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The Shalosh Shevuot are a halachic non-starter.
1. They are aggadata not halacha. In fact, none of the codes (Mishna Tora, Tur, Shulchan Aruch, Rema) mention them nor do the Rif, the Rosh or the Nossei Keilim.In fact, Ramban (Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “Forgot”) states that there is a Tora mitzva to conquer EY is our time.
2, In his introduction to Sefer Etz Chaim, Rav Chaim Vital writes that they were only for 1,000 years.
3. According to Rav Meir Simcha the San Remo Conference’s vote in favor of a Jewish state obviated teh oaths as it is no longer a rebellion.
4. The goyim violated their oath not to persecute us “too much” on several occasions (the Crusades, the Chmielnitzki massacres, the pogroms, the Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off(Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 236:6).
5. According to Rav Soloveichik (“Kol Dodi Dofek”) the miracles of the War of Independence show that Hashem has called.
@avi k and what about the 10 commandments do not kill do not steal those don’t apply anymore?
@Veyoel Moshe, are you referring to the Iranians who are supported by the NK?
You mean nk which are supported by the Iranians but what does one have to do with another?
paa exactly
Chasidish Rebbes should not be brought as proof. Only poskim
While r solvetchik was a tzadik he was unfortunately blinded by Zionism and how exactly are you defining more or less of a poisek exactly?
Patur thanks for agreeing. My point is that when you say that some say it was an act of Satan – you are referring to a chasidish rebbe although you are hesitant to mention who it was. I think you mean Satmar.
And my point is that Avi K brought some sold proofs against shalosh shvuos based on real sources. The satan made them win is demagoguery
bp, while the satmar rebbe was a tzadik he was unfortunately blinded by anti zionism. He said there is no mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel, maaseh satan etc all things that do not have a basis in halacha.
Best to stick with poskim.
Do you have difficulty seeing a difference between a posek and a chasidish rebbe?
Patur what you say makes sense, however, masah satan is from a chasidish rebbe. Bottom line is that you can not bring any proof by saying it was yad Hashem or from the Satan.
I honestly have no idea how the Satan concept makes sense since the Satan does not work independently. Like everything else in this world, it all comes from Hashem. In Eyov, the Satan could do no more than what Hashem let him do to Eyov. It kind of sounds like kfera to me but I am no posek:-) so who knows…
jewishness – i know it sounds awful, I actually heard two shiurim on this concept on torahanytime when it came up in the parsha with yosef and his brothers. It is so amazing!
Care to Share, Syag? Or are you working on Shesika?
PAA, I see how that statement about the Satan may merely mean that there is no way to say for certain that since it occurred then it must be right.
But in the same vein I do not think that Rav Soloveitchik’s statement must mean that there is proof that it was right. He was emphasizing that Hashem made it happen. It was the Yad Hashem, which is something everyone in Eretz Yisroel sees all the time, such as in the recent fighting.
But the 10 commandments how do you get around that
One of the reasons of the holacaust was the growth of Zionism
jewishness – I actually fell asleep looking for the titles, 🙂
One is by Rabbi Tatz called: “Can Your Free Will Affect Me?”
I think the other one was in Rabbi F. Schachters parsha lecture but I will have to double check that.
Seems to me, at least according to this quote, that his Zionism was more pragmatic than hashkafic or even halachic. What would he say today now that Torah and Jewish life has b”H flourished even for those who are not zionistic?
When Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) was told about the Satanist claim he responded that he was acquainted with the Satan. In any case, to say that the Satan acts without Hashem’s permission and even against His will is a tenet of another religion. Of course, it could be that Hashem wanted to confuse the Satan so he sent him to harden the Arabs’ hearts. Who knows? Maybe He sent the Satan to prevent frum Jews from coming in droves and turning Israel into a Tora state because we are not ready.
As for the machloket between the Aguda and Mizrahi, I heard that both Rav Soloveichiik and Rav Kook compared them to Yosef’s stick and Yehuda’s stick – which will eventually be united. In fact, we see that the National Religious are becoming more frm and yeshivish and the Chareidim are moving out into the general job market.
Religious or not according to the Torah you can’t have a state
“Without the yishuv, Hitler would have killed Judaism.”
Actually, it should say “without the Americans”, Hitler would have killed Judaism (okay, the Brits and the Russians deserve some credit to). While one can (and should) perceive the Allied efforts to defeat Hitler as an example of Hashgacha Pratis, the yishuv did not play a significant role. Indeed, the efforts of the zionists were a major factor, and perhaps the only factor, explaining why the British were anxious to keep Jewish refugees out of Palestine, and in fact, out of any other other place, and one can argue that it was due to the zionists that the expulsion of European Jews (which was Germany’s original plan) became the genocide of European Jews.
