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I heard that the religious Zionists announced that this war [of 1967] was necessary and obligatory according to Torah [in order to save the Jewish people from danger]
The flames soon became noticeable and awakened the entire household in great panic; everyone soon realized that everything was on fire, but due to their confusion, panic and sorrow, the members of the family could not properly decide how to save their property. In order to avoid suspicion the wicked guest, who had caused the fire, pretended to wake up in great panic and rushed to the aid of the householder, who noticed that the guest was able to calmly do a good job to save more furniture and household objects than the householder himself.
The following morning, when the householder went to the synagogue with a heavy and bitter spirit, he told his friends about the terrible calamity that had befallen him. He explained that he was now left impoverished and destitute, and that he had no idea where to look for a new home and livelihood. While telling the story he mentioned the importance of the commandment of welcoming guests, because the guest he had invited into his home had helped save what little could be rescued from the fire in his home. The victim of the arsonist was asked by his friends to identify the guest. He described him, and they immediately recognized him as a very cruel and wicked man who was renowned for these sorts of deeds.
The lesson of this parable is obvious: through their sins and their deeds the Zionists are the cause of all troubles and sufferings, yet they always come around to brag that they are the saviors when they are actually the arsonists! Those that do not wish to seek the truth fall for the ruse and think that they are saviors. Satan blinds their eyes so that they end up in heresy and atheism, G-d forbid. By analyzing all the activities of the Zionists one can easily discover that their acts are utter destruction and no salvation. It would require a book specifically dedicated to this subject, and I have already written that in this book I do not wish to get into this history, only to shed light on the matter. G-d will guide those who seek the truth.
Didn’t the Satmar Rebbe zt”l also say that there’s no point in relaying his shittah to Zionists?
Anti-zionism when taken to the extreme becomes a new religion in its own right.
As long as the Jews acquiesced to be a minority under Arabic and Islamic rule, there was no problem with Jews moving into Eretz Yisrael. There was no opposition to Jews building up the economy (until the Jews started to boycott Arab labor and businesses, unprovoked). There was no objection to communal autonomy or to Jews living as Jews according to Torah (but then the zionists tried to shove secular western socialism down the Arab Muslim’s throats). We could have has a thriving yishuv, but instead the zionists decided that they wouldn’t be complete unless they had their boots on the Arabs throats. And that’s how we got into the current mess.
STOP IT WITH THESE THREADS. you want to really start this mishugas now? When we need to step up and unite? Are we really so deeply divided that even during hard times we can’t just put our differences aside for 2 seconds to just be together? The world is so backwards!
Mods close this down please!!!!!!! Enough!!
Hey kJ, that’s a very long post, what does it say?
What’s the bottom line?
Is it really? Have we ever lived in peace for more than 50 years?
As the Gemara says countless times, may di’hava, hava; what has happened, already happened.
kj chusid, what bearing does all this have on what we should or should not do today?
Josh31:
Anti-zionism when taken to the extreme becomes a new religion in its own right.
Agreed (although we probably have different definitions of what is “extreme” in this context). But what do you think zionism becomes when taken to the extreme?
DY:
Didn’t the Satmar Rebbe zt”l also say that there’s no point in relaying his shittah to Zionists?
Elah may he’s talking who to us Agudahists, who aren’t beyond hope (yet).
Zionism is a connection to the Jewish People and the Land.
The issue with secular zionism is the weakened connection to G-d, not the positive connection to the People and Land.
Intermarriage is the moment of spiritual death, because this act severs both the connection to the People of Israel and the G-d of Israel.
Many in Europe who went for secular zionism would have otherwise gone to the Baptismal Font followed by intermarriage (R’L).
Facts:
the 1929 Chebron massacre victims were yeshiva bochurim, who weren’t Zionists. Nor was there a state of Israel to “blame” for the Zionism
Reb Yoelish, who told his followers to remain in Satu Mar, eventually escaped. He and his Jewish passengers on the train were ransomed was arranged by Zionists.
Nearly no country during the Shoah welcomed the Jews as a haven. Had the British not restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine, more Jews would have been saved.
If a Christian group were to prevent Jews from davening at a holy site in Washington, DC, the ADL, AIPAC, and US Supreme Court would have condemned such a non-constitutional act.
Even if the poster would be correct to assert that the State of Israel’s existence is the cause of Jewish bloodshed (I guess he’s a navi), we already have a Jewish State, and I am a proud citizen. To whom should we relinquish our citizenship? To the “peace-loving” Abbas, yemach shemo u’zichro?
the 1929 Chebron massacre victims were yeshiva bochurim, who weren’t Zionists.
So?
Nor was there a state of Israel to “blame” for the Zionism
So? The push to make a state was already being made, angering the Arabs.
to assert that the State of Israel’s existence is the cause of Jewish bloodshed (I guess he’s a navi),
The Satmar Rebbe zt”l asserted that, and chacham adif minavi.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-aliyah-a-wise-choice-in-the-nuclear-age
If anybody wants to cheat and copy comments/rants out of the last Zionism debate 🙂
Avi Gordon (and DY):
Actually, the Chevron Massacre occurred as a direct result of Zionism.
