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joseph: in WW2, when the Germans were on the verge of invading Egypt and were threatening to conquer then Palestine, Jews were very afraid of this happening. Rav Herzog zz’l , Chief rabbi was asked what to do and he replied that the Jews will be safe in Eretz Yisroel because nowhere in Torah and Tench do we find a mention of- G-d forbid- a third churbon. As per our Torah, golus will happen but HKBH will bring us back to our homeland and then we will live there “le-oilam vo-ed”.
So, you see, you may feel safer in “eretz ha-goyim” today but you will never have the promise of HKBH to stay there forever. Eretz Yisroel is our homeland and we have returned never to leave,
wow, a neturei karta wannabe!
rob, you seem to have forgotten that HKB”H kicked us out of Eretz Yisroel.
“you seem to have forgotten that HKB”H kicked us out of Eretz Yisroel. “
Yes, and that same Hashem allowed us to get back in. Hashem controls the world for (what we perceive as) good and bad.
Joseph – It has already been that safe haven for thousands of jews from everywhere the world over for 65 years. Holocaust, Ethiopia, Teiman, Morocco, Algeria, Iran, Syria, Now France, Ukraine etc. Can you admit this or you just going to respond with the evil Zionist canard.
G-d has handed Israel to Jews on a silver platter in a national historical story that is unparalleled for any other nation. Yet you choose to believe that actually G-d just wants you to live the remainder of your life in NY or NJ and raise your family there.
Convince yourself that Israel is scary and frightening even though it is probably safer now than any other time in the History of the Jews. Life here is wonderful and meaningful even with all its problems. There is nowhere else better for Jews.
A “silver platter” doesn’t constitute over 20,000 Jews killed in war and terror. And still counting more each year. And quadruple that for the number of maimed.
joseph: please read my post. This was fully acknowledged. Do note other comments.
Sam 2 – “Health: Yeah. For many years and large chunks of time, Jews lived as more or less happy second-class citizens under the Ottoman Empire. Except for, you know, when every 50 years or so hundreds to thousands of Jews would be kicked out of their homes or massacred or raped or happy things like that.”
You still didn’t answer the question: – I’ll ask it again – for a third time: How many Jews were killed during the time of the Ottoman empire in Palestine and how many Jews were killed since the beginning of the Medina?!?
Joseph, EY is not only a safe haven (Yoel 3,5) but the land Hashem has given us and which is part of us as Rav Kook says at the beginning of “Orot”.
HaKatan, the massacre in Chevron was caused by the fact that the Jewish leadership depended on the Arab notables and the British police instead of accepting the Hagana’s offer of protection as well as the inaction of the latter two groups. The Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini ym”s was virulently anti-Jewish and needed no “provocation” beyond our existence. He later offered his services in implementing the Final Solution and recruited a Bosnian Moslem division for the Waffen SS. A pamphlet he distributed included the quote “The Day of Judgement will come, when the Muslims will crush the Jews completely: And when every tree behind which a Jew hides will say: ‘There is a Jew behind me, Kill him!”. Apparently his services were very valuable tothe Nazisas tey paid him a monthly salary that was twice the ANNUAL salary of a German field marshall.
Health: I have no idea. Per capita, I’d guess the answer was under the Ottomans but I don’t have numbers and can’t prove it.
Health: who cares what happened in the Ottoman Empire hundreds of years ago? Jews lived in Germany-ashkenaz- for a thousand years before the nazis- does that make any difference what happened during the Holocaust? You and our ilk willfully ignore what is happening in the Arab world right now!!! And that has nothing,nothing, to do with Zionism!!
Chaldean X-ians, Yazdis, Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites, Copts, Syrians, Iraquis, Alawites,Palestinians, Afghans..all of them are being killed in big numbers by other Arab tribes-ISIS, Assad, Hamas, Taliban and more…and nothing, nothing has to do with Zionism but with internal Arab strife.And, if they kill their own kin this way,imagine what they would do, chas vecholilo, to jews.
