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rabbiofberlin -“health- the gemoro is in chulin 7B :”ein odom nokef etsbu-oi milmatoh elo im kein machrizim olov milmaloh” . Rashi mentions that the word means “to hit”. But it does not deal with punishment at all. It means that everything -even a small matter of hitting one’s finger’- is directed from the heavens. You see that from the pesukim from where the gemoro learns it. From tehillim (37): ” MeHashem mitsadei gever konnenu” And, if you look at anyone who discusses this, it is clear that we are talking about events ,not punishments.”
I’m sorry that you keep changing the Poshut Pshat to be right. The Gemorrah isn’t talking about any event, but only ones where you have pain. When you get pain in doing something it’s to remind you to do Teshuva and it’s also a Kappara. This is the way e/o learns the Gemorrah, even Artscroll.
And of course the Medina was a great thing and also the Shmadding of the Sefardim and stealing their babies – these were all Brochos from Hashem via the Medina.
HaKatan, Rav Tzvi Yehuda said that “religious” and “Zionists” are not separate terms. We are Zionists because we arwe religious and part of being religious is being a Zionist.
Health, actually it meas “a person does not move a finger”. “Nokef” is related to “lehakif”, which means “to circumvent” in the sense of “to circumvent the world” – to travel around it. In any case, it is clear that teh Medina is a beracha. The vast majority of the gedolim said so. The fact that there are things which need to be changed is the fault of the hundreds of thousands of frum Jews who did not heed Rav Kook and the Imrei Emet and come at the beginning of the Mandate when the gates were wide open. They continue not to come or, in many cases, come but do not become citizens and vote.
HaKatan – My original post was to point out that those who are most vocal against the State of Israel are generally those who say that the Holocaust was a punishment from HKBH for Zionism, but the success of the Zionist enterprise three years later was a Ma’ase Satan. Is there some masochistic streak in them, that anything bad that happens to Klal Yisrael is to be viewed as a deserved punishment from HKBH (for which they, of course, know the reason), while anything good that happens is viewed as a nefarious plot by the Satan to trip us up?
I can, in fact, postulate a different theory – perhaps the Holocaust was a punishment for not returning to E”Y when the Umos Ha’olam granted us the right to with the establishment of the Mandate by the League of Nations. As the representative of the will of the majority of nations of the world, moving to E”Y after the granting of the mandate would not have constituted “hisgo’arus ba’umos”, as the umos had explicitly granted permission for Jews to return. The establishment of the State was HKBH, in his infinite mercy, providing us with a second chance, with a TWO THIRDS majority of the UN approving the setting up of a state – so once again, no hisgo’arus.
There is no need to have all non-Jews agree to something for it not to be considered hisgo’arus, and it is not required for Jews to have no input on something that affects them – after all, otherwise, how would Jews be allowed to participate in any elections, even outside of Israel? Last I checked, the KJ populace has one of the highest participation percentages in the US, and doesn’t hesitate to throw its electoral weight around to get what it wants.
In summary – you have chosen a view based on your personal biases, and are unwilling to even consider anything else. “None is as blind as he who won’t see.”
A final point – you may want to look at the Chasam Sofer’s pshat in the whole story in Yirmiahu re: “Rachel Mevaka al Baneha” – it’s a beautiful pshat that fits with the Medrash and is highly relevant to this discussion. If I have time later today, I’ll try to post it.
An Israeli Yid
AviK- Thank you for bringing some sanity to this thread.
AnIsraeliYid; “tovoi olecho brocho” thank you for this courageous posting!
health; see above. And you are wrong in the pshat of the gemoro.
Thank you, RoB.
Re: the Chasam Sofer I referenced:
We all know the psukim in Yirmiyahu (part of the Haftora on the second day of Rosh Hashana) “Kol berama nishma”, which describe how Rachel is heard, weeping for her children who have been sent into Galus. Hashem then answers her saying that she should cease her weeping as there _is_ hope – “Veshavu Banim l’gulam” – the children will return to their home in E”Y.
