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ROB -“health: quotes from “old residents of jerushalaim” are very suspect. They are not subject to any verification. And- to say that “they had maintained cordial relations before the impending creation of the Jewish state’ is ridiculous.”
The only thing that is suspect – is the Zionist lies! When did you start believing them?!? In your childhood?
My grandparents lived in Palestine during the early 1900 hundreds’ and they confirmed that statement. And when I was learning in EY – I met a Yerushalmi & he told me the same thing! He also said that Jordan had no problem with Jews visiting the Kosel.
ROB, straight from Wikipedia:
Theodor Herzl wrote in his diary (September 3, 1897):
DaasYochid: From what you write, you proved my point. The words you quote are from a diary and it clearly shows that at the actual Congress, no demand for a State was made. Read the actual manifesto. This might have been a distant wish but the Congress and the world did not anticipate an independent state. How could they? “Palestine” was still part of the Ottoman empire and WW1 was still twenty years away. The dissolution of the three empires- ottoman, austria-hungary and russian- did change the face of Europe and the earth. BUt no one could have foreseen this at that time, Arab hostility had little to do with the idea of Zionism itself an much more to do with the influx of Jews fleeing pogroms and having been imbued -by Rabbonim and gedolim!-of the mitzvah of alyah and the re-building of ancient Israel.
As long as jews were servile and did not consist of a threat to them, they were allowed to live in Palestine.The dynamics of the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century, when millions of Jews left Russia for safer havens, changed this. Even without the idea of political Zionism, there would have been a major backlash against the arrival of tens of thousands of jews in then “Palestine”. Zionism per se, had little to do with this. Its idea became the vessel of all the pent-up needs and feelings of Jews in Europe who were persecuted and harassed throughout Russia. And, ironically, it was mainly the religious Rabbonim in Russia who encouraged the alyah movement and the first mass alyah was in 1881 -named bilu,meaning Bais Yaakov Lechu Venelchu- It was only the beginning. The tragedy of that time was that secular Jews stole our idea and it made it theirs. We have been trying even since to bring it back to its rightful source. “lehachzir atoroh lejoshono”
Health: You can keep on repeating it, but that doesn’t make it true. Arabs and Muslims were killing us for 1000 years. Sure, there were times of relative peacefulness. Just like we had times of relative peacefulness with Christian neighbors throughout the centuries. That doesn’t mean that we still weren’t slaughtered and attacked often. We were. Just because one of those short periods of relative peace was Israel in the early 1900s doesn’t mean that it would have lasted, at all. Just like every other time of relative “peacefulness” in history.
OMG — Ask all the Rabbanim how did the peace loving, angelic, friendly, kind, generous, ARABS of Chevron’s massacre of 1929, pogroms of the Galilee in the 1940s, & daily terror attacks during the British Mandate of Palestine become the murdering, stabbing, beheading, evil ARABS of today????
The mufti of Jerusalem was not a changed man because of the Balfour declaration or the doctrines of Zionism — he hated the religion of Hashem that stood in contrast to the emptiness of Mohammed’s religion.
To quote Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky zt”l in 1970 when the Rabbonim were on a plane hijacked by Arab terrorists, ” we do not negotiate with terrorists, this is a Milchamet Mitzvah which began in 1948 and will end with the coming of Mashiach”.
ROB: So they chose a national anthem with no plans towards a state?
Sam 2 – “Health: You can keep on repeating it, but that doesn’t make it true. Arabs and Muslims were killing us for 1000 years. Sure, there were times of relative peacefulness. Just because one of those short periods of relative peace was Israel in the early 1900s doesn’t mean that it would have lasted, at all. Just like every other time of relative “peacefulness” in history.”
You’re right, nothing lasts forever, but at the turn of the last century – Arabs got along with Jews before the Zionists came along! And the Zionists made life much better for Jews. Since ’48, there is no more terror, no more wars!
“Just like we had times of relative peacefulness with Christian neighbors throughout the centuries. That doesn’t mean that we still weren’t slaughtered and attacked often. We were.”
You’re right again. So when are you & your family moving out of the USA? You never know when the Goyim will make a Pogrom here.
Israel is so much safer then the Western world!
