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I don’t think that is responsive to my point. My point is that when you buy ice cream which is certified, you would have no way of knowing if one of the ingredients is Drambuie which under goldersgreen’s bubbe maisa would only be approved.
To make this more likely, imagine the approved thing was cookies, and the certified ice cream was cookies n’ cream.
I like Kedem 144. Also Joyvin, Malvasia (both types) and Matuk Kal on Pesach.
I don’t think that is responsive to my point.
Maybe you didn’t understand. Shall I explain it with a moshol? 🙂
My point is that when you buy ice cream which is certified, you would have no way of knowing if one of the ingredients is Drambuie which under goldersgreen’s bubbe maisa would only be approved.
My point was that I don’t think Drambuie should be approved without certification, because the flavorings are kashrus sensitive. A moshol for that would be cookies, which are also kashrus sensitive. They wouldn’t allow them to be used in ice cream without certification. Whereas, the sugar, which is not so kashrus sensitive, would be approved, not necessarily certified.
At one time, Drambuie was not certified, but was used in Europe. The kashrus experts in the U.S. with whom I spoke were very critical of its use without certification, and felt that the kashrus standards in Europe, where they relied on ingredient listings and some communication with the manufacturers, were anachronistic.
You are correct; I didn’t understand. I thought you were arguing that we should eat things which are certified but not which are approved. You are actually arguing we should not trust hechsherim which approve things without certification.
Ok, if you insist. I don’t agree; I trust them, and if they say it doesn’t need hashgacha, then it doesn’t.
I’m not making a broad generalization; I think it depends on the type of item.
Also, I never meant that approved is not good, just that certified is better.
I just read this thread and I’m curious as to why people feel that men and women have different tastes in alcohol and why women would necessarily want something sickly sweet as opposed to a good single-malt scotch.
Also, I never meant that approved is not good, just that certified is better.
Don’t backtrack here; you were doing better before. Now you are back to my previous problem that since the hashgacha relies on itself, you have no way of being confident that your certified product does not contain approved products.
you have no way of being confident that your certified product does not contain approved products.
That’s true. I also didn’t say hashgochas are perfect. We’re kind of playing the odds. I’m not backtracking (I used the word maaleh for certified, I didn’t passel approved), although I’m probably not explaining myself well.
Other than homemade, there’s no guarantee of kashrus even with the best hechsherim (the Satmar rov Zt”l didn’t like the term “mehadrin” for this reason). When we’re too lazy or busy to make everything from scratch, we try to get as close, in reliability, as possible. Of course it would be great to have mashgiach temidi for everything, but we don’t want to pay the price. So we employ all types of methods of keeping the food kosher al pi din, in the most economical way.
Even if one more step in the process is supervised, the level of reliability has gone up. So if there are legitimate grounds to be mattir, for example, unflavered beer without a hechsher, there is still a market for certified beer, as evidenced by the fact that there are now many beers with hechsherim (not muchrach, I know, because it’s good marketing for non-religious reasons as well).
Still, I would prefer popa’s home brew (it’s probably a thousand time tastier as well, but that’s besides the point). And I know that popa uses approved components, but we have a maaleh in one step of the process.
I’ll give you a moshol. There was once a king who needed to go to the bank to withdraw money. He walked up to the teller to withdraw money, and presented his ATM card. He was about to put in his pin #, when his trusted advisor told him (in pig latin) to cover the buttons so that the teller couldn’t see. Now, the computer techs at the bank could hack into his account, and so could some hacker in Nigeria (or wherever hackers are from). The advisor himself knows the pin as well, so the king could easily taaneh that there’s no guarantee that his money is safe, so who cares if one more person, the teller, has the pin? But it would not be a good taaneh, because prudence still dictates minimizing exposure to risk.
So too by us. Even if hechsherim rely on approved components when necessary, why wouldn’t I want something which was processed and finished (usually the most kashrus sensitive area) under supervision? Sure, if I was making a sholom zochor and couldn’t find certified beer, I would use approved. But when certified is available, I buy that. And if I had the time and know-how (and wasn’t afraid of explosions) I would make my own.
Sam Adams is the best domestic beer
And nothing beats a few shots of Tequilla
Sam Adams is the best domestic beer
Excuse my face? My very own ??? ???????, special reserve ale, is the very best beer in the land.
haha good name 😀
do you ever look at it and exclaim ???? ??? ???????
lol
Popa, that’s not fair, how’s he supposed to know that you live in the US? For all we know, you might live in Bavel.
Veltz meshugene
“Golders Greener, since you blatantly lied when you said that they don’t go to the factory, and then later acted as though that was a minor oversight, I don’t think that you have much credibility on this subject.”
I clearly explained that they do go to the factory on a yoitzei veniuchnos – i.e. unaanounced visits at all times of operations.
By the way it happens to be true.
Golders greener, i think you mean to say that thay do NOT go to the factore on a yoitzei ve’nichnas for approved products.
If you meant something else pleasse explain.
Popa, i can only rely on what i see over here and have heard from other european sources, but as i far as i have understood, the approved label, or lists, in europe, does not necassarily mean that they feel that it does not need hashgacha, but simply that according to the basic information they have they cannot see a problem. I am unaware if and when they actually visit a factory, but i found it hard to beleive that every hasahgacha has sent their own people to every factory on the list. Perhaps they rely on each other.
The reason for this is that the kosher consumer market is simply not big enough in europe to encourage any major producer – such as drambuiee – to agree to full certifiacation.
I am unaware of the requirements os shulchan Oruch, and what is needed.
Numerous people have assured me that they no self respecting hechsher uses complicated ingredients from their lists for fully supervised products, with the exception of sugars etc..
No offence meant, but to suggest otherwise is being ???? ??? on many choshuve european poskim – including R’ Chanoich ehrentrau shlit”a, and R’ heinoich Padwa zatza”l.
I have also been told that many of these rabbonim themselves do not rely on their lists, in fact apparently R’ Ehrentrau does not even carry in his own eiruv,
shoe store assistant, i did in fact to mean that thay do NOT go to the factories on a nichans ve’yoitzai basis – i suspect that the mods decided to change it.
BTW, R’ hennoch padwa zatza”l was on the kedassia beis din in london – a smaller hechsher serving the yeshivish and chassidish communities, not the london beis din, his hechsher did not produce a full list, only a much smaller list on medicines etc…
R’ ehrentrau does not carry in any eiruv.
I just saw this post and noticed people referenced to a website kosherliquorlist.
I checked out that site and noticed that they list Jameson Irish whiskey as “Kosher for Mehadrin – not aged in sherry cask”
This is not true. The Jameson website clearly says “Balance the sweet, nutty flavour from Sherry casks with the toasted wood and vanilla notes from Bourbon casks.”
This site is either outdated, or simply not reliable. For reliable information, go to the cRc Chicago’s website. They are on the cutting edge, constantly updating their list.
link edited out
Whatever liqueur you choose, put it in a chocolate shot-glass (on sale on groupon) let it sit, drink the liqueur, and then eat the shot-glass!
Do not post links
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