I,for one, do not want my brothers and sisters to endure the same fate.
If the goal is to ensure that our brothers and sisters in Arabia not endure the same fate, it can perhaps be best achieved by them moving to Australia or Canada.
It has become a safe haven for 100x that many and we have no way of knowing what the alternative would have been. The gift was the simply astounding way Israel was given to us. There has been much pain but I am and will always be grateful to Hashem and those that sacrificed so that we all could have the opportunity to live here. As I said I wouldnt want to live anywhere else – and my children (who serve in the army) feel the same way. It is simply wonderful to live here and I cherish every day. today I went back to university (first day since college years) part time to learn tanach – Bar Ilan is an amazing place full of youth, life and learning with Jews of all stripes and colors and ages. Wish you felt the same way but alas …
Who gave the right to sacrifice over 20,000 Jewish lives (and counting) and 100,000 maimed (and counting) to establish sovereignty?
What does that mean who gave the right? The people who live here collectively and individually decided and decide to live here. You are living in some theoretical world. We all decide to live our lives here – and we all feel the pain (more than someone who does not live here can understand
) but so much more joy and spiritual meaning of doing so. You are living passively in the negative. We are living actively in the positive. I know I will not convince you – thats ok. (As my son listens to a sefardi singer sing adon haselichot while he does his math homework). In so many ways, every day, I am grateful. All the best to you.
joseph: who gave the right to all the rabbonim that you hold so dear to sacrifice millions of jews in europe by not advising them to go to then palestine?
RR: Those people have no right to sacrifice 20,000 Jewish lives. Additionally, it was only a subset of those people who made that decision against the will of others.
rob: That’s a canard. Millions of Jews weren’t trying to leave, didn’t ask to leave and those that did ask to leave could not get Visas since the doors elsewhere were closed. Including Palestine.
You’re talking about different times.
ROB:
Why not answer his question instead of asking something else?
Because you can’t. It’s part of your idolatry that Jewish blood is less important than your Eigel of a State. Anyways, your question is not a question, as you’ll see if you read on.
RR:
Not very rational.
It was the Zionists who (among other actions and non-actions) lobbied governments against allowing Jews in to any country because the choice in Zionist terms was either Palestine (which they knew the British did not allow due to Zionist inflammation of the Arabs) or CH”V what ended up happening.
It’s astonishing that Zionists till use the term “safe haven” for the Zionist State.
Besides for the oceans of Jewish blood (and the shmad they did, etc.) that the Zionists sacrificed for this idol, both before and after 1948, the Zionists still need to draft every 18-year old who will go and they also can’t even protect their citizens without telling them to arm themselves 24/7.
You call that a safe haven?
It’s called idolatry, not a safe haven.
joseph: A canard in your eyes. A sad reality in other people’s eyes. The fact is that those leaders , in spite of their greatness, could not know what the future brings and neither can you. G-d forbid but who can say what will happen in France, Great Britain, with their large Moslem minorities? At least, in Eretz Yisroel, we are the baalei batim and, spite of your denials, it was a gift given to us by HKBH and cherished by us. Any other evaluation is close to “kefirah”.
HaKatan: calling the medinah an “idol’ casts a show on your emunah. Are you telling me that the medinah was established without HKBH’ approval? That is very close to “kefirah” and apikorses.
G-d forbid but who can say what will happen in France, Great Britain, with their large Moslem minorities?
G-d forbid but who can say what will happen in Israel with a billion Moslems at their doorstep looking to annihilate it? You think Israel is safer for the Jews than Great Britain? You may think so and G-d forbid be surprised the next mass casualty incident takes place in Israel while the Jews in Great Britain remain safe. You think that the leaders don’t know but YOU know what the future brings?
You don’t want to live with a large Moselem minority? There’s Canada, Australia, the U.S., and other places.
ROB: Was baal peor created with HKB”H’s approval?
