Zumba=Not Tzanuah?

HaKatan: No, Zumba is not against halachah. I know that my Rav told me he thinks the ban is ridiculous. It’s just another pointless chumrah brought about by some kanoi who put pressure on some Rabbonim.

if somebody looks zumba like a “sport” , a dance , (like sport) …. i think there is no problem with tznius and halacha but if its more that its probably a little problem of tznius because i think its not “very kosher” as dance…its little provocant …(like some other dance ) …

but i’m not a possek halacha …

ask your Rav /Rebetzein or someone you can discuss with about that …

I’m sitting and reading this (which i hardly do) and thinking to myself:

Hashams design of opposite gender gravitation -across all living things- (to prevent living things to cease to exists within 100 or so years) has to be the most absolutely fascinating creation and philosophy, its pretty amazing. But i’m still having a hard time in trying to understand the reason for cells with half the chromosomes, A different design (such as Parthenogenesis) does exists.

Ma Rabu Maasecha Hashem!

Es Chataei Ani Mazkir Hayom. Seeing is believing. I went on-line to assess the Zumba exercise class and determined that it is clearly no different than any other vigorous exercise. Naturally, in a frum environment, you would not have men in the class; but you can say that about any exercise class. I have seen far worse moves by young yeshiva fellows in men’s circles at weddings. In fact, I would say that many of the Yeshiva Boys Chior movements comes right out of Zumba. I only wish that I had the koach for such leibedekeh exercise. So let’s find some real znius issues to expend our energies.

I really don’t know what this Zumba is and I’m not going online to look at the moves to see if they aren’t Tzinus.

But those that claim that the moves aren’t Tzinus and the reason it’s Mutter is because it’s an all women’s class, so you wouldn’t have a problem if women learn and do belly-dancing in class, right?

HaKatan: Your opening statement is divisive, disgusting, and reeks of Sinas Chinam. Just because someone may or may not be “MO” (whatever that even means to you anyway), their potentially vast Halachic knowledge is inherently irrelevant. I am very strongly being Moche your blatant Sinas Chinam.

“It is also my personal opinion that dancing with poles or similar should not be done in public”

Nor dancing with Chechs, Slavs, Brits, or Danes.

I sometimes do dances that are obviously meant to be provocative, if performed among men. I also sometimes listen to non-jewish music. This isn’t a confession, btw, there’s a point coming…

Being a good dancer and someone who really enjoys music doesn’t make things easier. But at least my sensitivities aren’t dulled to a point where I don’t see anything wrong with it. There is a reason why I would be shocked beyond words if I saw the wife of our Rav dancing like that, or listening to non-jewish music. And I hope one day I will be strong enough to stop doing both.

All I’m saying is, if you find it hard to stop, trust me, I get it. But don’t pretend that there’s no problem with it.

“I would be shocked beyond words if I saw the wife of our Rav dancing like that”

I would be shocked beyond words if I saw our Rav playing golf, but that doesn’t mean that there is anything wrong with it.

Sam2:

Although you probably meant it differently that I understand it, I agree with your statement that “just because someone may or may not be “MO” (whatever that even means to you anyway), their potentially vast Halachic knowledge is inherently irrelevant.”

This is true. The greatest talmid chacham in the world is capable of doing aveiros and also of being biased. And if such a person is mattir one or more aveiros due to his ideological bias, then it’s quite understandable that he would also be mattir a different issur due to that same ideological bias. Again, I wrote this and the above with all due respect to him, as indicated. I was sincere in that respect and equally sincere in its irrelevance to the topic at hand.

I felt the need to *respectfully* but unequivocally explain away this chilul Hashem that a Torah authority allegedly permitted this nivalah. In truth, by chilul Hashem, “Ain cholkim kavod laRav”, but I tried to be cholek kavod regardless and explain that it’s likely an ideological bias that could cause one to issue such a psak, yet with all due respect to his potentially vast Torah knowledge.

So I’m sorry you feel offended. But what is truly “disgusting” and “divisive” is when some who claim to be orthodox choose to trample on our Torah in the misguided pursuit of base and decrepit secular culture. Especially since your own Rav JBS said so himself that one should *avoid* secular culture if at all possible. Yet you proudly proclaim your religious pursuit of secular culture even when such pursuit is clearly kineged halacha.

Gavra:

What about the rest of it which is not Kadosh? Sensual music could, theoretically, be used to serve Hashem, as you posit. But sensual music created in tumaah without that requisite kedusha cannot. It reminds me of “Lama li rov zivcheichem amar Hashem”.

