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Do you think living in Israel off parents is a spoiled thing to do? Or the sacrifices the young couple must make i.e. missing simchas, loneliness makes it a very unspoiled thing?
I have 2 married and 2 single kids living in Israel and they are very far from spoiled. They arent living in Israel to “live it up”. The sacrifices they make to learn over there definately makes them “unspoiled”. And just btw supporting them in america is way more expensive than supporting them in E”Y.
I think people should be free to choose where they will live regardless of how they are being supported.
Paying for it by themselves will make it an unspoiled thing.
I believe it is up to parents whether the kids are spoiled or not. If you just give them a credit card then you are spoiling them. If you give them a monthly budget that they have to stick to, then you are teaching them how to manage money and that they have to live within their means of support. That means that if they spend too much this month, they will suffer the consequences next month, and that if they want things they will have to budget for it. That is not being spoiled. In addition, if their parents don’t fly them in for every simcha, that is masir nefesh in a sense. So it is up to the parents to teach them the give in take for the privilege of “learning” in E”Y.
Oh please! The RICH ones who live in Eretz Yisroel have a MUCH simpler lifestyle than the POOR in America. Practically NOONE has a car, for starters, Everyone lives in an apartment. No has a playroom, study, 4 bath, 7 bedroom home. The lifestyle is so much simpler and more affordable, even without much help!
Aries- it is not called being “unspoiled” (if that is even a real word). It is called being an adult, something we do not teach our children how to be. Even when those children are considered old enough to be married and raise their own children. Don’t deny little kids some “extras” in life for the sake of “preparing for adulthood” or “preparing for chasunah”- but we should make our children self-sufficient adults! Since when has it been ok for parents (or grandparents) to be paying for their children’s expenses??? I know plenty of people who were told “if you are old enough to get married, you are old enough to support yourself”. This is not getting into the learning/working debate, rather into a self-supporting one.
Who cares zaidy if “rich in E”Y are living a simpler life than in USA”? it is their choice to live where they want, as far as THEY can afford it! I am tired of children planning out their future based on what their parents can contribute to the couple. they are not children anymore and lets let them grow up!!!
I don’t believe parents should be supporting their married children regardless of where they live. Living in Israel, our homeland is an honor and privileged. Walking the streets of our forefathers, living and seeing our history more than makes up for missing simchas, and family. Young married couples can learn and work part-time to support themselves.They will appreciate what they have much more than if it is just handed to them like a monthly paycheck.
havesomeseichel, I am not a big proponent of parents supporting kids. Personally I believe that a man is mechuyav to be mepharnes his own family. But I am not judging parents who choose to support their children in learning. That is their decision if that is what they choose to do. On the other hand, children who expect or force their parents to do that, in my humble opinion or over the one of the asarah hadibros kibud av v’em which is higher up on the chain than the mitzvah of learning Torah.
meir is right, if you want a shidduch some form of monthly support is expected.
“sacrifices” that word is hilarious. 75% of the couples there the sacrifice is made by the parents killing themselves to support the choushuve couple.
what kind of craziness has this world come to? HOW has our world come to this? WHY should this be so? WHEN has it ever been this way? We value history and historical precedence so often- named one time when this was true! Since when have we gone “because the Jones (or weiss or shwartz) family does it we have to too??
Meir- this is why there is a shidduch crises out there. and a reason so many yidden turn to criminal acts. and a reason so many Jews have medical issues like depression and heart attacks at young ages (around when kids are getting married?)— people cannot afford it. Rabbonim are giving prices out to their talmidim (you are worth X)- how can we label someone with a price? Why am i only worth X years support but not a car too?
I still cannot understand this. I have been trying to wrap my head around this for years now- why? why? why?
arc-
Thats complete lashon hara. And completely false. Where are you getting that statistic of “75% of couples”? How many people do YOU know living in EY?
Trust me – almost every couple living here is sacrificing. And anyone who hasnt done it will never understand so I’m not going to bother explaining. Suffice it to say that there is a big reason that it says that EY is “nikneis al yidei yissurim”. Life here is hard. Really really hard.
And besides- if parents are going to support, they are going to do it regardless of where the couple lives.
I will agree that there are quite a few couples in EY who are vactioning and would definitely be called spoiled. But its still extremely hard to live here and those people would be even more spoiled if they lived in America.
Life here is hard. Really really hard.
