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Avira,
Did they have a negative affect on the Yeshivish kids?My former “friends” completely abandoned me the minute i stopped watching movies with them and donned a black hat. They repeatedly tried to influence me to not become more observant (i am not referring to the hat; i know some will say “you mean a black hat makes you frummer?”…. that’s not my intention)
Here is a youthful misconception: “Hashkafah must be in harmony both in yeshiva and at home.” Hashkafah is how we integrate the dichotomy between our Torah lives and everything else that surrounds us. Those who surround themselves with only Torah have no need for hashkafah. And some people are not bothered by such dichotomies. They fulfill their duties regardless of any inconsistencies. And they are much better off.
That certainly didn’t happen where I went to school. We were taught every part of Klal Yisrael has a part to play and Yiddishkeit wouldn’t function without them all. There is no one way or correct way. We need Chasidim, we need Yeshivish, and yes we even need Torah im Derech Eretz Yidden. This just goes back to my OP. I thought as a kid all Jews could go to school together, play together, and respect each other. But as nicely or gently as people put it, it’s what I learned as I got older, that people need to divide themselves (or at least their kids) up based on petty little factors. Because since parents don’t know how to impart their Derech Hachaim to their kids in a manner that makes kids proud of it and want to live it they have to make sure their children aren’t exposed to anyone else’s.
it is indeed common for kids to stay with the group like them and is more common now than before. It surely helps kids to stay less affected by bad influence, but it unfortunately leaves remaining Jews without any positive influence. We can’t leave them just to chabad shluchim and”kiruv” professionals.
On a personal level, if someone lost friends due to being more observant, it is also a reflection on someone’s level of observance. A true Torah scholar should cause positive emotions among at least some of their friends at least according to beis Hillel
We’re disagreeing not on the need to shield one’s children from objectively bad and harmful things, as I’m sure you’d agree that you wouldn’t want your kids visiting classmates homes who are operating a meth lab and who smoke and drink with their children.
We’re differing on what is harmful. I believe halacha decides what is harmful, and unfiltered internet, television, the potential for inappropriate mixing in with siblings of friends of the opposite gender, and food that might not be even kosher, all are individually enough of a reason to prevent unnecessary contact.If you think those things are “petty”, well, “אם לחשך אדם…על תתגר במרעים, דע שאינו אלא מהם”
Kuvult,
A few of my thoughts.
1. The parents today who you are having a problem with are your classmates and peers who now have their own children. Assuming you’re right that there was some sort of massive genrational shift in behavior, is it possible that your peers may have had different opinions and experiences than you did growing up?
2. What you describe as your childhood is still very much the way things are in smaller OOT communities, where there simply isn’t sufficient infrastructure to provide services tailored to each family’s derech. Maybe an OOT locale or lifestyle would be right for you and your family?
3. You seem very bothered by the perceived rejection and separation, but you also seem unaware of how bitter and hateful some of your statements directed towards the “others” in your community is coming across. Several people have tried to explain the concerns at play with respect to intrusion of an exponentially increasingly toxic secular culture into their home life, but you consistently revert to an insistence that it’s all about “petty little things” like hats and kippas. Do you hold up your end of the bargain, being very friendly to Jews who wear black hats and think the internet is evil, smiling at them, greeting them, and respecting their differences (such as not eating Triangle-K) even if it means their kid is not going to eat lunch at your house?
4. I agree with you that it is vital for parents to instill the family derech into their kids, but unfortunately even in the frum world a kid’s (especially teens) peers tend to have an outsized influence on his/her physical, emotional, and spiritual well being. If your child’s friends all have smartphones with unfiltered internet access and your child does not, and their conversations all revolve around the latest and greatest movie that your child has not seen, and most of their socializing happens on some app that your child does not have, your child may absolutely love his/her derech intellectually, and yet still feel miserable and conflicted emotionally, and feel drawn towards the technology and media that you feel is harmful with a mixture of curiosity, guilt, and resentment towards both their friends and their parents.
