Zionism

I identify myself an Oberlander. The courts have not behaved properly towards the orthodox chareidim on whose behalf Israel exist.

It helped solidify the proof of what a tragedy Zionism has caused the Jewish people. The Zionist State has been the largest cause of anti-Semitic violence, terrorism, war and deaths r”l against the Jewish People ever since the rasha Theodore Herzl announced the Zionist goals and especially every since the rasha David Ben-Gurion and his henchmen established the Zionist Entity.

Nowhere else in the world, since the State’s establishment, has suffered even a fraction as much of anti-Jewish death and violence as Jews have experienced in the so-called State of Israel.

None of those items are an either-or thing. Like that guy from Harvard who talks about anti-Semitism is Chabad Yekkish Modern Orthodox.

I never liked calling myself “Zionist” for obvious reasons. However, these days “Zionist” seems to mean “does not want Israel to be destroyed and everyone killed or expelled”. So I guess, much to my great-grandparents (A”H) chagrin, I’m a Zionist in the eyes of the world.

UJM- “The Zionist State has been the largest cause of anti-Semitic violence, terrorism, war and deaths r”l against the Jewish People ever since the rasha Theodore Herzl announced the Zionist goals and especially every since the rasha David Ben-Gurion and his henchmen established the Zionist Entity.”

I think the physical destruction of the Holocaust and the Soviet Union are miles ahead… as well as the spiritual destruction of Western Europe and the US (in terms of intermarriage).

No change
I would be against the establishment of the State in the first place
But now that it exists, I support its continued existence

Oct 7 only brought to the fore what will chvsh happen bederech hateva if its existence is imperiled
If not for the IDF, of course with syata dishmaya, ,and again, reckoned bederech hateva, who and what would stop those animals ?

So, its continued existence, and our support of it, with all its faults and deficiencies, is definitely a matter of mass pikuach nefesh and therefore mandated by the torah.

Ex-CTLawyer: If you were brought up as Zionist, why are you not an “Ex-Israel Lawyer”. The last Zionist made aliyah in the early 1950s. In America there are only Hareidim and “fans” of the Medinah.

Given the growth of anti-Semitism in the Democratic party, I expect that many non-Zionists will be moving there in the near future (the only other options are the hope the “Progressive Democrats” are totally wiped out in the next election, or migration to “red” states).

“I think many ehriche Yidden are sympathetic to Zionism even when disagree with something. I saw one such charedi British rav being asked by not-so-observant Yidden whether he is a Zionist, and he replied “yes, in the meaning of hamechazir shechinato l’Zion”.”

This is pathetic and sick. It’s like if someone asks if you’re a Jews for J member then you say, yes, in the meaning of Jew. Zionism is the total opposite of Judaism and, in fact, exists specifically to change Judaism into Zionism and Jews into Zionists. That’s a total conversion, not merely a political club.

Simcha613:
“UJM- “The Zionist State has been the largest cause of anti-Semitic violence, terrorism, war and deaths r”l against the Jewish People ever since the rasha Theodore Herzl announced the Zionist goals and especially every since the rasha David Ben-Gurion and his henchmen established the Zionist Entity.”

I think the physical destruction of the Holocaust and the Soviet Union are miles ahead… as well as the spiritual destruction of Western Europe and the US (in terms of intermarriage).”

The physical destruction of the Holocaust was, of course, caused by that same Zionism and Zionists, including the Zionists lobbying governments against allowing in Jews to their respective countries because that was bad for Zionism. And the spiritual destruction of Western Europe and the US is an after-effect/because of that same Zionist-caused Holocaust.

I strongly agree with Yankel Berel, very very well said.

However, I will add that while I strongly support the fact that Jews are staying in control of the area and sending soldiers to protect the Jews, I absolutely don’t support all the symbols of their agenda of making Jews a nation like any other.
This includes their flag, their anthem (which intentionally omits any mention of G-d), the title Medinas Yisroel which they use to substitute the traditional, biblical “Eretz Yisroel.”

Moreover, I feel that the flag, the anthem, etc. are detrimental
to their security, because they give chashivus to our recent, 70-year-old “independence” “given to us” by the UN, as opposed to the fact that it’s an ancient gift from the Creator to Avraham Avinu.
This encourages the bogus claim that we are a “colonialist entity” living on stolen land which must be “returned” to the Arabs, ch”v.