The Medrash on these psukim explain that when the Jews went into Galus when Bayis Rishon was destroyed, all of the Avos and Imahos came to HKBH to ask for mercy, but were rejected – after the Jews had set up idols in the Beis HaMikdash, HKBH decided that they were not worthy of His Midas HaRachamim. Rachel then stood up and said, “When my sister was substituted for me when I was supposed to marry Ya’akov, not only did I not object, I gave her the secret codes that had been aranged with Ya’akov so as not to embarass her. Therefore, the same way I showed mercy when a rival was brought into my house, you should show mercy even though a rival was brought into yours.” Upon hearing this, HKBH conceded, and responded that yes, V’shavu Banim l’gvulam.
The Chasam Sofer has a serious question on this. Yirmiyahu was not the only Navi at the time of the Churban – Yeshaya and Yechezkel were Nevi’im at that time as well, and they too predict that there will be a Churban, a Geula, and the Jews will then return to E”Y – with no reference to Rachel needing to intercede to get this promise of Geula from HKBH. The question therefore is, what is Yirmiyahu telling us with this Nevu’a – what concession did Rachel “win” from HKBH?
The Chasam Sofer’s answer is beautiful. He says that in analyzing Yeshaya and Yechezkel, we find that they both say essentially the same thing – there will be a Churban, then a Ge’ula, then a return of the Jews to E”Y. The psukim in Yirmyahu, though, are different – there is _no_mention_ of there being a Ge’ula before the pasuk of “V’shavu Banim l’gvulam”. What Rachel had “won” with her arguement was a promise from HKBH that the Jews will begin returning to E”Y even _before_ there is a Ge’ula Shelema.
This was all written by the Chasam Sofer well before there was a Zionist movement, and in fact, the Chasam Sofer is generally considered the father of modern Chareidism. He is the “author” of the Chareidi mantra that “Chadash Assur min HaTorah” – and yet, this is his Vort. Based on this, can one still say that the ingathering of Jews made possible by the establishment of the State of Israel is really a “Ma’ase Satan”? HKBH uses many messangers; it seems, to my simple eye, that the secular Zionists were His unwitting messangers, and the State a tool in His hand, to accomplish His will.
May we be Zoche to the final Ge’ula Shelema B’Karov.
an Israeli Yid
To make a point similar to the one I made before. Avoda Zara has a halachic meaning. It is also used sometimes rhetorically to say something takes away from Torah and Yiras Shomayim. While it is fine to engage in rhetoric and hyperbole, it is important to know the difference between what is literal and what is not.
I don’t see any serious argument that Zionism in its religious form is Avoda Zara (are Israeli Flags assur b’hana?) in the literal sense. So please, if you are calling it “Avoda Zara,” clarify that you don’t mean that literally.
the gemoro very much talks about A”Z and zionism:
?”? ????? ???? ??? ??”? ???’ ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???”? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???’ (????? ??) ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???”? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? (????? ? ??) ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?’ ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???”? ????? ???? ????? ???
Besalel,
The word “k’eelu” indicates that the Gemara is using Avoda Zara in the non-literal sense.
One thing is certain, yeshivos need to start teaching history of Zionism.
Avi K -“Health, actually it meas “a person does not move a finger”. “Nokef” is related to “lehakif”, which means “to circumvent” in the sense of “to circumvent the world” – to travel around it.”
You don’t know what the word means -Rashi translates it Nogef -bang. But of course you know better than Rashi. Does all the MO yeshivos teach this Gemorrah not acc. to what it means?
“In any case, it is clear that teh Medina is a beracha. The vast majority of the gedolim said so.”
If you would open your eyes and read the Antizionist posts here -you’d know the vast Majority of Gedolim were against the Medina.
We even at one time listed all the Gedolim against the Medina and it vastly outweighed all the Gedolim Pro-Medina. Just because you keep repeating the same lie over and over again, doesn’t make it true. I actually feel bad for guys like you because even when presented with truth – we listed the numbers/names previously -you can’t believe it because you are so brainwashed. You are the classic definition of s/o brainwashed and it seems so many others are just like you when it comes to Zionism.
truthsharer -“One thing is certain, yeshivos need to start teaching history of Zionism.”
Actually most Yeshivos know what Zionism is (Kefira, AZ, etc.). It’s time for us to “share the truth” with the MO!
I am also going to say that people should avoid calling their opponents in a debate “brainwashed.” That is a completely pointless statement. Each side can call the other brainwashed until they are blue in the face, it does not advance the debate one iota.
make your post shorter -73
Health – stub one’s toe, bend a finger – what’s the difference? The point of the Gemara is that even the most minor of movements is the Ratzon of HKBH. It’s a stretch to read that Gemara as saying that only punishments are from Him. The reference to stubbing a toe is more logically read as including something as minor as stubbing a toe rather than exluding non-punishment effects.
