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There are seem to be a lot of people with very strong opposition to Zionism in the community. I do not understand this. What would have been better without Zionism? The European frei Zionists would have been frei anyway. They just would have been assimilating and intermarrying in golus. I guess, if Sefardim had stayed in their places, less of them would be off the derech.
I think the problem is that the Zionists are the ones basically in charge of the government here in EY and they make laws and other problems against Yiddishkeit. Life can be very difficult because of them.
The problem with Zionism is [insert lengthy screed stolen from frumteens mod here].
I beat Joseph to it!
I have no appetite to regurgitate this issue. If you’re really looking for answers, go to True Torah Jews.
If you google “true torah Jews” the Neuteri Karta website comes up
[Insert typical Mizrachi response to typical frumteens pilfer here]
[Insert more frumteens boilerplate here]
[insert really lefty response here]
[Insert response insulting other person’s gedolim here]
[Insert asinine comment about the other person’s intelligence here which will get toned down by the mods here]
zahavasdad, go to truetorahjews, AKA Netrunah. Very sensible and informative. They even explain how they are different from NK.
Rav Hutner’s Rebbe was Rav Kook.
More of those with such an antagonism towards Zionism should read Eim Habonim Semeichah by Rav Yissachar Teichtal HYD. It’s not a modern orthodox perspective, its not a frei perspective, it is the work of a great, G-d fearing ehrliche Rov.
What would have been better without Zionism? The European frei Zionists would have been frei anyway.
Er. Without zionism there wouldn’t be zionists. Zionism, like all other isms, pulled people. Without the pull you don’t get pulled. Yes, there were many bad winds blowing, but each one was about an ideology. Zionism preceded the other ones, and was the only one cloaked as Jewish.
Without the reform movement, there wouldn’t be an alternative Judaism. Some people would Shmad completely, but most would have stayed as real Jews. Same here.
The Machlokes of whether it is right to campaign to the UN or the Brits to get our land is not really the point. It did seem like it back then, which is why the movement had the backing of some Rabbonim. Many of them realized, after some time, that they were taken for a ride by those whose goal had nothing to do with Yiddishkeit.
Then there is the issue of Merida Ba’umos, which would only apply to the acts of sabotage against the British. I don’t think any Rabbonim really split over that. It is mainly used by those already against them.
After the state was established, most Rabbonim accepted the fact that what was done was done. This is what the Steipler writes in Kraina De’igrassa. Satmar, Eida, and Naturei Karta continued the fight at different degrees.
The fact is that the only Zionists around are those learning in Yeshivos. Those who were fighting against the sweeping movement that claimed many Neshamos don’t have that complaint or threat anymore. I really don’t see the point in keeping alive an old fight. Should we be making protests against the Tzedukim, too?
Why do I get the feeling that this thread isn’t going to a good place?
Sephardim would have intermarried also much more. I have made this point many times as well. Also what you call frei, in many ways the frei’ in EY do more Mitzvos than others. Many keep kosher most of the time, observe some Yomim TOvim, and know Loshon Kodesh. here @ work for example we were short 1 person for Mincha minyan the other day, so I dug someone out that I knew was Jewish but he told me he can’t read Hebrew. This would not have beent the case there. At the least they could be told what page and could daven.
I beleive that those so opposed to Zionism is a power struggle, they would rather have the power.
Also the Ruchnius is much stronger for the average frum person there, here in Golus the Gashmius prevails in all sectors.
not all zionist are “frei” Jews….
Jothar, your very funny!
I think that Question is, not what would have been better without Zionism, rather what good has come out of Zionism?
lolkatz
Rav Kook taught Rav Hutner in his earlier years studying in Eretz Yisrael. As time went on, Rav Hutner distanced himself from Rav Kook and his ideas (including Zionism). An example of this is when Rav Hutner halted the practice of hanging up a picture of Rav Kook in his Succah. He replaced it with a picture of the Chazon Ish in order to show he did not support the Zionism that followers of Rav Kook promoted.
In fact, there are no seforim by Rav Kook in Yeshivas Rabbeinu Chaim Berlin. While Rav Kook was certainly an influence on Rav Hutner as a student, he did not continue these ideals when he became Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Rabbeinu Chaim Berlin.
