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No surprise. They have to consider the hooligans in their camp. Even Rav Eliashiv was stoned (after he reached an agreement on moving graves).
What are you asking? For laymen to comment on the opinions of the gedolei Torah? Isn’t it time, once and for all, to get over this? A child in kindergarten doesn’t comment on the opinion of a professor in a university. And if he does, it isn’t worth very much.
DaMoshe and rob say it’s obvious, Joseph says it’s all a lie, thread gets closed.
Just wait.
Doesnt Apukema at least get a comment? before its closed
Sam 2: I needed a laugher this morning and then I saw your comment-mentioning rob – and you got me my funny line! Thanks!
As for the actual subject- methinks that anyone who is learning should be drafted.
Lol american_yerushalmi
that is exactly what Moshe Rabbeinu replied when told “…???-???? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??????”
Now I am just waiting for DaMoshe and Joseph to chime in so I can close it.
Ubiquitin, no, not exactly. In fact, not even close.
You seen to be developing a nasty habit of quoting p’sukim out of context to bolster opinions which are k’neged halachah.
The following appears on the Arutz Sheva English site:
For months, the haredi officer charged with integrating religious soldiers into the army has endured an unending barrage of harassment and defamation from radical elements within the community opposed to service in the IDF.
On Wednesday, however, the efforts to force the officer to either abandon his position or leave the haredi community ratcheted up dramatically.
His wife and children discovered the frame of the front door had been damaged, and that the lock of the front door had been glued, rendering it inoperable.
They later discovered black paint splashed on the floor of the apartment building near the entrance of their home.
[paint]
Despite the attack on their home, the family remains determined not to cave in to the pressure.
[of vandals]
Hardly DY.
I am not bolstering any opinion. When I want to I certainly know how, you have seen my extended rants on more than one occasion. I am just adding a helpful tidbit to point out things aren’t as black and white as some seem to think.
In the other case you are referring to, I added a pasuk (before your mareh mekomos were visible) which is not taken out of context. As I understand it it is a clearly saying that the burden of milchama should be shared by all. Now obviously there is what to be said as learning also protects, perhaps todays milchama doesn’t have the same staus as then etc etc. I did not say (and di not mean to imply) that the passuk is open and shut case to the OP’s post. THe OP was asking for mareh mekomos and I provided, what I believe to be a relevant one. I have never attended a shiur where a person brought up a topic and said here is the pasuk, veiter next topic, and am surprised that you think that is what I meant.
Similarly in this situation. The idea that laymen cant have an opinion on something that Gedolim discuss, is foregin to Traditional Judaism. This is a yet a new twist on the “Daas Torah” innovation. At least with classical Daas torah (as I understand it) we are mevatel our Daas to Gedolim, but are allowed to have opinions. American_yerushalmi seems to be saying that we are no allowed to have an opinion at all once the Gedolim have spoken.. I don’t understand how the passuk is “taken out of context” As I understand the incident. Yisro saw A Gadol doing something wrong and he voiced his opinion. Obviously with derech eretz, perhaps not in a public forum etc etc. BUt how on Earth is it not relevant. The passuk quite clearly indicates that it is appropriate “For laymen to comment on the opinions of the gedolei Torah” And that they can be quite worthwhile. After all a parshas was added because of Yisro’s speaking up. How is this out of context or k’neged halacha?
I’m not sure why you cant reply like a mentch. If you don’t think its relevant explain why. If you want clarification ask for it
It seems to me that this is the standard Yeshivish viewpoint, learn as much as you can. If you can’t learn anymore, then choose a kosher derech outside of learning.
“Gedolim Backed Nachal Chareidi At The Onset, Albeit Quietly”
Funny headline, since the accompanying story as well as the supporting letters clearly do not say this.
It seems to me that this is the standard Yeshivish viewpoint, learn as much as you can. If you can’t learn anymore, then choose a kosher derech outside of learning.
The Israeli Charaidim never accepted that view. That is one of the biggest differences between CHUL Yeshivish and Israeli Charaidi.
Another difference, as american_yerushalmi and ubiquitin both point out, is whether “Da’as Torah” means that the Gadol has the only and final say, and no one has the right to an opinion or even respectfully offer comment. Charaidim adopted the Chassidish view that the Rebbe’s word is final, always correct by definition, and no discussion is allowed, while the Yeshivish have adopted the Litvish view.
THe OP was asking for mareh mekomos and I provided, what I believe to be a relevant one.
That’s a woefully inadequate mareh makom for that halachic discussion, and you know that.
As I see it, you’re comparing a-y’s post, which you are blasting, to Moshe Rabbeinu’s response to Yisro? I will give you the opportunity to clarify.
Thanks for the opportunity.
As, I understood A-y he was saying that we have no right to an opinion if the Gedolim have one. Note: this discussion isnt about practice or acting on said opinion against the gedolim, but rather on just having an opinion. As he put it, it is wrong “For laymen to comment on the opinions of the gedolei Torah” and if one does “it isn’t worth very much.” To which I provided a passuk indicating that a LAymen should speak up and voice an opinion, and that in fact it can be quite valuable.