Harm and halacha do not line up well at all. It permits to smoke and drink. Davening mincha after nightfall is not permitted. Which house is safer for kids?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“On a personal level, if someone lost friends due to being more observant, it is also a reflection on someone’s level of observance. A true Torah scholar should cause positive emotions among at least some of their friends at least according to beis Hillel”
I agree with a few caveats:
1. A change in derech usually causes a change in focus or priorities, which may result in some friendships gradually drifting apart and other friendships becoming closer, or new friendships developing. This is a normal part of life.
2. Much of this conversation is centered on children – and children are not socially mature creatures yet. Yes we need to provide chinuch and guide them to become respectful, sensitive adults, but it’s a process.
n0mesorah,
“Hashkafah is how we integrate the dichotomy between our Torah lives and everything else that surrounds us. Those who surround themselves with only Torah have no need for hashkafah.
This is an extremely narrow redefinition of hashkafah.
n0mesorah,
“It permits to smoke and drink. “
This is a highly misleading statement.
Dear Avram,
It is not misleading in this context.
Avram in MD,
Of course I’m very friendly with those that wear Black hats, think the internet is evil and won’t eat at my house. There’s a simple reason for that. I had classmates and friends growing up that were Frummer (& less so) than I was but I know even though they have a different Hashkafa they’re still wonderful menschlich people. “Don’t judge a person by what they wear on their head, what their Hashkafa is or where they send their kids to school. Judge them by the content of their character.”Kuvult – who arbitrarily decided that middos (one mitzvah) is more important than kedushas aynayim? Isn’t that also a character element? Or are we going just by who’s “nicer”?
Nome; I’m discussing spiritual harm, not physical. Halacha informs us as to what is spiritual healthy and unhealthy. Doing aveiros hurt us, no matter how numb one may feel to them.
Dear Avira?
I think your idea is warped. Whatever. Which home would you send your kids to? It’s already night. In one house the parents are davening mincha. In the other, they finished maariv and are drinking and smoking.
Avira,
I’m not sure where the argument even is. In my OP I said I grew up assuming kids of different backgrounds could go to the same school and play at each others house. When I got older I learned the correct Derech is to place people into different groups based on certain criteria. That’s what you and others keep advocating. So where’s the argument? The bigger question is why do you all at some level feel uncomfortable with it that you feel the need to justify or defend it?Kuvult, do you have the same attitude of letting your kids be good friends and go to the homes of children from families that are Open Orthodox, Conservadox or Reform Jews?
Avram, I agree on changing priorities and kids. My kids do not stay in touch with those friends who became non-observant or moved into lax MO circles. Still, something is not right here. If you note, Sephardim seem to have more united communities, with many masorti people who feel like part of am yisrael even if not always observant or learned. Possibly, we suffer the post-haskala shock that we probably need to get over already. Number of reformim, socialists, OO is not that high any more, most non-observant Jews are ignorami rather than apikoiri.
> who arbitrarily decided that middos (one mitzvah) is more important than kedushas aynayim
without weighing on the debate itself. there are priorities in values, we are not just adding up mitzvos, see discussions why Avraham wanted shidduch from Syria rather than Knaanim.
Kuvult,
“I’m not sure where the argument even is. In my OP I said … I learned the correct Derech is to place people into different groups based on certain criteria.”
The argument is because we sensed your sarcasm loud and clear. And you didn’t say certain criteria, you said petty little factors.
“The bigger question is why do you all at some level feel uncomfortable with it that you feel the need to justify or defend it?”
Reduction fallacy. There may be more reasons people are responding than discomfort.
Kuvult – My useless advice, ignore them. They have no concept of what you are trying to say (as evidenced by their responses). They will get ruder (as you see above), and probably the posts will because more explicit in delineating the evils of everyone who isn’t them. You are speaking outside of their purview.
Which is not to say I agree with all your points.
“Which house is safer for kids?”
This is one of those silly questions. If I don’t want my kid influenced by bad behavior, who cares how it ranks, it’s still a no go.
