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Let’s celebrate that apikorsim desecrate the makom hamikdosh FYI popa_bar_abba I well comprehend just how short human memory spans are, so just let me remind you how many million times worse was the desecration of the Makom haMikdosh during the tragic 19 years &n 23 days that the Makom haMikdosh was tragically in Jordanian hands.
Therefore it was our Privilege & Obligation to recite Hallel on this 47th Yom Yerusholayim.
Yom Yerusholayim Sameach to all & everyone.
147, there were apikorsim rebelling against Hashem there?
popa_bar_abba I well comprehend just how short human memory spans are, so just let me remind you how many million times worse was the desecration of the Makom haMikdosh during the tragic 19 years &n 23 days that the Makom haMikdosh was tragically in Jordanian hands.
You seem to forget that nothing has changed in that regard.
Popa bar abba your stupidity knows no bounds. We are celebrating the incredible neis of winning the impossible 6 day war and reclaiming yerushalayim into Jewish hands for the first time in thousands of years. If not for this the Arabs would have completely wiped us out of Israel killing hundreds of thousands of us. Your lack of hakaraas hatov is disgusting
I am ready ready to punch you.AGAIN!
Popa bar abba your stupidity knows no bounds. We are celebrating the incredible neis of winning the impossible 6 day war and reclaiming yerushalayim into Jewish hands for the first time in thousands of years. If not for this the Arabs would have completely wiped us out of Israel killing hundreds of thousands of us. Your lack of hakaraas hatov is disgusting
Don’t confuse issues. I am very thankful for the neis of winning the 6 day war, and of not being wiped out.
I’m even thankful that we reclaimed Yerushalayim. However, it isn’t this latter part is worth it for the chillul Hashem it causes. How do we balance Kiddush Hashem and Chillul Hashem? Do we just say that what makes us happy is also what is good?
Popa: You’re partially right. The current situation at the kosel is definitely not the ideal that Hashem has in mind for us during the geulah sheleimah. However, we should be very afraid of committing Chizkiyahu’s mistake by NOT praising hakadosh baruch hu when it is appropriate and timely- lest we lose all the beautiful gifts of mekomos kedoshim, kivrei tzadikim, and every inch of eretz hakodesh that He has gracioulsy given to us. As the saying goes, you’re only grateful for something once you lose it. I hope Hashem never has to teach us that lesson….
MachaaMaker, do you deny that there’s a downside to having the Kosel in Jewish hands? Or do you not care?
I’m also not sure why you think it’s okay to make a personal attack. You may not like what popa said, it was certainly controversial, but he didn’t insult anyone personally. (For the record, I have similarly criticized personal attacks against posters I don’t usually agree with.)
You may not like what popa said, it was certainly controversial, but he didn’t insult anyone personally.
False. He insulted me personally. My being is bound up with that up Yerushalayim’s. He insults Yerushalayim, he insults me.
Daas yochid I don’t understand why there would be a downside to having the kosel in Jewish hands Kindly enlighten me
Meh. PBA is baiting people and people are taking the bait. There’s no need for this to happen in this (or any) thread.
I vote Popa starts a new thread titled, “In which I bait the Tziyonim”.
PF, he didn’t insult Yerushayim either.
MM, Women of the Wall, the fighting it causes, Jews ascending Har Habayis (chayav kares), pritzus near the holiest place on Earth.
Sam, at least spell it right – Tziyoinim.
PBA, how do we counterbalance the chillul Hashem caused, with the fact that a large number of unaffiliated Jews have come closer to Hashem through the inspiration they received at the Kosel (think of the tremendous work of people like R’ Meir Schuster, z’l), which creates a huge kiddush Hashem?
He insults Yerushalayim, he insults me. = Psalm 137:- “Im Eshkochech Yerusholayim >>> Tishkach Yemini” is what Pulsing Flower was essentially & correctly so saying.
Pops is not the ???? of that ????.
I have it heard it said in the name of R Shach, ??????. I heard this from a Rov who was a talmid.
I’m not insulting Yerushalayim, to the contrary, I’m standing up for her.
And I’m not trying to bait anyone. I’m in earnest here.
There is something very black-and-white and extreme about your position. You act as if it is a purely good thing that we control Har Habayis, and that there are no downsides. In doing so, you fail to even consider whether the downsides are worth the upsides.
