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The Ramban, when explaining the “forgotten” Mitsvot of the Rambam, does not say that there is a Mitsvah to conquer E”Y Today.
In that paragraph, the Ramban uses the expression of conquering 11 times. BUT in the last third of that paragraph, he changes his language to say that even today there is a Mitsvah on each individual to inherit it and live there. IMHO, he is working with the 3 oaths. He leaves out “conquering” and says “laReshet” (which may include hard work), and he says “col echad” and not the tsibbur.
Patur Aval Assur- Please! saying it is ya’hareg va’al yaavor means he holds of them! You cannot read it in the way you are saying.
PAA,
To answer you point, I agree. What’s the big debate about.
I love the video from a few years ago where an Indian man asks the NK people what are protesting. The NK guy can’t really answer what he wants (end of video). See YWN link below.
Mdg, ???? means conquer.here are some proofs:
?????? ?”?-?”?
“?????????????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ???????????…
?????????????? ??? ??????? ???????????? ????? ???? ????? ????????…”
??”?, ???? ?”?:
?”? ???????: ???????.
???? ?”?:
?”? ??????? ?? ????: ??????? ???? ???????, ??? “?????? ??”, ????? ??????? ??, ??? ??? -?? ????? ??????? ??.
????? ??? ?”? ???? ?”?:
?”? ???????: ??????? ???????, ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??, ???? ?????? ???????, ??? ????? ??????.
????? ??? ?”? ???? ?”?:
?”? ?????: ??????? ?????. ????? ??”? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ??????.
???”?, ???? ?”?:
?”? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??: ?? ????, ?? ???? ??? ???, ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???, ??? ????? ????? ?’. ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???????? ??, ????? ?? ???? ?’. ??? ??????? ??????? (?????? ?”? ?’) ????? ?????? ???? ?????, ?????? ???? ????, ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ????, ???? ???????? ????? ???, ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???. ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ????, “???? ???? ?? ????” (????? ?’ ?’). ??? ??”? ????, “??????? ?? ????”, ??????? ???? ???????, ?? “?????? ??”, ????? ??????? ??, ??? ??? – ?? ????? ??????? ??, ??? ??????? ??? ?????.
???”?, ???????? ???? ?????? ?????”? ???? ????? ???:
????? ??? ??? ???? ??? (????”?) ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????”?:
??????:
?”? ??????? ?? ????: ???? ????? ????? ????, ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ????, ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????, ?? ???? ??????? ??????.
Ramban holds that there are two mitzvot: a mitva on Am Yisrael to conquer the Land and a mitzva on the individual to live in it. This si shown by the following:
???? ????”? (????????? ???? ?????? ??
“?[????] ?? ??? ??????? ????? ???? (???? ?”? ?”?): ‘????? ????’. ??? ???? ???? ???? (?? ?? ?”?): ‘??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????, ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ????’…
…??????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????. ??? ???? ??????? ?? [????] ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ?????. ???????? ??????? ????????.
??????? ‘????? ????? ?????’ ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??????… ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??????”.
????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??.
“????? ??? ?? ????? ???????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????, ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???… ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ??. ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????”.
In any case, no one has brought a refutation to my points that
1. The deal is off because the goyim violated their part of the bargain (see my citation from the Shulchan Aruch)
2. The goyim gave us permission so it’s not rebellion (Rav Meir Simcha) and
3. Hashem has called (Rav Soloveihcik)
No the UN gave permission from 6000 miles away the Arab population that lived there opposed it if u got permission how come there was a war in 1948?
Avi K- “The deal is off Because the Goyim Violated Their part of the bargain”
1) Didnt Mitzrayim oppress Jews? If so according to your logic why were Shevet Ephraim punished?
2) The Medrash Eicha says clearly that the Romans were violated their part of the oaths but it also says that Bar Kochva was punished for violating the oaths.
3)The Rambam in Iggeres Teiman is writing to Jews in Teiman who are undergoing “violent persecution” at that time but still warns them not to violate the oaths.
4) Maharal clearly says that even in life threatening situation not to violate the oaths.
“The Goyim Gave Permission us so it’s not Rebellion (Rav Meir Simch)”
1) The Ramban in Maamar Hageula says that the reason more Jews didnt go to E’y bzman Coresh was because they didnt know about the Nevuah that they were supposed to go up so they thought it was a violation of the oaths. Obviously we see that even with permission (real permission) from goyim it is still a violation of the shevuos.