UJM,
If course I do. Growing I had neighbors that were completely Secular Jews (& I mean Secular, No Pesach or Rosh Hashanah, in all my years the most I saw was one year a small Menorah on the coffee table during Chanukah) they had a boy a little younger than me and we played all the time at each other’s houses. When we went for a snack his mother showed me the cookies or chips were Kosher. Do you really think 10 year old boys that are Frum and not Frum play differently? Do you think they discuss religion and Hashkafa? Btw, just for reference we Davened at an Agudah (& fit in).The fallacy is in being selective based on frivolous matters. If the parents are picky on their kids’ friend’s houses, that’s fine as long as it has a rhyme and reason that will not come off as shallow to the kids. Instead of getting involved in detailed investigations, some folks will put in a hard and fast rule. Which works until it is challenged. If the parents really do not care, that also works.
The real problem when you get to the stricter end of any religion is you have to “Other” everyone not like you. You know a Secular kid isn’t discussing Yiddishkeit with your kid. The problem is you and his Rebbeim have told him only you live a good life and everyone else are low lifes who spend their lives on drugs and parties. If your kid goes to a Secular house and sees people living a functional, happy, disciplined life of purpose it’ll upend everything you taught him. You can see in the comments who is who. You know the ones that are always attacking and putting down everyone not like them are the super Machmir ones. My Mother (& others) taught me, there are good and bad Chasidim and Yeshivish and MO and not religious. Judge people based on how they act, not how they dress or what they claim to be. The MO serve a purpose because many who are MO would leave Orthodoxy before becoming Charedi. Also, Charedim collect money from the MO and they give even though they know what many Charedim think about them. (Did you ever see a MO collecting in KJ?) So appreciate them for the roll they play. The non-Orthodox give a ton of Tzedaka which benefits the Frum so also appreciate the role they play.
Kuvult, not only do 10 year old non frum kids play differently, they live completely different lives. That was true when i was a kid, and is even more true now, with twisted gender, alphabet soup ideology being fostered onto preschoolers.
When i was a kid, if you didn’t want your 10 year old to have a Gameboy, want to watch TV, movies, etc, you would keep him away from people who had those things.
In our time, 10 year old kids have smartphones, or at least access to them. They do play very, very differently than yeshiva kids.
To answer your question, nome – neither. I wouldn’t want my kids in a spiritually, emotionally, or physically unsafe atmosphere.
When I was a teenager I thought that 99% of people had really good marriages.
Avira > with twisted gender, alphabet soup ideology being fostered onto preschoolers.
I think you and Kuvult envision different scenarios, both happening: you are talking about mixing with random people in a public or MO school, Kuvult seems to be talking to some special people with certain character that happen to be non- or less-observant.
I am not sure whether it was wise to have kids fully integrated even i the second scenario, but it is definitely wise to teach the kids that there are people with dignity and purpose that may not be wearing same hat as you.
“When I was a teenager I thought that 99% of people had really good marriages.”
And what makes you think otherwise now?
As a child, I thought that people who dressed chasidish or yeshivish were automatically more trustworthy than those who didn’t. I later realized that not only do murderers like Helbrans and molesters like Walder hide behind their clothing, they use that implicit trust to victimize others.
UJM-bh I have an amazing marriage. I guess getting older, knowing too many people personally going through difficulties. As a kid I thought everyones marriage was great like my parents.
On the other topic- my parents do kiruv, growing up all types of people lived in our house, I made many types of friends, my parents allowed it because it was under their supervision; on the other hand because my parents were so aware of what’s out there they were even stricter with whoms houses I went to.
Dear Avira,
Yeah I thought so. That halachah line was weird. This conversation is not for me.
You find it weird that Hashem would give us halacha to follow because it’s what’s best for us and that sin is harmful? Hashem gave us mitzvos that are arbitrary? Some muslim philosophers believed that, that was their version of chukim.
Ever go to 6th grade day school and learn that treif is metamtem es halev? I learned that in an MO school.
