Yom Kippur and Atheists

Rav Amnon Yitzchok has an incredibly CLEAR way of explaining these concepts.

Good question!!!!!

Why do you want to prepare for Yom Kippur? Do you believe the RBSO seals your fate on that day? Who says so if not the Torah?

lets just say Its a 50/50 chance that the Torah is divine ( even though it takes a couple of minutes to show anyone that the Torah is G-d given.

If I am right that the Torah is divine then you will get Kares if you do not fast Yom Kippur. If on the other hand you are right but you listend to the Torah all you lost is a day of not eating.

So in simple terms for a smart calculated decision it is pretty clear you have nothing to loose and everything to gain by fasting.

And beg G-d to send you the correct guidence. The worst sickness a person could have is that he doesnt even realize that he is sick

Hashem yerache alecha val kol yotzei chalothecha I bench you with a gut yar !

If you believe in Hashem Daven to Him to help and guide you in the right direction.

My question is how to do tshuva when one is not convinced that he did any aveira.

Even if you’re not sure that God exists, and therefore are in doubt as to the validity of the mitzvos, surely, at some point during the year, you wronged your fellow man. You can focus on that.

The Wolf

Yungerman,

I am in a position similar to yours, except my emotional attachment to those beliefs is somewhat less. Just go along with what makes you feel good. If you “feel” an attachment to God by going to shul etc. on Yom Kippur or if it makes you/ your wife feel good then do it. Some introspection and thinking about how you can improve yourself and make yourself a better person is a good thing even if there is no God and/or Yom Kippur is a man made holiday.

I am not trying to argue this point, merely attain clarity on the question: “My intellect tells me that Yom Kippur was made up”. -made up by whom? Why and when was it made up? Please respond.

eclipse- There are many very smart people that would agree with the intellect of the OP, so finding someone really smart to explain things to him/her would not accomplish much.

Ferd on Drugs- “Made up” by the same individuals that “made up” the rest of religion.

live right- You asked, “and if Yom Kippur was “made up”, how do you account for all the Jews including the non-religious who feel compelled to observe it in some way?”

How about the 1.57 billion (23% of the world’s population) who believe in Islam? Or 2.2 billion Christians?

ok this is gonna be long and possible a tad complicated so keep bear with me

i completely hear your prob and i had the same prob not to long ago you must take time to sit alone and think honestly to yourself if what you know now about judaisim is enough that a rational person NOT YOU PER SE but another different rational person would say that the odds are its true NOT that there is proof of any sort but just a reasonable amount of evidence that would make a rational person of a court of law compelled to say its true or at least CAN be true now when you come up with your answer… if its yes then ask yourself 2 questions 1)are the questions that im asking really bothering me as questions or are they maybe just whisps of and yes i hate to say it but OCD lingering within me for if it wasnt ocd why then would i not feel this way more often about many other parts of yiddishkiet (granted yom kippur makes sense to feel this way more but so much so that you cant get yourself to say a few words on a page? that even according to you mean nothing?! if you were to ask a non religous jew who isnt against judaisim but just not a believer he would be able to say the words without a problem maybe not mean what he says but say the words nonetheless)

if your answer is no then you must say to yourself this ” i came to this conclusion through logic, now logic would as well dictate that if i had on one side of the scale a good reason to believe that something WASNT true and on the other side even a tiny tiny chance to believe it was (which btw even richard dawkins would agree there is a tiny tiny chance) and as well on the side to believe it was the promise of eternal happiness (gan eden or at least not gehinom) then that vs the other side of nothingness after death; the side with eternal anything will win bec its ETERNAL so by definition its worth the risk of going to that side bec the promise is forever so the risk is worth the return! so all the more so if its just one day of your life!”

there is more to say on this topic but tell me what you think of this first

ps. just a side point, if this does come from a touch of ocd nothing anyone will ever tell you will help you must be completely and rigorously honest with yourself and ask yourself what a rational 3rd person would make of this evidence that may be the only way

>> How about the 1.57 billion (23% of the world’s population)

>> who believe in Islam? Or 2.2 billion Christians?

These religions are based on Torah and include the Seven Noachite Mitzvot — all that is required from non–jews.

BTW the 23% of the worlds population that are christians and the far more 2 plus billion that are Muslims all believe in the concept of Yom Kippur since they blieve in the “Old Testament” they just believe they superseded it or got it wrong depending which one.

A widespread disbelief in Har Sinai in what is termed the “Developed World” is kind of a new “happening” starting about 250 years ago.

Sort of like the Mabul, archeologists reveal a pretty widespread story amongst anient civiliztion with a core that revolved around the world being destroyed by a flood and one man being saved and saving the animals with him (ex. Thee Epic of Gilgamesh) it’s a recent post enlightment development that there are those who wish to dispute it.

