Zumba=Not Tzanuah?

Because some people have nothing better to do with their lives than constantly worry about what other people are “doing wrong.”

Zumba is fun and no one should dare take that away from us under tznius pretenses! I think people have problems with the type of moves is not refined but whateva..

people consider it x tznius because,yeah the moves,u wudnt dance like that by a wedding,would you?and also the music a lot of classes use non-jewish music.however im not against it at all.i think its great excercise and fun when you do it with friends(just dont do the moves that u learn there at home when any male relatives are around)have fun!!

@WIY

“But we all wonder why tragedy after tragedy hits us. No need to mention all the Gedolim passing away on an almost weekly basis. The amount of personal tragedy going on in families is unprecedented. The cholim tehillim lists keep growing. The shidduchim crisis keeps growing, kids going off keeps growing and when you tell people its time to care about Tznius nobody wants to hear it. Lets go do some sgulos or rub some magic lamps or go to some mekubal. That will solve Everything!”

The gedolim that have passed away have all been elderly or very ill.

The cholim list keeps growing because people are living longer and over a longer life you are more liable to get sick..especially towards the end

Kids are going off the derech due to the rigidness of certain derachim and the abuse/hypocrisy that goes on in every community that calls themselves frum.

I will however agree with you that people are always looking for quick fixes and magic tricks.

But to blame skirt lengths or dance classes for every thing affecting klal yisrael is both ignorant and dangerous

Is tznius something that is important? Yes it is, but it is not the end all be all to yiddishkeit. Nor is it a geder to “keep boys away” Let me clue you in, most boys who find themselves in a position to talk to the opposite gender would do so even if they were in the “BY Girl” uniform

A girl that respects herself and has decent self esteem is less likely to get involved in promiscuity. Seems to me that can be accomplished by a loving and nutruing enviroment, rather than some kanoim running around with rulers measuring skirt lengths.

WIY, I too was in BP today and I saw hundreds of frum people dressed entirely appropriately. And ive seen enough girls dressed tznius with boyfriends. Maybe the lesson in all the tragedies is to be more in how we treat our fellow man.

You know, Skiaddict, just because someone writes something in a book doesn’t mean its actually true. Especially when the thing he’s writing would require some kind of nevuah or ruach hakodesh.

I think if you watched a group of heimishe(really frum) girls do it once, you would never be able to do it. It looks pathetic!!. They bought someone down to a camp once as an activity before it was popular and it was soooo sad looking at tzniusdige girls moving in such an unrefined/boorish/provacative manner.

WIY is right.

Clever, it sounds like you are what the Torah is refering to when it says that if you treat the Tzoros as “Happenstance” then all the klolos and the toichecha will come on us. You seem to have a perfect natural cause for all the tzoros we are having.

WIY and Yatzmich- What are you saying? that the reason for all the problems in todays Jewish society is because girls are slipping in their tznius? Because that’s not true.You say that if a girl has a boyfriend it’s because she dresses provocatively. So it’s not at all the guys problem?? Please!?!?? Why are you not holding the guys accountable??

Maybe you are right in saying that Hashem is sending us a message. But I don’t think you are in a position to diagnose the problem. I feel like everyone blames the women for Klal Yisroels problems. What happened to “Bzchus nashim tzidkanios nigalu avoseinu,,,,v’asidin l’higael” We are the reason Moshiach will come. So please don’t label us women as the ‘problem’.

cinderella,

Chas V’sholom. I’m not saying that tznius is the cause of all our problems. I just didn’t like clever’s atitude toward our tzoros. He seems to have a “natural” explanation for all these things, and that’s wrong.

WIY’s point is that, in a certain way, tznius protects girls from behaving a certain way. Once you break that barrier, the ride down is much easier. Much like a bochur in a hat & jacket, or even just yeshivisha dress would think twice about doing certain things or going in to certain places.

The point is, Tznius is a serious problem, and Zumba is just a step in the wrong direction, almost like a bridge between a tzniusdike girl and untzniusdik behavior.

Its a lot easier for a man to blame all of todays problems on women who are not dressed appropriately. This way they dont have to do any self introspection. Do they come to davening on time? Do they refrain from talking during davening? Do they daven with kavanah or do they have one eye on the siddur and one on a sefer? Do they keep to their sedarim or do they take an inordinate number of breaks? Do they drive down the street in a manner that makes you wonder if you are walking alongside the Indianapolis speedway? Why think about those and other important things when it is simple to blame it all on someone else. Since day one, when Adam used Chava as an excuse, men have been blaming women.

I was on 18th avenue today and the vast majority of Jewish women in the street were dressed appropriately, I suppose had I gone looking for the exception, I might have found it, but unlike some men, I dont go looking for it.

Skiaddict: I am not here to give an opinion rather to give you the source I think you wanted pg 382 oz vahder levusha.

Cinderella

Please read this.

Rav Elyashiv -As The Girls Go, So Goes The Generation

After Moshe warned Paroh about Makas Arbeh, Paroh says (Bo 10:11), “Lichu Na HaGvarim V’Ivdu Es Hashem”, let the men folk go and serve Hashem, while the women and children remain behind. Rav Elyashiv says (Divrei Agada) that Paroh knew that if the women remain tied into the culture of Mitzrayim, the men can do all the avodah they want. As soon as they come back they will follow the women, and all will be lost.