?? ???? ????????
More like ?? ???? ??????. The supreme court and the government decide who is allowed to make a chillul Hashem there. Today they say this much chillul Hashem, tomorrow they say that much.
You think Rav Yaakov would have been dancing if you had told him then that 40 years later the conservative would be using the kosel to feif un Hashem? I’m sure he wouldn’t have. Would he still have been happy? Probably. Likely.
But you all act as if now is the time for ???? ???? ????.
I’m not full of ????. It’s good; I’m glad I can go there; I’m glad for the regular kiddush Hashem that goes on there. But this isn’t a happy little wedding. It’s a wedding where half the family is trying to break the shidduch. And you don’t dance so geshmak at that type of wedding.
147, except that he didn’t insult Yerushalayim.
PBA: I find it interesting that the anti-Zionists (like HaKatan) will claim that things Rabbonim said before Israel was founded will never change, even if the circumstances change.
Yet in this case, you’re claiming that circumstances have changed since R’ Yaakov zt”l was dancing, and therefore we shouldn’t take a lesson from it.
Sam2,
Meh. PBA is baiting people and people are taking the bait.
Ha. Both 147 and DaMoshe are smart people who have been around the CR for a long time. They both know very well what type of responses are likely to certain posts. With his response, popa_bar_abba was giving them what they expected, and possibly wanted, for whatever reason.
DaMoshe, do all things fall into the same category? Or could it be that one thing is constant but another changed?
Putting aside the stale pro-zionism anti-zionism argument, can you see the merit in what pba is saying, that it’s not wholly good, and not wholly bad , but a mixture?
I do not align myself with hakatan’s views on everything.
Nor do I accept the notion that because gedolim were opposed or supported something 50 years ago, that their opinion would not have changed if they had seen what the thing had developed into.
I follow the shoftim asher yihyeh bayamim haheim.
DaMoshe,
PBA: I find it interesting that the anti-Zionists (like HaKatan) will claim … Yet in this case, you’re claiming
I understand that you don’t like it when all Modern Orthodox are painted as YCT style open Orthodox. In the same respect, you should avoid painting everyone who has a different perception of events in E”Y than you as NK style anti-Zionists. What bearing does HaKatan’s arguments have on what popa_bar_abba is saying in this thread, which isn’t about Zionism per se but rather activities and behaviors near and on Har Habayis?
PBA: There are downsides to everything in life. There are even downsides to doing Mitzvos (that’s what the Gemara says- the good people are the ones who weigh the reward of doing the Mitzvah over the downsides and do it anyway). But we acknowledge in life that some things are so good that we, for the most part, ignore the downsides. We don’t complain about how much money an Esrog costs. So too we don’t complain about this.
And, even if you will say that we need to discuss this and point out the problems so we can solve them, can’t it be that you take one day out of the year to give a special Shevach for the Neis that occurred on that day? Complain about the Chillul Hashems 364 other days of the year. Chazal pointed out the errors that Beis Chashmonai made. That doesn’t mean they stopped celebrating Channukah.
Why are the Mods not posting my post from 3 hours ago?
because it’s a story about how you celebrated yom yerushalayim by being metamei the har habayis.
(there, I posted it for you. He went on to har habayis while he was a tamei meis.
PBA’s position is well backed up in our mesorah. See Ezra 3:12-13 about the matzav during bayis sheini. {??}????????? ????????????? ????????????? ????????? ???????? ??????????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????? ??? ????????? ???????????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ??????????? ?????????? ???????? ??????
{??}?????? ????? ??????????? ???? ????????? ??????????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????????????
Many of you refuse to acknowledge that history, hashgacha, and human emotions are complex. Why is it so ridiculous to be happy and sad about a complicated event
The fact that Hashem gave us Yerushalayim and the Kotel is a great gift. Yes, some people don’t treat it properly, but that doesn’t take away from the gift we received, and doesn’t take away from the hakaras hatov we must have.
It’s like the government funding yeshivos. Sometimes we hear that people affiliated with a yeshiva got in trouble for stealing funds. It creates a chillul Hashem. Does that mean we should be against the government for funding the yeshivos? Obviously not!