When someone gives you a gift, Its proper to accept it.
Imagine someone gave you a Sefer Torah , but it was delivered to you by a priest. Would you refuse it because the priest gave it to you?
Now imagine that gift is from Hashem, would you also refuse it no matter who delivered it to you?
“Then there is the issue of Merida Ba’umos, which would only apply to the acts of sabotage against the British.”
Oh yeah? Are the Arabs excluded from the Umos?
Zahavasdad: Bad example. If a Christian writes a Torah you have to burn it.
It all depends on how one DEFINES Zionism.
If one equates Zionism with the radical, totally secular, anti-Torah movements of the Israeli left wing, then certainly Torah Jews should oppose THAT.
However…
If one equates Zionism (as I myself do) with the national,’geographical’, i.e. Eretz Yisrael component of Judaism, which is a very central and integral part of what Yiddishkeit IS, then every Torah Jew, by definition MUST be a Zionist.
You don’t think so? Did you skip last week’s parsha?
Why did HaSh-m tell Avraham Avinu to go to Eretz Yisrael? THAT is Torah Zionism.
Why did HaSh-m take the Jews from Egypt to Eretz Yisrael, and not just free them in Egypt and give them the Torah to study and observe THERE? THAT is Torah Zionism.
Do you say (at least at the end of your seder and at the end of Neilah) “L’shanah Ha’ba B’Yerushalayim” – WHY? THAT is Torah Zionism.
Do you daven EVERY day “l’Yerushalayim Ir’cha, b’rachamim tashuv”? THAT is Torah Zionism.
Do you think that the Neturei Karta pals in Teheran would be hugging them if they knew that those guys say that 3 times a day?!?
Certainly JUST being in Eretz Yisrael without Torah study and observance is NOT what being a Jew is about. But just as certainly, being observant WITHOUT, at the very least, aspiring to live in Eretz Yisrael is also NOT what being a Jew is about.
We don’t cast aside the title of being ‘human beings’ because there are all sorts of horrible people that share that title. Let us not cast off the title of ‘Zionist’ because there are anti-Torah frei Yidden that share THAT title.
I didnt say the christian wrote the torah, he said he gave you the torah, like for example a priest found a torah after the Nazi’s deported the entire town and kept it until after the war. After the war he gave it back to survivors
The torah was Kosher (or was kosher at one time)
I once heard Rabbi Drillman Shlit”a say that Rav Hutner used to say about himself, The Alter built the ershte plotz (bottom floor) and Rav Kook built the tzveite plotz (top floor). Doesn’t sound like a repudiation. He didnt’ say hallel on yom ha’atzma’ut, but he was no NKnik. More like non-zionist than anti-zionist.
For the edification of all…
[Ha-Torah Ha-Mesamachat p. 41]
Ha-Rav S.Z. Auerbach said: If I say to you ‘Maran’ in Yiddish , know that I am referring to Ha-Rav Kook zt”l. I only use the term ‘Der Rov’, Maran, for Ha-Rav Kook.
[Sefer Rabbenu ibid. and the booklet “Or Shlomo” p. 24 and see note 34 where various testimonies to this fact are quoted]
Ha-Rav Auerbach honored Maran Ha-Rav with being the Sandek at the Brit Milah of his eldest son, R’ Shmuel, who today serves as the Rosh Yeshiva of “Maalot Ha-Torah” in Jerusalem.
[The booklet “Or Shlomo” p. 21]
AinOhdMilvado Thank you so much for your informative succinct posts
It is about time we re-examine the title Zionist before hurling it about as an insult.
I write as the proud Mother of a frum officer in the IDF tired of defending my son as someone “off the derech”. I do not expect all klal yisrael to offer wholesale support for the State and many ill founded political irreligious decisions, but I ache when when” zionist” is used as a term of abuse in today’s world. It is used most of all by our enemies, we should be mature enough now not to repeat it along side them. I teach in a university where students use the word ” zionist” along side words like “racist and nazi” Ignorance amongst our enemies is one thing, we can oppose idealogies amongst our own without resorting to abuse. Next time a frum Jew has the honour of davening by the kotel, remember those young men who died to reclaim it back for us and who today defend our precious holy places and people.
