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Avi K – There is no basis to having a Jewish government, until the arrival of Moshiach. Give it back to the Turks! This will save Jewish lives, inspite of your (& others) Zionist propaganda!
Avi Gordon:- Indeed I am IY’H going to go to Israel for 4 days as per your smart advice, and one liner is simply wrong; Maybe 4 days isn’t long, but if every Israel supporter would go for 4 days, or even just for 2 days like de Blasio, it all adds up & makes a wonderful dent in supporting Israel.
Health, the Ramban is the basis. We are REQUIRED to have a Jewish government. Do you really think that Erdogan would be better for the Jews?
Avi K – “Health, the Ramban is the basis. We are REQUIRED to have a Jewish government.”
We don’t Paskin like the RAMBAN!
“Do you really think that Erdogan would be better for the Jews”
Until the Israelis did something to the Turkish ship, they had a relationship!
Where were more Jews killed last week – Israel or Turkey?!?
Health: More Jews were killed in Israel than in Lebanon last week. Should we move there?
“Where were more Jews killed last week – Israel or Turkey?!? “
Where were more Jews born last week- Israel or Turkey?
Where was more Torah learned last week – Israel or Turkey?
OTOH
Where are Jews more afraid to be openly Jewish – Israel or Turkey?
Which gov’t is islamist and getting more islamist – Israel or Turkey?
Health: i suggest you look up current events before your irrational comments. Erdogan has been hostile to israel for over a decade now and has nothing to do with the”ship”. Secondly, your other question is stupid. There are virtually no jews in Turkey-that should tell you something- and there are-kein jirbu- over six millionJews in Israel.
Lastly, all of you anti-zionists are living in a fantasy world. Whether jews lived better next to Arabs in centuries past is totally irrelevant. Right now, if- G-d forbid- Arabs rule israel , you would see wholesale slaughter and panic flight. Do give a look at our neighbour Syria and Iraq- with its savagery agaisnt their own brothers and unspeakable terror against anyone who was not a Sunni/Shiite. Stop living in the seventtewnth century and look around you!
Where are Jews more afraid to be openly Jewish – Israel or Turkey?
Israel.
Which gov’t is islamist and getting more islamist – Israel or Turkey?
Which government is militantly secular – Israel or Turkey?
There are virtually no jews in Turkey
There have been Jews in Turkey since, at least, the 5th century B.C.E., including tens of thousands of Jews openly living there today as Jews with public shuls. And Turkey has served for thousands of years as a haven from Christian European persecution and expulsion of Jews.
The rate of Jews dying in Antarctica is very low.
Sam – “Health: More Jews were killed in Israel than in Lebanon last week. Should we move there?”
Since you’re a YU boy, you can’t discuss Zionism with you! Are there any Jews in Lebanon? And yes there are Jews in Turkey.
The funniest thing is you Zionists never read any of my posts. I always wrote that Turkey should takeover Israel, with guarantees from other countries for Jewish safety!
The funniest thing is you Zionists never read any of my posts
No, the funniest thing is that you wrote that. I’m waiting to see who asks you for a source, or a definition of terms.
Probably breaks a few CR rules but I’m thinking it’s worth it.
ROB – “Lastly, all of you anti-zionists are living in a fantasy world. Stop living in the seventtewnth century and look around you”
Actually you Zionists are living in a Fantasy world! If the Zionists wouldn’t have done a Masseh Soton, Moshiach would have been here by now, especially after the Holocaust. Why do you think Moshiach isn’t here yet?
Joseph: your comments are ridiculous and totally false. “Tens of thousands of jews living in Turkey today”?? Do you live in the real world? There is a small amount of jews living in turkey and they have been bombed on a number of time- in their shul by the way!!! -look it up!-
and to say that one is more afraid to be a jew in israel than in turkey is so nasty, false and shows how much you rely on lies to make a point.