Re: your anti-Zionist posts – Have you ever even opened any of the seforim of Rabbonim who supported Zionism? You keep repeating that it’s Kefira and Avoda Zara, but have not given on-point responses when others have stated why they believe otherwise. I agree that there are Shitos that disagree with Zionism, and have learned both sides of the issue before reaching my own conclusions – but I made sure that I had the knowledge to make an informed decission. What about you?
an Israeli Yid
benignuman – Neither does repeating the same lies over and over again that have been proven as lies, eg. “The vast majority of the gedolim said that there should be a Medina.”
anIsraeliYid; thank you for your cogent response to “health” on the gemoro in chulin 7B. It is abslutely clear that this is what the gemoro meant (Rabbi chaninah,actually) from the two pesukim it quotes as supporting this opinion. If you read these pesukkim (tehillim 37-23,Mishlei 20-24) ,it is crystal clear the the gemoro means exactly what you wrote: that nothing, not even the smallest matter, happens without HKBH’s will.
anIsraeliYid -“Health – stub one’s toe, bend a finger – what’s the difference? The point of the Gemara is that even the most minor of movements is the Ratzon of HKBH. It’s a stretch to read that Gemara as saying that only punishments are from Him. The reference to stubbing a toe is more logically read as including something as minor as stubbing a toe rather than exluding non-punishment effects.”
Did e/o here learn in the same MO Yeshiva or is when one Zionist says something e/o comes to his defense? Did you even look up the Gemorrah before you posted your Pshat? If you would have looked it up -the way I said is Pshat is Not in the least debatable. All the Reshonim (the ones I saw) learn the Pshat that it means only some sort of pain. There no reason to pick stubbing your toe if it means any action. The Gemmorah could have written scratching your head or something similar that people do more often. This has nothing to do with everything comes from Hashem. That Gemmorah is elsewhere and says “Everything comes from Heaven except fear of Heaven and some say except cold and hot.”
“Re: your anti-Zionist posts – Have you ever even opened any of the seforim of Rabbonim who supported Zionism? You keep repeating that it’s Kefira and Avoda Zara, but have not given on-point responses when others have stated why they believe otherwise. I agree that there are Shitos that disagree with Zionism, and have learned both sides of the issue before reaching my own conclusions – but I made sure that I had the knowledge to make an informed decission. What about you?”
Listen, I’ve read the Zionist Shittos here umteen times over the years posted by the Zionists here. And I’ve also posted many times -noone who held you can make a Medina before Moshiach from those Gedolim would ever agree to this Medina because these Zionists made the State based on their Kefira of Hashem.
Not just this but the early Zionists were terrorists and committed atrocities against Sefardi Jews. So are you really sure you made an informed decision or perhaps you were brainwashed by the Zionists?
ROB -“anIsraeliYid; thank you for your cogent response to “health” on the gemoro in chulin 7B. It is abslutely clear that this is what the gemoro meant (Rabbi chaninah,actually) from the two pesukim it quotes as supporting this opinion. If you read these pesukkim (tehillim 37-23,Mishlei 20-24) ,it is crystal clear the the gemoro means exactly what you wrote: that nothing, not even the smallest matter, happens without HKBH’s will.”
How about buying an Artscroll Gemorrah and learning from it? Whoever teaches you Gemmorah right now doesn’t know how to learn Poshut Pshat.
Health,
1. You are correctt hat Rashi changes the girsa to “nogef”. It could be that a copyist said it out loud, mispronounced the gimmel (This is very common and the Mishna Berura warns against saying “yitkadal”. Similarly, Rav Soloveichik changes “kedusha” in birkat hamazon to “gedusha”, which is in line with the other adjectives describing Hashem’s hand) and then wrote what he heard himself say. However, I will wave mine and point out that one cannot bank one’s finger without moving it in some manner.
2. Ramban says in his Sefer HaMitzvot that we are obligated in our time to establish a state.Rambam says at the beginning of Hilchot Chanukka that we celebrate it because the Chashmonaim established a state.