DaasYochid: Absolutely. If you believe in the thirteen ikrim, the FIRST ani maamin establishes that. We have “bechira” and we can choose to do or not to do certain things but everything has got to be “approved’ ,kavjohol, by HKBH. Especially matters like the establishment of a state, that has historical significance. That is not just an incident of “bechira” but it has major historical consequences. If you deny that the medinah was established with , at the absolute minimum, HKBH approval, you deny His omnipotence.
Joseph: I do not know the future and neither do any of the leaders that you may follow. Whether i am safer -today- outside of israel is a wrong paradigm. We may live in some danger in Eretz Yisroel but that is the fate that HKBH gave us, living in our homeland and enduring all that comes with it. Not so in Canada or elsewhere. There is no mitzvah and no special ties to Canada. Only Eretz Yiroel has those ties.
ROB, but it could still be an idol.
Sam 2 – “Health: I have no idea. Per capita, I’d guess the answer was under the Ottomans but I don’t have numbers and can’t prove it.”
Read what I wrote: In Palestine! No way it was under the Ottomans.
ROB -“Health: who cares what happened in the Ottoman Empire hundreds of years ago?”
Stop with your Zionist lies!
“The Ottoman Empire:
Date dissolved: November 1, 1922″
My grandparents lived there (Palestine) and they always said how the Jews got along with the Arabs!
ROB:
You are making up things out of thin air.
Hashem allowed other major historical events like, for example, the Holocaust, to happen. His “approval” was, obviously, strictly limited to allowing it to happen for whatever His reasons were. Same with your idol of a State. Of course, Hashem allowed it to happen. Nobody disputes that. But the gedolim were quite clear that He certainly did NOT approve.
(Of course, it is clear as day that Hashem would not approve of such a calamitous force of spiritual and physical destruction of His precious children, and by “Jews”, but that’s besides the point.)
The Brisker Rav, who was there at the time, stated that the State came into being because of the frum Jews who were fooled by the Zionists into davening for the State rather than the true geulah. Had they instead davened for the geulah, Hashem would have given us that instead of, liHavdil, your idol.
The Zionists have no answers for their idolatry and heresy because there simply is no answer.
ROB:
Your “answer” to Joseph would be funny if it weren’t so sad.
You seriously believe that you should live in E”Y despite any dangers that may be present there only because it is Eretz Yisrael, even though it is indisputable that Hashem kicked us out and Mashiach has not yet returned us?
Regardless, there is a mitzvah to live in whatever place will allow you to best serve Hashem. “VaChai BaHem”, last I checked, is part of the Torah. As are the rest of the mitzvos of the Torah. Even Rabbi Herschel Schachter stated in a recent Yom HaAtzamos address that if one’s own/family’s spirituality would be better outside of E”Y then one should certainly remain outside of E”Y.
The sheer absurdity, of elevating a precept like ahavas haAretz (or, more accurately and lihavdil, Zionism) into the greatest obligation superseding all else including one’s physical and spiritual life, is sad to see.
As the Brisker Rav noted, the State they have managed to achieve is the GREATEST triumph of the Satan since the Cheit HaEigel. He was obviously not joking and just obviously quite aware of things like the destruction of both Battei Mikdash, Shabsai Tzvi, etc. The founding of the State of Israel tops them all as the Satan’s greatest feat. Your post is but a small illustration of this.
Health: your rhetorical question was: “how many jews were killed during the ottoman empire”. The Ottoman empire was founded over six hundred years ago and ended about a hundred years ago. Seems to me to be rather ancient history…..with absolutely no relevance to today…the twenty first century of the common era.
DaasYochid: calling the medinah an “idol” is actually preposterous. It is a lot more than “baal pe-or’. It has stupendous historical consequences and I firmly believe that it was “min hashomayim” and it was to the benefit of klal ysroel.
HaKatan: You will have to excuse me while my incredulity shows to your convoluted and preposterous statements. So,all the Torah learning in Israel today is “maaseh soton”? All the growth of religious jews in israel is “maaseh soton”? Excuse me while shake my head.