Ben-Gurion was known to exclaim, better 1 neturei-kartanik in Yerushalayim than 10 Zionists in Chicago.
jothar- yiddish help- plotz means place. floor=komah in ivrit (just to clarify if this is the word you mean) which is “shtock” in yiddish.
Jothar
It was said that Rav Yisroel Elya Weintraub, a student of Rav Hutner, wrote that Rav Kook was “grabbed by the Sitra Achra.”
I am certainly lower than Rav Kook, Rav Hutner, and Rav Weintraub. But it seems that there was some sort of rift between Rav Kook and his former student.
Most antis overlook the tremendous amount of learning funded by the government. Would a n Arab govt do so? They didn’t have to grant army exemptions to be yeshiva students,stop transportation on Shabbos
the point of zionism was to get rid of anti-semitsm and to do that, the secular jews decided that we should be more like the goyim by making a Jewish homeland. clearly it didnt work. you dont know that if there would be no state then there would be no intermarrige u cant gernalize. if the point of zionism was to become more like the goyim than there would and is intermarrige, and we c that today.
Feif: Let me get this straight. The country that won’t allow intermarriage is responsible for higher intermarriage rates?
Intermarriage exists everywhere it is an evil we have to fight, but zionism cannot be blamed for that alone !
Sure the early zionists were secular and the State was founded by them, but they founded it in Eretz Yisrael, not Uganda or anywhere else, they built it on our ancestral Torah homeland.
There is intermarriage and lack of mitzvot in Israel, but so too all over the world. You cannot take Jews from all over the world, raised in different ways and with different beliefs and wonder why the State is not a bastion of frumkeit. But it is our state, with our people and our land.
How does it feels to daven in Jerusalem, to wake up in EY and see your people and land?
Nothing is perfect, but constantly attacking zionism as we face attack from the rest of the world seems futile and divisive. We have different roles in life, there are plenty of frum Jews in EY who contribute and perform Kiddush Hashem every day of their lives, if you are worried about secular zionists praise and support them, not constantly undermine our homeland and our heritage as children of Abraham by sniping about secular zionism. It provides a wonderful get out clause for those not wanting to contribute to the wider society, a society that provides security, hospitals and public services.
There are many kinds of Zionism, and those that support Torah are the one’s I support. Israel is our homeland and it should be fully in our hands. On a side note, there are enough xtian based countries and islamic countries. One Jewish state the size of Jersey should not be a matter of dissension for us.
Since I see the name Neuteri Karta (not to be confused with the Magna Carta), I will comment that I believe they are a group government plants in the same way government agencies infiltrate outlaw motorcycle gangs with their own “gang”, and in the same way “Occupy whatever” are paid to do what they do.
I cannot believe NK are really Jews who study the Torah. While I can understand a view of not holding to political Israel, it is totally not normal to hang out with achmaddogdinajad and pat him on the back and engage in photo opportunities with him while smiling for the camera.
msseeker: The arabs are umos, but as they are not the memshala, it is not merida.
There was a Pro-Palestianian rally in Washington DC on Shabbos April 20,2002
Neuteri Karta was there
Obviously being at a pro-palestinian rally was more important than shabbos
Ask your LOR.
“Obviously being at a pro-Palestinian rally was more important than shabbos”
NK often shows up at pro Palestinian rallies on shabbos….maybe there is an eruv so they can carry their anti Jewish signs?
Maybe the Arabs know how to make a good chulent?
msseeker, when someone attacked the Kuzarim were they not allowed to fight them off?
Outside of Satmar, NK and the Eida, the mainstream view is what I wrote earlier from the Steipler, that what was done is done. There is no doubt that the word Zion refers to Eretz Yisroel, or the land that has Zion in it (that’s a whole different thread). To be a Zionist, however, usually means, or should mean, to be a follower of, or subscriber to the ideas of, Zionism.
The Zionists were activists who’s only goal was to get a land, like all other nations, and therefore solve the problem of Galus. They weren’t even particular about Eretz Yisroel, but they focused on it in order to gain the sympathies of religious people. Had it simply been a group of pious, or at least believing, Jews, All Rabbonim would have encouraged it.
The fact is that most Rabbonim did see through it, and what it was trying to accomplish. The fact is that they pulled people off the Derech by the droves. They gave young people an identity other than the Torah.