3. If you call the early Zionists terrorists rather than freedom-fighters then you are obviously on the side of the British, who betrayed their mandate to establish a Jewish state, and the Arabs who murdered Jews – despite the Faisal-Weizman agreement in which the great-great grandfather of the present ruler of Jordan supported a Jewish state in EY.
4. The word “atrocities” is also a gross misrepresentation to the point of hotzaat shem ra. The fact of the matter is that the young, poor state took in twice the number its veteran citizens and gave them full citizenship immediately. No country does this. In the US one must wait at least five years and the Arab countries continue to keep their “brothers and sisters” who left EY in stateless refugee status.
Mod 73, I can’t try to reply, to 3+ people, all in one “tweet”-sized response, but I will try to do as you demand. Sorry for all this work I caused you to do.
As I’ve posted before, all the emotional sevaras and nice stories are, at best, just that. They cannot ever be mitaher the idolatry of Zionism which plain historical facts have shown to be a massive disaster, Hashem Yishmor.
Rabbi Kook was roundly condemned for his shita on Zionism and statements like the one Avi K explained earlier and the one that the holy Chofetz Chaim replied “Kook Shmook” in response to (the one about how atheist soccer players in E”Y are holier than neviiim), and some gedolim even went further and branded Rabbi Kook an apikores.
Zionists like to delude themselves that those who don’t believe in their idolatry are a “minority”. In fact, when viewed through the gedolim’s eyes, it is Zionists who are the ones who have nothing and nobody to rely on in their fanatical worship of their idol that has cost many thousands of Jewish lives, CH”V.
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
As I said in the beginning of this thread, it’s sad that they continue to believe in Zionism against the Torah and its gedolim.
health: “kol haposel bemumo posel’ – be careful about your gratuitous insults to me- they only reflect upon yourself!
That said- I am sure that the editors of Artscroll will be very happy to see that they are considered “Posek acharon”- the authoritative interpretation on everything. I am old-fashioned and I learn torah from the original.The original gemoro does not deal with punishments at all, but with the way HKBH leads the world,as is clear from ther pesukim that the gemoro mentions. Please also look at a few lines earlier in the same gemoro:”Ein od milvado” and look at the MaHarsho and his explanation.I would also suggest that you daven carefully tomorrow morning and when you say “jehi chevod” (right after “Boruch SheOmar”) slow down when yoy say the pesukim “Rabas machsovos belev ish veatsas hashem hih tokum” and “atzas hashem leolom taamod,machesovos libo lwdor vedor”.Just ponder those for a few seconds and then tell me what they mean.
make your post shorter -73
Edit -“There is a famous picture of a Nazi cutting off a Jewish boy’s Peyos”
It wasn’t Jewish boy’s, but Jewish man’s.
HaKatan,
1. It is not only incorrect that the Chafetz Chaim said “Kook schmook”, in fact, he walked out of the first Aguda convention when someone defamed Rav Kook, whom he held in very high esteem and, in fact, told to enter the rabbinate.It is true that some disagreed strongly with Rav Kook (and see Baba Meyzia 83b regarding what a rtalmid chacham can say and what an am ha’aretz can say)most esteemed him greatly. When Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach was a bachur he was a regular at Rav Kook’s seuda shelisheet and derasha and Rav Kook was his messader kiddushin. Rav Eliashiv called Rav Kook a gaon olam (and married a daughter of Rav Kook’s talmid chaver Rav Arye Levine).Rav Sonnenfeld joined him on his “teshuva tour” of the kibbutzim and moshavim and years later gave him a beracha that he should be Cohen Gadol.
2. As I have posted many times the vast majority of gedolim supported Zionism and certainly supported and continue to support the State.
3. When one of Rav Kook’s opponents saw him walking alone at night he reminded him that the Gemara says (Chullin 91a) that a talmid chacham should not do that because of the mezikin (Tosafot d”h mikan). Rav Kook replied tthat the mezikin of Yerushalayim did not consider him a talmid chacham.
Mod -“make your post shorter -73”
Actually addressing each point was only about a paragraph -would you rather me separate them into different posts like post 1, post 2, post 3, etc.?
Mods -that was a question to you.
HaKatan: After doing a bit of research, it seems obvious that the Kook Shmook story isn’t true. Why do you persist in forwarded lies invented by the Frumteens moderaor? (Google Kook Shmook or look at the Hirhurim article about it if you actually want proof that it isn’t true.)