And, do you think that the Brisker Rov zz’l cannot be wrong? BTW- you do know the maamar chazal that anyone living outside of israel is like he has no G-d? is that a figment of my imagination? You can try to use hyperbole as much as you want, it will not change the facts of Eretz Yisroel being prosperous and being Jewish.
ROB, I wasn’t arguing whether it is or isn’t an idol, I was merely demonstrating the flaw in your argument that since HKB”H allowed it to happen, it must not be.
ROB – “Health: your rhetorical question was: “how many jews were killed during the ottoman empire”. The Ottoman empire was founded over six hundred years ago and ended about a hundred years ago. Seems to me to be rather ancient history…..with absolutely no relevance to today…the twenty first century of the common era.”
My point was before the Zionists came to power the Jews got along with the Arabs! This was even until the 1920’s. All the Zionists did was destroy that relationship! Now we have thousands dead and thousands maimed.
You guys don’t seriously think you’re gonna get anywhere with this argument, do you? What are the odds of anybody actually changing their minds here?
Welcome to the www. People here do this all the time.
1. There is a mitzva to live in EY and a mitzva to conquer EY. Obviously the latter pushes off pikuach nefesh of an individual. Of course, if someone will have to live on tzedaka here because he does not have a transferable skill he is temporarily exempt as that is the opposite of yishuv EY (as Rav Schachter said).
2, The contention that Jews lived in harmony with Arabs before the advent of Zionism is as nonsensical as the “nostalgic” Yiddish song about Romania. I direcxt you to the Jewish Virtual Library’s article “Treatment of Jews in the Arab World”.
3. When Rav Tzvi Yehuda was told of the “maaseh Satan” contention he replied that he was not acquainted with the Satan. BTW, I heard an opposite contention – from a Chareidi rabbi. He said that using anti-religious Jews to bring us back may have been Hashem’s way to trick the Satan into not trying (we do not believe in two reshuyot c”v – in the end the Satan cannot act without Hashem’s permission as we see in Sefer Iyov but it is better if he is quiet) to make trouble.
4. Why do certain people continue to denigrate EY and even refer to it as “Arabia”?
Chevra,
The State of Israel is already in existence. HaRav Shteinman, one of the Gedolei Hador, encourages Chareidim to participate in the elections. If more frum Americans would make aliyah, we would be able to create a religious voting majority in Eretz Yisrael. According to the demographics of the frum population in EY, it appears that this will happen within the next 15-20 years.
Avi K – “The contention that Jews lived in harmony with Arabs before the advent of Zionism is as nonsensical as the “nostalgic” Yiddish song about Romania.”
Stop with the Zionist brainwashing! I posted many times – Halacha – Eisav hates Yaakov. What I wrote many times – that they got along with the Arabs in Palestine before Zionism planted it’s evil routes there. Zionism is Not the answer to this Halacha!
Health: Your timeline is right, your cause and effect are wrong. Jews got along “okay” with Arabs before the 19th century (and by “okay” we mean living at the whims of dictators as second-class citizens with the potential to lose all of their possessions, their homes, or even their lives any day). But Zionism was not the cause of the change of that. Arab nationalism changed things much more than Zionism did. It came about earlier and there was a significant uptick in attacks against Jews and outright massacres long before 19th century Zionism existed.
Sam: Jews have, at best, been treated as second class citizens virtually anywhere Jews have lived at least as long as we have been exiled since the destruction in our current golus. That is the point of golus, which still continues and will continue until Moshiach comes. It helps us remember we need Hashem to send Moshiach. The medina is not Moshiach and the medina certainly did not stop Jews from being treated badly. Not even in Israel. (65+ years of war and terror is not a first class or first world living arrangement.)