The mitzvos and halacha are called an aitz chaim, they are ki haim chayenu…this is “weird”?
That’s how seforim explain the difference between yiras shomayim and yiras chait; yiras shomayim is fear of Hashem, either punishment or awe of His greatness, and yiras chait is fear of the spiritual damage of the sin itself.
That’s what we have gehinnom for, to cleanse us of the lichluch hacheit.
If there’s anything “welrd”, it’s your notion that such basic judaism is “weird”.
Dear Avira,
Please follow. You posted “I believe halachah decides what is harmful…” and later “I wouldn’t want my kids in a spiritually, emotionally, or physically, unsafe atmosphere”.
These two quotes do not add up. The first line is weird in light of the second. I took issue with the first line. Maybe I’m being too literal.
By harmful, i was not referring to specifically physical. I think it’s standard expression that things like giving a kid treif, putting him in front of pritzus, etc, are harmful. Chazal often call sinning “kilkulah”
avira,
You bought into the lie that anyone that’s not Frum lives an empty life full of sin. Do you think a Secular boy is interested in discussing gender instead of sports or dinosaurs or playing cops and robbers (or as your kids play “Talmidei Chachomim and Apikorsim”)? Do you think responsible secular parents hand their kid an ipad with full internet? Young children do as their parents do and want to make their parents proud. That you think kids are having hashkafik arguments in their head shows you don’t understand how children think and learn. I go to a relatives house for Shabbos meals and some of us walk and some of us drive (& park right out front). My kids don’t ask why we walk and others drive, they simply know we walk and others don’t. Do you think these kids won’t be exposed to the outside world as time goes on? But it’s your assumption that kids discuss these things themselves or with other kids that’s wrong. How are there any Frum Chasidish kids in Williamsburg? After all every Shabbos they see people driving down the road. Do they play music Shabbos afternoon because they hear music on Shabbos? Of course not because they understand people live different lives and we live a life of being Shomer Shabbos and they’re proud of it.Kuvult – not agreeing with or opposing your global points but I work in public schools and your assumptions of secular households are very naive
There’s no assumption. I would hope you check out a Yeshivish house to make sure it’s a functional safe environment and I would hope you do the same with a Secular home. But if the house checks out regardless of background then what’s the problem?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Sephardim seem to have more united communities, with many masorti people who feel like part of am yisrael even if not always observant or learned.”
Admittedly I don’t have a large amount of experience with Sefardic communities. In my neighborhood, the Sefardim are overwhelmingly Israeli and speak Hebrew as a first language. And I notice that the native Hebrew speaking Ashkenazim also have a good camaraderie with the Hebrew speaking Sefardim. So it’s possible that a common Israeli language and culture in the midst of a foreign country help with the camaraderie we see, whereas many Ashkenazic families have been in the US for several generations now, struggling against or succumbing to assimilation. Feel free to prove me wrong – I’m just thinking “aloud” here.
“Possibly, we suffer the post-haskala shock that we probably need to get over already. Number of reformim, socialists, OO is not that high any more, most non-observant Jews are ignorami rather than apikoiri.”
Ignorance of Yiddishkeit doesn’t mean ignorance of other “isms” as well. I think the perception that their numbers or influence is going down is more due to our being increasingly sundered from them than an actual reduction. When I was growing up, many non-Orthodox Jews (myself included) knew grandparents or great-grandparents who were frum, and had good memories of seders, or Shabbos dinners, despite feeling rather lost and confused. Nowadays for many secular Jews, there is R”L absolutely no connection to Torah Judaism whatsoever. Judaism is defined as the Democratic party platform and appropriating the Passover story for social justice causes.
Kuvult,
“You bought into the lie that anyone that’s not Frum lives an empty life full of sin. Do you think a Secular boy is interested in discussing gender instead of sports or dinosaurs or playing cops and robbers (or as your kids play “Talmidei Chachomim and Apikorsim”)?”
Lol, you castigate avira for crudely stereotyping of secular Jews and non-Jews, but then turn around and crudely stereotype frum Jews.
