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They also did the same experiment using a puppy that they actualy shocked in full view of the person pushing the button.
In the experiment there was also no threat whatsoever to the person pushing the button. They could have simply told the authority figure “no i will not push the button” and walked out. However the majority of the people just pushed it because they were told to do so by an authority figure.
The conclusion that was reached was that even good people will generaly do somthing that they feel is wrong if told to do so by an authority figure.
I think blind obedience to ANY (religious or otherwise) authority figure without a logical reason, is a very dangrous and bad thing that generaly can and will lead to even good people doing terrible things, as was demonstrated by the experiment mentioned above.
jfem,
Dont expect Joseph to bring a source or svara for his statements as he seems from his posts to be incapable of explaining why he holds most of the things he holds, he just beleives what he beleives because he does.
Thats all there is to it, any conversation as to why somthing should be beleived seems to go right over his head.
Squeak,
You said” But I think that a present day talmid chochom would be able to easily refute any bible criticism that comes his way withough actively studying the subject. One with a true understanding of the Torah can defend it from falsehood”
That is simply not true and is very well demonstrated by rabbi miller’s faulty attepmts at disproving both evolution and bible critcisim.
Joseph,
what you arnt getting is that it dosnt matter what the chazon ish said on this subject as other talmidei chachomim who we have no real reason to assume were any less great then the chazon ish argued on him.
If you decide to hold by evrey opinion of the chazon ish that is fine but if someone else dosnt and you have no real logical reason to say that they are wrong (if you do please post one) for going with a talmid chochom (M.O. or otherwise) who argues on the chazon ish be very carefull before you are mvazeh there talmidei chachomim or look down at them.
Joseph,
Your last point is not necessarly true, but since you only except the opinion of the rabbonim who’s opinons fit your narrow view of things there is really nothing to discuss with you about it.
Joseph,
What does that have to do with my post??
Squeak,
If evolution (not the mechanisim it is achieved by but that animals have evovled from a common ancestor) was controversial among leading scientists you may be right. However it isnt, EVREY leading proffesional in the field of natrual science beleives in it (yes even michael behe of the I.D. movement he just beleives certain aspects could not have come about by the forces of physics alone and would need an inttelegent designer to help them).
Joseph and Squeak,
What you guys have all wrong is that you feel you can be mvazeh or make fun of any talmid chachom if there hashkafos are diffrent then those of the rabbonim you happen to follow.
You see, if i said i beleive that R’ Y.B. soloviechick (or any other rov for that matter) was a bigger talmid chochom and gadol then say R’ Aharon Kotler z’l you would probabably be offended and talk down to me for thinking that although you really have no more of reason to beleive that he wasnt then he was.
If i used just the first initials for lets say R’ Avigdor Miller z’l’s name (like how you do for one of the leaders of the mo rabbonim’s name) because some rov who i happen to hold is greater then him for whatever reason said this you would say i am being mvazeh a talmid chochom and have no chelek in olam haboh.
If you are going to constantly be mvazeh gedolim who’s hashkafos disagree with your way of doing things dont act all self rightous and offended when people do the same to the ones you happen to follow for whatever reason, because you are doing the same exact thing.
Joseph,
Do you think calling people names when your “arguments” fall apart makes you any more convincing?
If you beleive so strongly that yossiea’s statements are false or wrong please explain why in a clear logical way.
Yossiea,
you said,
“Wasn’t it R’ Aharon who compromised halacha when he set up a kollel system in Lakewood?”
What halacha was compromised by setting up a kollel system in lakewood?
Brooklyn19,
Of course since evreyone is diffrent there are diffrent methods that would have to be used to bring them back, however to say there is no main reasons why kids go off the derech (or that having a cell phone is a main one of them) is simply not true.
Sjnyc,
What you arnt understanding is that most of the peopole you are debating here didnt reach the conclusions they have by really thinking the issues through and weighing the proofs and arguments.
They beleive what there rebbonim tell them and they beleive that there rabbonim are always right just because they do.
Even if you would show them that the facts are that there rabbonim are wrong (as was done with science issues and other issues) they would still for the most part think that there rabbonim are right no amount of arguments will change that.
Brooklyn19,
“the part about looking into what makes kids go off. (you can probably spend every second of your life on that one and not even come close to the answer. there is no answer.)”
You are wrong, in most cases there are answers and in alot of cases they are the same as eachother.
There are books on the subject with interviews of the kids themselves as well as people who deal with kids at risk or who went off the derech professionaly.
Nowadays many people who went off the derech even have blogs were they state clearly WHY they went off the derech (and most of them are for similar reasons)
Bkitzer if somone really wants to know why kids go off the derech they really really can find out.
Joseph,
You said,
“In fact, there are far more followers of Rav Miller ZTV’L alone, then there are MO altogether.”
If you by that you mean people that agree with and really know alot of what he said no there arn’t.
Joseph,
Can you then please explain the situation and show me wich points i am missing
Brooklyn19,
If a kid wants to go off the derech having a cell phone may possibly make it easier for them to go off
However it is not (at least in the vast vast majority of cases) the reason why they want to go off and once they want to go off you not getting them a phone isnt going to change the situation they will do it anyway even if it is a little harder.