Avi K: I repeated what I read, not my own halachic ruling.
See my post above. All the stories are nice stories, but if the Satmar Rav called him an apikores, that’s not something to take lightly.
Regardless, as I wrote earlier:
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
As I said in the beginning of this thread, it’s sad that Zionists continue to believe in Zionism against the Torah and its gedolim.
Sam2: In case my other post didn’t make it through, “myfriend” mentioned the story in this thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hashkofos-apikorsos
ROB -There is only one way to learn the Gemmora. I only picked up the artscroll after you challenged me to make sure I was right. You really should use an Artscroll because you are learning the wrong Pshat.
Avi K -“1. You are correctt hat Rashi changes the girsa to “nogef”. However, I will wave mine and point out that one cannot bank one’s finger without moving it in some manner.”
Well thank you for Not arguing on Rashi. It’s a good thing because if YOU argued -then Rashi would have to retract.
And the point has nothing to do with moving only with pain to bring you to Teshuva and you get a Kappara.
Avi K -” 2. Ramban says in his Sefer HaMitzvot that we are obligated in our time to establish a state.”
I’m sure he didn’t mean a State based on Kefira, like today’s Israel.
“Rambam says at the beginning of Hilchot Chanukka that we celebrate it because the Chashmonaim established a state.”
FYI -That wasn’t during Golus. This was during the second Bais Hamikdash. Nowadays we ARE in Golus!
Avi K -“3. If you call the early Zionists terrorists rather than freedom-fighters then you are obviously on the side of the British, who betrayed their mandate to establish a Jewish state, and the Arabs who murdered Jews”
Do you call Arab terrorists -“freedom fighters” also?
Anyways it wasn’t me who called them terrorists -it was the historians who did and I posted their articles here.
I’m not on anyone’s side. Two wrongs don’t make a right!
The British and Arabs only became Antisemites due to the Zionists’ ambitions. Prior to that almost e/o got along. Yes, there were incidents, but they were individualized, not the mass hate there is Now!
health- The sad part is that you are so rigid in all your opinions that you cannot even see that there may be different opinions for many things. I do not, as a rule, even look at the artscroll- as I said, I am old-fashioned and look at the rishonim and plain Pshat. You are wrong in your Pshat and I showed you why. BTW- do you think that there cannot be other Peshotim than Rashi? Did you ever learn Tosfos?
Avi K -“4. The word “atrocities” is also a gross misrepresentation to the point of hotzaat shem ra.”
No, actually forcing s/o to abandon their religion and kidnapping hundreds of babies, if not thousands, are Atrocities. How about actually reading my posts before you respond to me?
There are famous pictures of Nazis cutting off the Peyos of Jews. These became famous because the world, not just the Jews, consider this an Atrocity! The Zionists did the same thing -even though there are no pics.
“The fact of the matter is that the young, poor state took in twice the number its veteran citizens and gave them full citizenship immediately.”
They took in as many as possible to grow the State, but they only wanted Non-religious Jews!
HaKatan, it is well known that some rabbanim speak in exaggerated language. Once the Satmar rebbe was upset because Rav Aharon Kotler called someone an am ha’aretz. He calmed down when someone told him “the rav says ‘am ha’aretz like the rebbe says ‘apikorus'”.
Health, you are simply falsifying history.
1.There was no stealing of babies or forcing people to abandon religion. I personally know someone whjo came from Jerba at that time and he and his family went to a religious moshav.
2.The state took in EVERYBODY
3. No, the Arabs are terrorists. They wantonly attack innocent civilians. And besides, they are wrong. This is not their land.
As I said in the beginning of this thread, it’s sad that Zionists continue to believe in Zionism against the Torah and its gedolim.
This is not fractionally as reprehensible as anyone who went against the Gedolim’s Pesak to vote at Israeli Elections, and told his followers to ignore this Pesak.
This is far sadder.
BTW:- I Daven at a very right wing Shoule, where the Rov once physically expelled a Naturei Karta person, but has never expelled anyone who observed Yom ha’Atzmaut or/& Yom Yerusholayim.
ROB -“health- The sad part is that you are so rigid in all your opinions that you cannot even see that there may be different opinions for many things.”