Health: guarantees about safety from……..France? Spain? Great Britain? the US? as if those nations who rely on these promises have fared well…. like the X-ians in lebanon -once upon a time protected by france….or how about the X-ians in Iraq..once upon a time protected by great britain…and, of course, the greatest guarantor of all…the US…well just ask the Vietnamese, the Iraquis, the Kurds…and many others…
You are espousing a fantasy that would endanger all of klal yisroel.
Yes, tens of thousands of Jews live in Turkey today, rob. And need I remind you that Jews in Israel are attacked more frequently than Jews in Turkey? How many years has it been since the Turkish bombings and how many years was it before that the previous one to that occurred. Yet in Israel it is now a daily occurrence and even in “quiet” times attacks against Jews in Israel occur virtually every year. Israel experiences more anti-Jewish violence than virtually anywhere else in the world Jews live.
Did you know that almost 10,000 Jews also live in Iran? Even they experience less anti-Jewish violence than Jews in Israel.
joseph: according to wikipedia, 17400 jews live in turkey today-ninety five percent in istanbul.
the jews have been attacked numerous times in their shuls by the way.
and lastly- over 50 000 iranianin jews have left Iran. Ask them why.
rabbitofberlin:
Joseph: your comments are ridiculous and totally false. “Tens of thousands of jews living in Turkey today”?? Do you live in the real world? There is a small amount of jews living in turkey
In truth numerous sources including Wikipedia are in almost exact agreement that there are 17,200 Jews currently living in Turkey.
Health: I have never once claimed/admitted to being from YU, though you have accused me of it before. And why does that mean you can’t talk about Zionism. There are plenty of anti-Zionists in YU.
Sam, anti-Zionists in YU? Are they the Neteurei Karta types, the Norman Finkelstein types or the J-Street types?
…being from YU, though you have accused me of it before.
That’s something you consider an accusation?
DY: It’s clearly something he does 🙂
Joseph: There are a few hard-line Yeshivish types (not NK, but definitely those who walk out during the Tefillah LeShalom HaMedinah). There are also a few of the J Street types, but those are all in the college instead of the Yeshiva anyway.
ROB – “Health: guarantees about safety from……..France? Spain? Great Britain? the US? as if those nations who rely on these promises have fared well..”
I live in the US & I think also in those other countries are also safer than Israel!
“like the X-ians in lebanon -once upon a time protected by france”
You forgot how Israel abandoned the X-ians in Southern Lebanon for No reason. (SLA) They did Hizbollah a great favor.
“You are espousing a fantasy that would endanger all of klal yisroel”
You & the Zionists are putting Klal Yisroel in great danger! Take a look at the events recently going on in Israel.
Health: If you were the PM, what would you do? Be honest. What would you do, and how would it keep people safe?
SAM 2 -“Health: If you were the PM, what would you do?”
I have 2 posts on that topic. You can post over there or you can comment over here!
Health,
1. WE do pasken like Ramban. So there!
[Mason-Communist-Jew]), which presented freemasonry, communism and Judaism as evil.
His relations with Israel went sour with Operation Cast Lead (during which he conveniently forgot his adamant refusal to recognize the Armenian genocide).
3. Actually there are two mashiachs, Mashiach ben Yoser and Mashiach ben David. Rabbi Hillel Rivlin, in “Kol HaTor”, quotes his rebbe the Gra as saying that the job of the former is kibbutz galuyot and the material building of EY. Rav Kook held that he was Herzl (or perhaps the Zionist movement in general – in his hesped for Herzl he is not explicit).
About Zionists being the root of all our woes:
A friend told me that he once asked a Satmar bachur who killed Gedalia ben Achikom. The boy replied, “The Tziyoinim.” He informed the boy that there were no Zionists around 2400 years ago. to which the boy replied, “All Reshu’im are Tziyoinim.”
There you have the Satmar Shittah: All troubles are caused by Reshu’im/Tziyoinim.
And, of course the main thing is to absolve all of us of personal responsibility. It is always “their fault.”
147: Make sure to pray on Har HaBayis.
It is a singular opportunity.
Tsk! Tsk! The Vina Gaon and his students such nasty Zionists.