Zionists actually prevented Jews from leaving Europe
Israel is a democracy in the middle east. Eretz Yisrael is something else entirely.
Also anyone interested in ‘religious’ Zionism should read the book written by yoel elchanan (I think it’s called ‘dat hatziyonut’ but I’m not sure). He was raised in bnei akiva and then he ‘converted’. It’s an eye-opener and a must read.
why are you not showing my post?
@aperkuma thank you
(I have not read through this thread.)
Avi K:
“…eventually be united. In fact, we see that the National Religious are becoming more frm and yeshivish and the Chareidim are moving out into the general job market.
Getting a job is fully within Orthodox Judaism, and does not signify moving closer towards unity with the Datim Leumi’im.
Also, can I assume that intentionally being less frum
is not part of Dati Le’umi ideology? I hope so.
BP,
1. On the contrary it is a Tora mitzva to have a state (Devarim 17:14 and see He’emek Devar that this includes a democracy).
2. Jews were prevented from leaving Europe by the British and Americans (who refused to ease immigration quots even slightly) as well as rabbanim who told them not to leave.
Randomex, until now the Chareidim have “forgotten” that getting a job is fully within Orthodox Judaism.
Tzviki and Patur, what does a milchemet reshut have o do with this discussion. According to Ramban (Sefer HaMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forogt” there is a mitzva to wage war to conquer EY in our time. According to Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 5:1) any war to save Jews is a milchmet mitzva. Rav Herzog wrote in a letter to Ben-Gurion:
??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????, ??????? ???? ??????? ????? ???
????? ???? ?????? ]??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??
?????? ??????, ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??????, ???? ???????
??????? ????? ???? ???? ????????? ????[
Rav Ovadia (see Yalkut Yosef 128:78) wrote:
????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????, ??? ????? ??????? ??????, ????? ????? ?????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????, ???? ??????? ?’ ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????, ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????
Avi K: the amount of Sheker spread in you post is unbelievable. I will respond to your points
The Shalosh Shevuot are a halachic non-starter.
1. They are aggadata not halacha. In fact, none of the codes (Mishna Tora, Tur, Shulchan Aruch, Rema) mention them nor do the Rif, the Rosh or the Nossei Keilim.In fact, Ramban (Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “Forgot”) states that there is a Tora mitzva to conquer EY is our time.
2, In his introduction to Sefer Etz Chaim, Rav Chaim Vital writes that they were only for 1,000 years.
To be sure not everything Rav CHaim Vital says is Halacha. BUT he does not even say this. Rav Chaim Vital quotes the Zohar in bereishis which is talking about Hashem’s oath to keep us in Galus will only be for 1,000 years (the zohar say after 1000 years is because people did not do teshuva). Not talking about the Shalosh Shevuos.
There are lots of refutations to your last 3 oaths I just dont have time right now.
If you want your refutations to be taken seriously you can’t say I don’t have time now. I don’t have the proofs to argue but there is a lot of evidence that the zionists could have saved alot more people during World War II but didn’t because it wouldn’t advance their goals at the time.
If you refused to go to ye then the zionists refused to help you that was there system and the satmar Rebbe didn’t ask for Zionist help a Zionist came and helped him
Ivory- you obviously did not read anything I wrote where I had plenty of sources backing what I was saying. All I was saying in the last sentence was that the last 3 points AviK made I would go through later.
DaMoshe: Your “facts” are fiction. Nothing in your narrative is accurate.
Lior: Ok, can you tell me what really happened?
Patal Aval Assur– though their are mistakes in that list I am partly responsible for putting that list together which somehow got to Frumteens. Also, look up the Maharil in Netzach Yisroel chapter 24 here it is: ??? ????? ???? ?????[?] ????? ?? ???, ?? ?? ?? ??????? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????, ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ????. ???? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???????? ????, ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???. ??? ????, ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????. ???? ?? ????, ?? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???, ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????. ?? ???? ?? ???, ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ?????. ???? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’, ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????, ??? ????? ??:
He says that what must keep the Shevuos L’halacha even under threat for life (i.e it is Yaahareh vaal yaavor)
I agree that the rashbash says there is a Mitzvah on the individual of Yishuv E’y but he does hold of the issur of Ya’aleh K’choma. The Rambam you quoted shows the Rambam warning us of the terrible consequences that will happen from violating the Shevuos obviously even if he holds they are not Halacha (which is not pashut) still he holds they are a terribe idea.
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