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I appreciated your post and I understood you did not believe this behavior should be condoned.
On a different note, what exactly is inappropriately negative about the alleged attitude here towards MO? I perceive the attitude as frank and realistic, not intentionally negative.
But, for starters: Other than YU/Stern, is there a sizeable portion of any Orthodox Jewish institution whose graduates predictably and repeatedly abandon one or more areas of halacha as a direct result of their attending that institution? That’s just for starters. But that’s supposed to not bother anybody?
HaKatan: Very few graduates of YU/Stern “repeatedly abandon one or more areas of Halachah”. I highly doubt that’s it’s even significantly more than how many people go off the Derech at any other Yeshivah. We get that you hate YU/whatever you want to call “MO”. You don’t need to repeatedly post the same Motzi Shem Ra.
Toi: It was not possible. YU students vociferously protested the idea that there was a “gay club” there.
they can protest all they want. doesnt mean it didnt happen. in fact, no-one ever protested roswell.
Toi: It didn’t happen. Never. There was a club (and clubs don’t have meetings, they held events) called the “tolerance club” whose purpose was to raise awareness of certain issues on campus. They were derogatively referred to as the “gay club” because the founders of the club were gay. That’s the story. People who perpetuate the rumor that this “gay club” existed in YC for the purpose of promoting and supporting homosexuality are doing nothing but being Motzi Shem Ra.
There are actual gay clubs at both YU’s Einstein and at YU’s Cordozo.
The Einstein Association of Gays, Lesbians and Bisexuals (EAGLB) is funded by the student council budget which is supported by Yeshiva University itself.
i know someone very close to me who went to YU, and made some friends. one of the friends had some troubles in his life and stopped believing in Hashem and now the boy that i know is totally OTD.
Stern is a wonderful school for the right types of girls. YU is a wonderful school for the right types of guys. I know guys and girls in both schools and they are some of the most pleasant, smart, G-d fearing people I know. If you don’t agree with their values, then go somewhere else. Don’t put it down. I personally don’t agree with many yeshivos’ values. That doesn’t mean I have a right to mock them or degrade them in any way.
Derech: Leave Einstein and Cardozo out of it. When people talk about going to YU, they mean YC/Stern. You will most likely go most of your career in YU without ever speaking to or seeing someone from Einstein and/or Cardozo.
YU is not just a Yeshiva. The Yeshiva is RIETS. YU is a secular college.
Jew on Jew hatred at it’s finest on this thread…
i know someone very close to me who went to YU, and made some friends. one of the friends had some troubles in his life and stopped believing in Hashem and now the boy that i know is totally OTD
And its YU’s fault he had troubles in his life?
he probably would have gone OTD with or without going to YU
Brotherofurs: And this anecdote proves what, exactly? People have gone off at every Yeshivah in history. Does that mean that no one should attend any Yeshivah?
Derech: Correct. When we say “YU”, we should all say “YC” instead. Would making that technical correction make such a difference to you? Everyone knows that when we say “YU” we mean YC anyway.
Stop splitting hairs, Sam2. Everyone knows Einstein and Cardozo are an integral part of YU. Yeshiva University’s name is prominently displayed anywhere Einstein and Cardozo is mentioned. Even our own Charlie Hall, who everyone here simply knows is YU faculty, is actually Einstein faculty.
Imagine BMG had a subsidiary side-business that distributed TV’s as a promotion? It would be completely unimaginable. Even if it was run under a different name and was a small subsidiary. And that idea, as bad as it is, wouldn’t be nearly as terrible as what YU does.
And lets not forget that YU is actually funding these gay groups! And that’s coming from your tuition dollars. Think about it.
“Correct. When we say “YU”, we should all say “YC” instead. Would making that technical correction make such a difference to you? Everyone knows that when we say “YU” we mean YC anyway.”
Sam: So you should have no objection in the world with all the criticisms in the world against YU. As long as the criticism against YU for all the terrible things they engage in is not being leveled against YC or RIETS, you admittedly agree there is no motzei shem ra against RIETS.