Health @ Co., did you ever read “1984”? Apparently you have formed a frum Ministry of Truth. If you google “Haj Amin al-Husseini biography” you will find that according to the Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica he was born in 5657. Other sources give his year of birth as no earlier than 5753. With the outbreak of WW1 he became an officer in the Ottoman army. I seriously doubt if he had any contact at all with Jews during his childhood and youth.
As for memories of general relations between Jews and Arabs, there is also a Yiddish song song that praises Romania, which was virulently anti-Semitic and whose governments repeatedly violated treaties they themselves had signed regarding treatment of Jewish citizens. Of course, just as there were individual Romanians who worked for Jews and thus had to be friendly so too there were individual Arabs who worked for Jews. Moreover, as I previously posted, Emir Faisal supported the Zionist movement and even signed a formal agreement with Chaim Weizman. Two weeks prior to signing the agreement, Faisal stated:
“The two main branches of the Semitic family, Arabs and Jews, understand one another, and I hope that as a result of interchange of ideas at the Peace Conference, which will be guided by ideals of self-determination and nationality, each nation will make definite progress towards the realization of its aspirations. Arabs are not jealous of Zionist Jews, and intend to give them fair play and the Zionist Jews have assured the Nationalist Arabs of their intention to see that they too have fair play in their respective areas. Turkish intrigue in Palestine has raised jealousy between the Jewish colonists and the local peasants, but the mutual understanding of the aims of Arabs and Jews will at once clear away the last trace of this former bitterness, which, indeed, had already practically disappeared before the war by the work of the Arab Secret Revolutionary Committee, which in Syria and elsewhere laid the foundation of the Arab military successes of the past two years.”
The areas discussed were detailed in a letter to Felix Frankfurter, President of the Zionist Organisation of America, on 3 March 1919, when Faisal wrote :
“The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper.” (from the Wikipedia article on the Faisal-Weizman agreement, which also contains the text of the agreement).
It stands to reason that Faisal’s followers would have been friendly towards the Jews. However, the Mufti ym”s CHOSE to destroy all hope of peaceful co-existence in order to further his own personal political ambitions. The fault lies not with the Zionists, who were Hashem’s tools as Rav Kook says, but with the Mufti ym”s and Sir Herbert Samuel, who appointed him despite the fact that he finished last behind three Nashashibi candidates (Samuel wanted to maintain a balance between the two clans so he appointed the above rasha as Mufti and Raghib al-Nashashibi as Mayor of Yerushalayim).
This is a very painful thread for me to address.
Formerly, I tried to point out that Zionism is a love of Eretz Yisrael and it’s inseparable complement, it’s People, who are bound to the Torah.
I mentioned the Vilna Gaon, who sent his students to live there and would have done so himself.
That is not an insignificant thing but prophecy.
Each Jew who moves to Israel is bringing the Geulah closer.
If some of these Jews’ actions seem to be delaying the redemption, we cannot understand, but it is HaShem’s will that we be gathered and, if we merit it, the redemption will come, and if we do not merit it, it will still come.
Rather than point out all the bad that secular Zionist Jews have done, which does not include the awful distortion presented here of inciting the Arabs, one should look on the GOOD that has been achieved. A Jew SHOULD be able to live in the Eretz HaKadosh, certainly HaRav Sonnenfeld, the Guardian of Jerusalem, felt so, and encouraged a group that included the nascent Religious Zionists, including HaRav Avraham Yitzhak Kook, to travel thruout the settlements, even in a time of terror attacks. The time has, at long last, come for a return and that return involves taking responsibilty for one another and having our own government and security forces that will be responsible for our safety. It would seem to be self evident after what happened in the mid-20th Century, but just as before that time there were people who opposed, there are still those that oppose.
I can understand the caution some must feel, “Is this ordained by H’? Will I have the means to support my family? Will the influences of a seculkar culture make inroads in my family?” However, we must try to remember, “Baruch hagever yivtach b’H, haya H’ mivtacho.”
Denigrating what others have done to build up the Land and for other Jews, is really not nice, to say the least, and may be more sinful.
I am sure that the great rabbis would not advocate this and people’s miscomprehension of their words only leads to divisions that are unnecesssary.
True, one must keep their vigilance in such enviroments, just as one must protect against those who wield physical knives against us.
Please, don’t say anything if you cannot find something nice to say.