Again, note if Moshe Rabbinu had told Yisro, no my way is better I have my reasons etc. My point STILL stands since my point is laypeople are allowed to have (and voice) their own opinions.
Is it exactly the same? Of course not! (obviously Yisro wasnt on an online forum and he spoke to Moshe directly) but I believe it is comparable.
(As for the other thread perhaps we have different interpretations of “mareh makom” or different understanding of what the OP was looking for. I understood him as wanting to prepare a shiur on the topic from scracth beginning with pesukim, Gemaras, Rishonim achronim and ending with contemprary sh”ut on the subject. So I provided a passuk that comes to mind regarding the subject as a starting point. PErhaps I misunderstood what he was looking for)
I said:
If you can’t learn anymore, then choose a kosher derech outside of learning.
GAW responded;
The Israeli Charaidim never accepted that view
GAW, can you please inform me what is the Israeli Chareidi view on what to do after learning.
So you’re comparing his post to what Moshe Rabbeinu did not respond?
I’m not sure what you mean.
I am saying that laypeople have a right to have (and voice) an opinion.
Moshe Rabbeinu did not tell Yisro, keep your opinion to yourself “A child in kindergarten doesn’t comment on the opinion of a professor in a university”
I’m referring to: Lol american_yerushalmi
that is exactly what Moshe Rabbeinu replied when told “…???-???? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??????”
DY
I was being sarcastic.
Mw13: “Gedolim backed nachal Charedi… thoughts?”
A-Y “What are you asking? For laymen to comment on the opinions of the gedolei Torah?”
ubiquitin : “Lol american_yerushalmi that is exactly what Moshe Rabbeinu replied when told “…???-???? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??????”
Actually that is NOT what Moshe Rabbeinu replied. When he was told “..???-???? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??????” His reply was not “A child in kindergarten doesn’t comment on the opinion of a professor in a university.” yisro had a “comment on the opinions of the gedolei Torah” and shared it.
Sorry if that wasnt clear
OK. You were still way off on the other thread (you comparison here, as you admit, wasn’t too great either).
Sorry I didn’t pick up on the sarcasm.
“OK. You were still way off on the other thread”
That depends what he was looking for. He was looking for an open and shut pesak or for something he can give over in its entirety as a shiur on the subject. Yes I was waaaaaaaaaaay off.
If he was looking for a mareh makom on the subject, a passuk that is relevant but in no way all-encompassing then I stand by the relevance of my provided passuk to the subject at hand.
“(you comparison here, as you admit, wasn’t too great either).”
sigh, yes I admit
“Daat Torah” is generally understood to mean that the rav also paskens on non-halachic matters. For example, what kind of car to buy and whether or not to accept the offer of financing deal to by an apartment (some years ago, in a major blow for the idea of DT, a contractor went bankrupt leaving Chareidi buyers who listened to rabbanim and accepted a discount in return for giving up the usual bank guarantees in the lurch).
DY
When there is a story of Daas Torah that has a good outcome, You belive it
Do you believe stories of Daas Torah where the outcome is bad (Simple example a Rav says to go into a certain business and it fails or says to make a certain shidduch and its a disaster (Like an abuser))
GAW, can you please inform me what is the Israeli Chareidi view on what to do after learning.
Learn more 🙂
Ubiquitin, you seem to be a pretty learned fellow. Certainly one who can understand a passuk with basic mefarshim. So here’s what I’d like to ask you-
Please open up a Trei Assar to Hoshea 14, passuk yud. And read Metzudas David on the passuk. To the end.
Perhaps then you might consider being careful how you quote psukim from Chumash.
Thank you very much.
ZD, daas Torah isn’t about stories.
When you claim that daas Torah means infallibility, you’ve created a straw man, easy enough to tear down by showing situations in which the outcome didn’t reflect the advice given. That’s not what the typical yeshivish definition of daas Torah is, though.
DY – What is Da’as Torah?
For example:
HaRav Shmuel Auerbach: Voting Gimmel is a Vote Assisting One to Perform an Avreira
How about BMG (including the Roshei Yeshiva) endosing Corzine over Christie.
Out Of The Mailbag – Lakewood Should Be Endorsing Chris Christie
Da’as Torah or not?
Did the letter writer have the right to an “opinion”?
Finally, does Rabbi Avi Weiss have Da’as Torah? How about HaGaon Shaul Lieberman?
That is what it has become to mean. Its not about anymore about asking a Shaila about Halacha (Like can I open a Bakery when there is already a Bagel store) , but about asking “Life Questions” like what kind of car should I drive or who should I hire to paint my house.
What is Da’as Torah?
It’s a combination of things which result in the words of talmidei chachomim having more import than those of a hedyot. It exists on different levels.