Ooops! Typo Vilna Gaon.
Maybe the Vina Gaon also was one, the founder of Carmel Wineries. 😉
History of the Jews under Muslim rule
From Wikipedia
In 1834, in Safed, Ottoman Syria, local Muslim Arabs carried out a massacre of the Jewish population of the city in the Safed Plunder.
In 1840, the Jews of Damascus were falsely accused of having murdered a Christian monk and his Muslim servant and of having used their blood to bake Passover bread. A Jewish barber was tortured until he “confessed”; two other Jews who were arrested died under torture, while a third converted to Islam to save his life.
Throughout the 1860s, the Jews of Libya were subjected to what Gilbert calls punitive taxation. In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fez in Morocco. In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis, and an Arab mob looted Jewish homes and stores, and burned synagogues, on Jerba Island. In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco; elsewhere in Morocco, Jews were attacked and killed in the streets in broad daylight. In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania.
In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam. However, as it became known that the converts continued to practice Judaism in secret and because the treasury suffered from the loss of jizya collected from the Jews, in 1661 they were allowed to revert to Judaism, but were still required to wear a distinctive patch on their clothing.
In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls. It was only by forcible conversion that a massacre was averted. There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867. In 1839, the Allahdad incident, the Jews of Mashhad, Iran, now known as the Mashhadi Jews, were coerced into converting to Islam.
Confined to city quarters, the Bukharan Jews were denied basic rights and many were forced to convert to Islam. They had to wear black and yellow dress to distinguish themselves from the Muslims.
Under the Zaydi rule, discriminatory laws became more severe against the Yemenite Jews, which culminated in their eventual exile, in what later became known as the Exile of Mawza. They were considered to be impure, and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim’s food. They were obligated to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first. They could not build houses higher than a Muslim’s or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself. In such situations he had the option of fleeing or seeking intervention by a merciful Muslim passerby.
I bet this is all the fault of the “Tziyoinim.”
Avi K -“Health, 1. WE do pasken like Ramban. So there!”
Name me one Achrone that says so!
“2. Erdogan has a record on anti-Semitism”
All Goyim hate Yidden. Tell me – which country are Jews stabbed every day – Israel or Turkey?!?
health: you are entitled to your fantasy world, such as that the “tsyionim” prevented Moshiach to come and did “maaase sotton”. So, the hated “tsyonim” are more powerful than-chas vecholilo-HKBH? The ‘maase soton” is succesful in building a prosperous country, and that is “maase soton”? What a “krum” and illogical logic!
and don’t feel so comfortable here in the US- that is what jews aid for a hundred and fifty years in germany until……
and don’t feel so comfortable in Israel – that is what Jews did for many years until…
Tirtza:
That’s not funny. Living in E”Y has nothing to do with the numerous sins of Zionism.
ROB:
Why do you spout such ridiculous kefirah in his name? Of course the Zionists are not more powerful than G-d. By your “logic”, the Nazi leader was more powerful, too. CH”V. Hashem, for His reasons, simply allowed them to do what they did and continues to allow the Zionists to do what they do.
The Brisker Rav noted that the reason the State came into being is that Torah-observant Jews made the grave error of praying for this. He said to the Chazon Ish as well that he fears the State will unfortunately be with us ad beas goel, for similar reasons (for the frum joining forces with them).
As to the “prosperous country”, while some Jews in Israel have been incredibly successful in many matters, that has nothing to do with the absolute prohibition of Zionism. It also speaks nothing of what Israelis themselves call “the matzav”. These savages (whom the Zionists had no problem in riling up) have made Israelis afraid to leave their houses even for a simcha. Yet presumably intelligent people, yourself included, still hold on to their fantasy of Zionism just as Eliyahu HaNavi found that only 600 people did not bow to the Baal idol in his times.
It is absurd to compare the US to Germany. For one, the Zionists already have their State so their policies pertaining to “rak biDam tihye lanu haAretz” are less of a threat to world Jewry, Hashem yishmor. As well, we have a mesorah from the great Torah leaders in Europe that the last station for Torah before the geulah will be America.