2) Rav yonosan Eybashitz and the Yefas To’har both say explicitly that even with permission is a violation of the shevuos
3) The only source for this is maybe the Avnie Nezer..But 1) The minchas Elazar said that this Avnei Nezer go against everything the Avnei Nezer said publically so it may be a forgery. 2) Why would we Pasken like the Avnie nezer against the Maharal, Yefas Toah, Rav Yonosan Eybashtz et al
4) There was no permission from the Goyim!peacefully means without resistance and fighting. There was a war! many Jews were killed that is not peacful. Also, what the UN says doesnt make it permission. By that standard you must agree with all the anti-israel stuff the UN says today. By any means, there is no comparison to Coresh where there was no fighting.
Just for the record for whoever posted the neturei karta video. The Satmar rebbe who was extemely anti zionist was also against the neturei karta.
@bp yidd: The Muslims had no “sovereignty” over Palestine. It was in British hands (or Allied hands). Those goyim gave their word to the Jews.
In response to people claiming that secular Israeli’s are “real” apikorsim: That is a mistake. Most of them are ANUSIM or at the very most shogegim. Most of them believe in God anyway. They just have been brainwashed from youth. Some just don’t believe they have to keep all the added Rabbinic laws. I know many people, including religious Jews, who believe the same about many Rabbinic laws on different levels. Also, those who start doing teshuvah, do try to keep the Torah to the best of their knowledge and ability.
Most importantly, a major factor in distancing those people from Torah is all the fighting, hate, and backward thinking among the religious (dati) Jews. I wouldn’t want to be “Orthodox” either if I were them.
Shalom,
????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ? ???????
@DaasYochid. Some of them may be a halachic apikores or mumar in various ritual laws, but they are still our brothers who should be judged favorably and brought closer to Torah through love.
Patur Aval Assur– Yes he does say it is Yahareg vaal yaavor for us “?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???”
Also, your diyuk in the Maharal about him calling it Gezeros makes no sense. He is using the word Gezeirah like when we say “chazal were gozer” it still means there is an Issur. This is just like where the Maharal in Erchin says that tzaraas comes onto people who separate themselves from the community therefore the torah was GOZER on him that he has to separate himself from the community. Is that also a gezeirah not a halacha? When chazal were gozer not to take medicine on shabbos because we will come to do Tochen is that also a gezeirah not halacha?
I don’t know about being dan l’kaf z’chus, but definitely agree about bringing closer to Torah with love when possible.
In my humble opinion this entire debate is irrelevant and not realistic.
Let’s acknowledge a few basic points.
1)We (Klal yisrael) are still in Galus.
2) Eretz Yisrael. Our original ancestral land retains its status, regardless of which government is in charge.
3) It is much preferred (For any Jew) to have a government run by other Jews, rather than arabs or other national or ethnic groups.
All other debates about Geula, legitimacy of the present form of government or other issues pertaining to the State of Israel are irrelevant.
Your point three isn’t correct.
“Your point three isn’t correct.”
It has been proven correct EMPIRICALLY.
You doubt that statement? Try living as a Jew anywhere else in the Middle East today. Or anywhere on the continent of Europe in the early 1940s.
The situation in the Middle East today is a direct result of the “Jewish” run government. Compare the safety of Jews living under the Jewish run government today versus the safety of Jews living in other countries today with Jewish communities under a non-Jewish government.
More Jews die today for being Jewish under the rule of the “Jewish” government than die today for being Jewish under the rule of non-Jewish governments.
@Lior. Perhaps, it was better to be ruled by Muslims in the past, but today that is changing. The question nowadays may still be: Is it better to be under more physical duress under Muslim rule yet have more religious freedom and protection from sin (like stringent laws of modesty), or live in a secular Israeli society which is more damaging because it is a spiritual galut which affects our neshama? It could be that secular Jews will not keep laws of Nidda and Shabbos even under Muslim rule anyway, and, therefore, a Jewish government is better.
Yossi,
1. How does Ramban say that when he holds that conquering EY is a mitzva in every generation? As for the other sources you cited, I wil have to see exactly what they say. In any case, why should we pasken like the Minchat Eliezer against the Avnei Nezer, Rav Meir Simcha, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Kook and others?