Let’s look at the good that Hashem gave us. If you have issues with the actions of some people, take it up with them. Don’t lose the appreciation of the gift from Hashem.
Mods: regarding the Har HaBayis, yes, most chareidi Rabbonim hold it’s absolutely forbidden. But there are some who hold there are certain areas we may go to (such as R’ Tendler). I’m not endorsing or attacking those opinions. It’s never been a question for me, so I never asked my Rav what he holds. But if ymbyi is a follower of a Rav who holds it’s allowed, then there is nothing wrong with him following that psak. If I was going to Israel and wanted to go onto the Har HaBayis, I’d ask my Rav what he holds, and would follow what he told me.
To the Mod:
I was being Metamei the Har haBayit???
I went up in Kedusha according to Halacha and with the consent of a major Gadol Harav Shmuel Eliyahu shlita who was there and encouraged us and gave us a bracha!!!!
edited
Are you the Mod of YWN greater than HaRav Eliyahuy??? Do you know his father the Holy Mekubal HaRav Mordachai Eliyahu also supported Jews who went up according to Halacha!!!
If I transgressed issur karet, than I am in good company because so did the Rambam. Perhaps you feel your are greater than the Rambam as well.
Lastly even if you will use the argument that we dont know where the Mikdash was it certainly was not attached the Kotel Hamaravi!!!! That is not even a possibility according to anyone!!!! As I explained we were waking along the other side of the Kotel on a short path and there is even a dispute if the area we were walking on is Harodian addition, which does not even have Kedushat Har Habayit.
So there you accused you a Jew of sinning without justification, which is Motze Shem ra and Rechilus, which is for sure a Torah transgression worse than most others.
Mod: There’s no Issur of being on Har HaBayis B’tumas Meis. There’s an Issur of being a Tamei Meis in certain parts of Har HaBayis. The discussion nowadays is whether we can tell which parts of Har HaBayis are allowed and which aren’t.
Learn more Torah, work on your middos and be kind to your fellow Jew!!!
Has it been forgotten that we are still in galus?
To Dial :
I am sorry to break the news to you. Learning more Torah, having better Midot are essential to being a Jew. However these things alone will not build the Mikdash and do not relate to this discussion.
This is about having Hakarat Hatov to Hakadosh Baruch Hu.
As Hagon HaRav Yisrael Ariel says: How do we build the Mikdash??? WITH OUR HANDS!
As others have mentioned, people used to go to the kosel long before the Zionists started making problems in Eretz Yisrael (well before 1948).
So all the Zionists accomplished with “Har HaBayis BiYadeinu” in 1967 was to undo a very, very small part of the damage that they themselves, the Zionists, did up to and including 1948. That’s besides for the cost in Jewish blood, other issurim, etc. that it took to both inflict that damage and to undo it.
So the perspective of the kosel being a 1967 “gift from Hashem” is faulty and short-sighted as well. That “gift from Hashem” was always there, and it is the Zionists who lost it in 1948 in the first place.
The Zionists are true to form in celebrating this day, like the Satmar Rav’s mashal of the arsonist bringing a hose after setting a massive fire.
DY: It’s a nice point, but I’m pretty sure R’ Shmuel Eliyahu is a Bar Hachi to argue. So other tremendous Rabbonim can fight it out all they want, but people have Al Mi Lismoch (unless it’s Mamash R’ Shmuel against the world, in which case presumably he would be Modeh himself).
In summary:
PBA- it’s better to reject the bad even if it means ignoring some of the good.
Sam2- it’s better to recognize the good even if it means accepting some of the bad.
but I’m pretty sure R’ Shmuel Eliyahu is a Bar Hachi to argue.
I’m pretty sure that R’ Yitzchak Yosef disagrees with you.
Simcha- Are you intentionally misunderstanding popa? He clearly stated a few times that he is happy for all that has happened to Israel and the miracles of the war but upset that apikorsim get to be metamei our mekomos kedoishim. One does not override the other- they are both reality!
PBA:
I agree that circumstances, tactics and practical matters could change, such as, perhaps, voting in Israel’s elections, for example.
Meaning, if there is no inherent issur in doing a particular action, then that is something for whoever is the “shofet” “baYamim haHeim” to weigh and conclude if there is, in fact, any issur in doing so at that particular time and place, etc.