I did attempt to lighten the air here but even that was criticized.
My husband always says that Leftists have no sense of humor, so don’t go acting like a humorless Leftist.
H’ gave us the ability to laugh and to BE HAPPY, let’s try that and to love one another.
If this fails, I would advise that those who support Eretz Yisrael and it’s People, to avoid posting on such threads, as these, in the future. Let those who wish to denigrate Israel have their own private club. It does not deserve the imput of those Jews that cherish our Land and Am Yisrael.
I tried to point out that Zionism is a love of Eretz Yisrael and it’s inseparable complement, it’s People, who are bound to the Torah.
That’s one meaning. Sometimes, though, it refers to the political movement, which is what the vast majority of gedolim were/are against.
You are wrong, and in fact offensive, when you imply that those against the political movement chas v’shalom denigrate Eretz Yisroel.
You are also horrendously mistaken when you refer to The Jewish People as a complement to Eretz Yisroel.
Avi K- ” The fault lies not with the Zionists, who were Hashem’s tools as Rav Kook says, but with the Mufti ym”s and Sir Herbert Samuel, who appointed him despite the fact that he finished last behind three Nashashibi candidates”
From your posts you seem to believe Hashem wanted the Zionists to succeed, now I’ve a question for you. Samuel the Jew, created the antisemitism in Israel – why??? I think this was Hashem telling us he didn’t want the Zionists to succeed!!!
DY, I dispute your statement. Of course, it depends on whom you count as gedolim.
Feivel, Eretz Yisrael is part of Am Yisrael. It is the only place where we can develop our national potential. (Rav Kook at the beginning of “Orot”).
DaasYochid: I am not sure what you are alluding to. I checked the text of the Hatikvah in all its forms. Written in 1878-a time when no one ever imagined that there would be an independent israel-it deals virtually in its entirety with a return to the land and for Jews to be free of oppression.-chofshi meant free of oppression. Very clearly, Zionism was a movement to return to israel but did not, at that time, envision an independent israel.At that time, the Ottoman empire was still whole and no one could envision a totally independent Israel. Indigenous Arabs feared any jewish influx, regardless of its political implications.
Health: do you sometimes read what you write? Herbert Samuel is long gone and israel independent and prosperous. Would that not be a sign that HKBH wants the “zionist entity” to succeed?
ROB, I was going to respond to DY’s comment to me re: immigration, but you said it beautifully.
Health,
As I’ve stated before, war and terror were the norm in Eretz Yisrael long before Zionism came into the picture.
The difference is that today we have a far greater ability – and therefore responsibility – to limit the bloodshed.
And we are CERTAINLY prohibited from exacerbating it, as anti-Zionists do. Even if you truly believe that the Jewish people would have been safer had the State not been established, the fact is that it’s here, and every bit of encouragement that anti-Zionists give to Israel’s enemies contributes to the murder of Jews.
ROB -“Health: do you sometimes read what you write? Herbert Samuel is long gone and israel independent and prosperous. Would that not be a sign that HKBH wants the “zionist entity” to succeed?”
You believe success is dependent on “israel independent and prosperous” and I believe success is in freedom of worship & safety from terror! Isn’t this a sign that Hashem doesn’t want the “zionist entity” to succeed?!?
Dear Rabbi of Berlin,
The original lyrics of Tikvatenu, written by Naphtali Hertz Imber in 1877, did not include “lihyot am chofshi be’aretzeinu…”
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The test was later revised to “lihyot am chofshi” by settlers of Rishon Letzion. HaRav Kook objected to the revision, and advised his followers to sing “lihyot am kodshi” (to live as a holy nation) instead of the secular dream of living as a free nation.
I was referring to the adoption of a national anthem, regardless of the particular lyrics.
Hertzl envisioned it, I don’t know why you would imagine that the Arabs didn’t.
Avi gordon: thank you for the correction! I doubly checked and you are right! I knew that they had changed “hatikvah hanoshana” to “hatikvah bat shnat alpaim” but did not realize the other change! BTW- that re-inforces my argument that it was a poem to return and settle the land rather than establishing an independent state. Most people do not realize that the national anthem is only the first two stanzas of his work and it is only part of a much longer poem. If you read the rest of the poem, one is struck by the deep jewish feeling about our losses in eretz yisroel. Imber was secular but he obviously was steeped in jewish tradition and had deep feeling for the indignities of the golus. Lastly, Rav Kook also wrote a marvelous pom but it did not become the national anthem.