Ben Levi,

There are houses that have been standing for more then 4200 years (when the mabul should have happened according to the Mesorah) There are trees that have been alive for longer then that. Some of the Pyramids are older then that. There are paintings that have been around for longer then that.

These are just some of the problems with the Mabul story. There are many more.

lakewood001: If a tree (not a sapling) was created during the first week of creation, fully grown, with say, 100 xiphoid rings/layers, how can scientists be THE ONLY ONES WHO DETERMINE ITS AGE? So the alleged age of anything can’t be solely based on scientifc criteria. Do you agree?

Lakewood001 – Are you saying the mabul didn’t happen? There was no Noach and the teiva and that whole story?

oy1: you know that each ring signifies a year, right?

Asking the question about trees is kind of old isn’t it?

I did’nt really try to debate you about the accuracy of the Torah.

See the last post we had about this you seemed to be trying to articulate Theory that the Torah was written at the time of Yoshia.

The theory you articulated happens to one of four basic theories advanced by “bible Critics” the one you wrote about seemed to be the one advanced by Finkelstien.

Do you know why there are four not one?

Because the problems with each of them are so vast that it makes them seem silly. problems that make the questions of “tree rings” pale in comparison since it’s pretty easily understood that a0 there are plenty of ways explaining them (Hashem made the world grow back pretty quickly after the Mabul in an unnatural way amongst others)

The one of the “emergence” of the torah at the time of Josia is acknowledged to be problematic because of several problems

a) it is built around several pesukim in the Torah essentially saying that the Torah is littered with lies ch”v excluding those few lines.

b) It fails to account for the dissapearence of the Cannanite tribes suddenly with no explanation.

c) discounting the Mabul leaves no method of explanation how so many ancient cultures had a tradition of a Flood destroying the Earth with a single survivor that are uncannigly similar to the Mabul, even though these cultures seemingly had no contact with each other.

d) there is an actual archeolgical find of a recording of Sanncherib’s (Taylors Prism, found by Col. R. Taylor)battles that seemingly exactly verifies the accuracy of the account in Tanach which preceaded the story of Josiah indicating that it was very real. In addition

e) There is no logical explanation why the Torah records the “defeats” and failings of the the Jewish People in such great detail when the practice of all Kings at the time was to record a National History that included only triumphs.

f) The more that is dug up the more is found to verify the accuracy of the Torah in a historical sense.

Ex. 1)At one time it was thought the Torah speaking about the Hittite empire was a “myth” yet a hundred odd years ago the remnants of the Hittite empire were found and confirmed.

2) The Toah repeatedly gives detailed lineages and archeologists have acknowledged repeatedly that the Historical record shows the names used were current only in the time period they were given but were cmpletley forgotten hundreds of years later making it hard to believe that the text using those names could have been written later.

3) The theory is requires theat in a sense the Jewish people at the time of Josiah were small and not very literate in order for the hoax to be pulled off the proponents of the Theory claim David and Shlomo were in a sense “tribal Chieftans not Kings of Empires.However recent Historical finds have increasingly point to the extremley tenous possiblity of that.

4) If Dovid HaMElech and Shlomo HaMElech were made up then there is no explanation why Nach goes into such great detail about aveiros they commited again something that was comletley contrary to the practice of the period.

5) there is ample evidence of various events described in detail in the Nach such as the fall of Yericho. Yericho was acknowledged to have been found and the dig revealed a city that had been destroyed exactly as described in Yehoshua. True Kenyon claimed the dates were off however Wood has a host of reasons pointing as to why her dating methods were wrong (they were based on the absence of age specific pottery and radio-carbo testing has in fact verified Wood’s dating that the downfall occured in the proper time frame.

To sum it up there is a whole host of problems that can only be rsolved by accepting the historicty of TaNach from an archeological sense there is very little that has ever been found to contest TaNach. What has been found repeatedly actually verifies the accuracy of TaNach most of the questions are more from lack of evidence the actual evidence against. However the amount unexplored is pretty astonishing there are tens of thousand of cuneform tablets that have been found and only a fraction that have been explained.

Why doesn’t anyone answer lakewood001’s question? Don’t you ameratzim know the mishnah “Da Mah Lehashiv Leapikores?” Instead of telling anecdotal atheist stories that prove nothing, address his points head on. If you make a good case for frumkeit, you will earn many zechuyos needed esp. at this time.

Yungerman from Lakewood-

As an atheist, it sounds to me like you ARE an atheist but can’t admit it to yourself yet. I’ve been there. I’m quite sure all religions are man-made as is Yom Kippur, of course. I go to shul for a short time for social reasons. While there I usually take a couple of minutes to reflect on my life, friends and family, and maybe to think about how I can improve myself and increase my contribution to the world. That’s about it.

oy1-

Telling someone questioning that they should speak to a Rabbi is an admission that you don’t have the answers. And I have news for you, none of these Rabbis are ever interested in having the discussion with an atheist whose knowledge goes beyond a high school student. I’ve approached quite a few of the most highly recommended kiruv/emunah Rabbis and none of them will talk to me once they see I have some knowledge.