Rav Baruch Kaplan, who was learning there at the time (but, B”H, had been away that Shabbos) discussed this:
The “Religious Zionists” incited the Arabs because of the Kosel. They even came up with a play on words, “Shema Yisrael HaKosel Kosleinu HaKosel Echad”. Rabbi Kook was proud of them, too, even after the resulting massacre. Full details are available by searching “Kook Chevron Massacre” (no quotes).
The non-Zionists begged the “Religious Zionists” to stop bothering the Arabs and be grateful that they were able to pray at the Kosel at will (until the Zionists lost that in 1948, which they don’t tell you either).
The rumor spread that Al Aqsa was being threatened (kind of like the news these days), and the savages murdered these Yeshiva men in Chevron as a result. Of note, they did not touch the sefardim in that area whom they knew to be non-Zionist. But the Yeshiva men were Ashkenazic and, therefore, the savages assumed they were Zionists, too.
Rav Sonnenfeld also refused to sign the declaration giving the Kotel to the Arabs. Anyone who thinks that the Arabs were good people and friendly towards Jews should read books like “In Ishmael’s House”. This thread sounds to me like Stockholm syndrome.
All these long posts.
DY. He disnt say his shitah to anyone. Noone actually read that
You are aware, I’m sure, that even great rebbeim can be wrong.
Takha mamashthey could. But the daas torah ther…
In ivrit the saying goes “it’s better to be smart than to be right”
They’re to blame for enraging the arabs even if the rage isntjustified
But they’re only part of the problem and not the root of the problem.
KJ Chusid did not write that, it was cut and pasted from something
One Liner, that nonsense has been rebutted on another thread. So you tell me being that DY did not answer. Was Dreyfus responsible for enraging the anti-Semites by joining the French army? Is someone who wears a black suit and hat responsible for enraging anti-Semites who see him? Does a wife who overcooks dinner responsible if her husband becomes enraged and beats her c”v? Perhaps yeshiva guys are guilty of enraging people by not joining the IDF.
So you tell me being that DY did not answer
Nonsense. I don’t need to answer every case you throw at me; I laid out a very clear way of figuring out when to lay blame and when not to.
Rule #1 is follow the Torah which answers 2 and 4.
The other cases you mentioned are examples of individuals making choices in their own lives. A movement on the hand, can and should be held responsible for the effects and repercussions of their actions on the people the claim to represent.
You know, it’s amazing how Satmar believes that Hashgacha Pratis only applied until 1948. After that, per their view, all the open Nissim that took place in Israel aren’t Hashgacha Pratis – they’re Ma’ase Satan.
I have an uncle that lived in Chevron before 1929 – and his views were quite different from those quoted above. Also, for those who claim that Jews lived so well in Arab countries – why don’t you look into the Damascus blood lible (in the 1800s), or various other “Farhuds” (pogroms)? You have your views, and no contrary facts will change your mind. You can follow your Rav, but don’t denigrate those who follow theirs – including Rav A.Y. Kook ZT”L and his successors.
an Israeli Yid (currently in CHU”L, where it’s not yet Shabbos)
If Dreyfus would have actually commited the crime and claimed his actions were representive of the Jewish people, then yes! He would have been responsible for the anti-Semitic backlash.
Had the houswife deliberately burnt the dinner ( knowing what his reaction would be) and caused her children to be beaten cv, then yes! She would have been partly to blame.
anIsraeliYid:
It might be wiser to learn VaYoel Moshe (and think a little, too) before accusing Satmar of nonsense.
HaKatan: I have read “Vayoel Moshe’ and I do suscribe to anIsraeliYid’s view of the shittah.
Why would someone want to learn VaYoel Moshe? According to the Gra, chassidus is apikorsis! Why would I want to read the works of someone the Gra described as an apikores?
Why do you keep on erroneously insisting that the Gra’s objection to early Chassidim would hold true for later Chassidim?
DaasYochid: Don’t chassidim claim they are following in the derech of the Besht?
I’m taking it back to the other thread.
TIn my humble opinion,this is a hurtful, tachlis-less thread. We are at a crossroads now, where ALL of Klal Yisroel has to have achdus and Ahavas Chinam. The tirade that I read here, makes me truly sad, for the negativity it displays.
No one can presume to know Hashem’s actions. If He allowed Medinas Yisroel to arise and better yet, to FLOURISH, He had a reason for that. Think of all the Torah that has proliferated in the last decades. That would not have been so possible 60 years ago. A little hakoras hatov goes a long way, even if your politics and religious ideology differ from the secular Zionists.
And if things are not to our liking, we have to work on changing them, but from within, not through name-calling and smug criticism. Unless you a) live there b)fought there and c)voted in the elections there, you are sitting in judgment on high perches in Chutz L’Aretz and are not in the trenches.
So enough already with impugning Zionists, religious or otherwise. We have a terrible matzav going on, and we now need to focus on pulling togther as a collective nation, to daven for a yeshuas Hashem b’korov.
“In my humble opinion,this is a hurtful, tachlis-less thread.”
