Zionism argument

Israel is great. And Israel is terrible.

Israel is, fortunately, only getting greater.

Israel is, unfortunately, only getting more terrible…

G-d is great!

G-d is terrible!

G-d is not getting greater.

G-d is not getting any more terrible.

Therefore, Israel is catching up to G-d.

First of all is we must realize that there is a difference between Eretz Yisruel and Medinas Yisruel so when you hear someone say “Israel is terrible” They mean the “Zionist State of Israel” not “the Holy Land of Israel” If you want to know why it is so terrible visit JewsagainstZionism.com they explain it very nicely.

JewsagainstZionism.com ? Are they also the ones who give hand to our enemies the Palestinians and the Iranians? And therefore are actually under the heading of “rodef’

As Toi said. HaK-L hagadol v’hanorah

But the last line is blasphemy. So did you not get that far?

I read through that entire website. There were no lies that I saw, though some of the source material was definitely questionable (and there may have been some exaggerations that give false implications). It makes most of the legitimate arguments against Zionism that exist, and it does not read as if it’s based on hatred but rather on an honest extreme anti-Zionist stance.

The problem is that it’s fighting an argument that’s already over. There are no pre-WWII Zionists anymore. The question now is whether one supports the current Medinah and how much. So whoever was right about the pre-WWII argument (and denying that major Torah figures supported the foundation of the Medinah is just denying reality), it doesn’t matter. It’s over. All using the term “Zionist” does nowadays is breed hatred about an argument that’s not at all relevant. It’s a meaningless term because the Nationalism-based movement of the 1880s-1940s is over. That’s not what someone who refers to themselves as a “Zionist” today means. So why foist a hate-filled term on someone when the pejorative meaning of the term doesn’t apply to them? (Ironically, what is done in referring to “Zionists” is the same thing that I’ve seen people here claim that anti-Chareidim do to Chareidim.)

Rabbi of Berlin – yenne2- how is israel-only getting more terrible ?please elucidate….

— You’re right. I forgot that the country that is supposed to personalize Torah is forcing it’s lomdim to join the army.

— You’re right. I forgot that the country that is supposed to represent Jews worldwide is beginning to become one of the most anti-religious places Jews live…

— You’re right. I forgot that the country symbolizing everything every Yid stands for is now forcing it’s soldiers — hence [as stated] it’s kollel yungerlaat and yeshiva bochurim — to listen to women’s singing…

And then people wonder why ‘Israel is only getting more terrible…’

Did hashgacha pratis end in 1948? If the State of Israel exists, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei – and the Nissim that have taken place, firstly for it to even have been established, and secondly to have continued to survive and thrive, should teach us all something. As Ma’aminim, we believe that HKB”H rules over all – and it is clearly His will that Israel exist.

That is not to say that there is not significant room for improvement – we all MUST strive to improve the situation in E”Y. However, the way to do that is to engage with the state and general population – not to close ones self off from the greater Israeli society. After all, thevast majority of Israeli society is just as Jewish as the frummest Chareidi – and we have a Chiyuv to show them that “deracheha darkei noam”. Yes, there is room for improvement – but rather than just standing there and yelling “gevaldt” about how bad things are, we should all go out and do what we can to improve it.

I put my money where my mouth is by moving to Israel (with a family) despite the difficulties – after 120 years, I want to be able to say that yes, I did do something other than sit on my rear to improve Artzeinu HaKedosha.

an Israeli Yid

Did hashgacha pratis end in 1948? If the State of Israel exists, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei

Did hashgacha pratis end in 70 CE? If the Eretz Yisroel was destroyed, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei.

Did hashgacha pratis end in 1939? If the holocaust happened, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei.

Vochindik – you are absolutely correct; the two tragedies you mention are clearly the Retzon HaBorei. We have Chazal who give us a reason why HKB”H allowed the Beis HaMikdash to be destroyed, and are still doing our soul searching re: the Churban that took place in Europe. My point is that to dismiss the creation of the State of Israel as a “Ma’ase Satan”, especially when there were clear miricles involved in its creation, is to deny the role of HKB”H in running the world.

an Israeli Yid

Did hashgacha pratis end in 1948? If the State of Israel exists, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei

Did hashgacha pratis end in 70 CE? If the Eretz Yisroel was destroyed, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei.

Did hashgacha pratis end in 1939? If the holocaust happened, it’s obviously only because of the Retzon HaBorei.

They all are/were Ratzon HaBorei. So?

My point, obviously, was that it isn’t necessarily a good thing. In a certain sense the holocaust and the medina are a good thing; we’ll find out how these bad things are really good when Moshiach comes.

As far as Ma’ase Satan, a Ma’ase Satan is also Retzon HaBorei. So both the holocaust and the medina are Ma’ase Satan that is the Retzon HaBorei.

Argument 2 against Zionsim- Most of the government is not religious and some of the government is even anti religious.

Can we change that to Most of the government is anti-religious and some of the government is not religious?

The government of Israel has an agenda to create a secular state in Israel and is prejudiced against Charedim and Frum Jews.

Well summarized. But another point – the world looks towards ISRAEL as an example of worldwide JEWRY. Even though the two things have NO CONNECTION. When the Israeli prime ministers are all charged for corruption, and the Israeli government are self hating, it causes a huge ????? ?? ????.

We should not support such a government.

First statement i fully agree with.

A salient point here is that todays secular Israelis are not the “spiritual heirs” to the original secular zionists. Polls show that there is little in the way of the original zionistic attitude in todays Israeli society as a way of life. As for their antagonism towards a torah way of life, is it any different than many members of the reform movement here in the US? They grew up this way and quite frankly know as much of a torah way of life as lihavdil elef havdalos buddhism, perhaps even less. There are many, many secular israelis, who through exposure to a torah way of life, while not necessarily running to embrace torah and mitzvos (yet) are not antagonistic towards those who are shomrei torah umitzvos. Are there those who would do anything negative to a torah jew, certainly, are they members of the government, certainly is such antagonism unique to Israelis, definitely not. Read some of the statements by those against the hamptons eruv for example to see this hatred and antagonism is not unique to secular israelis. It is common among those who are “secular”.

However, Anti-Zionism as new religion appears to be in full bloom in this CR.

I saw their site. Anyone can select verses from the Bible to prove any thing about the Messianic process.