This is like the pot calling the kettle black. Of course I’m rigid because I am right. I said I looked in a few Rishonim and they learn like me. But why are you so rigid? Do you even have one Rishon that says Pshat like you?
“I do not, as a rule, even look at the artscroll- as I said, I am old-fashioned and look at the rishonim and plain Pshat.”
So What?
“You are wrong in your Pshat and I showed you why. BTW- do you think that there cannot be other Peshotim than Rashi? Did you ever learn Tosfos?”
Quote the Rishon who learns like you and I’ll look it up. I really doubt you have one.
Avi K -“Health, you are simply falsifying history.
1.There was no stealing of babies or forcing people to abandon religion. I personally know someone whjo came from Jerba at that time and he and his family went to a religious moshav.”
I’m not falsifying anything. It’s Not my fault that you’re in major denial! I quoted peoples’ testimonies – do you have any Proof that they are false? Just saying they are false – doesn’t mean that they actually are! And what kind of proof is there by just one guy who didn’t even end up in the places I was talking about?
“2.The state took in EVERYBODY”
I didn’t say “took”, I said they only Wanted Non-religious.
“3. No, the Arabs are terrorists. They wantonly attack innocent civilians. And besides, they are wrong. This is not their land.”
And so were the early Zionists who killed innocent civilians.
And it’s not the Jews land yet either – until Hashem gives it back to us.
147, you are absolutely correct. Those who do not vote have only themselves to blame. Rav Kook and the Imrei Emmet warned about this. The pain of those things which need fixing is to get them to do teshuva on being grabbed by the Sin of the Spies (this is discussed by Rabbi Hillel Rivlin in the name of the Gra in “Kol HaTor” and Rav Teichtal in “Em HaBanim Semeicha” – so apparently the Satan in fact caused and continues to cause anti-Zionism and opposition to the State).
“Torah Yid” quoted this Kook Shmook story, in a different thread, and added more details:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rav-elyashev-bans-nachal-chareidi/page/7
“The Rosh Yeshiva of YU, HaRav Yeruchem Gorelick ZT’L, personally was present and directly heard from the Chofetz Chaim’s own mouth say Kook Shmook derogatorily. He was at the CC with his father who was a talmid of the CC. And Rav Gorelick repeated this story publicly frequently. (Including at the Yeshiva of South Fallsburg, where his son was Rosh Yeshiva.) As did The Rov ZT’L (Rav Berel Soloveitchik ZT’L) relate this story publicly.”
So how do you know the Kook Shmook story is a lie? Surely this could easily be verified, given the above names.
But it doesn’t matter, because there’s plenty more that “religious Zionism” can’t answer.
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
And other gedolim besides the Satmar Rov forbade learning from Rabbi Kook’s seforim. So when the Satmar Rov called him an apikores, how are you so sure he was exaggerating? And how much of an “exaggeration” was it? Come on.
Again, it is clear that Zionism in any form is against the Torah; and its bloody history has proven too well that it was very foolish and deadly to violate the Oaths, Hashem Yishmor.
147, Zionists are known to have unusual priorities, so your statement fits right in.
You are saying that it is far more reprehensible and sadder to follow their own Rav in not voting in Israel than it is to worship Avoda Zara by believing in Zionism.
I would believe that this is Zionism if you say it is.
Avi K -“HaKatan,
1. It is not only incorrect that the Chafetz Chaim said “Kook schmook””
Avi -this was posted a year ago to You:
“Tora Yid
The Rosh Yeshiva of YU, HaRav Yeruchem Gorelick ZT’L, personally was present and directly heard from the Chofetz Chaim’s own mouth say Kook Shmook derogatorily. He was at the CC with his father who was a talmid of the CC. And Rav Gorelick repeated this story publicly frequently. (Including at the Yeshiva of South Fallsburg, where his son was Rosh Yeshiva.) As did The Rov ZT’L (Rav Berel Soloveitchik ZT’L) relate this story publicly.”
Is it you forgot the post or did you never read it or do you think e/o else forgot the post and you can now brainwash more people with your Zionist propaganda? One thing I give you credit for – you never, ever change your mind, no matter how much truth by proof that has been presented to you about the Zionists!
It is Erev Shabbos. Let the Cohanim rest in peace.
It is this new religion of Anti-Zionism which creates a thick cloud causing otherwise G-d fearing Jews to be unable to see much of the positive that G-d has done for the Jewish people in the last 65 years.
