Zumba=Not Tzanuah?

gavra_at_work –

I heard a chasuv rosh yeshiva in E”Y say that tznius is for women like what Torah is for men. Torah is not the end all be all, but then again, it kind of is actually. Tznius is not “just a woman’s mitzvah” like lighting Shabbos candles is, it’s much bigger than that. And it should be treated as such.

It’s hard for us women to get into a halachic/gemaric discussion and debate, because we’re just not qualified, but, in my humble opinion, that is not how women tend to approach mitzvos anyway, particularly the mitzvah of tznius. How much of tznius is actually halacha anyway? Barely any of it. Cover yourself, no pants, nothing too tight. And all the rest is up to the interpretation of each woman. Tznius is not about how important the gemara says it is, it’s about the sensitivities and *personal* feelings toward the mitzvah, and respecting yourself as a princess of Hashem. We don’t look at these theoretical gemara concepts in order to figure out our view on the subject, as men might, we look at them in order to get chizuk and the desire to grow in our tznius. So in that vein, if one reliable person tells me that tznius is a crazy powerful mitzvah that can have a huge effect on the world on the klal and individual levels (and conversely hurt it if not abided by), I’ll take that and use it in my life to help me in my everyday tznius. Just like there can be more than one set of “al shlosha dvarim haolam omed”, the fact that one idea might seem to contradict another does not mean they can’t both be 100% true. You can’t go wrong when trying to pump up tznius and make it look amazingly special, but you can go wrong trying to go the other way. In my unlearned woman’s opinion, at least.

dandelion

What you heard from some “Rosh Yeshiva” is an actual statement made by the Vilna Gaon that said something similar, but different. Your anonymous Rosh Yeshiva then stole the Gaon’s statement for himself, and misquoted him! (or you are misquoting). If you would see the actual statement of the Gaon, you would understand it. I myself have quoted it a number of times on this forum.

I have no problems with the rest of your Megillah. It is not halacha, or an attempt to address the issue at hand (The gemorah or the Choftez Chaim). If your Megillah is for the OP, then you are being more maikel than myself, but you are entitled to your opinion (even if you think that you are not).

Sorry to rip into you, but you are making the same mistake as those before you in the thread. Don’t take anyone’s word for it, insist that you see the source inside, even if you are a lowly female. (cyn)

WOWW!!! How many of you are stating your opinion without even SEEING what zumba is all about??? Well I went to see it with a friend. It is just as bad as everyone says if not worse. The people in this class needed to get out all their negative energy. Is it in line with Kol Kevuda Bas Melech Pnima?? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Those moves are for nightclubs and thats where they are doing it too. Not everyone but some of them….

Pushate Yid: You can not compare this to the way some bucherim are dancing.Even though they might be out of hand, this is not comparable!!

Dandelion: GIT GEZUKT!!

Shrek: Women can exercise, it is healthy and needed, BUT it can be done with in halachos of Tznius!

Jothar: My Rosh yeshiva told me that book is a good way to scare girls away from tznius. He said it contains almost every chumrah known and presents them all as basic, mandatory, halachah instead of as chumros. He said he advises people not to read it.

a mamin:

how can you say that women should exercise? Has anyone asked a shaila to a Gadol about this? Has anyone gotten a hechsher for any particular type of exercise? Has a Gadol paskened the proper attire for women who wish to exercise? The proper amount of time women should spend on this activity?

Until there is a clear psak on this issue I don’t know how you can say this so definitively. Even if you consider it a medical/health issue, surely one must ask a Rav just as one would ask a Rav before consuming medicine that might not be kosher.

Jothar: Oz Vehadar Levusha is not meant to be a halacha sefer (as per Rav Falk himself). One must ask their own Rov what to do. The book (as I’ve pointed out before) is Rav Falk’s idealized opinion as per what is the ultimate Bas Yisroel. Nothing to do with Halacha (he is more maikel in his actual SH”UT).

gaw- so just a cute aside – my friend was driving south on rt 9, and a yeshiva guy swerved straight into her from the side st – so she was telling him that he almost killed her and that at her levaya they would have said that everybody would say we have to be tznius, and nobody would have said that you drove like a maniac…..

Shrek, it sounds like you are just looking for an excuse not to exercise – the Gemara (and many other reliable sources, unlike Oz Vehadar “Lebusha”) make it very clear that a woman has to make herself attractive to her husband. Granted, each man has a different idea of what’s attractive, and if you/your husband has a thing for 300lb behemoths, good for you. Sarah Imeinu was blatantly beautiful completely naturally, so she didn’t need to play tennis c’v. The rest of us would like our wife to be in decent shape – I’m not saying a size 2 is necessary, although it certainly is nice ;)- but at the very least she should be in shape.

The same goes for the so called “untznius” dancing. If the girl is not doing it in front of any men, not including her husband, there is nothing wrong with it. Where is there a halacha against a girl having a nice body, if she uses it only to please her husband? Please find it for me, I would love to see it.

this is really funny! im usualy the one defending all the dance stuff-i do hipp-hop type dance and am forever defending the funky beats and everything…

so i find it really amusing that people are defending this so passionately. do you even know what zumba is?

the dances are by definition (look them up!) designed to be provocative, sensual dances that are all about certain parts of the body arrousing….

so that’s the definition. now i think everyone needs to clear up whether or not its ok to dance like that if there are no men around.

but please. dont kid yourself that its just “excercize dance class for women”

i believe it has a lot to do with attitude. for example with regard to dancing at chasunas, when i got married (i’m persian) i refused to have even sephardic sounding hebrew music because i believe that the way those in my generation (i’m in my 20’s) see that type of dancing is as a chance to be provocative, rebellious, and cool. however i have gone to events and seen pure, pure rabbis and rebbetzins dancing sephardic with no provacativeness, and none of the trief feeling–it even looks refined.