Obviously, Hashem had plans for it to work out. Of course we are very happy to have it in our hands and to be allowed to Daven at our Mekomos Hakedoshim — oops, the Zionists don’t always let that. If you want to compare it to a Galach it would be more similar to him having found something that is yours while digging for gold. You’ll say thank you perhaps, but you won’t be endebted to him for his great present.
The movement that was, is no more. There are Mizrachi who still follow the ideology of the Frum branch of Zionism. We obviously have different Hashkafos, especially regarding the special high ranks that they consider the state leaders to represent. However they are not doing what the Zionists did. They are keeping Mitzvos and learning Torah. The state is a state like any other state. They aren’t rallying anyone to their cause, because it is a done deal. There is a country not a cause.
tahini: the next time you speak to your son, please tell him thank you from me for helping to protect the Jewish nation. I constantly daven for his safety and that of fellow soldiers. Thank you!
optimusprime: The picture of R’ Kook came down not because of Zionism, but over the ruling that girls could serve in the IDF. The Chazon Ish was firmly against it. R’ Kook was no longer alive, so he didn’t have a position on it. Why did he remove R’ Kook’s picture? I don’t know, maybe he only had room for one of them. But it certainly was not a slight against R’ Kook, rather it was to show his support of the Chazon Ish.
Feif Un
I do not know why Rav Hutner did it, but the fact that he hardly ever mentioned Rav Kook in Yeshiva or in any of his works clearly sends a message of some sort of rift. You honestly believe that Rav Hutner’s Succah was so small he could have only fit the Chazon Ish and not Rav Kook? Please…
tahini….”Mother of a frum officer in the IDF tired of defending my son as someone “off the derech”.
I would say that your son is very much on the Derech and you should be extremely proud of him and all those who serve in the IDF…
halevi- interestingly enough, someone once showed me a sefer from the gaon in which he says that the in year the state ended up being founded in, there would be a segulas hazman to bring the geula, but in the end the resha’im would make use of it to do somehting bad. and in that year the state was founded. and the gaon wrote his sefer along time before.
R’ Aharon Feldman shlit”a, as paraphrased by Rabbi Yaakov Menken on Cross-Currents: (from two years ago, but the essential parts remain relevant)
One must begin with history. At the founding of the state, the Zionist establishment needed to show that all of Jewry was under their umbrella. The state and religious Jews, though, had diametrically opposed definitions of what it means to be a Jew. The Zionist definition is a nationalist one. According to the religious definition, a Jew is part of a nation that received the Torah at Har Sinai, adheres to its laws, and believes that it is a nation because of the giving of the Torah.
Some Jews chose not to back the state. Our Gedolim felt that they could join with the state, on condition that they be granted autonomy. They would have their own education system, and other autonomous rights. This was the basis of the status quo agreement. Whatever took place before the formation of the state would continue in the same manner: the laws of marriage, Shabbos as a day of rest, and religious Jews would have an autonomous education system.
The Chazon Ish knew that Torah learning could not flourish, and Gedolim could not develop, if youngsters spent three of their most formative years in the Army. But even more important, Ben-Gurion wanted the Army to be a melting pot for immigrants from all over the world, to forge them into a new nation. Charedi Jews did not, and do not, want to be melted down. Living in an environment of chilul Shabbos, rampant immorality, and questionable Kashrus is toxic for our youth.
What Charedi parent in the United States would send his son to dorm in a co-ed secular university for three years? There are parents who do this, but we also know the tragic results. This is why we have separate schools, separate newspapers, no television, no unfiltered Internet. We spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on education systems that isolate our children from secular culture.
The Hesder model is not truly separate, and the results are predictable; a large proportion of them are lost to Judaism. According to Rav Eliezer Melamed, Rosh Yeshiva of the Religious-Zionist Yeshiva Har Brachah, 20% come out completely secular. Those who return to Yeshiva are weakened in their commitment to Torah. When I moved to Israel, the Religous Zionist party had thirteen seats in the government, and today they have five. This is in no small part due to the secularization of their youth in the Army.
Even were it true that it had the status of pikuach nefesh, which it does not, Charedim cannot serve in the Army. Spiritual pikuach nefesh is of no lesser importance than physical pikuach nefesh. We should have the status of conscientious objectors in any democratic society.