I think that even today, some religious zionist roshei yeshiva sang “lijot am kodesh’. If I am not mistaken, Rav Dovid Lipshitz zz’l, Suvalker rov and Rosh Yeshiva of Y.U. after R”Joshe Ber zz’l , sang it that way. You can check with some of his talmidim.
DaasYochid: because no one else-save Herzl- envisioned it. In that, he was a visionary.
On the contrary, Health. Our enemies can feel that the geula is advancing so they are trying desperately to stop it. In any case, terror is world-wide. Not to mention the fact that in the US someone shoots up a school, mall or workplace every Mon and Thurs. As for freedom of worship, where does it not exist in Israel? In Europe if you want to go to shul you have to register in advance, present ID and go through a check – if you can identify the anonymous building as a shul.
Rabbi, actually Rav Kook wanted the national anthem to be the shir hamaalot we sing on days when we do not say Tachanun.
allusernamestaken – “As I’ve stated before, war and terror were the norm in Eretz Yisrael long before Zionism came into the picture.”
Your statements are not accurate, in fact the’re blatant lies!
Any terror before the Medina was sporadic, Not daily.
“The difference is that today we have a far greater ability – and therefore responsibility – to limit the bloodshed.”
So why don’t they?!? You’re living in your Zionist dreamland. They pulled out of Lebanon, the West Bank & GAZA. How many missiles were shot from GAZA when Israel had it!
They don’t even have the death penalty – for anyone!
Avi K: I rarely say tachanun…….and i rarely say that shir haamalos either……so I am puzzled what makes that shir hamaalos -124-rather than 122 or 125 or certainly 126 better suited to an anthem?
Health: do you know what sporadic means? check out its meaning and you will see that it applies to today also. And I have no idea what the pullout from lebanon and gaza have to do with the need for a jewish homeland, independent and unafraid.
I rarely say tachanun.
Why, how often is yom haatzmaut?
Once again, Zionists unknowingly bring up the Chevron Massacre in 1929 as an attempted “proof for Zionism”, which the savages committed as a direct result of “Religious Zionist” aggression regarding the Kosel, and that aggression was against the wishes of Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld and the Jews who were already in the land.
While on the subject, Jews LOST the ability to daven at the Kosel in 1948, also thanks to Zionist aggression. The Zionists only mention how they captured it in 1967, of course with oceans of Jewish blood spilled on the altar of Zionism, R”L L”A.
Splitting hairs over the original version of the Zionist national anthem would be funny if it weren’t so sad, that this is so important to Zionists.
Last I checked, even the RCA edition of the Siddur still has “Umipnei Chataeinu Galinu MeiArtzeinu”. Unfortunately, Hashem exiled us from E”Y, as even the “Religious Zionists” are aware. But they believe a forgery of “reishis tzemichas geulaseinu” and other nonsense about this idol that is, of course, baseless.
Of course, believing Jews from long before Zionism pray to Hashem that He send Mashiach to redeem us all from this long galus and return us to Eretz Yisrael, the 3rd Bais HaMikdash, etc. That is Judaism, NOT liHavdil, Zionism.
tirtza:
Your definition of Zionism is like defining Jews for J as Jewish. Zionism, in any form, is the heretical (meaning, therefore, anti-Jewish) theology that attempts to “normalize” the Jewish people by turning the Jewish nation is a nationalist nation, Ch”V, like Italy for the Italians, France for the French, et al.
Rav Saadiah Gaon wrote that Hashem gave us the Torah in a midbar, a desert, and NOT in E”Y, specifically so that we should understand that our nationhood is solely (again, that’s only) through the Torah. Not “the people and the land” or any other nationalist “inventions” of that nature. Although there are many mitzvos that depend on being in the land, etc. our nationhood is in the Torah, not the land.
Health, we have the death penalty for Nazi war criminals as well as for treason and certain crimes under military law during wartime.
Rabbi, why do you rarely say Tachanun. Are you a mohel or a davener with one? Tehillim 126 is special because it speaks of our return to EY:
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You can google “Rav Kook on Psalm 126”.