I agree it’s harder in some aspects, but there are certainly trade offs. I would not trade my life in E”Y for my old life in America. Life here is simpler. My kids learned so much more in 3 years of being here than they ever would have learned in America. However, E”Y is not a third world country. It’s just different, and the sooner one recognizes that, the sooner the klita will become much smoother. If you make aliyah with your eyes open, you know to expect this.
from the couples I see here in Ramat Eshkol and other “honeymoon villages” many (if not most) of the couples are living it up on their parents expense. When I speak to the kollel guys I am amazed at their attitude they speak about support like it’s coming to them. I do find that the couples that are here for long term/forever are much more moser nefesh and live much simpler. They are also usually much more self sufficient because for them life has already started and they can’t rely on daddy’s checks forever. (as opposed to the rest who are here on an extended honeymoon.)
so because they cannot be mature, we should pay for them to vacation? Just because they will be “more spoiled” here in USA we should pay for them to go? what does one have to do with the other? Grow up boys and girls! Its hard to live here? try living anywhere else, in any other generation!
There is definitely sacrifice. For one they are not near thier doting parents. Not always to they come home to give birth. If they are being supported, the parents would spoil them here too. Support is not the topic today.
Mamashtakah-
It doesnt make it any easier to live here just because your kids learned more. I do agree that there are trade offs though, and Im happy to live here despite the tremendous hassle that it is. There are tremendous benefits- we’ve really grown alot from roughing it on our own out here (neither of us have any relatives here).
Yeshivaguy1-
I dont know which couples you hang out by, but perhaps its time to spend some time with serious people. There are much more of them, trust me. I dont know why you only get the picture from the few spoiled brats that are here on Daddys unlimited credit card.
Havesomeseichel-
Try it. You’ll see right away that it is no vacation. Until then, dont jump to conclusions. Trust me- it would make my life much simpler if we can pack up and move to Lakewood or something…but for various reasons it is best that we are in EY right now- and we grow into much more mature people than those who live around the corner from Mommy and are still tied to her apron strings. Those people barely know how to make a shabbos (let alone 3 3 day yom tovs in a row) for the first year they are married. Theres no way they can handle lifes tough decisions while they are still so dependent on their parents….so please dont tell me about mature.
whatrutalkingabt, I was talking about honeymoon villages like ramat Eshkol. It’s filled with couples who come have a kid or two and then go back In the mean time they party it up. They go to first seder if they are not too tired. Or better yet they join one of these yedidim programs where they “learn” with weak bochurim. Another way of saying pure battala “but you’re helping the kids they need someone to shmuz with them in the bais medrash or they would never walk inside.” Walk through Ramat Eshkol how many of the american couples are planning (seriously) to stay. They are here to party and (maybe?) learn. You should hear them talk about their sacrifices, “the meat in Israel is not as good so when we have the weekly bbq the steaks don’t taste the same.” “my father only flies us in Pesach, the summer and midwinter vacation it’s so hard being away for so long” Its a pity the (two year) honeymoon is not perfect. Whether the whole thing is right or not is a different question but don’t start talking about mesiras nefesh. Mesiras nefesh are those american families that I see all the time with a bunch of kids and they live extremely simply and they all wear hand me downs and somehow they make it work with no money from their parents.
I can go on about this but it’s getting late
Honestly this loshon horah has gone far enough. Maybe the parents want them to learn for a while and this is the arrangement they made. We don’t know and WE should not be judging. IF the parents have nachas from them learning at whatever level they are, AND they choose to support them in that way, it is really WRONG to say these things and put them down. It is between the parents and the children what they choose to arrange.
Parent who do NOT wish to extend this honeymoon period to their kids SHOULD NOT do so. Parents who wish to check up how their funds are being used, should do so as well. The rest of us should mind our own business!!!!
yeshivaguy:
Wow! I learned in Israel (as a bachur) and I was in Ramat Eshkol many times.
Maybe there are two places called ramat eshkol, because that was not the one I saw.
popa bar abba, how many years ago?
The location of honeymoon villages tend to shift over time. It could be that during your day it was the area with cheap housing that it used to be before the honeymoon couples discovered it.
aries2756 I didn’t say it was necessarily wrong just that don’t call it mesiras nefesh
whatrutalkingabt – we have something in common – we have no relatives here either. The friends we made here are our family.
Actually, Yeshivaguy1 isn’t totally wrong. There’s a huge turnover of apartments every new zmanin in Ramot Eshkol and Maalot Dafna, because so many of those apartments belong to couples where the husband is in the Mir for a few years, and then they’ll come back to the states, and either go to Lakewood, or maybe he’ll go into business. In the meantime, many of the parents have redone their Israel apartments beautifully, which of course, makes them very pricey when they flip them.
As far as whether or not all the husbands are truly learning, I’m certainly in no position to say. The same guys described above as just hanging out would probably be doing in the same thing in the USA. Our kids made aliyah, and a good part of what they love about Israel (among many, many others), is that it’s not goshmiyos oriented the way the USA is. They live very simply. But my daughter was never into the designer mentality that so many of our BY girls are into – remember the story about the woman who asked, after seeing a group of frum girls on a camp trip, whether it was a religious requirement to wear Ralph Lauren skirts?