Health, here is what I posted in reply:
Member
Rav Aharon HaKohen
Tel Aviv, Eretz Yisrael
[This is because] [the Rav] [the proper way] [that is] [, the Chafetz Chaim,] and he would turn his eyes with contempt from any posters [disparaging Rav Kook -ed]).
[words which] [This is because] [And this is especially true regarding] this brilliant and pious [rav] [on this matter] and we must go out and rebuke this humiliation of the Torah, and join ourselves to the protest and great anger of the rabbis and sages of the Holy Land and the exile regarding these words of villainy. [Thus] we should not see [that which is] Holy destroyed, G-d Forbid.And may Hashem, may His Name be Blessed, remove the disgrace from the children of Israel and raise the honor of our Holy Torah. These are the words [of one] who writes with a wounded and agitated heart regarding the honor of our holy Torah which is [being] given over to disgrace.
Aharon HaKohen
If you remember, there was a suggestion that the CC said “Kook Shmook, it was Book”. It could also be that someone was talking about cooking so the CC said “kuch shmooch”.Or that he was denying that Rav Kook said something.
josh31-Well said and thank you.
health- even rashi does not learn like you. look at the possuk from which this maamar is drawn and look at the meforshim on the possuk.BTW- do you say the pesukin in “jehi chevod’ every day?
Health-
Since you’re frum, I assume you believe in the concepts of hashgachah pratis and klalis. Why do you throw these inyanim out the window in the case of Israel. Refusing to see Hashem, and his nissim and niflaos in connection to shuvas Tzion is not just being ungrateful, it’s mamesh kefira b’ikar.
The only mekor anti-zionists have on their side is the Gemara in kesuboa and the gimmel shevuos. If this is such a chashuveh Sugya, why are the gimmel shevuos not brought down in Halacha, in the Mishnah Torah, Rif, or Shulchan aruch?
rationalfrummie: your posting is eloquent, but then you are “rational” !! Many have tried to say the same on these pages fro a long time…..only time will help!
HaKatan: That is another Joseph alias, once again lifting unsourced lies directly from the Frumteens moderator.
Interesting…
On the other thread (if a golem is possible), there were a number of posters who quoted some source that not everything is to be taken literally. So why not apply it to the issue at hand. If one does not have to believe a piece of Gemarah, I feel no need to believe what a bunch of irreligious bareheaded want me to think. Perhaps there was no independence. Maybe the whole ‘Medinat Israel’ is also a dream, some sort of vision. Oh.. those brave soldiers you saw, they were really Mitzvohs Yidden in somwwhere were performing. The planes, sure – that was the Tehillim of a kinus in Bais Yaakov. It only appeared as planes. Iron Dome?!? A fable, of course there’s no such thing. That’s a typical Yeshiva seder, at the ready. Yes, to some it looks like some sort of anti-missile apparatus.
rationalfrummie:
There are other mekoros besides the gemara in Kesubos, but that’s not the point. And the gimmel shevuos are brought down lihalacha in various other places.
But that’s besides the point.
The gemara in kesubos says something. Your kushya is how to apply hashgacha pratis and klalis to the State of Israel and Zionism.
You could ask the same thing on how Hashem allowed Klal Yisrael to miscalculate about the 40 days and make the egel (and murder Chur, a gadol HaDor, in the process). Where was Hashem’s hashgacha? There are plenty of other things one can ask about.
With Zionism, our gedolim told us that Hashem allowed the Satan to put Klal Yisrael to an enormous test. This is crystal clear, in hindsight. Unfortunately, like the Baal, Zionism has fooled and propagandized many people into being pocheis al shitai haSiifim of Torah and, lihavdil, Zionism.
There are other parts to the answer like bechira and much more.
But, regardless, how can you ignore a bifeirush gemara and so much more because of what you (mistakenly) believe to be “nissim and niflaos” and chasadim? Yeshu did nissim, too. The gemara in A”Z says that people were healed in a Church. Nissim do not prove the correctness of anything. It is the Zionists who refuse to see Hashem’s true workings.
Would you have preferred that Hashem had taken more blood during their bloody war of independence to prove that the Zionists were wrong? B”H, Hashem spared His people. Why use that against Him?
The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Religious Zionism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara.
That sounds pretty rational and frum to me.
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