It would help alot more to change whatever it is that actualy makes kids want to go off instead of concentrating on things like cell phones wich dont.
Brooklyn19,
If somone dosnt have other issues (such as abuse or bad freinds ect. ect.) with yiddishkeit, generaly a cellphone would not turn them off to yiddishkeit.
To say that cellphones are the problem is missing the point in the vast majority of cases.
Brooklyn19,
If you went off the derech mainly because you had a cellphone you are the exception (to say the least) not the rule.
Joseph,
you said “Rabbosai, Cell phones and children is a large part of why Kids go off the derech and the teens at risk issue”.
Thats ridiculous, No it isnt!
Were do you get your information from?
Inttelegent,
I apologize if you never said that,
I thought I remeberd you saying that in another thread.
Intellegent,
You said “While there were changes in the mesora over the years I don’t think there were any valid ones that promoted “modernising Judaism””
Really? on what knowledge do you base this opinion because there are plenty of rabbis who know alot of torah that would disagree with you.
How do you decide wich rabbi’s opinions are valid and wich ones arnt?
INTELLEGENT,
But arnt you of the opinion that whatever is paskend in one tkufa is always nogeia and to say that certain aspects of halacha change with time is bordering on heresy?.
Rebitzin,
What most of those blogs are saying is that despite the fact that chreidim tend to say that there mehalach is the only one that is authentic judaisim there are actualy other affiliations that are just as authentic.
Notpashut,
I am respondinding to your post for the same reason you responded to mine.
Maybe we do live on diffrent planets: i live in Lakewood, went to mesivta here and went on to learn in B.M.G. for a bit.
I daven in a Shul who’s rov is a grandson in law of R’ A. Miller,
I hear and know what black hatters in this area generaly say and think about people of other hashkafic affiliations and i hear them qoute other great leaders (whose names i wont mention here out of respect) of the chareidei black hat’s establishment opinions of other affiliations and they ARNT for the most part respectfully disagreeing.
They are generaly saying that those other affiliations are bchlal not in the realm of authentic Judaisim to put it (very very) mildly.
It is O.K. to not put certain qoutes or opinions ect. of rabbonim (and if you are really a yeshiva guy you know what i mean) on the internet or any other public forum if they will offend certain people but to denie that they exsist bchlal in order to try and win an argument is just not honest.
Notpshut,
Who are you fooling?
Its the chareidei olam black hat olam who greneraly say that M.O rabbanonim arnt real rabbonim (or gedolim) or are minnim ect. and that M.O. yeshivos shouldnt be called yeshivos, NOT the other way around (yes im sure you can bring me a qoute from a M.O. rabbi who says chareidei yeshivos arnt yeshivos however as a general rule you know I am right).
It is the chareidei black hat olam who many times wont let there kids play with another kid because he is to “modern” not the other way around
It is the chareidei black hat olam that generaly say that there mehalach is the only one that can really be called Torah yiddishkeit NOT the other way around.
Notpashut,
Nobody is vilifiing anyone for keeping any amount of chumros, we are just asking that you or black hatters in general shouldnt look down on people who either dont hold of or dont keep your chumros.
NOTPASHUT,
I have read most of rabbi miller’s books and listend to probably over 100 tapes of his. I dont see how this would change or is applicable to any of the opinions in this conversation
i use dover oil
Yros,
It isnt. they generaly hold things along the line of rav millers statement
Notpashut,
O.K. so what was his reason? because so far anyone who i have asked (and i have asked many people) has failed to provide one that makes any sense.
Just because someone is a big talmid chochom does not mean that evreything they say that dosnt make any sense without a mekor that clearly means what they say, must be excepted as fact.
and what do you mean by “know better” because most M.O people know that chareidim hold it is assur gomor to have a T.V., so yes his statement WOULD include the vast majority of the M.O. community.
Notpashut,
Lets call a spade a spade, please dont missrepresent what your leading rabbonim say to try to get other people to agree with you.
Thank you.
NotPashut,
you said:”Does that mean that every MO person is bad. Of course not…
…When he makes a whole fight out of losing Olam Habah instead of looking at the real issue here – he has missed the boat.”
Well R’Miller is saying that evrey M.O person who has a T.V. in there house has no chelek in olam haboh, Do you think good people dont get a chelek in olam haboh?
JOSEPH,
Thanks for clarifying!
Joseph,
Really, were?
i know he said you dont have a chelek in olam haba if you have a t.v.
Just were did he say it goes into seforim hachitzonim?
as according to the way alot of rishonim and achronim explain seforim hchitzonim (that either it means reading philosophy books of apikorsim WITH THE INTENTION TO LIVE ACCORDING TO THEM (meiri sanhedrin kuf amud beis)
or that it means seforim that put words of tanach next to apikorsis
(rif & rosh same place)
I dont really see how a T.V. would fall into that category
Joseph,
were does rav miller z’l say that he considers T.V. seforim chitzonim
Why? wow this is WIERD!