Regarding your second point referencing my point about pole dancing and your bringing up perfume, perhaps this will help explain it.

Say there were a perfume that was heavily and solely marketed to zonas. And for years, ever since its introduction, everyone who smells that perfume knows that the wearer is a zona. Not a businesswoman nor anything other than a zona.

Say some guy decides he likes the scent and buys it for his wife. Lets grant that he doesn’t want his wife to be a zona, but is buying it lisheim mitzva. But here is the problem. The brain knows this is a zona’s perfume. So there’s no way that improper thoughts will not go through his (and her) mind if she wears that perfume, even if the overwhelmingly vast majority of those thoughts will be pure.

The only exception to this is if he (and she), personally, *never* knew that this perfume is a zona’s perfume. Then, it would serve its purpose appropriately as it is, after all, only perfume.

The same goes for pole dancing.

The problem with Zumba, however, unlike the above hypothetical perfume and pole dancing, is that no such prior knowledge is needed for the music to negatively affect you. Music, as I wrote earlier, is the language of the soul. Again, you don’t need to have prior exposure to anything to be negatively affected by impure music. Nothing can save you from being negatively affected by impure music, other than not listening to it.

And the Zumba dances, too, if they were choreographed to be sensual, then that’s certainly inappropriate in public, as written above (even *if* the ultimate purpose is to enhance one’s individual relationship between man and wife).

CherryBim:

MyTake made an excellent point, and I commend her for trying to reach out to those who are trying to be mattir issurim, and you chose to ruin its effect with an inane remark.

No, you would not be “shocked beyond words” to see your Rav playing golf in anywhere close to the same degree as you would be if she saw a rebbetzin engaged in this nivalah.

More precisely, you would not be “shocked beyond words at how terrible it is” for your Rav to play golf. But she would be if she saw a Rebbetzin engage in this nivalah.

The koach of the yetzer hara is truly awesome. She is telling you that she has the sensitivity to appreciate that it’s wrong, and she understands it is hard to stop, but you make light of the whole thing and deny it outright so that people should go on thinking it’s perfectly okay to engage in this nivalah.

It is wrong. It is inappropriate. It is assur.

HaKatan: What you imply is pure Apikorsus and is Megaleh Ponim Batorah. No one should have an “ideological bias” when making Halachic decisions. That is the problem with today’s “Hashkofos”. People let it override Halachic considerations. Why can’t you even consider the possibility (which I would assume is true; otherwise people should not follow this Rav) that maybe he thinks that this isn’t a violation of Halacha? It has to be that if he thinks something is Muttar that you think is Assur that he has ideological differences which affect his understanding of Halacha? Come on. That is disgusting, not-Jewish, and destroys the validity of Torah, the Mesorah, and Halacha. Ideological considerations never should and never do influence Halacha, either Lehakel or Lehachmir. Saying either of those is complete Apikorsus.

Wolf -“Why not? And she can dance for her husband in the privacy of their own home. Or is that a problem for you as well?”

I won’t respond to you until you ask EEES (your wife) her opinion about Frum women belly-dancing! Then we will discuss it.

OK, now you’ve raised the ante. A husband and wife can be as affectionate as they want to be or need to be in their own private moments. Just as the Torah testifies that Yitzchok was “m’tzachek es Rifka”, without details; so too we need not get into details of husband-wife affections and relationships… whether it’s uncovering her hair in her husband’s presence, or singing for him, or dancing with him, or anything else…hakol mutar. No tznius police in the private domain of married couples.

whether it’s uncovering her hair in her husband’s presence, or singing for him, or dancing with him, or anything else…hakol mutar. No tznius police in the private domain of married couples.

Ah, I seem to remember that there was once one poster on these boards who made it a point to say it wasn’t “hakol mutar.” The specific example he used was mixed swimming (even in private) was forbidden.

The Wolf

The Wolf -“OK, I’ve asked Eees. She has no problems with women learning belly-dancing to be used in the privacy of their homes with their husbands (if taught in an all-female class).

Now, please answer my question as you agreed. Is this a problem for you?”

That wasn’t the question. Ask her if she doesn’t think there is a problem to learn belly-dancing just for exercise (all female class), nothing to do with the husband?

Then we will discuss.

HaKatan: I am entirely rejecting your assumption that “MO” (the fact that this Rav is even “MO” is an assumption you are making based off a subtitle) bases their Halachos on anything other than Halachic sources. I am very strongly protesting your implications that “MO” is an ideology that in some (or any) cases overrides Halacha.