AviK you did not understand my post. I was only referring to the placement of Eretz Yisroel as primary and The Am Yisroel as secondary.
ROB – “Health: do you know what sporadic means? check out its meaning and you will see that it applies to today also.”
From Merriam-webster: “not constant or steady”
In Israel today there is constant Terror!
“And I have no idea what the pullout from lebanon and gaza”
Israel has made the situation there even worse then it was 20 – 30 years ago! They keep on living in their dream world. The policies have caused the death of many Jews. Either give it all to them or get rid of all of them, like Kahane.
Avi K: you wrote that it was the shir hamaalos that we say when not saying tachanun. THat shir hamaalos is 124. You quoted 126.
DaasYochid and Avi K : I daven in a shtiebel where they rarely say tachanun for many reasons Friday, Sunday, Nissan, Cheshvan, sefirah, bris…etc…..and to you, DaasYochid: 🙂
Health: You will find it very difficult to show me that there has been constant attacks every day in every week in every month in every year since the establishment of israel…Hence sporadic is equally apt for Israel now.
I find it comforting that you support Meir Kahana HY’D. he was an ardent Zionist.
ROB – “Health: You will find it very difficult to show me that there has been constant attacks every day in every week in every month in every year since the establishment of israel…Hence sporadic is equally apt for Israel now.”
I was talking about the last few weeks. – “Any terror before the Medina was sporadic, Not daily.” What made you think I was talking from the beginning of the Medina?!?
ROB – “I find it comforting that you support Meir Kahana HY’D. he was an ardent Zionist.”
I was only supporting him in what I posted. His solution was viable for Israel, but not the only one!
feivel: It’s not horrendously mistaken. In fact, it’s a fair reading that the Rambam said that.
It borders on Avodah Zarah.
What did the Rambam say Sam?
That Avrohom and his zera are beloved by Hashem because they serve the needs of Eretz Yisroel?
Think before you respond with your scholarly irrelevant nonsense.
health: a few weeks in the span of close to seventy years is, by definition,sporadic.
ROB – “health: a few weeks in the span of close to seventy years is, by definition,sporadic”
You’re trying to confuse e/o. Let’s go back – you made a comment on my post. No one posted anything that remotely resembles what your saying. No one posted whether from the beginning of the Medina till now, whether Terror is sporadic or constant! Please don’t confuse the posters. I guess you’re used to it – Zionists have confused people for over a hundred years now.
feivel: The Rambam (I think in Hilchos Kiddush HaChodesh but in might be in the Peirush HaMishnayos) explicitly defines “Klal Yisrael” as those Jews living in Eretz Yisrael. He thinks that being in E”Y defines us more as a nation than being descendants of the Avos does. But I’ll let you tell the Rambam that his Shittos are “scholarly irrelevant nonsense”. I’m sure he’ll be happy to hear it from you.
Health: You can’t call a few weeks constant. If it’s daily for a few weeks but then goes away, that qualifies as “sporadic”. Just like every other spike of violence in history.
Interesting statement of the Rambam as to the relative weight of two parameters in defining “Klal Yisroel”.
Which has absolutely nothing at all whatsoever to do with calling The Jewish People a TOFEL to Eretz Yisroel. And Eretz Yisroel the IKAR.
Sam 2 – “Health: You can’t call a few weeks constant. If it’s daily for a few weeks but then goes away, that qualifies as “sporadic”. Just like every other spike of violence in history.”
Now you’re a Novi; how do you know how long the Terror will continue?!?
Zionism is a constant failure, no matter how many believe in this Avodah Zorah!
It’s not avodah zorah. Whether right or wrong, it doesn’t fit into that particular category.
Feivel,
1. That Shir HaMaalot talks about our return to EY. Very Zionist.
2. That is, in fact, Rav Kook’s interpretation of Rambam.
Health,don’t let the facts confuse you. You remind me of the gabbai who could not believe that his father died. Every Shabbat he gave him an aliya and even said “Amen” before and after the reading. When they told the Gerrer rebbe about it he said “Tell him to give his father hagba’ah”.
Correct. It doesn’t fit the technical criteria. But making something other than Hashem your main focus in life. And the determining factor in your major life decisions, looking to it for your protection and salvation, and defending it above all other considerations is in the spirit of and bordering on Avodah Zarah.
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