- This topic has 28 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
How does hishtadlus work? I am wondering due to a shayla I recently asked – Story below:
I worked to achieve something and it didn’t happen (partly due to a misunderstanding). I decided that “I did all I can and it must not be meant to be”…. Then someone mentioned to me a novel idea of how I might be able to enlist someone else to help me with another attempt. I was concerned that this might be “too much Hishtadlus” so I asked a Rav.
His response: “Your not mechuyav to do it altz hishtadlus but you can do it if you want to….”
I may be really dumb but I truly don’t understand what that means. If hishtadlus says not obligated then what good can come from doing the effort ‘for fun’?
Am I missing something?
Does this Rav have Semicha on Hilchos Hishtadlus?
fluffyandcrunchy
First of all cute name. Lol. Well the way I understand it is that there are certain things that are mandatory for Histadlus, there is a chiyuv to do these things within reason and then Hashem will grant you success or not depending on what He knows is best for you.
Certain things are a bit extreme or extra Hishtadlus, and not the ordinary requirement. Meaning, most ordinary people would have given up at step A and you are taking it to step B. So once you did what most ordinary people would do, to be successful in this thing then you have reached the minimum chiyuv of Hishtadlus. That doesn’t mean you cant do more. Hishtadlus is a minimum.
I once heard Hishtadlus expressed as follows: You are obligated to do everything you would do if you were a card-carrying atheist.
Basically, if I understand correctly, hishtadlus is linked to ones level of bitachon. The higher one is, the less he will want/need to do to fulfill his gashmius’dige requirements. (he will probably also be happy with less, and won’t fret if things don’t work out the way he hoped.)
Easier said than done – hope this helps though.
If you didnt understand what he meant then ask him… Maybe thats why the two of you had a misunderstanding. Never be afraid to say I didn’t understand what you meant. Please explain yourself Thats how u learn.. In my opinion The rav is simply saying in whatever case this is there’s no Halacha stating that you should or shouldn’t .. “If you want to” meaning…-bechirah choose what you want… With finding your zivug there is a certain amount of bechirah… Your hishtadlus is to find your zivug through bechirah.. Your choice will be what level you are on. There is no Halacha about what level of holiness you should be on.. We are in this world to grow and become the best we can be.
‘His answer did nothing but confuse me….’
Not to compare your rabbi to g-d but Bechrah is on such a personal level that a rabbi cannot advise…
The wrds are blk and white my friend:
CHOOSE! And may Hashem help you in whatever direction you choose to go in.
fluffyandcrunchy
“@ JustARegularJew: “I once heard Hishtadlus expressed as follows: You are obligated to do everything you would do if you were a card-carrying atheist.”
Says who?
Doesn’t sound like a kosher hashkafa to me.”
Rabbi Benzion Shafier from the Shmuz says this. He deals a lot with inyanim of Betachon. If you want you can call his live Radio Show which is every Wednesday night between 8-9 pm Eastern time.
Basically he explains that one must do what is normally expected to do and put Hashem out of the picture so to speak. You do the physical show of going to work, looking for a job…whatever. But it has to be done 100% knowing that the results are NOT up to you but totally in Hashems hands. That means one is obligated to go to work and work a full day and do what any non Jew would do to make a living(as long as he isnt doing anything against the Torah). The only exception he has is that since we are Jews, we must make time for Torah, Tefillah and our families. Other than that one must go about it 100% as if Hashem is out of the picture. This is for 99.9999999% of the population. Maybe for Rav Shteinman and Rav Chaim Kanievsky the rules would be slightly different and they can do less Histadlus. But for all regular people this is the requirement.
Okay, I have a clearer picture now — if I’m “interpreting” this story correctly. Your Rav does not want to push his opinion on you as this is something you really want and you might be resentful if not given another shot at it. And nobody can determine what level you’re on for you because you always have the option of “rising above”.
Many people when faced with such a quandary of indecision decide on what I”ll call “creating a test”. For example you decide that if the first person you approach to help you with another attempt says yes then it’s a go. If not, you drop the issue. Of course you can design another logical “test”, but stick to your guns afterwards. There’s also always the option of “gorel”. The idea is to not be too “pushy” and while not relying on nissim also not trying to be fully in control, which isn’t our job here.
Good luck!