So we are “okay” with being treated as second class citizens so long as we can at least practice our Torah life even if it need be under the radar by trying not to rub shoulders too much with our non-Jewish neighbors. Better that than to poke the bear and be angry that it bites us. We lived far far better under Arab rule, both pre-Islamic and post-Islamic, than we did under European rule, both pre-Christian and post-Christian. And that was generally true for the past 2,000+ years until the advent of political zionism advocating (and then implementing) “Jewish” sovereignty over Palestine.
Sure there were exceptions both ways. Yes, there were isolated pograms in Arab countries. But peace was generally the rule for periods of hundreds of years. And 20,000+ Jewish deaths in Israeli war and terror victims since 1947 (and not even counting the pre-’47 Jewish victims) plus six digit numbers of maimed Jews in that same period, does not even remotely equate to any period of us living under Ottoman rule (or pre-Ottoman Arab rule) for any similar period of years. Both in Palestine itself as well as in other Ottoman and Arabic countries.
to health , Joseph and HaKatan: You all act as if history is static and what was in effect yesterday is in effect today. That is nonsensical. Even admitting that the Zionist arrival into Palestine at the beginning of the twentieth century-which I do not- aggravated the relation with the Arabs, it has absolutely no relevance to today. Neither does what happened in the Ottoman empire over the centuries or anywhere else for that matter. What is relevant now is today’s murderous Arab -and Moslem- regimes,from Assad, ISIS, Shiites, Iran , Taliban and others….who will murder, persecute and chase out everyone who his not of their persuasion. If- G-d forbid- Israel cease to be independent, there will be murder mayhem that will make any intifada look like baby’ play. The picture of exodus of hundreds of thousands of Arabs fleeing their own brethren would be duplicated tenfold with Jews fleeing. It would be -G-d forbid!!- another Holocaust. If you cannot understand that, there is no arguing with you.It has nothing, nothing!-to do with historical Zionism.
rob, none of my above comments addressed post-facto what should or shouldn’t be done today as a result of the current setup. My comments were in the nature of a historical discussion and the result those historical activities have had on what we are experiencing today.
I can tell you that we should prevent mamzeirus from happening; I can tell you what caused a certain historical case of mamzeirus to have occurred; but I don’t know if I can tell you what to do about a mamzer that has already been born.
The gemora talks about mamzeirum that were talmidei chachomim. So we should treat them with respect. It isn’t their fault but rather their parents fault. But they are still a mamzer.
joseph: I have to check your previous comments but clearly, others, like health and HaKatan, are advocating dismantling the medinah. If you do not espouse that view, then you are in the camp of a great many chareidim in israel, primarily the Agudah voters, that may have problems with the historical narrative but today, espouse fully the medinah and its institutions.
Sam 2 – “But Zionism was not the cause of the change of that. Arab nationalism changed things much more than Zionism did. It came about earlier and there was a significant uptick in attacks against Jews and outright massacres long before 19th century Zionism existed.”
My point was about Palestine. There was No Arab nationalism there. This changed because of Zionism & the antisemitic British. And all the reformed Jews (including living in the USA) think this is the life! That’s why most Freiyeh Yidden want to move OUT of Israel.
The Agudah doesn’t espouse the medina. They work within the system and medina institutions as they exist – because they exist and are the reality, even though they don’t like it. Even Brisk and Satmar, which does not work with the institutions of the medina and does not vote and does not even accept legally entitled educational funding, acknowledges that the medina exists because that is the reality.
The Jews also accepted and worked within the reality that Agrippa was King, Vespasian was the Roman Caesar and Titus was the General of the Roman legions during the last period prior to the destruction, even though surely they didn’t like it; they still had to pay homage to Rome.
ROB – “If- G-d forbid- Israel cease to be independent, there will be murder mayhem that will make any intifada look like baby’ play. The picture of exodus of hundreds of thousands of Arabs fleeing their own brethren would be duplicated tenfold with Jews fleeing. It would be -G-d forbid!!- another Holocaust.”
Who says? You? Now you’re trying scare tactics!!
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