2. Here is what the midrash says regarding Bar Kochba:
????? ??? ???? ???? ? ???? ? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?????:
“????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? (??? ?????? ??????? – ?? ????? ??? ?????) ??? ??? ????? (????? ?’)
??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????????” ??? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????. ??? ?? ?”? ????? ??. (???? ????)
??? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???”? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? (???????) ???? ????? (?????). ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????????. ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??”? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??’ ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ??? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?’ ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ?”? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? (????? ?”?) ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??????.
He was arrogant and wanted to go it alone without Hashem.However, Rabbi Akiva supported him so apparently he wasn’t concerned about the oaths.
3. The persecution in Teiman was only a local persecution.
Patur, as I posted, we do not hold that theSatan acts as Gd’s opponent. That is another religion. The Satan is a shaliach of Hashem. Maybe his job was to incite the Arabs so that we would get more land.
&Charlie hall that’s because of Zionism before the 1940s Jews and Arabs co existed with each other
Today the question about a Muslim govt being good is a moot point . Because a Muslim govt is not even good fur Muslims!
Bp, are you kidding? Read “In Ishmael’s House” by Sir Martin Gilbert and “From Time Immemorial” by Joan Peters.At best the Jews were relegated to humiliations as “dhimmi” and at worst were murdered on the whim of some potentate.
Patur Aval Assur–
1) as you well know that is a straw man right there. You were saying that within the Maharal you can read that it means Gezeirah not a halacha. I brought you proof that when the maharal uses the word Gezeirah like he does in this context it for sure does NOT mean that it is not halacha. He saying the Hashem was Gozer this issur and if we do not keep it, r’l, what could happen.
2) Not sure I quite understand the Rav Shlomo Kluger. Why was shevet Ephraim punished then? Anyway this is only talking about the Shevua of Dechikas haketz which was the only one in Mitzraim. But by us, (i.e our galus), we have an additional shevua of shelo yaaleh K’choma.
3) I have seen what R’ Kasher wrote. To be respectful lets leave it at that they are shver.
‘The situation in the Middle East today is a direct result of the “Jewish” run government. ‘
‘before the 1940s Jews and Arabs co existed with each other’
Did you get no secular education in your yeshivot? While things weren’t as bad as in Christian Europe, things were often bad. A sampling:
1066: Pogrom in Granada, Spain, then under Arab rule. Thousands die.
1465: Pogrom in Fez, Morocco. 11 Jews survive.
1517: Pogrom in Chevron. All Jews dead or fled. Jews would not return until 1533 once the Ottomans had gotten things under control and an Ottoman census in the 1520s confirms that there were no Jews in Chevron then.
1840: Damascus blood libel.
1917: Pogroms by Ottoman governot Djemal Pasha against Jews.
All this and more — I could fill up a page — predates even the Balfour Declaration, much less any ‘Jewish run government’.
DY: Pashtus is we hold like the Ra’avad on that, for several reasons.
Patur, we have the promise of the Geula and that it will come in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). Moreover, the Gra sent his talmidim to EY to pave the way. According to “Kol HaTor” of Rabbi Hillel Rivlin he held that Moshiach ben Yosef’s job is kibbutz galuyot and building the material side of EY and that in the time just before Mashiach the sin of the spies would attach itself to many Tora Jews. Rav Teichtal in “Em HaBanim Semeicha” seconds him. Those who cannot see the miracles of Israel’s birth and progression are truly blind.
Famously, R Chaim didn’t hold like you.
CharlieHall: No one doubts that we’ve been suffering in galus since 70 C.E. And that it’s been relatively bad for the Jews wherever they live for the past close to 2,000 years. Nevertheless, as you’ve admitted we lived in far greater harmony under Arab rule than under the rule of any other country that hosted many Jews. Especially under the cruelty of the Church in Christian Europe. For every incident or event of Arab cruelty to the Jews we can name 100 worse incidents under the Christians in Europe. Not to mention that it was the Europeans who destroyed the Beis HaMikdash and murdered the Jews in Yerushalayim.
@lior exactly
DY: No. R’ Chaim’s famous line is just explaining the Rambam. There’s no Shittah in there.