Can whomever is using HaLeiVi’s screen name please return to your own.
The way it was explained/taught to me is that if Hashem wants you to have something, you put in hishtadlus to actualize your bakasha, and at the same time you understand that it is Hashem’s doing and not yours that decides.
It isn’t about “upsetting” G-d by doing His job, it is a matter of thinking that it really is in your hands after all and more hishtadlus would make it a better chance.
When you say you want to achieve your objective, the question is, do you really want to achieve YOUR objective, or do you want what Hashem believes is good for you? Should He give you things because you asked, or do only that which is best?
Hishtadlus, as I understand it, is about putting forth the effort to show yourself and Hashem that you are not expecting open miracles (something for nothing), but putting in repeated efforts may just be a show of thinking the efforts are the source. When the Rabbi said that you ‘could if you want’, I think he was assessing where you were at (as you asked) and assumed that if you did not put in more effort/hishtadlus, you may worry, ultimately, that a negative outcome was due to lack of effort and he was sparing you that anxiety.
I know it is hard to squish such a ‘big’ subject into a small space so I may not have been too clear, but I figured I would make my hishtadlus and hopefully Hashem will make it understood 🙂
I don’t know if there’s a real answer to your question — it’s more a question of hashkafah that depends on who you ask. I would think about it this way. If this is something you really want, ask yourself why? If you don’t think you have improper motives, and your gut is telling you really want it, then there’s nothing wrong with being persistent and trying again and again. It’s not a coincidence that yidden gave the world the concept of chutzpah. You should also of course daven for guidance — Hashem will give you hints about what you should do.
yytz – well said.
I never knew Hishtadlus was meant to be such a deep, or complicated, concept. It was introduced to explain that although ultimately Hashem decides if you will succeed, you can’t sit back and wait for it to happen. I think JustARegularJew meant just that. You don’t know what Hashem has in store for you.
The Pasuk says, ??? ?????? ?????. The Mishna refers to Parnasa in terms of chasing it, ?? ????? ?????. The Gemara says that a person doesn’t know with what he’ll be Matzliach.
Knowing that all is in the hands of Hashem, you learn when to stop. When your opportunity starts to bump with Avodas Hashem, you know you hit the wall.
There is also a concept of getting the feeling when it is time to lie low. When there is a trend of failing investments, ?”?, don’t throw more money at it. Wait for a better opportunity.
And lastly, there is a concept of someone who has a level of Bitachon that he feels that doing more is not in line with Bitachon. This is a delicate aspect, being that it is all to easy to fool yourself. ???? ??? ??’ ????? ??? ???? ????. Yosef Hatzadik was taken to task for enlisting human help, whereas if one of us would turn down such an opportunity we would be called a Shota.
What your Rav probably meant was that there is nothing wrong with trying more, but if you don’t, it won’t be held against you as if you didn’t try. While it is important to do what you can, you also know what you are holding by. Past that point you defer to Hashem. Dovid Hamelech, who was able to fight went out to fight, and asked Hashem to help him win, Chizkiyahu, who wasn’t able, said, I’m going to bed and You save us.
Much Hatzlacha.
There is an amazing story worth repeating here.
HaGa’on R’ Dovid solovietchik, Rosh Yeshivas Brisk/”R’ dovid’s” was vacationing in switzerland many years ago, when he met a wealthy yid of hungarian descent. the yid was happy to meet a son of the brisker Rov, and at the end of the conversation handed the Rosh yehsiva one thousand dollars, a massive sum at the time. The Rosh Yeshiva explained that he does not wnat to accept the donation, [at the time it wasn’t so easy to transfer money from foreign countries] if Hahsem wants me to have this money he can bring it to me in eretz yisroel too. The g’vir was so impressed that he later donated the entire building for the yeshiva, and still covers singlehandedly over half the yeshiva’s budget!!!!
Obviously this level of bitachoin is unsuitable for a regular person.
GG – or it may have been good fundraising tactics.
FandC – the Maharal writes that all hishtadlus is in its essence k’fira, but is permitted to us as a subjective and temporary measure in order to live, while we work on increasing our bitachon. The word chiyuv may be inappropriate here; it is a heter to those of us [i.e. all of us] with insufficient bitachon. The chiyuv is to successfully live, and fulfill your ksuba. A person must honestly assess their level of bitachon and go from there toward the absolute requirement of providing for their dependents.