You can’t explain how there can be trees older than the flood and yet go on in blissful ignorance while attempting to put down atheists ? You should ask yourself why you do believe in the face of even a single question about the torah’s divinity which you can’t answer.

Rationalfrummie.

I’ve tried ansewering lakewood001’s questions.

The last debate on these pages consisted of him asserting that there was something stated at the end of Sefer Melachim.

I spent a week asking him to please qoute the exact posuk he was referring to.

He could not.

Which makes sense since the posuk does’nt exist.

He was referring to a Theory popularized by some Bible Critics (which happens to have been proven wrong from basically every angle and the one who actually demolished it publicly is a non-jewish agnostic!)

Part of that Theory consists of “re-interpeting” Melachim to say what it does’nt say. So basically anyone who actually learnt the Sefer knows it’s not there but if the primary source is Finkelstien and you never actually looked at the real words of the Posuk you can’t find it.

Hance Lakewood001 is still claiming that in Melachim 23 it says something with no ability to produce the posuk that actually says it.

Pray to Hashem for the clarity and wisdom to get through this difficult time in your life. You stated that you’re not an atheist, but that you’re not sure you believe in Torah miSinai and therefore have trouble doing teshuvah for aveiros that “may not exist”. So focus on teshuvah for bein adam l’chaveiro, as WolfishMusings suggested, and as for bein adam l’makom, focus on building or rebuilding your relationship with Hashem. Ask him to send you the guidance and support you truly need. He is your Father. Just be honest with him and daven to Him in your own words if you can’t connect with the nusach.

Much hatzlacha. I will be thinking of you and hope you emerge from this trial stronger than before. Don’t let the haters get you down.

Ben Levi,

Why don’t you just answer my questions on the Mabul story?

I answered just everything else you brought up in the “why i am also still frum” thread. I’m not going through it again here. Anyone can read it there.

I look forward to your answers

Rational Thinker:

Nice job! I appreciate a good argument and but I can’t say you play your cards too well.

You question my unwavering belief in G-d and ask how can I who hasn’t answered for the fundamentals. Be ever so knowledgeable in attempting to refute him.

I for one haven’t answered a darn question.

So here you have it, I am very astute and well aware of the fact that atheists are intellectual seekers.

They happen to be wonderful people. I happen to have cultivated a friendship with a self-proclaimed Atheist. They want to find truth and are very motivated in their agenda. (READ: AGENDA!!)

The clearest and most apropos response is to speak to a Rabbi.

Personally, I have studied a multitude of text related to the fundamentals of Judaism.

My recommendation is given not as a cop out rather as a conduit for further growth and introspection. (READ: I don’t know the source or basis of his atheism)

I hope this message goes to whom it was intended. I truly pray that your Yom Kipper be a day of atonement and self introspection.

For the High Holy Days; I would suggest to go to a synagogue which has a scholarly Rabbi and operatic Cantor who will inspire throughout Yom Kipper.

We all need forgiveness, whether we believe or not!!! (that’s not from me that’s quoted from a legitimate atheist!)

Yungerman from Lakewood,

so I can’t bring myself to do tshuva for aveiros that I do not believe in.

What do I do?

Your problem is not isolated to people with doubts – it is a universal issue. When a person sins, most of the time he is not thinking “heh heh heh, I know I’m doing wrong but I’m doing it anyway!” Usually there are two conflicting desires within a person (I should give the $5 in my pocket to that poor person, but I really want to use it to buy some french fries later), a noble desire and a base desire, and the person rationalizes a way to fulfill the base desire, sometimes even convincing himself that he’s doing the right thing (the poor person will just probably buy alcohol with it anyway). So, in a way, at the time of the commission of the aveira, the person “does not believe in the aveira” as you said.

So how should you “deal” with Yom Kippur? The same way that all Jews should. Take some time to examine your actions (and the motivations for your actions) during the past year and decide whether all of those actions reflect the type of person you would like to be. Usually when we pare down our rationalizations, the true, base motivations for a lot of our actions can make us feel embarrassed. Feel regret for these failures, but tell yourself and Hashem that they do not reflect who you are. Think of something realistic you can do during the upcoming year that will help you to come closer to being the person you truly want to be. Pray for the time, health, and ability to do this work.

Please G-d I should be able to do all of this myself as well and that we will all have a year of sweet goodness.

One can pray in their own words saying that they would like to grow but are struggling and need some clarity. And pray please help us Hashem to figure things out so we can move forward in our growth.

There’s a good video By Rabbi Keleman called ‘A Rational Approach to the Torah’s Divine Origin.” On simpletoremember.com

Moderation on this site is not set up for the types of discussions you are interested in pursuing. I am closing this thread.