Agreed.
_______
For some Zionism is their A”Z, for others anti-Zionism is their A”Z. There is sechel here, just yelling.
HaKatan – I have, in fact, read significant parts of the Satmar Rav Z”L’s magnum opus, and I definitely do think – which is why I don’t follow Satmar’s shita. If you actually read my response, I’m questioning the Satmar version of the “facts” – i.e., that all was just wonderful for Jews in Arab-ruled lands prior to the arrival of “evil Zionists”, as well as their absolute conviction that the existance of the State of Israel is a Ma’ase Satan, rather than a Chessed from HKB”H.
You should try learning some Sefarim by those who disagreed with the Satmar Rav yourself, even if you continue to follow Satmar – at least you should acknowledge that there is a basis for other views. May I recommend Eim HaBanim Semecha, by Rav Teichtel HY”D, as a starting point? He was an acknoweldged Gadol in pre-war Europe who was killed by the Nazis YM”SH, but his Sefer, written in 1943-44, survived.
an Israeli Yid (currently in CHU”L, where it’s not yet Shabbos)
Rabbi Teichtal wasn’t considered one of the gedolim prewar. He was a rov in a small town. Regarding his sefer, see:
Joseph, what about those gedolim who supported Zionism? The Netziv, Rav Shlomo HaCohen of Vilna (who described a certain anti-Zionist book as heresy), Rav Kook, Rav Meir Simcha and Rav Soloveichik, to name a few.
As for the relations between Jews and Arabs in EY a few observations:
1. After WW1 the Arabs were divided into three factions. Emir Faisal was pro-Zionist and even signed a formal agreement with Chaim Weizman but later became King of Iraq and his brother Abdulla I was given what is now Jordan. and also favored accommodation. Haj Amin al-Husseini ym”s was virulently anti-Jewish and even collaborated in the Holocaust. The Nashishibi clan was in favor of a political compromise with the Zionists. In order to balance the two groups the British made al-Husseini Grand Mufti of Yerushalayim (despite coming in last in the election) and Raghib al-Nashashibi the Mayor. The Husseini and Nashishibi groups eventually fought a bloody civil war.
2. The British knew in advance about the Hebron massacre but not only did nothing but forced Hagana troops who had offered protection to leave the city (they were also rebuffed by the head of the community who trusted the Arab notables).
3. Before the end of the Mandate British secret agents incited Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt to attack the nascent Jewish state with promises that they each would be given territory. This was due to the fact that Britain and France were vying for influence in the Middle East and the agents thought that this would insure that the entire region become a British sphere of influence.
DaMoshe- actually the Satmar rebbe himself said that today’s chassidim have very little to do with the original derech of the baal Shem tov.
Zionism: the root problem Such a theme exactly 1/2 year to the very day from Yom ha’Atazmaut is too outrageous to remain silent and not condemn. Today Medinat Yisrael is exactly 6&3/4 decades to the very day.
I shall IY’H be flying to Israel later this month to show my solidarity to Israel in this time of outrageous Arab violence, and shall be staying across the road from where this shocking attack in Geuloh was perpetrated this past Tuesday.
147: Are you a politician?
Avi K – So what you’re saying that the real antisemites are the British. So why did the Jews want a homeland? They should have fought that Palestine should go back to Turkey?!?
One Liner:- “Lema’an Zion Lo Eshkot” a Possuk from last of 7 Haftoros of comfort:- I doubt a politician would have heard of this Posuk. I am an Oheiv Yisro’el.
oomis:
This is, unfortunately, not the case.
Whatever Hashem did or did not allow to happen and for whatever reasons He had, does not at allow for the distortion of right and wrong.
Zionism is anti-Torah and terribly wrong according to the great Torah sages from the past century and more.
Achdus is a wonderful thing, but it cannot come at the expense of perverting ch”V the Torah. If both can be accomplished at once, (meaning both achdus and keeping the Torah untainted by foreign ideologies antithetical to it) then, of course, that is best.
My point was that unless you’re a politician you won’t really achieve anything by travelling to Israel to show solidarity.
It’s the thought that counts .
Shalom my brothers and sisters in the Diaspora,
I invite you to travel to Eretz Yisrael to show your support. Every yid who comes is most welcome, and will strengthen the spirits of those who live here in Eretz Yisrael.
Of course, you are welcome, even to come for a short time.
I welcome all frum yidden living outside of Eretz Yisrael to contribute to the settlement of Eretz HaKadosh by joining us. By making aliyah to Eretz Yisrael, you will help create a religious majority and be able to make a positive contribution to life in Eretz Yisrael.
Health, that was, in fact, an issue at the start of WW1. Some did support the Turks and others thought that the British would be more amenable to establishing a Jewish state. In the end both tried to stop the Geula by both actions and inactions and both lost their empires.
HaKatan, secular Zionism is indeed anti-Tora and a impossible to sustain. Religious Zionism is, in fact, the political expression of Tora. Thus, Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) objected to the term “religious Zinist” as e considered the two to be identical.
One Liner, one gains a greater identification with EY as well as giving chizuk to those Jews who already live here.
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