BTW, the terrible YU Tolerance Club 2009 public meeting for gays hosted at the Wurzweiler School of Social Work, and presided over by Rabbi Blau, was a function of — and held in the faculties of — YC itself. And it had hundreds of students, graduates and faculty attending that they had to turn some attendees away, since the building could not support such a large crowd.
Derech: That is an institutional issue that people deal with. It has no relevance to the students. I guarantee you that the majority of students have no idea that these clubs exist at Einstein and Cardozo, nor does it have relevance to them. So fine, from now on, just for you, I’ll say YC instead of YU. Happy?
this isnt jew on jew hatred. this is jews hating things that upset Hashem. or more accurately jews hating what another jew does as a matter of policy, when not in line with the torah. you hate neturai karta for the physical problems they create, and i hate several things that yu does due to the spiritual things it does.
Derech: But that’s misleading and disingenuous because when you talk to others about “YU” they will think you are talking about YC. And most people, even the most right-wing people I know, were not against that meeting once they saw/read the transcript of it. Most of the people who say such terrible things about the “panel” never saw or heard what went on there. I even heard someone claim that at the event two people publicly performed a Ma’aseh To’eiva to raucous cheers. Read the transcript first, then call that event terrible. The event had a stated purpose (which, contrary to popular belief, was not to in any way legitimize homosexuality) which most people felt it succeeded in getting across. Read the transcript. After that, if you still think that it was so terrible, you can talk against it.
If prominently identifiable YU institutions such as Einstein and Cordozo do terrible chillul Hashem, then it is entirely appropriate, if not required, to respond to such activities with criticism of “YU”.
I read the transcript from the YC gay event shortly after it occurred. It was not excusable, including what transpired verbatim. I’m almost sure I recall an openly “proud” student speaker at the event justified toeiva in veiled — yet easily understood — language. And the existence of the event itself — an open forum of that nature — gave legitimization to toeiva. In fact, even RIETS R”Y Rav Twersky very strongly criticized it in unbridled and unambiguous terms.
Derech: It only gave legitimization to those who didn’t know or care what was going to happen. The point of the event was that people should not be ostracized just because of their Taavos. Yes, several RIETS Roshei Yeshivah very strongly criticized it. And several supported it. One speaker probably said something he shouldn’t have. That doesn’t make the whole even a legitimization of homosexuality.
In fact, two speakers at the ’09 YC “Being Gay in the Orthodox World” event, made subtle references to the experiences with actual maisa of mishkav zochor.
yes it does. people who act upon taavos or make them known should be ostracized. why does your policy of appeasement end there? if someone were to make known that they enjoyed the company of children, would you be silent? or ostracize them. I know what i would do. if a person has a problem, something inside them that doesnt fit in with the torahs framework, (except li’inyan oinshim) they should kep it inside them, and seek therapy. not proudly tell the world the worst corruptions of the mind and soul.
Toi: That’s the point you missed. Their issue wasn’t that they were proud of it. Their issue was that they were ostracized for Ta’avos they couldn’t control. One of them was told he was evil and had already tasted all Ta’avos in the world and wasn’t satisfied-when he was ten years old. It’s situations like that that they wanted to raise awareness of. Not whether or not they are proud of the Ta’avos they have. They just want people with the same Ta’avos to not be ostracized, even if they don’t act on them. (I’m not saying that I agreed with the event or its purpose; I’m just explaining what it was and I cannot say that it was illegitimate.)
How many Yeshivas HONOR at their Dinner People who are Mechalal Shabbos.
Maybe yours doesnt, but many do.
For example I know that Robert Maxell got a very chashuv levaya when he was buried at Har HaZatim
Many yeshivas have “wings” donated by people who are not relgious.
If you think about it , Its alot worse than what YU did.
Worse than YU? Highly doubtful.
sam2- i think we agree, though im not sure why you agree with them. its not a free religion to voice what you want , when you want.
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