He brings a Medrash (Bereishis Rabba 17:7) that drives home the point. The Medrash speaks of a childless couple who were both very pious people. They decided that since they were not producing any servants of Hashem, it is best that they divorce and each marry someone else, hopefully producing children. The man married a wicked lady and he himself became a Rasha. The woman married a wicked man but he became a tzaddik.

There was conference of Rabbonim after the Russian revolution, says Rav Elyashiv, where there was a proposal raised to create a curriculum for girls education. Many Rabbonim protested based on the words of Chazal who say not to teach your daughters torah. Rav Eliezer Rabinowitz from Minsk stood up and asked, how can you teach torah to someone who wants to convert if he is not yet Jewish? The obvious answer is that unless you teach him he cannot start becoming Jewish. Similarly with the girls. When there were vibrant Jewish homes they did not need to learn torah but times had changed and without torah they had no chance, and they would drag the boys down as well.

It is clear from here that the girls lead the way. However, don’t forget them because the future of our wonderful sons hang in the balance. What exactly they should be learning is a subject of great debate, and obviously the goal is Yiras Shamayim and not lomdus. Because when they come back from shteiging in Yeshiva there needs to be a special girl waiting for them or else… The girls are the hope and future of Klal Yisroel.

From Revach.net

This is the reason why girls have to be so careful with Tznius in dress speech and action.

Wiy: I give you a standing ovation!!!!

Imaofthree – the moves

Women are a BIG deal. Tznius is a BIG deal. I think that’s all WIY’s been trying to say.

If we women could only manage to take that to heart and embrace the huge achrayus and responsibility we hold with being endowed with the mitzvah of tznius rather than jumping on people who try to point it out to us, I do believe this world would be a better place.

i dont understand this. every person so far who has posted in favor of this zumba thingy (i have no clue what it is) has repeatedly said “ya, i understand that its not tznius and its probably not so good or refined BUT WHATEVER, I LIKE IT SO ILL KEEP DOING IT” people get a grip; we’re not talking about a favor flavor of ice cream. for the same price i can replace the word zumba with pig meat. dont you see how krum this is??!

I suggest that women only do exercises that have a clear mesorah in Yiddishkeit. Sarah Imaeinu for sure did not play tennis or basketball, take zumba or spin classes, go swimming, do aerobics or jumping jacks or other goyish who-knows-what.

She lived to 127 years old just by doing what a proper Jewish woman needs to do. She cooked and cleaned and was a helpmate to her husband. What Jewish woman needs more than that?

“I suggest that women only do exercises that have a clear mesorah in Yiddishkeit.”

O_O

what…just…what?!

btw im really not seeing a problem. if its a womens only class…who cares what they do?

GAW

“It has nothing to do with Tznius”

Are you saying that there’s no likely connection between tragedy in the world and the decline in Tznius?

Yes. The gemorah says tragedy comes to the world only due to Am Haratzus. Are you arguing with the Gemorah?

soliek –

That’s the thing with tznius – although it is in place partly because of men, there is a whole “self” aspect in its own right. Women don’t have to be tznius just so they don’t provoke men, they have to be tznius because that’s what the essence of a woman is and it’s through tznius that a Jewish woman can become the bas melech she is. It shouldn’t matter whether or not men are around; if zumba makes you move your body in ways that aren’t tznius you should think twice about doing it. It’s that simple.

Shrek –

walking/running is not untznius

a number of other exercise machines are also not untznius

There are other types of dance that are also not untznius but can still break a sweat

I’d like to add that it’s very possible that not all zumba dances are untznius. It probably depends on the instructor. But I think as a general rule, *especially* if it’s a non-Jewish class, there will be some less-than-tznius moves there.

It’s all sensitivities in the end, for each woman on her own level, but it bothers me when people want to deny that those sensitivities should even exist whatsoever. For some people, zumba may be a step up on their tznius ladder, but that doesn’t mean that it in essence must be perfect and ideal.

ZK:

No one ever said that you can do what you want. We still have a Torah & the Ribbono Shel Olam. A specific point was mentioned regarding tragedies, and this is what the Gemorah has to say (BB 8a).

??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????

Would you mind please informing me of the “calling” that is relevant here? The CC did not say all the world’s problems are caused by Lashon Hara, did he?

Aside from the Halachic requirements, these such a concept of a proper state of mind. People lump that under the word “Tznius”, which causes mixed reactions. But no one can deny that having a proper state of mind is a requirement in Judaism. So as long as the Halachic requirements are met (an all-girls class), then the issue with Zumba (or any other activity) depends on the state of mind of every person. If your state of mind is “this isn’t proper but I’ll do it anyway because I enjoy it”, then it’s bad. If you’re honestly just enjoying the class and the exercise and only think that there may be an issue when other people mention it, then there’s no reason not to take the class. It’s not something which is inherently Assur. It’s something that every person has to realize for themselves if it’s Tznius or not. And that answer should be different for different people.

We’ve all seen the sources that say that a lack of Tznius causes much Tzaros. Or causes Hashem to withdraw His protection from our homes/lives. I just can’t remember them. Anyone?

There is a simple solution. Not being Tzanua means flaunting yourself, which brings Ayin Hara, Chas V’Shalom. This is what Rav Falk says in his book.

Not that lack of Tznius causes all of the world’s problems.

mytake

It’s not mine, chalila. It’s from the holy Chafetz Chaim ??”?. Written in ‘Kidush Levana Osyos’.