Now let us turn to the attempt by the government to introduce secular subjects into our educational system. We may wonder, why do we object to introducing the same subjects taught in American Torah high schools? But we cannot judge Israel like the United States. The problems and challenges are different, and the ways that we must respond to those problems are different.
Moreover, Gemara prepares a person for modern technology more than even math and science. When our students enter job training, they score higher than their secular counterparts, because their minds have been developed. A recent United States Department of Education study concluded that in order to deal with the computer-based society of the next decade, education should not emphasize facts, but critical and logical thinking. And this is what Gemara does to a mind.
Please be advised, Mr. Netanyahu, Mr. Bennett, and Mr. Lapid, that we do not feel that we can survive as a nation with your proposed laws.
I will give myself as an example of what is going to happen. I moved to Israel with three small children 50 years ago, with tremendous difficulty. I wanted to study Torah and experience the Kedushah of Eretz Yisrael. I only moved there because I was assured that we could raise our children as religious Jews, without government interference and without them having to go into the Army. This might not be true any longer. If you pass a law saying that it is criminal not to enlist in the Army, then although I love Israel no less than I did 50 years ago, and have for 50 years built up my entire family structure in Israel, I will nevertheless do everything possible to pull my family out. The dedication of my future descendants to Torah is more vital to me. We will pack our bags, as Jews have done many times throughout our history, and escape from this danger. Spiritual danger is more devastating than physical danger. It is tragic that a Jewish state will force me to do this, but it is no less dangerous for me and my future because it is a Jewish state.
H is simply incorrect, especially regarding the Hesder system. The biggest threats to Chareidi society are poverty caused by men refusing to work and support their families as required by the ketubot they sign (and no, there is no responsibility to give large amounts to such people) and the anti-social behavior among youths who are not fit for full-time study but have no outlet. The latter was, in fact, the mistake made with Eisav (Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch, commentary to Bereisheet 25:27).
DY:Never knew you could write such a long post. Very nice!
But you could denounce your citizenship or your grandchildren and not move.
Avi K:
The Zionists do not allow chareidim in E”Y to get a job unless they submit themselves to its unique shmad, gilui arayos, et al. that is IDF service. If your idol would do away with that evil policy of theirs then the chareidim in E”Y will be able to work.
Until then, your idol is the reason they cannot work and their families live in poverty, etc. R”L L”A.
Regarding Zionism, see the other threads.
You can’t define Zionism as “wanting to live in E”Y” or anything like that because that is simply not its definition.
Zionism is, simply, the identity theft and desire to “normalize” the Jewish people by changing it from a people based on the Torah into, lihavdil, a nationalist people based solely on a land (which happens to be E”Y) just so the Zionists could feel like they’re in the same club as the Gentiles. That’s Zionism.
Our greatest sages for around the past century have stated categorically and unequivocally that Zionism is idolatry, heresy and, obviously, is anti-Jewish to its core.
HaKatan,
1. Nonsense. You are motzi shem ra and hundreds of thousands of Jews.
2. The leaders of the Chareidim have repeated stated thatt hey do not want them to work. Not even to study a profession in a Chareidi college.
3. Zionism is the political movement for regaining Jewish sovereignty in EY.
4. More nonsense. In fact, living in Shmutz LaAretz is compared to idolatry (Ketubot 110b). Anti-Zionism today is a refusal to see Hashem’s hand in history. At best it is Aristotelian denial of Hashem’s intervention in the world. At worst Zoroastrianism (belief in two gods, a god of good and a god of evil).
HaKatan: You are manifestly ignorant of the Israeli law concerning the army. All chareidim above age 26 are now exempt- repeat-exempt from any army service and can go to work. So, your intemperate words about working in Israel is false.
4. More nonsense. In fact, living in Shmutz LaAretz is compared to idolatry (Ketubot 110b). Anti-Zionism today is a refusal to see Hashem’s hand in history. At best it is Aristotelian denial of Hashem’s intervention in the world. At worst Zoroastrianism (belief in two gods, a god of good and a god of evil).
Okay, now I’m waiting for all of the anti-HaKatan people to be fair and similarly protest this statement.
Let me be the first: Avi, don’t go down this road. You are wrong and that was offensive.
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