Oh, and the Rambam says that “Hakol Muttar”. And Pashtus in the Gemara in Nedarim is against the Chumros brought down in those Simanim in Orach Chayim.

Yitay: I never understood why or how the Mechaber brought down those Halachos. The earlier Rishonim almost all omitted them for a reason-namely, that they’re against P’shat in the Gemara. I’ve had almost that entire Siman as a Tzarich Iyun for years. I have no real answer, especially as the Mechaber brings them down as Halacha and not Chumra/Middos Chassidus.

HaKatan:

I have our point of disagreement:

You believe that someone’s husband dancing with a pole in private for his wife will make the wife think of an exotic dancer.

I believe it will make her think of her husband.

I agree if it make him/her think of the worker then it should not be done.

You agree(?) that if it doesn’t, then it is Kadosh.

Shalom Al Yisroel!

P.S. The Steipler in his Iggeres for Chassanim basicly says that those simanim in SA are not applicable in this day and age. I’m not disagreeing with the point of “Kos Acher”, though.

Sam2:

Yes, I am assuming the Rav is also “MO” based on the sub-title. You can believe whatever you’d like about MO (which I believe you identify with), but the reality speaks for itself.

I happened to be in an MO school recently, and I saw something thin and light fall out of a young teenage girl’s pocketbook. Her classmate, a boy, casually joked (I hope it was a joke) to her “Was that a [male contraceptive]?” This is, of course, a crying shame on a number of levels, and this kind of thing just doesn’t happen in a traditional orthodox Yeshiva and is indicative of a larger underlying rot that occurs when Torah occasionally takes a back seat to secular culture. You can’t intelligently argue with facts. I’m really not interested in listing people’s “liberties”, so please look up the Beacon thread (I understand that’s not representative of your entire MO world, and neither is this story, but neither are they irrelevant) and others if you need further examples (you don’t).

The point I am trying to convey to a “Yeshiva World” audience is that just because someone claims his Rav said Zumba is muttar, that is to be taken completely differently if that Rav is MO because MO proudly takes liberties with halacha/hashkafa that traditional Orthodox does not. So unless you also wish to take those liberties, you are better off asking a non-MO Rav. It’s somewhat like if you ask a Satmar Chassid when the latest time for Mincha is. Your Rav will not allow you to daven that late, but his does. That’s the essential point (though I am not implying Satmar is taking liberties with Halacha, CH”V), and if you’re offended then I’m sorry but I still maintain what I’ve written as it is pashut uvarur.

Again, I respect his Torah and learning and attempted fidelity to halacha, but it is fantastical to presume his being MO will not affect his piskei halacha, as I explained above.

Gavra:

Yes to the (?), and Amein to Shalom Al Yisrael.

Sam2: You were the one who called them(/yourself) apikorsim, not I. First, I was speaking of rabbanim/poskim, not the hamon am. Second, please “don’t put words in my mouth” as I did not say nor do I believe any such thing.

To be clear, any posek/Rav who identifies as MO, assuming he is not schizophrenic, will likely issue psakim in accordance with MO shitos, as this is his ideology. Otherwise, he would seem hypocritical. Are you suggesting either of the above?

This is, again, pashut.

As to the issue at hand, I guess you’ve conceded the point(s) since your only response was a wild and unfounded accusation. Also good to know.

I agree with with Sam2, that piskei Halocha may not be driven by ideology. It happens though both by the MO and the Chareidim.

Hillel and the Rambam and even Rav Moshe were considered modern Orthodox by many of their contemporaries, so MO gedolim are in good company.

Feif Un

Proud Modern Orthodox

You are completely wrong! If anything, Modern Orthodox keeps halachah the way it was kept for thousands of years!

Yes, but which thousands of years? And by whom? Care to be more sepcific?

The Chareidi way of life does not allow Torah violations such as mixed dancing, mixed swimming, women wearing pants & sleeveless tops, and married women with uncovered heads. Hillel, the Rambam, and Rav Moshe ZT”L did not allow these, either.

A husband and wife must act with modesty in front of Hashem, even when they are alone, because there are rules of the Torah that govern their behavior. They cannot do whatever they like.

ALL Jews, whether married or unmarried, must be aware that Hashem is watching their behavior, always.

“Shivisi Hashem L’Negdee Tamid – I keep Hashem before me, always.”