What “seems” to be mesiras nefesh for one might not be mesiras nefesh for someone else. For one woman mesiras nefes is giving up her own washer dryer or dishwasher. For another it is giving up her housekeeper. For one man mesiras nefesh is giving up his own car or his leather seats. No one can judge what something means to another person and what mesiras nefesh means to another person.
For some young people “mesiras nefesh” means leaving their family behind or not having their mothers around especially when they give birth. Or not being able to pick up the phone and speak to either their mother, their sister or their best friend whenever they want to. For another it might be not being able to run down to the corner for a grocery item they forgot to buy. For a young man it might be not jumping into his car to get to yeshiva or chap a minyan on the corner. Or maybe even learning with his father or with his best friend.
Not everyone was cut out to learn all day, and for some young people go to shiur only part of the time is a big accomplishment and if their parents choose to support that it is between that family. If that couple gave up their family to be masir nefesh to just go to learn part time in E”Y then for them it is masir nefesh.
The point as always is “what is the point of judging other people and why do we have to?” No one knows what goes on behind closed doors or the reason why people do things. Everyone has their reasons and everyone is judged by Hashem no one else should be doing the judging. So why should we mind their business for them, and why should we even speculate about them.
If we want to discuss how we are moser nefesh, or how our parents are moser nefesh, or how people we know are moser nefesh that is great to give them that recognition. But why do we have to sink so low as to discuss people we know or see that are not living up to the standards that we set or to standards we would like to see. What is so great about US if WE do that and what is so great about doing that?
aries, I really like that post and agree with your points about mesiras nefesh and judging others.
Yeshivaguy1-
There are definitely people over here that are like that but thats a minority and besides- thats not in Ramat Eshkol. Its in Arzei and Machal and Maalot Dafna.
I really dont know where you are getting this info about Ramat Eshkol. As far as I know, Yam Suf is in Ramat Eshkol and is filled to the brim with serious, yeshivish, kollel yungerleit, who even if they are only here for a couple of years are seriously learning the entire time and grabbing every oppertunity for growth over here while they still can. They go home once a year for pesach, they dont ever have steak BBQs, and they show up to every seder way before the american bochurim do.
There is so much mesiras nefesh going on with these couples, that I dont know where you get the audacity to suggest otherwise.
And might I ask, if you are a yeshiva bochur in EY, where you are getting internet access from so often?
whatrutalkingabt- you’re right it’s moving more to machal but I was just generalizing in the neighborhoods; I meant the general area. I have a cellcom internet piece.
yeshivaguy1 you spend your spare time in EY online while im assuming the point was to grow in a purer enviorment, and ur criticizing those who yes, are probably taking advantage of the trend, using it for a honeymoon,but arent u doing the same thing? was this passtime your parents’ intention when they sent you to EY?? or what people think when they hear that a boy went off to EY to learn?? it seeems to me you are doing the same thing as some couples are. and then there are the yeshiva boys and the couples that are there for the right reasons and usually people can figure out from hearing them talk about their days or from meeting/talikng to their friends what their EY is all about. so i assume if a parent is paying for a couple to live there they are aware of their kid’s motive-it will become clear if u spend some time on the phone with them…yes there are those who’ll be able to hide it but most will not, and then its up to the parent if he wants to pay for it becase its a norm or because he can afford to happily do it, or if theey don’t want to do it.
but yes it is annoying to see some couples living like royalty in EY, but i dont think its diff than the couples in NY doing the same. theyre spoiled in the same way just asked for diff things.
Again I didn’t say it was wrong just don’t sit there on your high horse talking about mesiras nefesh for torah.
Yeshivaguy1-
Im saying its wrong. Yes its very wrong to live it up in EY and pretend that you are learning. Its wrong for a yeshiva bochur and its wrong for a kollel guy.
And Im also saying that its mesiras nefesh for those couples that do it the right way. (That isnt everyone but it is the majority)
I am actually learning part time and in college the rest of the time. Nobody who knows me is under any illusions that I am learning full time. I am trying to grow at my pace and where I am holding in life it does not include being cut off from the world (besides for the fact that I need internet for college and side research). Yes, Israel is a much purer environment and if I have to be learning/in college I would much rather be doing it in Israel. But going on yeshiva world while doing homework or researching a paper is in no way hindering my spiritual development
going on yeshiva world while doing homework or researching a paper is in no way hindering my spiritual development
Inasmuch as you only read Popa’s remarks.
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