If someone learns properly, it should refine his thinking and emotions so that he can answer a question with seichel and objectivity. A true gadol does not allow bias to inform his decision, and has insight (to varying levels, depending on the level of gadlus) that a hedyot doesn’t.
I am not going to get involved in discussing who is or isn’t a gadol.
That is what it has become to mean.
Infallibility, or advice in mili d’alma (mundane matters)? Those are two different things.
You also left out an extremely important middle area – questions which may not technically be halachah shailos, but are important to Yiddishkeit.
“does Rabbi Avi Weiss have Da’as Torah? How about HaGaon Shaul Lieberman?”
One of the most humorous aspects of the Open Orthodoxy wars is the heresy hunters citing HaGaon Shaul Lieberman in opposition to Rabbi Avi Weiss on semicha for women when they would never cite Rabbi Lieberman on anything else, ever.
“We Modern Orthodox don’t believe in Daas Torah because Rav Soloveitchik told us not to.”
DY
I dont know Avi’s Story about where “Daas Torah” told people to use a certain contractor and he failed
Lets assume this story is true or some version of it (I have heard similar type stories)
How is this related to Yiddishkeit
How is it related to Yiddishkeit of someone asks what kind of car to drive (I dont mean the guy is asking should he drive a Lamborghini, but rather a Honda , Toyota or a Chevy)
If someone learns properly, it should refine his thinking and emotions so that he can answer a question with seichel and objectivity. A true gadol does not allow bias to inform his decision, and has insight (to varying levels, depending on the level of gadlus) that a hedyot doesn’t.
So it’s like a Yogi (not Berra) or Bhikkhu (or Bhikkhuni) or perhaps more like a Vulcan (think Spock), who can make decisions based on logic and (Torah) knowledge and not allow emotions or biases to taint their opinions.
You also left out an extremely important middle area – questions which may not technically be halachah shailos, but are important to Yiddishkeit.
Such as whom to vote for, which you refuse to answer the question.
Classic dichotomy.
A_y
“I hope people are not comparing themselves to Yisro…”
Why on Earth not? I’d venture to say that the difference between Yisro and Moshe is less than that between us and R” Chaim Kanievesky. Besides so who where these pesukim written for if not for us? Is it just an interesting historical lesson that Yisro once questioned Moshe but is not applicable in future generations ch”v?
“Would Yisro have given his blessings to the endeavor saying, …”
Probably not, but I don’t know.
Wrong in fact questions/doubts/suggestions Should be voiced. Eizehu Chacham Halomed mikal adom. Not Alomed mikal adam chutz mikindirgarteners
Entirely true, but irrelevant.
Yes but it is possible.
Sorry to let you down Golfer
I guess I’m not as learned as you thought. I have absolutely no idea what You are trying to say. Am I looking in the write place?
I looked here http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14261&st=&pgnum=89
passuk yud
Just to back up. I am saying only one thing: That laypeople can (and should) question opinions of Gedolim. Not that the opinions should be ignored, not that it should be done in a chutzpadik way etc.
One of the most humorous aspects of the Open Orthodoxy wars is the heresy hunters citing HaGaon Shaul Lieberman in opposition to Rabbi Avi Weiss on semicha for women when they would never cite Rabbi Lieberman on anything else, ever.
It wasn’t addressed by anyone else because it is a Conservative shailah, not an Orthodox one.
“We Modern Orthodox don’t believe in Daas Torah because Rav Soloveitchik told us not to.”
So this is something upon which we can all agree – that Rav Sokoveichik did not possess daas Torah.
So it’s like a Yogi (not Berra) or Bhikkhu (or Bhikkhuni)
I suppose to someone who doesn’t believe in the Torah, yes.
Whom to vote for can fall into either category.
So it’s like a Yogi (not Berra) or Bhikkhu (or Bhikkhuni)
I suppose to someone who doesn’t believe in the Torah, yes.
What is the difference if all Da’as Torah means is that you have a detached opinion with some specific knowledge of a topic? Why wouldn’t a Vulcan doctor have more Da’as Torah than a Rabbi?
Whom to vote for can fall into either category.
Dodged the question. When someone who would be considered “Da’as Torah” (such as Rabbis Auerbach or Kotler) say you must vote for a specific person, that would be them telling you this falls under Da’as Torah.
I will reiterate that I don’t want to discuss specific people.
Charlie,
“
One of the most humorous aspects of the Open Orthodoxy wars is the heresy hunters citing HaGaon Shaul Lieberman in opposition to Rabbi Avi Weiss on semicha for women when they would never cite Rabbi Lieberman on anything else, ever.”
Those who’ve learned a bit know what a ?? ????? is.
ZD,
You’ve got to stop making up stories and assume they relate to ??? ????. Your assumptions are clearly not ??? ????.
So is it Daas Torah if someone asks if they should buy a Honda, Toyota or a Chevy (People do ask such things incredibly) and you get an answer
I will reiterate that I don’t want to discuss specific people.
That’s fine, but then a valid rejoinder is that even if there is such a concept of Da’as Torah, no one has it.
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