But there is no way to, for example, retroactively kasher [founding] the State which was and is a blatant violation of multiple issurim including a violation of oaths and (even the Zionists admit this and grapple with it in YU’s latest “To-Go” publication) pikuach nefesh (or, as the Brisker Rav held, the entire Torah).
The gedolim paskened as such having nothing to do with what Israel would or wouldn’t develop into and nothing can later make kosher what was a paskened unequivocal issur.
So what did you mean by “Nor do I accept the notion that because gedolim were opposed or supported something 50 years ago, that their opinion would not have changed if they had seen what the thing had developed into.”
It is important to realize that since Iyyor 28th is the Johrzeit of Shmuel haNovie, and it is the same date that the incredible Neiss of “Har haBayis beYodeinu” transpired, so it doesn’t take too much to correlate that Shmuel haNovie must have been an exceedingly powerful advocate @Kissei haKovod to implore haShem to restore the Har haBayis & the Kossel to its rightful place as part of Am Israel and have we Yehudim praying at the Kossel.
To be clear, it is absolutely forbidden to establish a Jewish government in E”Y before Mashiach even if the goyim all insist that we do so, but all the more so when it requires force and human sacrifice.
The Maharal held that even if the nations force us to create a State it is forbidden to do so, yehareig viAl yaavor. Even the sources that Zionists twist in a vain attempt to support their state, such as Rav Meir Simcha in the early 1900s after the Balfour declaration, did not allow war as a means of obtaining the ability to settle in E”Y nor did he speak of the formation of any governmental entity.
Interestingly, there were rabbis who, for example, initially supported Chovevei Tzion but, when they saw what had happened, later dropped their support. Whereas gedolim like Rav Hirsch, for example, held all along that even this movement (never mind Zionism) was “no small aveirah”.
In other words, “…asher yihye baYamim haHeim” is relevant only to matters that could change or are dependent on a particular assumption or set of circumstances, like, according to some, Chovevei Tzion. Depending on where the movement was up to, it could possibly be permissible to join.
But if something is outright assur, regardless of time and place, like Zionism and founding the State of Israel, then it’s always outright assur and “asher yihye baYamim haHeim” is irrelevant because the “shoftim” of later times cannot possibly pasken any differently because it is simply immutable.
“The Zionists caused the loss of Jewish access to the Kosel and Yerushalayin from 1948.”
The anti-Zionist lies get bigger and bigger. Zionists in the Old City were fighting the Arab rashaim who would have killed every Jew, Zionist or not, had they had the chance. (And they did just that at Kfar Etzion.) Jerusalem was under siege but rather than consolidating forces in more defensible areas the Zionists desparately tried to save the Jewish presence in the Old City and did not surrender until there were just a few dozen healthy fighters left. The Zionists included the entire spectrum from Shulamit Aloni who would eventually become the vitriolic anti-religious cabinet minister in the 1990s, to then-rabbinical student Shear Yashuv Cohen who would serve as Chief Rabbi of Haifa for decades.
It is unlikely that Charedi participation in the resistance would have changed the outcome as the Zionists had so little equipment and ammunition. But a little hakarat hatov would be in order.
You are all only focusing on the fact that we were given back yerushalayim, while that is amazing and seething for which we have to have hakaraas hatov for, that is not the only part. The entire Arab world was trying to completely wipe us out and the odds were seemingly insurmountable against us. The outcome is an obvious neis, that we were victorious in only 6 days, and it saved the lives of every single Jew in israel
Charlie:
Since you mentioned it: no, the Zionists were wrong to fight in Yerushalayim during the war. Had the Zionists stayed out of Yerushalayim, which was to become an international city, Jordan would not have entered the war as agreed with the UN and there would have been no fight.
As to your claim that “Arab rashaim who would have killed every Jew, Zionist or not”, it is the Zionists who shot at the Rabbanim who tried to surrender to the Arabs against the wishes of the invading Zionists rather than have the Zionists wrongly and needlessly sacrifice more Jewish blood for their Zionist war.