I was especially disheartened when after October 7th, every Jew felt the need to do something to show their support, many chose (in their ignorance, thanks to the Zionist propaganda) to engage in waving the Zionist flag, etc., instead of engaging in true Judaism. (This is not to say that there weren’t many, many Jews who were inspired to add in Torah and mitzvos, but it could have been much more).

When people start associating the flag with Judaism, it’s because they think that the main part of being a Jew is being an “Israeli”, eating Israeli food, speaking the language, singing the songs, and waving the flags. However, true Yiddishkeit cannot be secular, rather it’s only Torah and mitzvos.

Simcha:

Since 1948 the State of Israel has bore the largest victimhood of anti-Semitic violence, terrorism, war and deaths against the Jewish People. Nowhere else in the world, since 1948, have Jews suffered even a fraction as much of anti-Jewish death and violence as Jews have experienced under the Zionist Regime.

ReflectiveNotes:
One could ask the same about the Eigel: let’s agree what the eigel should never have been made. But once it was made – and look at all the “achdus” and the miracles of the satan making it literally dance in front of them – what is the point of being anti-eigel? What is the alternative (especially given that the erev rav-influenced nationalists murdered Chur – whom Moshe Rabbeinu specifically appointed in his absence – because he spoke against the idol)? Of course, Hashem didn’t agree, and struck dead all those idolaters.

Decades ago, the Satmar Rav wrote that if the Zionists actually cared about Jewish lives, then the Zionists could go to the UN (yes, that UN) and tell them that they want out, and that the UN should figure out a way to keep all the Jews safe there while ending the Zionist nightmare (for Jews). But even if that UN option were no longer true – and nobody can prove that, but even IF it were no longer true – the major point of “anti-Zionism” is to believe in G-d and His Torah and not in idols.

In other words, G-d runs this world and He doesn’t want the Zionist idol and shmad of His children. The Brisker Rav noted that the Zionist State is the greatest achievement of the satan since the eigel. In hindsight of a century of cataclysmic Zionist damage, this is beyond obvious, too. So, the fact that Hashem very much doesn’t want that State is absolutely true, regardless of the illusory power of the Zionists. So, even if there is no practical human alternative at this time, we still are obligated to turn away from idols and to daven to Hashem for a salvation of His choosing in accordance with His Torah, and recognize that He can do anything, including ending Zionism and vastly improving the lives of the Jews there and everywhere – including but not limited to the geulah sheleimah BB”A.

The other related problem is that praying for that idol gives it spiritual power, as our prayers are very powerful. In fact, as the Brisker Rav noted, that’s what caused the idol State to come into being in the first place: because Jews davened for it instead of the geulah. Both he and the Satmar Rav stated that the geulah would have come then, but that they ruined it. The latter writes this in VaYeChi, if memory serves. So, nobody should repeat that mistake. Daven for the geulah, and that Hashem should keep all Jews safe and well always, and never for the idol. It really is that simple.

There’s so much more that could be said on the topic, BE”H, but that should at least be a start.

> And the spiritual destruction of Western Europe and the US is an after-effect/because of that same Zionist-caused Holocaust.

Zionists were not the major cause of that destruction (and why are you excluding most Jews who lived in Eastern Europe?) – most Jews assimilated, intermarried, converted, became communists, bundists. Zionists might have been beneficial for assimilated Jews as it kep them within Jewish circles, and brought many to ISrael where they both survived physically and gave their einekels a chance to be part of Jewish nation. What was the source of all those plagues? Tremendous changes in modern society, and also Jewish community’s inability to counteract. We can’t blame leaders of communities at that time – many tried, it was unprecedented time, etc, but the fact is that it took us a couple of hundred years to partially figure out how to safely either separate from or live inside modern society.

Menachem Shmei,
“many chose (in their ignorance, thanks to the Zionist propaganda) to engage in waving the Zionist flag, etc., instead of engaging in true Judaism”
I’m from a major Jewish community & the most well known & respected Chasidish Rebbe attended a local (not in the community) Pro-Israel rally. In the pics he’s holding a “Zionist flag”
This Rebbe is engaged in “True Judaism” 24/7/365. Whether running his wonderful Shul, helping people, giving Shiurim, or teaching at schools.
I think the difference is in many places Yidden fight or at best ignore each other until the Nazis take over. Where I’m from there’s a lot lower threshold that triggers cooperation. Yidden in Eretz Yisroel are being killed & held hostage. Antisemitism in America (& elsewhere) is skyrocketing. Perhaps (he does) this Rebbe has Chochma. When the Non-Frum Jews at the rally who only know how to wave a Zionist flag see a real Chasidish Rebbe in Chasidus garb right beside them also waving a Zionist flag the message that sends is priceless.