Kuvult-
Yes- Kids need to learn to be friends with and respect other people regardless of their “type”
Yes- Parents should vet all houses they send their kids to (it’s easier to vet houses from people your type)
But- Parents should be super careful when sending kids to houses more modern due to outside influences, especially since kids these days are exposed to everything with no boundaries.
That doesn’t mean that they can’t play together and be friends- just it might be in my house, and not in the other kids house, under my supervision so that I can be more careful.“an empty life full of sin”
No torah, equals no value, equals emptiness. Not keeping the torah equals sinfullness.
Is it possible to be sin free and close to hashem(fulfillment, actual fulfillment, not self righteousness) without the Torah? Is the torah “extra credit”?
On a minute -by-minute basis, a secular jew commits one sin after another. Every time he eats, lives in rooms without mezuzos, every day without tefilin/shma/davening, every shabbls desecrated, every marrital relation an issur kares, every wall in the street full of forbidden gazes
A sin is an action, thought or speech against halacha. Or is it just stealing and cheating on taxes?
Better a community that puts up with Chilul Shabbos and not fraud than one that is Machmir beyond needed in every area but gives the man who commits govt fraud for school funds, welfare fraud, bank fraud or tax fraud an Aliyah on Rosh Hashana and throws him a big party when he gets out of prison.
Syag is correct. Theres no point discussing Yiddishkeit with people who other and denigrate those not like them.
B”H I was sent a video of a sports league run by a (not Frum) community group. Approximately 60-70% of the kids are mainstream Frum kids and the rest are not Frum (or a few not Jewish). The kids are randomly split up, not by Frumness. Almost all the coaches are not Frum. B”H there are mainstream Yeshiotherpe parents that have retained a sense of normalcy. One picture that warms my heart is a Frum boy with a velvet yarmulke and a not Frum coach with long hair talking to him with his hand on his shoulder. Do you think the coach was telling him to not be Frum? Do you think when a Frum and not Frum boy are on the sidelines they’re discussing religion? It’s great seeing Frum and not Frum boys smiling with their arms around each other. It teaches both sides how to get along with each other and will serve them both well in the future.So now we go from tolerating non frum or objectionable friends and their families…to having role models who lead lives devoid of Hashem. Seriously? You’re proud of a kid gettinf guidance, submitting, and learning from a person without Torah?
Firstly, that’s shelo kadin. Shulchan aruch says openly that we cannot send our kids to learn a trade from goyim, because they will be influenced.
It’s shocking, and i don’t get shocked easily on this forum.
The fact that supposedly “yeshivishe” people do something means absolutely nothing if it’s shelo kadin.
Kuvult – I’m sorry, you seem to have taken my support and run with it far past the boundaries. My comment is that they have absolutely no idea what you are describing because they have no reference for it. I also commented that you were naive in thinking that secular kids fill their time with the same things frum kids do (for sure overlap, but not as a whole)
But once you start with the racism – giving aliyos to all the fraudsters – it is obvious you aren’t who you were trying to make yourself out to be. I used to use that party line too, and the aliyos given to jailed individuals sickens me still, but you have decided to go the antisemetic “this is who your contemporaries are” instead of accepting that it isn’t a community characteristic.And I backed you when you said that a long time ago there were less differences and a place to make room in each others lives because of the gains. But you wrongly have stretched that into ‘goyim are no different and my kids can immerse themselves in their lives without consequence and thinking otherwise is bigotry”. Unfortunately that isn’t true. And I would be shocked if you even thought it was.
you started off able to talk to someone who valued Torah and the people it was given to. Respecting other Jews does not have to include meeting them where they are at.
With all that, I still don’t condone the black and whiteness that gets portrayed by people who have already mentioned they are not parents and are talking speculatively.
That you think there’s a problem with Frum kids playing on a team with not Frum kids and coaches shows more about you than the parents. What do you think the coach is telling him? How to make a play, to go out and try again, or Biblical Criticisms?
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