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You are a parent you are raising a nice yiddishe family you have 6 children the oldest Shaindy is 16 the next two children are twin boys Nosson and Yehuda they are 14, Nosson is an excellent student in Yeshiva his Rebbes write glowing reports about how he shteigs and sets a good example for the younger bochurim.
At home Nosson is a bit different he objects to doing any chores he wont take out the garbage or clear the table or get the clothes from the dryer he pretty much refuses to do anything to help the family and yet he insists on getting an increase in his allowance and getting more privileges later curfew and what not, now naturally his siblings feel it is unfair for them to do extra work while he does none at all, his defense to his behavior is that he will one day be a talmud chochum and these things are beneath him.
So what do you think should Nosson share the burden??
Yes
Derech Eretz Kadma Latorah.
How could you expect him to do household chores? You as the parent did not prepare him for the real world and he will probably go off the derech if he has to haul the trash to the curb.
depends…if he’s doing nothing? maybe. if he’s learning? should he stop learning to sweep the floor? no by learning he is SHARING THE BURDEN
So you should just let your child act like a spoiled brat? Its not only about learning torah its also how you practice it. I dont think behavior like that is how one should practice the torah.
And do you really think that he would go off the derech because of something so trivial as taking out the trash?
yeah, share the burden…
He’s a kid. He should absolutely be doing the same amount of chores as his siblings. I don’t care if he’s going to be the next Michael Jordan. He needs to learn how to share the chores with his siblings so he can grow later on in life!
this is a bad example.
Utah, you did not pick up on my sarcasm.
I think the haredi argument is very flawed, as you astutely point out.
guess im bad with humor in writing w/e
Ship the kid off to the military. Let him get some discipline.
Secularfrummy is right, send him to the army, they’ll whip him into shape… Better yet, shoot him
Nosson does not understand that by doing household chores he is being mekayem at least two mitzvos dioraisa– kibbud av va’em and ve’ahavtah le’reyechah kamochah. Explain to him, in a gentle and calm manner, that every day for a little while, it is very important to stop studying and do some maasim tovim, putting your learning into effect in the real world.
Don’t send him to the army. He might shoot you.
youre right. this story is so convincing, im gonna go right now and enlist. are you high?
He says he will one day be a talmid chochom. OK, so when he grows up to be a talmid chochom, at that point he can discuss with his wife whether or not household chores are appropriate for him. Right now, he is a kid just like any other and he needs to take responsibility, not make excuses.
He also needs to learn that actions have consequences. If he won’t do his chores, he doesn’t get allowance (he wants an increase? he hasn’t even earned the basic allowance that he was getting before!) or a later curfew.
Not yet a parent. So how’d I do? 😉
Yehuda shouldn’t work either, they should make the sisters do all the work.
That will make Yehuda become more of a talmid chacham.
Oh brother (pun intended). Make this brat cash a reality check. Some of the greatest Gedolim did NOT find it beneath them to sweep the street. ALL the members of the household need to pitch in to make things run smoothly. I hope this was just a theoretical scenario. A kid who really knows Torah does not wait to be asked for his help.
The more he will be a talmid chochom the more he has to do chores.
The Goq,
is it bad because it is not a good comparison or is it bad because it conflicts with your viewpoint.
I know this thread is two years old, but my feeling is that your OP moshol does not make a completely fair comparison. There is a world of difference between taking out the trash (2 to 5 minutes), clearing the table (5-10 minutes), changing the laundry over (2-5 minutes), and army service, which is 2-3 years immersed in an environment that is frequently hostile towards chareidim. I think the essence of your point, that those who benefit should also contribute in some form, stands, but the moshol you provided trivializes the chareidi viewpoint.
Avram in MD, to put it perhaps more simply: There is no religious objection to taking out the garbage. There is profound religious objection to joining tzahal.
To further illustrate the quantity flaw in the analogy, I would suggest a more accurate one: You want to have Yehuda take a job in a grocery store for eight hours a day to contribute to the family income. Share the burden.
If Nosson is claiming special privilege status based on the fact that he’s “going to be” a talmid chochom, then he is showing an arrogance and lack of humility that may prevent him from ever actually becoming one.