“He [Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz] once said that
even though Eretz Yisrael is controlled by non-religious
and anti-religious Jews, one must still admit the good
that HaKadosh Baruch Hu had done, in causing the gates
to the Land to be open once again to Jewish immigration.”

SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 331, footnote 4,
heard from Rabbi Yehoshua Schiff) by Yonoson Rosenblum for Artscroll / Mesorah,
year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965

In a conversation with the Satmar Rav, shortly after his talk
on the U.N. declaration, Reb Shraga Feivel [Mendlowitz]
was subjected to the sharpest criticism for his “Zionist leanings.”

Later he told his family,
“I could have answered him [the Satmar Rav]
Chazal for Chazal, Midrash for Midrash,
but I did not want to incur his wrath,
for he is a great man and a tzaddik.”

He added with a twinkle, “And besides, he has a fiery temper”…

SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 335 to 336) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965

>>>Decades ago, the Satmar Rav wrote that if the Zionists actually cared about Jewish lives, then the Zionists could go to the UN (yes, that UN) and tell them that they want out, and that the UN should figure out a way to keep all the Jews safe

Can you give the exact source for where the Satmar Rav wrote that nonsense.?

Back in the days that I was faithfully believed in all the anti-Zionist rhetoric my first seeds of doubt were created when I read In one of the Satmar Rebbe’s seforim his opinion that Israel did not need to fight to the six day war because their adversaries weren’t really interested in war. But of course my real disillusionment really kicked in when I came in more contact with people like your self

>>> The Brisker Rav noted that the Zionist State is the greatest achievement of the satan since the eigel.

The Brisker Rav never said anything of the sort. I learned in Brisk for three years and never heard anyone make such a claim. It is only people who made a new religion based on their opposition to Zionism who could believe such a thing. Yeruvem Ben Navat forcing the majority of Eretz Yisroel to worship actual idols? Menashe burning every single sefer Torah in Eretz Yisroel? More recently the Soviet Union shmading three million Yidden? etc.? Nu, still not as bad as what the Zionist did. But only according to those who believe in the new religion of hating Zionists. No Torah Jew could believe such a thing. Not only that the Brisker Rav was of the opinion that the anti-Zionist view that attributes all Zionist successes to the Satan borders of kefira R’L. It believes the Sotton has independent power .

I literally post on here just so I can convince someone, literally anyone, that Republicans aren’t your friends.

After hearing a well-known Rabbi give a fiery
derashah against the secular Jews in Eretz Yisrael,
Reb Shraga Feivel [Mendlowitz] expressed his
displeasure with the tone of the speech.

“True, is it hard for us to reach the ahavas Yisrael
of Reb Yitzchak Levi of Berditchev,” he said,
“but we are commanded to keep far away
from hatred of our fellow Jews.”

SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 16, page 229) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965

“On Friday, November 29, 1947, the United Nations debated
the issue of partitioning the British Mandate for [British]
Palestine into two countries, one Arab and on Jewish.

Reb Shraga Feivel [Mendlowitz] prayed fervently for partition.
He had no radio in his house, but that Friday he borrowed
one and set it to the news, leaving it on for Shabbos.

He waited with such tense anticipation to hear the outcome of
the U. N. [United Nations] vote that he did not come to shalosh seudos.

When he heard the U. N.’s decision to establish a Jewish state,
he stood up and recited the blessing HaTov VeHaMeitiv,
Who is good and Who does good.

Without losing sight of the anti-religious nature of the leaders
of the yishuv in Eretz Yisrael, he nevertheless saw the creation
of a Jewish state an act of Providence and as a cause for rejoicing.

At the very least, there would now be one country in the world
whose gates would be open to the thousands of Holocaust survivors
still languishing in Displaced Persons Camps in Germany and Austria.”

SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 331) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965

….if …. actually cared about Jewish lives, then …. could go to the UN (yes, that UN) and tell them that they want out, and that the UN should figure out a way to keep all the Jews safe there while ending the Zionist nightmare (for Jews). But even if that UN option were no longer true – and nobody can prove that ….
{hakatan]
———————–
1] If the UN option was no longer true . If ….
What’s the question at all .
Can the UN be trusted to protect the people it was sent to protect ?
It was sent to Bosnia to protect the local Muslim population from the Bosnian Serbs.
How many THOUSANDS of innocent civilians were directly murdered within a small distance of those very UN soldiers sent to protect them ?

The thousands of trained soldiers from the UN stationed in South Lebanon cannot implement their own resolution 1701, out of fear of Hizbullah.

The Yazidi’s also were supported by the UN in the face of IS attacks on them .
Result ? Ask the yazidi’s how many survived , and ask those who did survive , in what state they survived….

2] The UN should figure out a way ….
Besides brazen appeasement to those barbarians , I have not [neither has anyone else] seen a way to deal them.
The UN could not even protect ITS OWN PEOPLE stationed in those lands of the likes of Iraq or Afghanistan from the bloodthirsty savages.
And you still suggest to willingly entrust millions of yehudim to their “protection” ????

Where is your ahrayut for the safekeep of yehudim ?

I went to Satmer school. My family is not Satmer nor Satmer geshtimt. We read both, the Jewish Press and Der Yid, religiously every week. No one in my family had any pro or anti Zionist opinions. To them, it was what it was. For me, having an opinion on everything even as a young kid, I could not understand what the Satmere wanted the Yidden in Israel to do in the face of attacks by the Arabs. Learning the history of pre-independant Israel and the way the Arabs kept on attacking the Jews and cutting off food and supply routes, it was ridiculous to me that the anti-Zionists expected the Jews to sit with folded hands and not protect themselves. I also found it incredibly naive for anti-Zionists to believe the UN or an international body made up of non-Jews, as they used to propose an idea of who can govern Israel instead of the Zionists, would do anything to protect Jews.

Today however, I do realize the extent the secular Zionists have destroyed Israel with their own hands. There are today almost no secular Zionists, they are for the most part simply leftists. They have destroyed their own ideology and they are constantly putting Israel at security risk. Giving away land to the enemies, giving in to terrorist demands, cowering in the face of international pressure, imprisoning their soldiers, these are all the products of secular Zionist education that has left generations of secular empty shells due to their upbringing devoid of Yiddishkeit. Their entire ideology of secular Zionism has collapsed.

As for the rightwing Zionists, I support the frum ones who adhere to Rav Kook zt”l teachings, not the ones who put living in the land before halcha and end up trampling on halacha.

I still believe Jews not only have a right to defend themselves, but they have an obligation to do so, and I will always believe that.
Having said that, due to the tarivos and secular ideology that permeates the IDF, the secular have no right to draft the Chareidim into the army.

My views my look paradoxical, but I think that it reflects the reality.

I remembered reading this written by a Talmid of Rav Ruderman.
“I had conversations with him on numerous current issues. He was very tolerant and open to different points of view. His interest was learning Torah and teaching Torah. Unlike some others who still live in a bygone era and cannot deal with reality, he once told me “the state of Israel is a good thing, where would Jews have gone were there no State of Israel”. He encouraged all of us to go to Washington in 1967 during the Six Day War. He had compassion and deep understanding, the opposite of a fanatic.”

ReflectiveNotes: You missed the point. Zionism and the State of Israel have been devastating to Klal Yisroel. We would have been much better off if they never happened. What to do now is a separate question. Giving the State over to the Arabs now might be the wrong thing. But that doesn’t retroactively change the fact that the State should never have existed in the first place.

This point needs to be stressed every time Zionists come here and elsewhere on the web and in real life pontificating that their State is the safest place for Jews (it is not) and the State is the greatest thing (au contraire).

smerel: Brisk is extremely anti-Zionism. The Brisker Rov and the Satmar Rebbe were very close with each other. Notwithstanding any minor disagreements, as virtually all Gedolim will have with another.

Full disclosure: I live in Israel. Nothing has changed. Obviously I support the country I live in.

I’m a Zionist insofar as Shivas Tzion is concerned. Not so much politically (My reasons for making Aliyah were not connected to Zionism).

Religiously, I’m a mix. I thankfully did not grow up in and was not educated in the Tri-State Area. I was educated in both MO and Yeshivish institutions and both had their positives. I usually call myself “Frum without Tri-State area mishugassen”, but in far more blunt (and impolite) terms.