were brought up with.
if somone elses rov makes more sense to them or they were brought up with a diffrent rov you have no way to know if you are right and therefore have no right to tell people who disagree with you that they are wrong, you can tell them how it seems to you, but that is just your opinion and you can not hold it against people who disagree with your opinion on this just like you wouldnt on any other opinion you have like what color paint looks good in a house or what type of food is good.