Avi K- Don’t try to say that Ch’v the Gra was a zionist. It is clear the the Kol Hator was not written by Rav Hillel Mishkelov. Read Rav Shternbuch’s 10 page thing on it which is printed in the back of one of the volumes of Teshuvos Vhanagos. Much of the “old” kol hator was written in modern hebrew, and in the Hakdamah Shlomo Zalman Rivlin himself says that we do not have the original manuscript. Anyway, the people who descend from the aliya of talmidei hagra are mostly Neturei Kartaniks so its hard to say the Gra held of the ideas in the kol hator.
Avi K- Just looked back at your post and saw your slip up, where you wrote the kol hator by “Hillel rivlin” it seems very apropos and makes a lot of sense.
While it is absolutely correct that things were generally worse for Jews in Christian Europe than under Muslim rule, the idea that live as a Jew under Muslim rule was always rosy or that Zionism was the reason things got bad is simply not consistent with history.
” we lived in far greater harmony under Arab rule than under the rule of any other country that hosted many Jews”
The United States of America is an exception to that statement.
Also, FWIW while the Jewish population of India was never large, Jews were never persecuted in India by either Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims. Not sure why more Jews didn’t move there.
Here we go again. Another thread that has disintegrated into the old Zionism arguments.
Let’s look at the original premise of the thread: why do we have these arguments? There are legitimate Rabbonim on both sides, so why don’t we just say each side should follow its own Rabbonim, and that’s it?
Let’s look at some other well-known machlokisim:
Next week, Bonei Olam is having a Chinese Auction – in Williamsburg! But the Satmar Rebbe held that IVF was NOT allowed, and children born from it could be mamzerim! Why don’t Satmar chassidim protest the Bonei Olam auction?
Many chassidim never accepted R’ Moshe’s heter for regular milk in the US. For them, it’s not chumrah, regular milk is assur! Yet I’ve never seen chassidim arguing strongly against someone accepting the heter and drinking regular milk!
Why is Zionism different? Why don’t people just accept that it is a machlokes, and people should just follow their Rav’s opinion?
Yosi, where did I slip up (unlike you, I capitalized all the proper letters)and how is it apropos?
DaMoshe, for that matter, why isn’t there a heated debate about opening bottles on Shabbat? According to the machmirs the meikals are mechallelei Shabbat d”Oraita.
Just read most of this blog and am awed by the erudition of the posters. As patur aval assur writes: for once, a civil and instructive discussion.
However, to Avi K: opening a bottle is a “doraisa”?? Do you mean a regular beer or mineral water bottle?? That cannot be. Do you mean opening the top and breaking the metal cap? please elucidate because your statement- as said- is incorrect.
Rabbi, see Shmirat Shabbat K’Hilchata 9:17 with footnote 61 that according to some it is tikkun mana as the cap becomes a keli. However, you are correct that some differentiate between plastic and metal caps (they say that the plastic cap was already a cap before being put on whereas a metal cap was not).
Because Zionism affects people’s outlook on countless issues.
Q: Should I rely on a very weak eiruv if necessary to influence people to support the State of Israel?
Q: Should the State utilize leniencies in geirus/adoption/you name it in order to preserve a Jewish majority in the State of Israel?
This has no end.
Avi K- Maybe it wasn’t a slip and you were referring to R’ Hillel Mishkelov as R’ Hillel Rivlin. I thought it was apropos because the person who probably wrote the Kol Hator was Shlomo Zalman Rivlin so it seemed apropos that you had mixed them up. I see now that you did that on purpose. How about responding to the rest of my points? I know you must have run out of “proofs” when all you can manage is a unfunny and feeble attempt to insult my capitalization.
Avi K. wrote ” ???? means conquer.here are some proofs: ….”
Lareshet may mean to conquer, BUT in the context of that comment of the Ramban, it clearly does not. As I mentioned, the Ramban uses Kovesh -conquer – 11 times when talking about the Yishuv haArets. But he drops that expression when talking about today. Instead he uses Lareshet in contradistinction to Kovesh. Furthermore, he say Kol Ehad – i.e. not the Tsibbur.
AFAIK The difference between Nachala and Yerusha is that nachala come from the word nachal. A river flows naturally. OTOH, a yerusha needs work; it’s not automatic. Sometimes that work may include war, but not in this case according to the Ramban.
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