Notpashut,
Wow! thats the second time that happend here… at least it only happens here!! just curios what made you think that and what gave away that i am a guy?
NOTPASHUT,
With all do respect you are missing the point,
If there are rabbonim on both sides of an argument I or anyone else have the right to demand that one side either prove there position logicly or show me a mekor that can only mean what they are saying is true.
If they cannot do this then you (or they) have no right to call me an apikoros (or any other name for that matter!) for not trusting there judgement or not listening to them. You can listen and beleive what they say yourself obviosly, however you cannot blame others for questioning there judgement or not beleiving them when they dont bring clear proofs to there positions (either via logic or a mekor).
However in most cases chareidim will demand that you listen, beleive and not argue with there rabbonim even when they fail to explain there logic or show you a mekor that can only mean what they say, no matter how radical or how little logical sense it makes, because they have “daas torah” or because “we must listen to our gedolim”.
They will also generaly have no problem belittling someone on the basis of what a rov of theres said is either an apikoros, min or tipish ect. without honestly hearing both sides of the issue and waying the arguments before comming to a decision.
If you wish to say you cannot make any (logical) decisions on your own then how and why on earth did you decide to follow the rabbonim you do follow?
NOTPASHUT,
You said:
“I am not saying & never said that everyone has to listen to chareidi Gedolim. I happen to believe that anyone who doesn’t is mistaken, but that is just my opinion – everyone else can do whatever they want”
If this was honestly the way most of the black hat chareidim thought you would be right, however you know as well as i do that as a general rule they dont think like this.
You know as well as I do that they dont consider the rabbonim who lead both the M.O. Y.U. or mizrachi communitys to be gedolim (most of them feel the same way about chabad leaders also!) and alot of them routinley call the leaders of these movements apikorsim and minim among other things.
notpashut,
puhleez whatever R’ tendeler said about chareidim it cant possibly be as bad as the things that are said against M.O. Y.U. rabbonim (and people alot of times to) in chareidi yeshivas just about evrey day (calling them apikorsim at evrey opportunity ect.).
NOTPASHUT,
Why is it that the black hat world as a general rule cannot accept that there are rabbis who know just as much torah as there rabbis and have a diffrent hashkofo?
Why do black hatters generaly insist that the only rabbonim that are worth listening to and are gedolim too (as opposed to “just geniuses” whatever that is supposed to mean) are rabbonim that subscribe to there hashkofo?
Why do black hatters generaly feel free to question the judgement of and demean huge talmedei chachomim who’s hashkofo they disagree with but call anyone who questions the judgement of one of there rabbonim a rasha and an apikoros?
R.O.B
Thanks for clarifying.
Myshadow,
I was talking about not letting a teen have a phone at all.
By texting it wont harm them not to have it, however it does increase the risk that they will go out and get there own phone that has texting without telling you.
Maybe its worth the risk maybe its not, it depends on the kid i guess.
Doc,
Did R.O.B.’s post not seem to be supporting the more leineint view of tinok shinshba to you?
Doc,
R.O.B clearly holds of the more leinient side as he made clear in his post wich stated as follows
“Why take a very strict interpretation of “tinok shenishba”- that is, that the child should NEVER have had any contact with Jews, rather than the more lenient one that says that the lack of Jewish education and surroundings qualify someone as ‘tinok shenishba”, regardless whether he/she had some contact with Jews?
If you go only by the first one, you make thousands of jews sinners,not exactly what we should do at any juncture.if you take the latter view, then , you are giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, which is, incidentally, the Middah of Hakodseh Boruch huh and
Why the chumro indeed”…..
so i asked him if he has a mekor for this line of reasoning (wich i termed as a more leinient view).
Again if anyone would have posted ANYTHING (a sevara or mekor) supporting a more machmir approach i would have asked them for for a mekor as well.
What is so hard for you to understand?
Doc,
I also posted about two posts before the post that “the big one” qouted that i DID think that it could be that tinok shnisba dosnt apply anymore but i had a question on it (not applying anymore)
R.O.B. posted somthing that made alot of sense saying we should take the more leinient approach so i asked him if he had a mekor.
If anyone else had posted somthing premoting a more machmir approach i would have asked them for a mekor.
its as simple as that.
brooklyn19,
yeah but why would tinok shnishba make it any diffrent just wondering….
Doc,
please mention the name of a thread were i lost an argument against either joseph or the big one.
Notpashut,
The arguments for banning generaly are,
The things they are banning are harmfull and either banning IS effective or even if it isnt at least they are taking a stand against it and showing how things should be according to that why dont they ban smoking (im not taking sides here just pointing this out)
notpashut,
your logic is a bit off,
smoking is not comparable to ruchnius things as we know smoking kills because we see the results and have satistics to prove it
the arguments against rabbonim banning things are either
that the things they are banning arnt harmfull to the neshama (wich in most cases is pretty hard if not impossible to prove either way).
or that banning it wouldnt be an effective way of taking care of the problem
notpashut,
Just curios why would tinok shnishba have an effect on yayin nessech?