Please, if you are a believing Jew, just daven for the true geulah BB”A.
Sam2:
You mentioned in another thread that Rabbi Herschel Schachter is your Rebbi. You also defend YU from any possible wrong. So it would seem that you attended YU. But anything is possible…
joseph: actually, you are correct. We can never b comfortable in Eretz yisroel because the world wants to destroy us. However, at least, I recognize that it was “min hashomayim” that we came back to our eternal homeland and it will be up to us to make sure we deserve to prosper!
The Medinas Yisroel is a holy institution sanctioned by many holy respected men. The governments are to blame not the Medina itself. Look into history. The holy King Chizkiyahu was afraid of Shevna because Shevna had a huge yeshiva much larger than the national yeshiva of Chizkiyahu. Yet Shevna, although Rosh Sanhedrin, was badly mistaken in thinking he could have peace with Sancherev. The anti-Zionists think that we can have peace with the Arabs if not for the State of Israel. Bad news stupid Jews. WE already tried that. It does not work. They intrinsically hate us. The bochurim at Chevron were not zionists. They hate Jews period. We must pray for the Medina to go on. We should also pray for the people of Israel to wake up to Torah and Yiddishkeit. May Moshiach Tzidkeinu come very soon and put us all back on the right path.
“There you have the Satmar Shittah: All troubles are caused by Reshu’im/Tziyoinim.”
What if a Satmar guy became a Rasha. Could he become a Satmar Tzioni?
Health,
1. Rav Kook, Rav Tzvi Yehuda,Rav Avraham Shapira, Rav Shaul Yisrael.
2. Why are you so eager to denigrate EY?
3. Some like us. Some even risked their lives to save Jews. Erdogan is even worse than an ordinary anti-Semite. He not only has no reason to hate us but Israel has been good for Turkey. Moreover, Erdogan also has delusions of becoming a caliph and restoring the Ottoman Empire.
HaKatan: I never said R’ Schachter was my Rebbe. I just quote him a lot. And I don’t defend everything YU does. Just lots of misconceptions about it.
HaKatan: I, and other religious Zionists have a consistent belief: EVERYTHING, everything comes from HKBH. So, the tragedy of the Holocaust was allowed by HKBH, why we cannot fathom. But, at the same time, HKBH also allowed the establishment of the medinah and it is not-repeat,not- “maaseh soton.
You and your supporters,however, are the ones who have a shittah that borders on “kefirah”. In your view, bad things, like the Holocaust, are from HKBH. but, the medinah is “maaseh soton” Well ,in my book, that is close to denying the omnipotence o HKBH.
Avi K – “Health, 1. Rav Kook, Rav Tzvi Yehuda,Rav Avraham Shapira, Rav Shaul Yisrael.”
Those are not early Achronim!
“2. Why are you so eager to denigrate EY?”
It’s not Eretz Yisroel, but Israel!
“3. Moreover, Erdogan also has delusions of becoming a caliph and restoring the Ottoman Empire.”
This would be great! How many Jews were killed during the time of the Ottoman empire and how many Jews were killed since the beginning of the Medina?!?
theprof1:
As has been corrected on these boards numerous times, the Chevron massacre occurred, actually, BECAUSE OF Zionism. See the other threads. Rav Baruch Kaplan, who was in that Yeshiva at the time testified that he would often take walks out to the reputed location of Avraham Avinu’s tree and nobody ever told him that it was unsafe to do so.
As well, the savages did not touch the sefardi Jews living in Chevron because they knew that those JEws were NOT Zionists. The Yeshiva students, who also were not Zionists, were Ashkenazi and therefore the Arabs mistook them for Zionists.
The Jews then and there did, in fact, get along with the Arabs and it was the Zionists who ruined that.
This would be great! How many Jews were killed during the time of the Ottoman empire and how many Jews were killed since the beginning of the Medina?!?
So now we know the real source for Health’s Shittah. He just doesn’t know any history.