To the point: Jews were able to daven at the kosel prior to the Zionist invasion of E”Y in the early-to-mid 1900s. In fact, the Chevron Massacre occurred because the “Religious Zionists” insisted on controlling the Kosel rather than listening to Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld who begged them to be grateful that the Arabs didn’t stop the Jews from davening at the Kosel and to not antagonize the Arabs by insisting on Zionist control of the Kosel, back in 1929.
The “Religious Zionists” didn’t care and, ultimately, the Arabs murdered the non-Zionist innocent Yeshiva students as a result.
Again, Jews were able to daven at the Kosel prior to 1948 and it was the Zionists who caused them to lose that access.
Throughout Jewish history any time a community or group was saved that day was commemorated as a Yom tov with simcha and hallel. This is no different, just on a larger scale
charliehall: But if they hadn’t organized and angled and fought for sovereignty and a State for the preceding 50 years then there wouldn’t have been a war that caused our loss of access.
Hakatan: that was directed at my scenario. I agree that in your example where we are talking about history that it should have followed the shoftim of those days.
PBA:
Thank you.
MachaaMaker:
This is very different. A small-scale local European Haman haRasha cannot be compared to the monumental and long-lasting tremendous Zionist folly in starting up with and provoking the Arabs against all logic and against the gedolim’s wishes and still losing thousands of Jewish lives then, tens of thousands more human sacrifices over the following decades, and endangering Jews worldwide, CH”V, etc.
That’s not a Yom Tov; that’s a Tisha BiAv. The Zionists are, of course, “liShitasam” here; they celebrate their own lag baOmer as Bar Kochba’s victory against the Romans when we, of course, mourn that saga on Tisha BiAv as that false Mashiach and Beitar’s resultant destruction resulted in literal rivers of Jewish blood, the greatest loss of Jewish life in history until the Holocaust.
MachaaMaker:
In other words, if a group of people choose to play in traffic and, in the process, make an unprecedented chillul Hashem in doing so and Hashem is kind to them and some of the cars stop for some of them, then that’s not a reason to make a yom tov like a little Purim established in the past.
Regardless, these sevaras are irrelevant because the Chazon Ish and other gedolim considered it not a purim katan but, its polar opposite, a tragic day, like Tisha BiAv, and he deliberately said tachanun on “Yom haAtzamos” even when he had three brisos that morning.
MachaaMaker:
The 6-day war was not a neis, as mentioned above. You can see this for yourself if you go to the CIA’s web pages about this war.
Again, Zionist believers should at the very least not believe every lie spouted by the Zionists; that 6-Day War in 1967 was no miracle.
It is absurd for otherwise intelligent and thinking people to simply believe indisputably non-factual Zionist propaganda as “Gospel truth”.
HaKatan- just because there was nothing supernatural doesn’t make it not a neis. Nothing supernatural happened on Purim either, to the untrained eye it was all teva, but we recognized that that was a neis nistar. Mainly because Klal Yisroel were saved from the serious threat of massacre. One can argue the same thing by the Six Day War. The Jewish People (at least those that lived in Eretz Yisroel) were saved from a threat of extermination. G-d saved us through miraculous, arguably hidden, but miraculous nonetheless.
For the record, while I don’t necessarily agree with your views on Zionism, I also don’t view Yom Yerushalayim as a Zionist holiday. I celebrate the victory from a murderous enemy, and the freedom of Yerushalayim from the hands of those who closed it off to Jews. If Yom Yerushalayim happened in the same way with a Goysih army (the UK defeated the Arabs and saved the Jews, they also took control of Jerusalem from the Arabs and gave the Jews access) I would also celebrate it.
Simcha613:
If you are comparing Israel’s 6-Day war to the Purim story, then your understanding of one or both of those is clearly different than mine. (But I’ll try to clarify.) Just because Purim was a neis nistar, that doesn’t lessen the actual neis. Nor does that make every war won into another Purim.
Again, regarding Israel’s 6-Day war, there were no nissim. And, in case the CIA’s web site is not clear enough, there was no “threat of a massacre” and there was nothing miraculous about Israel’s wars.
See the CIA: they knew Israel would trounce the Arabs, even if attacked on three fronts simultaneously.
You are simply trying to promote this fallacious Zionist nonsense.
Again, comparing it to the Purim story is ridiculous and makes a mockery of the Purim story, for that matter.
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