As an aside, I’m reminded of the story regarding R. Yaakov Kaminetzky. A young kollel husband said that his wife wanted him to take out the garbage at night. He said, however, that, as a Torah scholar, it was beneath his dignity to do so. He asked R. Yaakov what the halacha was. R. Yaakov ruled that, indeed, he may exempt himself from such duty.
The next night, there was a knock at the door. When the husband opened the door, he found R. Yaakov standing there, ready to take out the garbage for the husband so as not to degrade his (the husband’s honor). The husband got the message.
The Wolf
There have been many tzadikim, i personally knew one who knew the entire shas and was well respected, he did sponga every week before or after shabbos to help his wife. he was an alte mirrer in shanghi and despite the many hardships and his pitching in he made it to very great heights in torah and he had exemplary derech eretz, so i would think the tzadikl can pitch in a bit too
Frankly, the Mashal is insulting. Nobody claims that other should do their work for them while they sit back and relax since they will one day be Talmidei Chachamim. Nor does anyone claim that others should shoulder their share since the ARE Talmidei Chachamim. The country from its inception – as decided by the secular leaders – recognize that one who IS learning is at the very least sharing the burden – if not carrying the lion’s share. (This, by the way, is reflected in the laws of a democratic country. Does anyone think that the Chareidim are “controlling” the Israeli government? That smacks of general anti-Semitism.)
Furthermore, the Mashal feeds the dangerous and libelous assertion that Chareidim are “parasites” who contribute nothing to society, but rather expect that, as their due, others should slave away for them. This utterly ignores many inconvenient truths, such as the fact that the overwhelming majority of Chareidim work and pay taxes, and that they run hundreds if not thousands of Gemachim from which religious and secular benefit alike.
A more apt Mashal would have Nachum humbly and graciously performing his chores along with his siblings, only to have them claim that he deserves to receive nothing but stale bread and water since he does not bring any money home.
Too much.
Of course he has to help. Being puffed up with self importance will make him insufferable.
Perhaps the parents shouldn’t ask him to do the chores if he’s learning
But in no way is he justified in refusing when asked
he did sponga every week before or after shabbos to help his wife.
my husband never does any housework to help me. he does housework for himself and the upkeep of the house. just like i do.
(pet peeve #476)
Housework is the duty of the housewife. A husband should help sometimes.
in your very small daled amos, perhaps.
In your feminist amos perhaps not.
You’re both wrong. Housework is the job of Nosson, Yehuda and Shaindy.
You must mean homework.
there is not an ounce of feminism in me, my household or my life. If anything, i am pretty anti-feminism. And since we have already had that discussion i will consider this a validating demonstration of your long standing preference for your mistaken assumptions over truth.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
I was actually just annoyed at the off-topicness and trying to get you both to stop.
a better moshol would be if the parents pulled nosson out of yeshiva and sent him to public school for 2 years, where he’d have issues with kashrus, tznius, shabbos, and finding time to daven and learn. MNosson’s parents are good people, and just want him to have a good secular education. Sadly, they don’t understand the value of Torah and are too disconnected from their roots to see his perspective.
and ‘methinks’ that answer is obnoxious. you accuse me of something that i find highly offensive and i explain it isn’t true or accurate. you chose to ignore social rules by accusing me again, and then when I take offense at both your rudeness AND disregard, you consider that too much protesting. It seems you don’t really understand the phrase (you have misused it in the past), too much means more than the required amount. that would mean more than two for two.
It also seems that when you are wrong you chose to be offensive or change the subject.
Right or wrong, neither of you will successfully convince the other.
Good night, Good night! Parting is such sweet sorrow, that I shall say good night till it be morrow.
convince the other of what?
That you are right and the other is wrong.
And why the Shakespeare?
about what?
convince the other of what?
You will not convince him that you’re not a feminist, and he won’t convince you that you are.
i dont need to convince him that i am not something. and i was asking rebyidd because i am sure s/he hadnt a clue what s/he was commenting on.
What difference would it make, if that is indeed true, which I neither confirm nor deny?
i dont need to convince him that i am not something.
That’s good, because you probably wouldn’t succeed anyhow.
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