FnotY, that sounds a little funny to me and i’m unfamiliar with such a Maharal. He doesn’t speak of Bitachon in terms not doing a Parnasa. If you know where it is please post it. It sounds very yeshivish to flippantly call things ‘Kfira’.
Haleivi – I don’t have the source offhand; I heard it five years ago from a RY of mine. I can try to find it.
When I used the word kfira I meant in a logical sense – doing physical actions when in reality they do nothing – is in its essence a statement that we believe they do something.
The obvious counter-argument here is that Hashem wants us to do the [otherwise] meaningless action, rendering it a correct action.
The answer is, that in a utopian world – i.e. like Adam in GE, or to a lesser extent Jews in desert, – no hishtadlus is necessary.
The only reason why for us it is necessary, is because we are not on the level of the relationship and trust that existed in those situations.
Hence, hishtadlus, is a necessary evil, permitted to us while we work on our relationship to need it less and less.
As far as whether there are other shitos than the Maharal – I’m sure there are.
BTW everyone assumes that my screen-name is my statement about what I am. It is intended to be a statement about what I think is important. It was a reaction to the name of this website more than anything else.
fluffyandcrunchy-
i learnt in koheles that the more bitachon u have, the less hishtadlus u need. and the less bitachon u have the more hishtadlus u need. rabbi channina ben dosa x have oil for shabbos so he had bitachon and his viniger burnt.
Interesting find on Revach.net
Parshas Vayeishev: Chazon Ish – Bitachon & Hishtadlus, What They Are & What They Aren’t
Yosef was punished with two years additional years in jail because he asked the Sar HaMashkim to mention him to Paroh in the hopes of gaining his freedom. This request, says Chazal constituted a lack of Bitachon. The Meforshim ask that Yosef was merely doing Hishtadlus and trying to procure his freedom through normal ways. Isn’t Hishtadlus not only permissible but required? To understand this we must first understand the true meaning of Bitachon and Hishtadlus.
Does Bitachon or reliance on Hashem mean that when I am faced with a problem I must be confident that things will turn out the way I’d like them to? No, says the Chazon Ish. Bitachon is an offshoot of Emuna, and the definition of emuna is that I believe that nothing in this world is by chance and everything is directed by the hand of Hashem. It follows that no matter what situation you face you must believe the outcome is the will of Hashem, and that Hashem can bring any outcome he desires without anything standing in His way.
So back to our question. If I am facing danger I can’t know if I will be saved, but I must believe that whatever happens is Hashem’s will, and since Hashem only wants what’s good for us, whatever happens is by definition good. There is no bad outcome to any problem.
So then what is Hishtadlus? How can my efforts change what Hashem knows is good? One would reason that the only Hishtadlus needed is to daven to Hashem, for everything else is for naught. So why would I work on my behalf at all? The Chazon Ish explains that Hashem wants us to take action that in the eyes of the the world seem to achieve our goals because Hashem wants to run the world according to the laws of nature. Hashem wants to remain hidden as much as possible and not need to reveal His hand in running the world.
This seemingly logical explanation has far fetched implications in dictating how we must behave with regard to Hishtadlus. Since Hishtadlus means achieving our goals in a perfectly natural way, it rules out any action that has only a remote possibility of succeeding. If one takes action that has little chance of working or doesn’t make too much sense that is not Hishtadlus. Once something falls out of the realm of Hishtadlus it becomes an act of desperation and is forbidden since it shows a lack of emuna. It shows that you don’t believe Hashem can solve your problem and will do anything to help yourself however remote.
The proper way to solve your problems is to daven to Hashem and hope for his salvation. At the same time you should take normal steps to solve your problem. Anything beyond that is a waste of time and a lack of emuna, so don’t take a desperate shot in the dark. It will hurt you spiritually and won’t help you come close to your goal even one iota.
Rav Dov Yaffa says that the Chazon Ish explained that this was the charge against Yosef for asking the the Sar HaMashkim to remember him. A minister of the stature of the Sar HaMashkim is not of the nature to return favors by humbling himself and rehashing his shameful past before the king. Yosef’s request crossed the line of Hishtadlus and bordered on desperation, and for that he was punished.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.