I read these comments and to be honest I am dumbfounded. I think one could defend anti-zionist views al pi shitot of gedolim but the complete absence of reality in these comments are astounding. I live in E”Y and wouldnt live anywhere else. Though I dont mind visiting the US for simchas I only feel at home here where not everything is about the biggest car, house, nicest clothing etc. E”Y is a wonderful wonderful place like nowhere else in the world. I travel a lot and never feel comfortable wearing a kippah even in western europe. I have been to turkey many times and though I have met nice people there – I would never, never feel comfortable under muslim state – where are you guys coming from? I remember seeing in a kiosk in the airport a whole section of antisemetic literature on the protocols, nazism, etc. Get a grip here. I am never comfortable until I get back to Israel. And I know all the “yes buts” about Israel. Still it is the BEST place in the world to live, raise children, and ensure the continuance of the Jewish People, while providing a safe haven of last resort to those who havent yet made or dont plan to make (or cant make for economic reasons) the decision to live here.
People here have the shortest memories. It is terrible what is going on but guess what we lived through it (and worse) before and this too will pass. Meanwhile I live my life as normal, work, daven, learn, take kids to extracurricular activities, exercise in the park. You guys are missing out. You only go around (in this life) once.
“Safe haven of last resort”? Meanwhile it is the least safe place where Jews live. More anti-Semitic violence and killings occur there than anywhere else Jews live. You can’t be confident that if there’s G-d forbid a future mass killing of Jews that it will not occur in Israel while the Jews elsewhere are safe. Jews in Tel Aviv aren’t safer from a nuke than Jews in Los Angeles and Jews in Haifa aren’t safer from a potential invading murderous army than Jews in Toronto.
Sam 2-“So now we know the real source for Health’s Shittah. He just doesn’t know any history.”
Actually you & the Zionists have changed the history to benefit them. My grandparents lived in Palestine and even went to the Kosel. They got along fine with the Arabs.
I ask again – How many Jews were killed during the time of the Ottoman empire in Palestine and how many Jews were killed since the beginning of the Medina?!?
joseph: your comments show your absolute lack of logic and your surreal world. The jews in Germany spoke exactly the same way. So did the jews of Poland ,Hungary, Czechoslovakia in in the early part of the past century…yet……..so spare us your certitudes about history and the future…..
HaKatan: You and your ilk not only live in the past but purposely ignore everything that is going on in today’s world. Regardless of whether you think that the jews and the Arabs lived in such an idyllic world once pon a time, today, they are all murderous regimes and persecute everyone who is not a Moslem. And that has nothing to do with Zionism. Just ask the Yazdis, the X-ians in Iraq,the Kurds, the Bahai, .the various populations in Afghanistan,Syria, etc….and, of course, the three thousand people who got murdered on /11…All this has nothing to do with Zionism…And if ,chas vecholiloh, Israel would be in Arab hands, the jews would not have escaped that fate….
rob: I’m making absolutely no predictions of the future comparitive safety of Israel versus elsewhere. I am simply refuting the farbissine tziyonim who come here spouting that Israel is the “safe haven of last resort”; which is a direct quote from an earlier comment above. They are the ones coming here to spout where it will be safer for Jews in the future. It is the Zionist Israelis who are imitating the prewar German Jews who were very comfortable and saying they were safe and sound where they were and need not worry. And not only with no basis, but in fact with events going in the complete opposite direction of their purported claims. We see Jews in Israel being subjected to more violence and killing than Jews anywhere else in the world Jews live in significant numbers. And this has been the case since the day the State has been founded through today. So to claim that Israel is a future “safe haven of last resort” is foolhardy. There is absolutely no evidence or reason think that the State is a safer place to live than for Jews to live in the U.S., Canada or Australia. Au contraire.
Health: Yeah. For many years and large chunks of time, Jews lived as more or less happy second-class citizens under the Ottoman Empire. Except for, you know, when every 50 years or so hundreds to thousands of Jews would be kicked out of their homes or massacred or raped or happy things like that.
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