1. The people who are pro these types of things are forgetting the concept of shivisi Hashem lenegdi tomid. Hashem is everywhere and sees you even when you aren’t in public and aren’t in front of men. There are certain ways that Jews may not act in even when in private even in solitude!

2. The way you act influences your essence (Sefer Hachinuch- He was a Rishon)

If you act immodest even in private or not in front of the opposite gender in short order you will be acting immodestly even in public. The things we do, EVERY thing we do effects who we are and what we become and acting immodestly allows the midoh of pritzus to take a hold in our personality.

What ever happened to Tebo? (teebow? Tybo?) You know, the kick boxing exercise routine. Would that be considered more tznius that Zumba? Is punching and kicking more refined than wiggling?

I’d like to reiterate my point, ladies.

Those who say “I know Retzon Hashem, after all, I’m in sync with Him and you are not”,may be comfortably ignored. Just ignore them. They claim to know, but they don’t. Don’t let them get to you, even if their mommy told them so.

I’ve been chalishing to try zumba out. just never had the time. after reading all this, maybe i wont.

I understand why some of you would feel that certain types of excersize might be untznius even in front of women, but to go ahead and say that all excersize is questionable?!

I used to go to the gym all the time. Now that b”h i have my own family, i dont have time. But i can tell you that the few times i wake up extra early to go to my basement and do excersize, you cannot imagine the energy it gives! For me, its much easier to do excersize in a group as opposed to a machine or on my own. So please, dont bash those women who excersize until you’re the one who takes care of all the responosiblities that a mother does.

apushitayid- my wife exercises regularly. i asked her what zumba is, cuz i aint got a clue, and she replied “yuch, its shaking parts of your body you should be embarassed to do in private.” i guess its not like regular exercise.

apushatayid: Probably because some “askan” who has a problem with it, went to some Rav who has no idea what zumba is or what it looks like and completely misrepresented it to him, trying to get is banned. Unfortunately, he succeeded.

a mamin: I never said that you banned it, and I never said you were a Rav. Unfortunately, there have been many things recently which were a result of things being misrepresented to Rabbonim by people with an agenda. I believe this is one of them.

Feif un: I think your screen name says it all…. no need for further comment.

zumba is based on latin dance moves which are intended to be very sensuous and provocative. that said it is possible to dance without being provocative if you stick to the steps and moderate the other moves. certainly the dances as danced originally are not tsnius but that doesn’t mean that you can’t dance them in a tzniusdik fashion. you can do the same with nearly every dance. yes ,it is proper to raise the sensitivity of a bas yisrael and avoid dancing in a provocative way ,and this includes all dancing. years ago i used to see girls at weddings dance in a very “prust” way and i never understood it. it doesn’t matter if you’re only dancing in front of women. its unbecoming to a bas yisrael. i think the classes should be renamed “kosher latin” and go out and have fun. just like we’re allowed to use parve milk with fleishig and fake bacon and shrimp, we should be able to dance fast to latin music albeit in a kosher way. and yes eliminate the unacceptable lyrics.

“pet peeve”, I think you’re wrong.

Men, who have spent many years learning halacha and other areas of Torah are quite capable of expressing an opinion on this matter, though there should always be sensitivity.

Back to the topic:

Again, Zumba is “sensual” in nature. You simply cannot argue around that and it is therefore not justifiable for anyone no matter who they are or are not in front of. For other types of womaen’s dances/exercises, too, there’s no reason to use perverted motions and/or non Jewish music.

There’s no reason you can’t do fast dances, to fast Jewish music, that exercise your entire body in a dignified manner befitting a bas melech without resorting to disgusting animalistic imports from the land known for this particular form of pritzus.

I did not see anyone discouraging exercise for either gender, and that would be a mistaken notion if anyone did. But find a way to exercise that fits with kol kevuda bas melech penima, not to mention simple kavod haAdam and don’t resort to the many impurities from the street.

I’m curious how many defenders of this disgusting practice would feel if they heard the Queen of England takes Zumba lessons. Would they not think it’s at least tacky? Why is a Bas Melech not given *at least* that much chashivus?

Not my place to comment on Zumba per se, as it is geared for women. But I can see the draw it has. Be it for excercise or self-expression / release, it works wonders. True, any sort of aerobic excercise will give you the same results, but the key is motivation, and to stay focused on an excercise regiment takes real commitment and motivation.

Zumba’s motivation speaks to an emotion that gets motivated with little effort, hence the huge following.

Madison Ave knows it, now 13th Ave knows it too. And what better way to disguise the emotion by calling it “excercise”. Who could find fault with that?

Funniest of all? I have chassidishe neighbors who are avid Zumba dancers, who go to classes in their turban, housecoats, and # 70s. If they only knew to whose “tune” they were dancing to.

The Yezer Horo outdid himself this time. Hard to believe how many ways he can package the same product, and keep finding customers.

“shouldnt be on anyones radar screen.”

yeah, thats while she was sitting at the Shabbos table. But when she puts on her turban, housecoat and # 70s.. watch out!

HaKatan: For your first point, sorry, but the Rambam disagrees with you. He said that anything which enhances a marriage is holy and permissible (provided it isn’t against halachah).

As for your second point, I disagree with you. Yes, obviously the intimacy in marriage is private. A Zumba class is not part of that. There is nothing wrong with women dancing together. The fact that it can be used within a marriage does not mean the thing itself should always be private.

I would point out that a good exercise workout probably does MORE for tznius, because it enables women OR men to get rid of their excess energy and channel it into a healthy activity.